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Dreamland Only Apex Discussion

Mr Bushido

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Messages
550
Location
Dale Star
N.B. Hyrule will not be mentioned in this post and it is useless to discuss it in this thread.
N.B.B. don't ****ing vote before reading the entire post

(Current ruleset is 5 stocks, DL neutral, PC and CJ as counterpicks)

Many people have changed their minds about the Dreamland-only debate, after seeing how shallow the counterarguments to leave counterpicks are. This thread is for those people to re-cast their vote. Here is why YOU want a DL-only ruleset:

1. :colorful::colorful::colorful:DREAMLAND IS THE MOST BALANCED STAGE:colorful::colorful::colorful:
(counterargument to all stages having hazardous elements, including DL)

Dreamland consists of a main stage, with two side platforms and a higher top platform. Its only asymmetrical properties are its slightly higher right side platform (negligeable) and fact that the wind cannot push off a player off the right ledge (NOT pertinent).

The only stage hazard is the wind, and it can be predicted very easily: (credit to star ****)

"It's pretty simple. If players on one side of the stage > players on the other side when the tree decides to start blowing, the tree turns to blow on that side. If players on one side = players on other side, it blows in the direction it's already facing. This includes 0 = 0, as the tree does not detect players in the air, hanging on the edge, or on the top platform. The tree starts the game facing right."
Other stages are asymmetrical, their stage hazards are much harder to predict and more gamebreaking:

PEACH'S CASTLE:
- Horizontal moving platform and bumper create asymmetry
- Bumper and side triangular prisms can allow players to survive a strong attack like a rest or giant punch
- Both bumpers and the triangular prisms are hard to keep track of, especially when on the lower part of the stage
- No ledges = every character's recovery is nerfed. low tiers' recoveries are nerfed drastically (i.e. Ness and DK)

CONGO JUNGLE:
- Rotating platforms create asymmetry
- Barrel is a stage hazard that more often than not rewards players based on luck rather than skill
- Stage is dark and dark palettes cannot be used. Players who use dark palettes are forced to switch and may be psychologically nerfed
- Barrel can be kept tracked of by observing the movement of the rotating platforms; when the rotating platforms are horizontally aligned, the barrel is at either end of the stage; when they are vertically aligned, the barrel is at the center of the stage. The first scenario creates ambiguity because there is no way to know which of the two sides the barrel is located.

This is why YOU want a symmetrical stage:
Player A and player B have very similar levels of fighting potential

Player A = lvl 50 fighting potential
Player B = lvl 55 fighting potential

Fighting on even grounds, Player B beats player A.

Player A gets an advantage by fighting on a specific part of the stage and by doing so he gains 10 levels of fighting potential. Relatively this is equivalent to saying: "Player B gets an advantage by fighting on any other part of the map"

By fighting on grounds that benefit player A, player A beats Player B. Fighting on any other grounds benefits player B as he would beat player A.

It makes sense that player A would only want to fight on the part of the stage that increases his potential and never leave it. It also makes sense that player B wouldn't want to approach player A in the area that benefits player A. This creates a stalemate that is neither player's fault as neither player should be forced to approach the other player at a disadvantage and you cannot arbitrarily say that one player should have more precedence in approaching over the other player.
2. :colorful::colorful::colorful: LOW TIERS ARE BETTER ON DREAMLAND :colorful::colorful::colorful:
(counterargument to having more stage variety with PC/CJ)

Prioritizing stage variety over character variety is NOT something you want. Low tiers (and all characters actually) are better on Dreamland.

Here are some techniques many low tiers rely upon, that they cannot use as effectively on other stages:

*Samus::samus64:
-can use upB to escape pressure and land on platform / ledge cancel
- can platform tech chase with DAir on all platforms
- can use bomb to edgeguard and grab the ledge (which cannot be done on PC due to the lack of ledges nor on CJ due to the semi-soft stage, barrel also reduces effectiveness)

*Luigi::luigi64:
-perfect land upB from ground to top platform
-platforms can be used to regain jumps and continue combos
-easier edge DI'ing (no ledges on PC + no DI'able ground/wall)

*Link: (arguably better on PC but not worth the trouble) :link64:
-perfect land on side platforms with double jump
-can ledge cancel upB on platforms

*Ness::ness64: (he sucks ass EVERYWHERE, especially stages that aren't Dreamland)
-can platform techchase with dair
-can sweetspot ledges with much more ease (can't even grab a ledge on PC)

*DK::dk64:
-can upair combo with side platforms
-upB to escape pressure is harder to punish thanks to platforms and ledges

*Jigglypuff :jigglypuff64:(not really a low tier but HEY)
-rest kills are more likely due to no bumper / PC triangles
-platforms can be used to regain jumps and continue combos.

now VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ty.

