Social Dr. Mario Social Thread - Witches? Dragons?...I've seen worse walk into my office.

[TTTTTsd]

Yoshi's not really unmanagable but if you're a Doc main, you should ideally go Mario here because he DOES do well and some stuff will transfer over.

Doc only really needs better pills, hitstun is perfectly fine for comboing/strings as is personally, he just needs good pills (mostly IASA/FAF being changed into 43 or 40) to add flexibility to his approaches because he functions very well up close, he just has to get there first. That's all I'd change on this character though. Uair could stand to do more damage (maybe 8 or 9%) but leave the knockback as is/lower it to make sure the increased damage doesn't mess with current Uair strings and whatnot. That's it.

In the dream world of unrealistically stupid buffs Doc could get Mario's Uair which would be insanely good on him. Uair strings/combos into Up+B vertically would be dumbbbb lol.

 

[Deleted member]

SUP DOCS

First time here in this thread, and the Doc board in general. Doc's one of my Melee mains and I secondary him in Smash 4 so I thought I'd stumble in here.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Yoshi's not really unmanagable but if you're a Doc main, you should ideally go Mario here because he DOES do well and some stuff will transfer over.

Doc only really needs better pills, hitstun is perfectly fine for comboing/strings as is personally, he just needs good pills (mostly IASA/FAF being changed into 43 or 40) to add flexibility to his approaches because he functions very well up close, he just has to get there first. That's all I'd change on this character though. Uair could stand to do more damage (maybe 8 or 9%) but leave the knockback as is/lower it to make sure the increased damage doesn't mess with current Uair strings and whatnot. That's it.

In the dream world of unrealistically stupid buffs Doc could get Mario's Uair which would be insanely good on him. Uair strings/combos into Up+B vertically would be dumbbbb lol.

What about hitstun improvement on Uair so we can do our own dumb combos ?_?

 

[mr medicinal]

all i want is for dairs landing lag to be able jump cancelled

 

[TTTTTsd]

What about hitstun improvement on Uair so we can do our own dumb combos ?_?

Improved hitstun = altered knockback and at the current angle our Uair is at that would mean arguably less combos. I don't believe you can change one without the other in a game like Smash (to my knowledge you can't) so realistically our Uair is about as good as it gets. Again I could be wrong but the only tangible improvement to it would be damage.

 

[MonkeyArms]

How? They're too laggy to follow up and not fast enough to punish. The fact that Yoshi can change angles is the good thing about it.

Compare that to Doc's pills.
I don't think its angle adjustment is a bad thing, but the real thing is that keeps him from the flaw of having a bad recovery.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Improved hitstun = altered knockback and at the current angle our Uair is at that would mean arguably less combos. I don't believe you can change one without the other in a game like Smash (to my knowledge you can't) so realistically our Uair is about as good as it gets. Again I could be wrong but the only tangible improvement to it would be damage.

Luigi's down throw completely disagrees

(Accidental Double Post)

 

[TTTTTsd]

Luigi's down throw completely disagrees

(Accidental Double Post)

Actually the reason it was a very good combo throw at most any % before the nerf was because it had incredibly low knockback scaling so the number wouldn't inflate. Let's also take into account the primary reason being Luigi's IASA frames and how fast he could act after the throw came out.

Hitstun is 100% tied to damage and knockback. Luigi D-Throw had high base, low scaling. Ergo, high-ish knockback combined with solid IASA. Now it has lower base, higher scaling, which sends people farther and blahblah.

 

[Giga Kaiju]

Well, to add one thing. Dr. Mario can be brutal up-close, especially against Yoshi in that match-making discussion on the last page. The eggs are certainly a problem when you're expecting your opponent to come to you instead of you doing so to him/her, but in the long run, being up-close can be a bad thing for Yoshi.

 

[tibs7]

these shield changes....i dont think we benefit to greatly from them, we can barely punish things with our slow speed and now its even worse.

slow characters basically just got more of nerf is how I see it, if we go through the positives and negatives of them what are they?

Pros:
- bair/fair became slightly less punishable but fair is still terrible on landing
- slight charge fsmash is safe
- usmash might be safe at some ranges and character dependant

these are honestly the only things I see we benefit from this otherwise everything else just became harder for us to punish :/

#buffdoc

 

[TTTTTsd]

We haven't gained nor lost anything because we still have Up+B OoS which is still ridiculously good.

Like if you want characters that lost out on shield changes you can look at Ganon and Bowser. Doc didn't really heavily rely on Dash > Shield in a lot of MUs because of our ridiculously safe Bair (which just got safer) among other things.

