Dsmash theory/discovery!

[ChivalRuse]

So I was watching the crew battle from Revival of Melee yesterday ... Eventually M2K took the floor, and he obviously chose Marth, because his Marth absolutely wrecks crews. Anyway, at one point, when he was playing PC on Yoshi's, he dsmashes. Now, normally, this wouldn't be a big deal. But it was what DJ and Alukard said that got me thinking.

DJ: "He gets a random dsmash of the love".
Alu: "Never random with him. I bet you it was a shine precision for it."
DJ: "Yeah. I bet you. Frame perfect dsmash."
Alu: "Ah it's five frames; that's why."

PC proceeds to wrap up M2K's run, but I started thinking about some of the overlooked advantages of dsmash.

1. Marth's fastest smash attack.
2. Can be set up extremely well with a CC. And, unlike dtilt, it can not be CCC'ed back, generally.
3. Goes under shields easily!
******** 4. Marth CANNOT be shield grabbed when dsmashing. GO TEST IT OUT. IT'S CRAZY.

I tested this pretty thoroughly, and there is a small catch to this, though: After Marth's dsmash stales a bit (after you HIT your opponent three times or more with a dsmash), for some STRANGE reason, you CAN get shield grabbed when dsmashing. But only if the move has staled. It's kind of interesting.

Theories on why this works:

1. Marth crouches down in the dsmash animation, so he dodges any grabs while in this stance. This doesn't really explain why the effect wears off by staling.
So, here's my support theory:
2. Marth's dsmash has significantly more shield stun/shield pushout when it is unstaled or fresh. Therefore, the fact that Marth's dsmash pushes your opponent shield away, AND the fact that he is in a ducking animation, combine to make him unshieldgrabbable.

Oh, and this technique works in Marth dittos, for anybody wondering. I know because my roommate plays Marth and, for some weird reason, CC dsmashes a ton. So I would always try to shield grab him. But I quickly realized that sometimes my grab would whiff right over his head!

Test this out. It's so cool!!!

 

[Dark Sonic]

******** 4. Marth CANNOT be shield grabbed when dsmashing. GO TEST IT OUT. IT'S CRAZY.

I've tested this multiple times and it's simply untrue. Even if you've spaced the d-smash, all they have to do is wavedash out of shield and grab you. If you do it right on top of them to get both hits on their shield, they can just grab you in the ending lag <_<.

********
I tested this pretty thoroughly, and there is a small catch to this, though: After Marth's dsmash stales a bit (after you HIT your opponent three times or more with a dsmash), for some STRANGE reason, you CAN get shield grabbed when dsmashing. But only if the move has staled. It's kind of interesting.

Simple explination. Stale moves cause less damage. Damage is a partial factor in determining shield pushback and shield stun.

********
1. Marth crouches down in the dsmash animation, so he dodges any grabs while in this stance. This doesn't really explain why the effect wears off by staling.
So, here's my support theory:
2. Marth's dsmash has significantly more shield stun/shield pushout when it is unstaled or fresh. Therefore, the fact that Marth's dsmash pushes your opponent shield away, AND the fact that he is in a ducking animation, combine to make him unshieldgrabbable.

Learn to wavedash OoS. He's not dodging the grab, they've just been pushed out of grab range. It has more than enough lag to allow them to still punish OoS.

********
Oh, and this technique works in Marth dittos, for anybody wondering. I know because my roommate plays Marth and, for some weird reason, CC dsmashes a ton. So I would always try to shield grab him. But I quickly realized that sometimes my grab would whiff right over his head!

Marth is tall and his standing grab doesn't reach low <_<. Wavedash out and grab when the d-smashing Marth is in ending lag (not during the second swing, but after it)



Sorry to burst your bubble, but Marth's d-smash is VERY punishable on whiff or block. It's advantages are speed, angle (getting under shields), and duration (punishes spotdodges if you're on top of them). Safety is not one of them <_<

 

[CaptainCrunch]

**** Dark Sonic just 4 stocked this kid.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Learn to wavedash OoS. He's not dodging the grab, they've just been pushed out of grab range. It has more than enough lag to allow them to still punish OoS.

I didn't mean to imply that a dsmash is unpunishable. What I said is that you can't shield grab it (i.e., hold L or R and then press A), specifically, to grab directly out of your shield. Sure, wavedash > anything out of shield works just fine.