P.S. you can only vote for one option :denzel:

bonus: kerokeroppi changing his mind
gentleman

i'd like to make a public statement

i've been thinking long and hard about this all day

the truth is that i've been playing a LOT of peaches and congo recently

i thoroughly enjoy both of those stages and like the way i perform on them

not only with my high tiers, but with some of my mid and low tiers as well

i really do think this idea that pika and kirby are the only playable characters on peaches and congo is an absurd and ignorant one

and i think that with a little more practice, everybody would enjoy those stages a bit more

the only characters that truly suffer on peaches and congo are characters that nobody really plays anyway

so why should we ban 2/3 of the legal stages for character mains that don't exist?

we should be focusing on the players that do exist

they're the ones that matter

but then i thought about cobr

and firo

and all of these other players that use low tier characters in tournament

do they not matter?

they've committed hundreds of hours into mastering a character that can easily be counter picked to and beaten at peaches and congo

is that right?

like i said, there aren't a lot of these players

and that's a damn shame

but i understand why now

it is because we've allowed a ruleset that punishes these players, that more of these players do not exist

i'm not saying that the banning of peaches and congo will bring in this influx of dk, ness, samus, and link mains

and whatever changes we do see will certainly not happen over night

but there's no denying that players would be more encouraged to play these characters in a DL only ruleset

a ruleset where they can't be easily counter picked

a ruleset where everybody gets to play on a stage that's good for them

this game is extremely balanced

we shouldn't be cutting anybody out

if every character got pushed to their absolute limits on a good and balanced stage like DL

i really think that the metagame would transform into something truly beautiful

i see now that a DL only ruleset is a huge step in the right direction for this game's future

it is for this reason that i am officially changing my stance from anti DL only to pro DL only

that is all

pls feel free to contact me with questions and concerns

thank you

- kero the great

#adreamlandcumtrue
 
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kys

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
660
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World Traveler
Recoveries are incredibly more balanced on CJ than on DL. I posted this a long time ago, but the lack of ledge di doesn't really hurt recoveries. Luigi and Mario, who seem to have an easier time getting that reverse ledge DI, have the ability to sweet spot the ledge, enter the barrel (it's safer than everyone makes it out to be), or pop up anywhere from the bottom.

The smaller blast zones on the side help in killing Kirbies and Pikas a little better. It's a small point, but a point nonetheless. I'm not going to go much further than this because it doesn't matter to me a whole lot and I don't go to tournaments, but those are some talking points.

Oh yeah, and the 4 platforms give the vertical characters (Luigi/Samus/Ness etc.) more options to both hide their weaknesses and even approach.
 

Fireblaster

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2003
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Storrs, Connecticut
It's a majority vote by people that know the game better than everyone else. TO's aren't going to take the opinion of Scrubby McScrublord x 100 if they all vote for having pokeballs on very high as part of the tournament ruleset.
 

Fireblaster

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2003
Messages
1,859
Location
Storrs, Connecticut
Recoveries are incredibly more balanced on CJ than on DL. I posted this a long time ago, but the lack of ledge di doesn't really hurt recoveries. Luigi and Mario, who seem to have an easier time getting that reverse ledge DI, have the ability to sweet spot the ledge, enter the barrel (it's safer than everyone makes it out to be), or pop up anywhere from the bottom.
If anything the brothers have worse recovery on kongo. Being able to ledge DI or even reverse ledge DI is so crucial to their recovery that simply getting one shot to do their upB is a pretty big nerf to them. Ness and fox suffer from not being able to ride the edge of the stage for recovery. The higher platform on Kongo is too high for link to even consider using so KJ is just a nerf to his recovery. For yoshi, the barrel is just a straight up nightmare. The barrel can just flat out kill yoshi in times where he would have recovered just fine had the barrel never existed.

Also keep in mind that the higher tier characters are the ones best at following up on barrel shots to guarantee kills.

The smaller blast zones on the side help in killing Kirbies and Pikas a little better. It's a small point, but a point nonetheless. I'm not going to go much further than this because it doesn't matter to me a whole lot and I don't go to tournaments, but those are some talking points.
Smaller blast zones help high tiers too. Pika's bthrow now kills earlier, kirby's fsmash, etc. Doesn't exactly benefit the low tiers when that stage already leads to a lot of defensive play and poking.

