Edge Hogging completely destroys tether recovery characters*EDITED*

[Blue sHell]

EDIT: This is a big flaw in these characters, but I've been reading through this thread and people are already vouching some characters unuseable because of it. That's not the case. MOST OF THE TIME, these characters are only effected by this at higher percentages, but against a good edgehogging character(Jiggly for example) they'd have a big problem. But really overall Olimar has INSANE range for such a little guy. With most pikmin his foward and down smash extend further than Marth's sword. He's crazy.

It's all about off the edge mindgames. FowardAir an approaching edgegaurder trying to knock you back while your off the stage. Air dodge. Switch it up.

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Me and my friends yesterday during a match realized that if an opponent ever grabs onto the ledge while someone like Olimar is approching to recover, since his UpB is an auto sweetspot to the ledge what will end up happening is that he'll do is UpB completely upward as if there were no ledge nearby.

Zero Suit still has her DownB extra jump so its not AS bad for her, but Olimar and Ivysaur, I'm sorry to say could be killed at less than 50% from a backthrow at times because of this.


EDIT: Video found depicting what I'm talking about.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8hoWZlXK_gg

Keep in mind that Marth is actually fighting this Ivysaur and not going for this strategy at the start of every stock. So really this match could of been a bit shorter.

Double EDIT: If the vid doesn't convince you enough, just please take my word for it.

If you're on the ledge regardless of invincible frames, tethers won't sweetspot.

 

[Aiko]

REally? :o I've been watching a number of matches on youtube and i've wondered why people don't edgehog, since sweetspotting is so easy?

 

[Generic Dude]

what a shame

 

[F@lc0-san]

What about Link Samus and Toon Link? Can they still shoot their "chain" into the middle of a level?

 

[Jinx]

My roommate noticed this as well a day or 2 ago.

 

[SuperLink9]

Well, I guess that takes points off Olimar and ZSS...

But yeah, like F@lco asked, can Link and Samus chain to the edge without sweet-spotting?

Would sure be a total screw over if they automatically sweet-spotted...

 

[Japanese Monk]

Sakurai couldnt think about that? Whos testing the game?! Seriously..... playing Olimar is going to be hard.....

 

[TK Wolf]

This may sound stupid, but how does a CPU (as Olimar, Ivy, etc) react to this? This sounds like something that would be REALLY hard for the developers not to notice while playtesting.

The reason I ask for the CPU's reaction is because maybe there is some way to get around it that is "well known" to the AI but not to us? I know it's a bit of a longshot, but probably worth trying.

 

[red stone]

this and other reasons are why i never liked the auto sweetspots in the first place. they try to make the game noob friendly and instead they make 2 characters nearly unplayable.

 

[DragonBlade]

I actually thought something like this may happen when I heard about auto tether recovery back in the dojo days. Making it easier is not an issue by itself, but you you remove functionality also, its bound to cause problems. Hopefully, we'll find a way to direct the tethers manually again so these characters can recover.

 

[SuperLink9]

I don't know what could be done... This is broken. It's dangerous. It's a little risky. You can't ban edgehopping from tournaments, because you can't differ between someone who grabs an edge to recover and causes another player to fall and lose. Olimar, Ivysaur and ZSS are seriously handicapped already. Perhaps they make up for it in play, although I can't imagine they're much more powerful than anyone else...

How did they not notice this?

 

[Crossjeremiah]

Well. you can kind of edge hog. when there in the air in the edge, fast fall and edge hog and hit them , knock them out of bounce or hit them so they think they can recover then edge hog.

sheik is an amazing edger....

 

[red stone]

olimar seemed really cool too. oh well, mark one up for bottom teir, based on something dumb that could have been avoided too.

 

[SuperLink9]

NOOOOOOO!!! He was gonna be my main!

Argh! >.< and he seemed so good otherwise...

 

[Losnar]

Wow, glad i'm not using tether chars.

 

[A New Challenger]

Yeah, I had been interested in Olimar but he rather sucks anyway. And Ivysaur sucks loud. So... not much at stake, here.

 

[SuperLink9]

And ZSS was gonna be one of my mains too...

Ultimate lameness. Guess I may just have to stick with Samus, Sonic or Toon Link afterall.

 

[Oh Gibdo]

Try it with Link please!
I must know if he's affected!