It's basically...a no-gain.

 

[MonkeyArms]

We haven't gained nor lost anything because we still have Up+B OoS which is still ridiculously good.

Like if you want characters that lost out on shield changes you can look at Ganon and Bowser. Doc didn't really heavily rely on Dash > Shield in a lot of MUs because of our ridiculously safe Bair (which just got safer) among other things.

It's basically...a no-gain.

If shield stun didn't force me to input bullcrap rolls instead of buffering an up b like it should I'd be happy. But it doesn't.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If shield stun didn't force me to input bullcrap rolls instead of buffering an up b like it should I'd be happy. But it doesn't.

I just use L Jump to buffer Up+B OoS. Pretty easy. I'd recommend it if you're getting missed inputs.

 

[tibs7]

its more like buffers bairs, but then they turn into fsmashes

slower characters came out a lot worse than anything, we lose dash grab punishes (grab game is our best asset), and sometimes not even dash attack will punish so I'd say it was a net loss for us

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Compare that to Doc's pills.
I don't think its angle adjustment is a bad thing, but the real thing is that keeps him from the flaw of having a bad recovery.

Eh, most projectiles in this game aren't' that good. And even compared to Doc's Pills, Eggs aren't that amazing. They're fast (not the toss itself, but the eggs) and adjustable, but they have a noticeable amount of end lag.

So, ZeRo made another video on Doc... lololololololol

 

[MonkeyArms]

Doc Boyz

(Fairly enough though, I haven't been doing to well the past few weeks. (8th/81, 3rd/10, 8/about 65 and just choking at New Orleans) I could've done better though.)

 

[meleebrawler]

I've been thinking... a Mewtwo/Doc pairing seems oddly well matched. Basically they cover some of each other's worse matchups (Mewtwo can handle Rosalina, and Doc has a much easier time with Fox, and I guess Pikachu if you're not good at it as Mewtwo).

 

[TTTTTsd]

I've been thinking... a Mewtwo/Doc pairing seems oddly well matched. Basically they cover some of each other's worse matchups (Mewtwo can handle Rosalina, and Doc has a much easier time with Fox, and I guess Pikachu if you're not good at it as Mewtwo).

Feel free to experiment and come back with your results/opinions if you'd like. The only thing is ZSS is still a common problem for both characters (moreso for Doc actually IMO).

But hey, ZSS and RosaLuma are the only two MUs that I think are unfeasible for Doc as far as top tiers go, so I guess it's not all that bad.

 

[meleebrawler]

Feel free to experiment and come back with your results/opinions if you'd like. The only thing is ZSS is still a common problem for both characters (moreso for Doc actually IMO).

But hey, ZSS and RosaLuma are the only two MUs that I think are unfeasible for Doc as far as top tiers go, so I guess it's not all that bad.

Eh I don't think ZSS is that bad for Mewtwo, not as bad as for Doc at any rate. Sure the juggles can be deadly, but most of her neutral tends to be spacing in mid-range, which Mewtwo also happens to be pretty competent in. Paralyzer in general is a no-no and Mewtwo can punish whiffed grabs pretty well, and finally he's fast enough to keep up with her flip jumps, which I believe is the biggest problem for Doc, no?

It's Sheik that the two still struggle with, though in a weird way Mewtwo handles the campy ones better while Doc handles the aggressive ones. Course the Sheik could just change strategies on the fly, but still...

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

I've been thinking... a Mewtwo/Doc pairing seems oddly well matched. Basically they cover some of each other's worse matchups (Mewtwo can handle Rosalina, and Doc has a much easier time with Fox, and I guess Pikachu if you're not good at it as Mewtwo).

I don't see it. It's a fun duo to rock, but it'll struggle with the top tiers. Having said that, I do think that Mewtwo would do better against Rosalina and Sonic since he has the mobility to keep up (though I'm not sure about his ability to deal with their normals). Doc would do better against just about everyone else, including Sheik, because of his weight, OOS, and power. Neither character wins these matchups per say, but they would do better against said characters.

Regarding ZSS, paralyzer is a no-no in most cases. Down-Smash and spacing with aerials where it's at, and she can do this more easily than Mewtwo and Doc. I'm not seeing the advantage for going Mewtwo over Doc against ZSS outside of being able to punish Flip Jump more easily.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't see it. It's a fun duo to rock, but it'll struggle with the top tiers. Having said that, I do think that Mewtwo would do better against Rosalina and Sonic since he has the mobility to keep up (though I'm not sure about his ability to deal with their normals). Doc would do better against just about everyone else, including Sheik, because of his weight, OOS, and power. Neither character wins these matchups per say, but they would do better against said characters.