Oh yeah, and the 4 platforms give the vertical characters (Luigi/Samus/Ness etc.) more options to both hide their weaknesses and even approach.
On the contrary, it removes approaching options and makes defensive play even stronger. Just imagine having to approach a kirby that feels like his new home is on one of the top side platforms.
 

Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
806
Ok, so let`s stop pretending it`s a majority vote. I`d like some transparency, and a thread by the guy/lady/people voting or counting the votes.
 

McGodd

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
111
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Mukilteo WA
Make a thread with the question 'Should Hyrule be a legal tournament stage at Apex 2015?' Present in the thread why you think hyrule is a viable stage for the tournament, and ask people to share their opinions politely in the positive/negative and vote on the topic. I feel like that's the first thing one should do when trying to bring about a change, or call to attention something you believe to be questionable. The 64 community (or any community) dislikes people coming about and slamming decisions made in the past by just calling them wrong.
 

O.o-RITH-o.O

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
336
There's 41 votes for keep the counterpick going on, and 20 to make DL Only, and yet, i woudnt be surprised if the next tournament be DL only.
I see a lot of mediocre theorycrafters writing a lot, and almost none top player.
*runs away

So, the majority doesnt matter, and the really good players usually dont talk often in this threads, the rules are decided by theorycrafters with good arguments.
 
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jimmyjoe

Filthy Hori
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I think it is walking down a dangerous and offensive path trying to give weight to people's votes based on skill. Skill mostly measured on Dreamland. I would guess Isai and the Peruvians would vote for Hyrule. That's a whole lot of skill on the hyrule side. But, I think Rith has a good point- Ultimately whoever runs the tournament has veto power and can essentially make the rules.
 

MrMarbles

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
Messages
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Orlando, FL
pretty unfair POLL. It was already voted on in favor of cp ruleset. now u start a new POLL cuz u didn't get the result u wanted. This POLL is biased because your entire op is an argument in favor of dreamland. Sure opposition can post their opinion in the thread, but the majority of people will read only your op and then vote (you even requested voters to read your post before voting). I shouldn't have to explain why that's unfair. That's like the equivalent walking into a voting booth for a presidential election and having to watch a campaign ad for only one of the candidates before casting your ballot.

This thread should be closed and The Z should be banned by the ghost of Sangoku (R.I.P.)
 
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Mr Bushido

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Messages
550
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Dale Star
disprove me, boy

I encourage anyone to start their own thread (and poll) and disprove my points

(looks like my plan of using the :colorful::colorful::colorful: for hypnosis worked)
 
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Studstill

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
806
I think it is walking down a dangerous and offensive path trying to give weight to people's votes based on skill. Skill mostly measured on Dreamland. I would guess Isai and the Peruvians would vote for Hyrule. That's a whole lot of skill on the hyrule side. But, I think Rith has a good point- Ultimately whoever runs the tournament has veto power and can essentially make the rules.
Exactly, that`s a slippery slope, especially when there is no objective system in place, yet.
It does seem to me that this is a special case we are discussing, not what rules individual TO`s should use:
I believe in an absolute TO system, omniscient, omnipotent.
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
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nj
once again, studstill proves how stupid he is. "conjecture, opinion and gibberish."

you know what, i'm going for DL only from now on. not even gonna think about the metagame anymore. i don't like playing on congo and peach's, and i don't like being CP'd there. so i'm voting for one stage.

and yes i have alerts on for when you make posts

i like laughing a lot
 

malva00

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 1, 2002
Messages
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54th and 5th
Hyrule will always be the best stage.

Dreamland is for people who have a hard time killing so they need to resort to one back throw -> edge guard or one hit -> back throw -> edge guard or couple hits -> edge guard XD.
 

jimmyjoe

Filthy Hori
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NYC and NJ-Hoboken/Ocean Twp.
First of all I will always love Hyrule, but my preferred stage this last year has been DL, but honestly, people have different play styles that make them mesh better with the feel of certain characters, but also certain stage types. DL is symetrical and has minimal stage hazards for sure, but it's small size, as well as being completely covered in platforms limits the importance of the neutral game compared to a larger stage like hyrule, or a stage with less punish-happy platforms like PC, zebes, and arguably CJ. I also think a stage like battlefield, with platforms of a different height is a good thing, that will challenge players to adjust. You say there is no ledge DI on CJ? I say there are more options when on the ledge b/c you can come through the floor. You can ledge DI on hyrule, and characters don't fall under the stage or hit the bottom and lose a chance at recovery like fox or ness on DL.

some people may prefer a gimp-heavy match/stage/game, and there is nothing wrong with that, but trying to come up with reasons to force everyone to play tournaments that cater to that way of playing the game sucks for those that enjoy playing and competing in the different arenas the game has to offer that may cater more to their style of play.