I've tested this multiple times and it's simply untrue. Even if you've spaced the d-smash, all they have to do is wavedash out of shield and grab you. If you do it right on top of them to get both hits on their shield, they can just grab you in the ending lag <_<.

You don't even have to space it. Regardless of how close you are, even if you are mashed up against the shield, the shield push sends them far enough away to not be able to directly shield grab you.

Marth is tall and his standing grab doesn't reach low <_<. Wavedash out and grab when the d-smashing Marth is in ending lag (not during the second swing, but after it)

It doesn't matter how tall the character is. The reason that I used Marth as an example is because he has better grab range than most characters, and I wanted to affirm that even with his huge reach he can't immediately shield grab a dsmash.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Marth's d-smash is VERY punishable on whiff or block. It's advantages are speed, angle (getting under shields), and duration (punishes spotdodges if you're on top of them). Safety is not one of them <_<

I didn't mean to say that it was entirely safe. I just wanted to throw this idea out there because sometimes people instinctively shield grab everything, and the first couple of times this little technique can surprise them.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ruse, nobody will directly shield grab you out of it. they will wavedash and grab or fsmash or rest you.

listen to dark sonic, he knows more. its okay to be wrong, and its good to be creative, this was just not the brilliant thing you thought it was before.

 

[Cosmo!]

dsmash is a decent move : )

upB is better at high% though

 

[pockyD]

did you test if link can shield grab it?

 

[Dark Sonic]

what I'm basically saying is....don't expect to go unpunished if an opponent blocks this <_<. And technically you do have to space it, because if you happen to be on top of them (but not close enough to get the second swing to hit their shield), then they CAN shieldgrab you immediately. They'd probably just wavedash out of shield and smash though <_<.

I use d-smash quite a bit (more than I should), and I'm certain that it really has no safety whatsoever. It's an all or nothing move.

Your first three points are good though. Maybe you should stress those instead? A 5 frame attack with the power of Fox's upsmash at the tip, a ridiculously low trajectory at the hilt, and the horizontal coverage of f-smash on each side of you is worth exploring even if you do take heavy punishment for missing.

 

[ChivalRuse]

what I'm basically saying is....don't expect to go unpunished if an opponent blocks this <_<. And technically you do have to space it, because if you happen to be on top of them (but not close enough to get the second swing to hit their shield), then they CAN shieldgrab you immediately. They'd probably just wavedash out of shield and smash though <_<.

I use d-smash quite a bit (more than I should), and I'm certain that it really has no safety whatsoever. It's an all or nothing move.

Your first three points are good though. Maybe you should stress those instead? A 5 frame attack with the power of Fox's upsmash at the tip, a ridiculously low trajectory at the hilt, and the horizontal coverage of f-smash on each side of you is worth exploring even if you do take heavy punishment for missing.

Yea, I have to agree, actually. I tested it out more today, and dsmash really isn't that difficult to shield grab with correct timing (for most characters).

But, yea, I do think it's underrated. Anyway, thanks for discussing.

 

[Eggm]

M2k purposley smash DI's in his shield to get grabs on things just like this. Not sure how many players are that aware of everything tho. But vses some one like m2k your best off spacing it so at least he can't shield grab even with shield smash DI and has a chance to at least mess up his WD OOS.

 

[Alukard]

name searched this ... ^_^

btw ... WD into stage with marth and dsmash is amazing ... try it out randomly its pretty good

 

[TresChikon]

A 5 frame attack with the power of Fox's upsmash at the tip.

No way!! Are you serious???

M2k purposley smash DI's in his shield to get grabs on things just like this. Not sure how many players are that aware of everything tho. But vses some one like m2k your best off spacing it so at least he can't shield grab even with shield smash DI and has a chance to at least mess up his WD OOS.

You can SDI in the shield?!

 

[skrach8]

good for quick getaway move, to make space of course because it can poke shields well.

extremely strong if tipped, kills fox at 96-98% tipped on fd.

and already stated it is and awesome move after crouch cancel.

 

[Dark Sonic]

No way!! Are you serious???



You can SDI in the shield?!

Yes and yes.


Jigglypuff just rested? Afraid shieldbreaker won't manage to kill them (or they'll tech a wall or something)? Fully charged downsmash kills her at 40% (no DI)

And SDIing in the shield is mad sexy. I don't normally go for it though (if you do it too early you roll....which is bad)

 

[Nø Ca$h]

its like reverse up out of shield...only out of cc...
dsmash is actually not that bad cause its downward hitboxes.