 

[Superstarmario]

Link and Samus grapples only work on the edge now, not the middle anymore, so I assume it works on them too.

 

[Blue sHell]

What about Link Samus and Toon Link? Can they still shoot their "chain" into the middle of a level?

You could never shoot into the middle of the level anymore.

And because of the autosweetspot mechanic of tether recoveries now, if you tether as Toon/normal link or Samus and someone is edgehogging, your tether will just come out as if you did it nowhere near the edge. You could hit the opponent with your tether but um...you'll still plummet to your death.

It's almost like the game doesn't agknowledge that ledge as a ledge anymore because someone is already on it.

Just thank god they still have their normal recoveries.

 

[red stone]

olimar was a real loss. random appearances throughout tournaments would have spiced things up. ivysaur sucks anyways, so it's no loss as there are 2 others you can pick from. not sure about zss....well i guess you can't use zss now to uh ...distract the other player

 

[TastelessRamen]

From what I have played this does not make a huge difference. Most of the time people recover from over the ledge, not under it. And in case you were wondering, ZSS and Olimar both seem remarkably strong when compared with other characters.

Also, ZSS and Olimar both have fbs tha can harass the ledge while recovering, freeing the ledge for their tether.

This technique is good, and useful but far from broken and does NOT make tether characters unsalvagable, you are thinking in melee terms, this is not melee.

Edit: ZSS fb is actually a tether too, if I remember correctly, so she may not be able to harass the ledge.

 

[SuperLink9]

ARGH.

Screw lack of Ridley/Krystal. Brawl is RUINED. RUUUUIIIINNNNEEEEDDDD.

Sakurai: You must use Tether Recovery!

Lex Luther: WROOOOOONG!!!

 

[Blue sHell]

You guys realize Zero Suit samus's Down B is a third jump right... lol...

It's not SOO bad for her. But Ivysaur and Olimar...yea its bad.

 

[SuperLink9]

I guess that makes it a little better. How good is her DownB?

And... Olimar is doomed. ****.

 

[red stone]

actually, for some reason, i feel like olimar players will find some cheap a$$ move with the pikmin that will become the new wobble. just a feeling though. hopefully, that will be incentive enough to play with them

 

[Blue sHell]

From what I have played this does not make a huge difference. Most of the time people recover from over the ledge, not under it. And in case you were wondering, ZSS and Olimar both seem remarkably strong when compared with other characters.

Also, ZSS and Olimar both have fbs tha can harass the ledge while recovering, freeing the ledge for their tether.

This technique is good, and useful but far from broken and does NOT make tether characters unsalvagable, you are thinking in melee terms, this is not melee.

Edit: ZSS fb is actually a tether too, if I remember correctly, so she may not be able to harass the ledge.

Tasteless, you have to realize that all I'm saying is that because of this Ivy and Olimar's UpBs are NOTHING. They shoot directly upwards if someone is edgehogging. So all it dumbs down to is that the only recovery Olimar and Ivy have are their double jumps.(which both of theirs aren't spectacular).

I'm not kidding when I say that we tried to play Olimar and Ivysaur on a serious level and see if they could work their way through this hinderence, but really, only having a double jump as a recovery(if someone edgehogs) makes you a Yoshi with a DoubleJump minus a billion.

You try to imagine how hard that is for them. Especially because now just running off the edge of the field leads into edgehog.

 

[TastelessRamen]

I guess that makes it a little better. How good is her DownB?

And... Olimar is doomed. ****.

Olimar doomed? Have you seen his uair? ^^,

 

[Superstarmario]

It's called Pikmin throw --> Run.

 

[TastelessRamen]

I have to admit I am only using my experience with the game and theory-smash to evaluate this. Tomorrow I will try out the actual utility of what you're saying for myself, though.

But I think it should be noted that losing your up-b is not really *such* a big deal. You only lose if if the other person has a chance to ledge hog you, and if you're playing brawl you must've noticed that most of the time recovery is done from well over the stage. Up-bs are used much less often than they were in melee.

As I said, I will check this out more carefully tomorrow, but what is to stop Olimar from fbing a couple of his pikmin at the ledgehogger before he upbs? roll ledge guarde doesn't work any more at all, and Olimars up b is also VERY powerful when it connects with another player.

 

[joepinion]

Alright, I'm no pro, so I need some things clarified about edgehogging here.