So we aren't just talking character variety and stage variety.

We are talking character variety, stage variety, and player/playstyle variety.
 

O.o-RITH-o.O

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
336
some people may prefer a gimp-heavy match/stage/game, and there is nothing wrong with that, but trying to come up with reasons to force everyone to play tournaments that cater to that way of playing the game sucks for those that enjoy playing and competing in the different arenas the game has to offer that may cater more to their style of play.
that's actually true in a lot of cases, but not all of them, i think some of them are just trying to blindly ctrl c + ctrl v the JP rules
for example
there's NO REASON for the match to be 4 stock, and yet, it is an option
i wonder why lulz
soon enough we'll see another poll being created trying to brain wash everyone to make the whole tournament best of 1, and even tho they will lose horribly, it will still be considered to go into the ruleset.
 
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Mr Bushido

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Oct 26, 2013
Messages
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^NA is the only place in the world that still plays 5 stocks

Hyrule is bad for tournaments. I wont acknowledge any mention of it
 
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Herbert Von Karajan

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Mar 11, 2014
Messages
1,299
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Banned from 64
Hyrule will always be the best stage.

Dreamland is for people who have a hard time killing so they need to resort to one back throw -> edge guard or one hit -> back throw -> edge guard or couple hits -> edge guard XD.
hyrule is for people who have a hard time cause they get hit often so they need to resort to a stage where they get punished less


the real reason why congo ****ing sucks is that im red-green colorblind and have a really big difficulty making out the background from the foreground. oh wait lets have a food eating competition with peanuts being one of the 3 main categories. ****tards
 
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malva00

Smash Master
Joined
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54th and 5th
hyrule is for people who have a hard time cause they get hit often so they need to resort to a stage where they get punished less
[/quote]

Seeing as how more people in NA are preferring Dreamland these days, seems like the # of people who do not know how to kill without back throw -> edge guard is greater than the # of people who get hit "often." Also, on Dreamland, everyone gets hit often because it's easier to kill there, especially for top tiers. The difference in skill between two players decreases between a better player and a not-so-good player on Dreamland because of how easy it is to kill, similar to what happens when the number of frames online increases (easier to get hit).
 
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Compatible

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 5, 2011
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46
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Greenville, NC
I am compatible with everyone, but this is my thought process.

There is a unanimous decision we are looking to expand our community as much as possible. This can be justified by how we have previously allowed keyboard or alternative controllers to enter competition. My question is, why are we going to put barriers on play (i.e. ban specific stages) if those are stages new potential members of the community might ENJOY playing on? SSB64 costs roughly $50 to get into (10$ controller, $10 console, $10 cartridge). If you want more people to make this initial investment, you have to be accommodating with all stages, just as you were with allowing alternative controller inputs.

If I was "new" to competitive smash and saw a even greater list of explicitly outline rules that I wasn't familiar with. I would be even more hesitant to enter then I initially was! The bottom line is more entrants, equals more publicity, equals even more entrants, equals larger prize money and better time for all.
 

SheerMadness

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
4,781
Dreamland only would be lame.

We've already learned that opinions don't matter anyway. Only the TO's.

So if you want dreamland only go bribe the TO.
 

UNKN{OWN}iXi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Messages
458
Hyrule will always be the best stage.

Dreamland is for people who have a hard time killing so they need to resort to one back throw -> edge guard or one hit -> back throw -> edge guard or couple hits -> edge guard XD.
TEAMS best.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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My apologies, fortunately it was only like 24 hours of data lost.
All I saw was "twelve online wifi tournament threads" "fifty apex rule threads" and ninety-six kero threads with polls. I moved/merged them all to relevancy. That way now I have a partial visual memory of a slightly more clean 64 boards, so I can rip wipe and tear cleanslate things.
 
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Annex

Smash Ace
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can I go to your house and move around all your **** and all the **** of people you live with until it looks like I think it should, then make a snarky comment and leave and go back to my house
my house which is called "brawl"
it's called brawl because this is a metaphor about moderation don't ban me bro
 
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Shaya

   「chase you」 
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ShayaJP
can I go to your house and move around all your **** and all the **** of people you live with until it looks like I think it should, then make a snarky comment and leave and go back to my house
my house which is called "brawl"
it's called brawl because this is a metaphor about moderation don't ban me bro
You could. But to extend the analogy further, you're all a bunch of children and I'm a babysitter not getting paid because I'm related and am figuratively being blackmailed into it.

I'm happy to talk with people about there concerns, and perhaps my tone came off as snarky rather than just second-hand remarks from a private conversation. I do pride myself on my work and do so with a logic in mind, which I paraphrase to save time, but I could go on for a few paragraphs (I don't deny making mistakes either, you may see that as obnoxious/sarcasm/rudeness, but I'm being quite literal).

But in short, things need to move forward. Stagnation and complacency are the death of all things. A cleaner section should result in a clearer mind[set for its inhabitants] and you are free to disagree with how I do so and make suggestions, but not why.
 
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¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
161
i don't think that being good on dreamland and not good on other stages necessarily makes you a bad player, i just think that it's a different set of skills. you're going to be good at whatever stage you practice most on; japan is not as good on hyrule as they are on dreamland, and peru is not as good on dreamland as they are on hyrule. does not being as good on hyrule mean that japan is not as good as we make them out to be?

personally i don't think i'm very good at this game, but i think that i'm ok on dreamland and congo, because they're two stages that i've practiced the most on b/c i believe they are the best competitive stages. i honestly don't care to learn other stages because i truly don't think they're good and i don't even have fun playing on them (plus, learning other stages is an additional pain for me because on keyboard you not only have to learn the spacing/strategy for the map but also what key is best to buffer in every little individual situation - which is crucial).
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
Seeing as how more people in NA are preferring Dreamland these days, seems like the # of people who do not know how to kill without back throw -> edge guard is greater than the # of people who get hit "often." Also, on Dreamland, everyone gets hit often because it's easier to kill there, especially for top tiers. The difference in skill between two players decreases between a better player and a not-so-good player on Dreamland because of how easy it is to kill, similar to what happens when the number of frames online increases (easier to get hit).
Hmm, in my experience when players are further apart in skill they generally have closer matches on Hyrule than on Dreamland.

The backthrow edgeguard opportunities on Dreamland are pretty similar to the grab into easy tent combo on Hyrule aren't they? This is a high punish game, don't get grabbed no matter what stage you're on.
 

McGodd

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In friendlies I really only play dreamland. I used to play hyrule/peaches/Congo all the time, but after playing a ton a DL I just can't bring myself to play more than a couple games on other maps. They just feel imbalanced to me.

You could. But to extend the analogy further, you're all a bunch of children and I'm a babysitter not getting paid because I'm related and am figuratively being blackmailed into it.

I'm happy to talk with people about there concerns, and perhaps my tone came off as snarky rather than just second-hand remarks from a private conversation. I do pride myself on my work and do so with a logic in mind, which I paraphrase to save time, but I could go on for a few paragraphs (I don't deny making mistakes either, you may see that as obnoxious/sarcasm/rudeness, but I'm being quite literal).

But in short, things need to move forward. Stagnation and complacency are the death of all things. A cleaner section should result in a clearer mind[set for its inhabitants] and you are free to disagree with how I do so and make suggestions, but not why.
Hey thanks for cleaning up the 64 section all the threads and stuff in the wrong places were really bothering me. Keep up the good fight.
 

Shears

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disproving indeterminism
Psychological nerfing is a real thing. Its like superstition, it doesn't actually possess anything that makes it better but it gives the person reassurance and helps them feel comfortable. I would lose my focus if I wasn't blue hat pika because I would have to continually remind myself that I was ugly green hat instead of focusing on the match at hand. Same can happen for people that prefer dark samus or black falcon.
 

FalconOwnage

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May 28, 2014
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127
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_______
Psychological nerfing is a real thing. Its like superstition, it doesn't actually possess anything that makes it better but it gives the person reassurance and helps them feel comfortable. I would lose my focus if I wasn't blue hat pika because I would have to continually remind myself that I was ugly green hat instead of focusing on the match at hand. Same can happen for people that prefer dark samus or black falcon.
oh ok.

Check out the new thread (created by FalconOwnage) in the Melee Discussion.
 
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