Doesn't edgehogging last for just a certain amount of frames while landing or getting off? Or can you just hang out on the ledge for a few seconds without letting anyone else use it?

If it is the first, which I thought it was (perhaps it's changed in Brawl), then I don't see how this is a big deal, as the auto-tether recovery allows you a wider span of frames to be able use the recovery.

Please inform me where I am wrong here.

Either way, I do think the new player friendly floatiness will take away from this problem; it seems much rarer (unfortunately) that someone needs to use mad skills to barely get back enough to grab the ledge.

 

[kilroy]

the problem with using Olimar's FB to harass the edgehog is that, well, it costs Pikmin, thus shortening your tether.

i'm a tad concerned for olimar right now. i hope there's some way around this, but i can't think of one. sounds like a massive oversight.

i'll try to remain optimistic though. perhaps a skilled enough player could navigate in the air and sacrifice one or two Pikmin to clear the edge and still have enough tether for recovery.

uh, dunno about ivysaur though. =/ bullet seed -> tether?

 

[TastelessRamen]

Alright, I'm no pro, so I need some things clarified about edgehogging here.

Doesn't edgehogging last for just a certain amount of frames while landing or getting off? Or can you just hang out on the ledge for a few seconds without letting anyone else use it?

If it is the first, which I thought it was (perhaps it's changed in Brawl), then I don't see how this is a big deal, as the auto-tether recovery allows you a wider span of frames to be able use the recovery.

Please inform me where I am wrong here.

Either way, I do think the new player friendly floatiness will take away from this problem; it seems much rarer (unfortunately) that someone needs to use mad skills to barely get back enough to grab the ledge.

Essentially, you are right. However Blue Shell is saying that tether recoveries do not target the ledge correctly when someone is ledge hogging. If true (And I have no reason to doubt Shells' honesty) this means that unless tetherers harass the ledge before they up b, they are dead.

 

[joepinion]

I know that the topic creator is also referencing just throwing someone barely off and hitting them back and grabbing the edge... but wouldn't you have to be fairly unskilled to NEED your up-b when barely being knocked off? That seems like a situation worth avoiding. It's just like needing to avoid your second jump when you're in a dangerous position with Yoshi.

 

[TastelessRamen]

I ave to be honest here, from my play so far, I do not think this will be a big issue between skilled players. However, if it I am wrong and it is as bad as Blue Shell says, I will eat my words tomorrow; after I have checked for myself.

 

[DRaGZ]

I think edge hogging is totally fine.

Specifically for Olimar, I think it balances out his sheer damage-racking capabilities and pretty nasty smash attacks. If he had great recovery too, he'd be such an unstoppable beast. I mean, Falco and Captain Falcon had very poor recovery in Melee, but they were very highly tiered.

 

[joepinion]

So are you saying that at any point when someone is hanging on the edge, regardless of edge-hogging frames, the tether does not target the sweet spot?

If so, that's bogus, but yet it seems to be far from making Olimar useless.

 

[Blue sHell]

My friend just sent me a link to a video that shows exactly what I'm talking about.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8hoWZlXK_gg

I'll add it to the main topic.

Ivysaur dies everytime the same way. But unlike me and my friends that Marth doesn't purposely try to barely knock the tether'er out of the field everytime and hit him once or twice then edgehog for the easy kill.

 

[TastelessRamen]

So are you saying that at any point when someone is hanging on the edge, regardless of edge-hogging frames, the tether does not target the sweet spot?

If so, that's bogus, but yet it seems to be far from making Olimar useless.

I have not tested it myself, but this seems to be what Shell is saying. And after using Olimar a bit, I have to agree with you. He is crazy strong, has great range, and can DoT.

As someone already said, Falcos recovery in melee was complete garbage and he still ended up being rated very highly in the end.

Let's give the game some time before we decide what/who is op, and what/who is not.

 

[SenorPresidente]

My friend just sent me a link to a video that shows exactly what I'm talking about.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8hoWZlXK_gg

I'll add it to the main topic.

Ivysaur dies everytime the same way. But unlike me and my friends that Marth doesn't purposely try to barely knock the tether'er out of the field everytime and hit him once or twice then edgehog for the easy kill.

Wow i gotta say that really makes me question if i should main poke trainer. And lucas being my back up also makes me question him too but i guess he has pk thunder.