Regarding ZSS, paralyzer is a no-no in most cases. Down-Smash and spacing with aerials where it's at, and she can do this more easily than Mewtwo and Doc. I'm not seeing the advantage for going Mewtwo over Doc against ZSS outside of being able to punish Flip Jump more easily.

I'm not saying this pairing would take the world by storm more than just using a top tier with one of the two as a secondary but like you said, it's definitely a fun and interesting take, seeing two perceived low-mids potentially able to take on most top tiers.

Sonic's spin dashes are stopped cold by jab (which doesn't recoil on clank), transcendent dsmash and shadow ball. That move in particular easily keeps Sonic honest.

Against Rosalina he can bait out and punish gravitational pulls with the low endlag of shadow ball, and at least can try to compete in spacing.

And what advantages does Doc have over Mewtwo besides potentially living longer against boost kick and being somewhat harder to space aerials on due to his smaller size? Said spacing game makes it hard for Doc to exercise his strong OOS game, and he can't even punish her grabs that well either unless she REALLY messes up her spacing, which goes for pretty much everything else she has too.

Against the other top tiers besides the ones listed above, it mostly is a matter of preference based on who you main.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

And what advantages does Doc have over Mewtwo besides potentially living longer against boost kick and being somewhat harder to space aerials on due to his smaller size? Said spacing game makes it hard for Doc to exercise his strong OOS game, and he can't even punish her grabs that well either unless she REALLY messes up her spacing, which goes for pretty much everything else she has too.

Against the other top tiers besides the ones listed above, it mostly is a matter of preference based on who you main.

Who said anything about Boost Kick? I meant in general.

Not getting juggled as hard by ZSS (in general, dealing better with her pressure), getting more damage off his throws, and having Down B to disrupt her moves and act as a soft punish in most cases. Really, the big thing that Doc sucks at dealing with is a ZSS laming it out with Flip Jump.

Size isn't what makes Doc able to space (he can space mostly because of bair). ZSS has this weird difficulty in hitting smaller characters. It's not as if the matchup becomes terrible for ZSS, but it's harder than hitting Mewtwo.

EDIT: I forgot that Mewtwo's rapid jab has pretty good disjoint, though I can never find the opportunity to use it since the transition is so slow Hooray for Sonic's "low priority" spin dashes I guess.

 

[MonkeyArms]

I don't see it. It's a fun duo to rock, but it'll struggle with the top tiers. Having said that, I do think that Mewtwo would do better against Rosalina and Sonic since he has the mobility to keep up (though I'm not sure about his ability to deal with their normals). Doc would do better against just about everyone else, including Sheik, because of his weight, OOS, and power. Neither character wins these matchups per say, but they would do better against said characters.

Regarding ZSS, paralyzer is a no-no in most cases. Down-Smash and spacing with aerials where it's at, and she can do this more easily than Mewtwo and Doc. I'm not seeing the advantage for going Mewtwo over Doc against ZSS outside of being able to punish Flip Jump more easily.

Doc does good against Pikachu, Sheik, ZSS, Villager, etc....
Top tiers aren't really a problem TBH Just like Ness and Rosalina.

 

[meleebrawler]

Who said anything about Boost Kick? I meant in general.

Not getting juggled as hard by ZSS (in general, dealing better with her pressure), getting more damage off his throws, and having Down B to disrupt her moves and act as a soft punish in most cases. Really, the big thing that Doc sucks at dealing with is a ZSS laming it out with Flip Jump.

Size isn't what makes Doc able to space (he can space mostly because of bair). ZSS has this weird difficulty in hitting smaller characters. It's not as if the matchup becomes terrible for ZSS, but it's harder than hitting Mewtwo.

EDIT: I forgot that Mewtwo's rapid jab has pretty good disjoint, though I can never find the opportunity to use it since the transition is so slow Hooray for Sonic's "low priority" spin dashes I guess.

When I said Doc was harder to space on, I meant that he is harder to hit.

Don't really see how Doc is that much harder to juggle when he's very slow in the air and his aerials don't really challenge ZSS's uair very well. It's harder to start the juggles, but otherwise the only thing Doc has going for him is his weight in this situation.
And I also don't see him getting much more out of grabs when she can just flip jump away for free after the first uair, unless dthrow -> fair is a thing? Even so getting that grab will be a big struggle.

I dunno, maybe we just value different things in our matchup analysis. Me, I value the ability to handle almost any situation, namely Mewtwo not getting lamed out easily due to his mobility in this case. As you said there isn't a whole lot Doc can do if ZSS does that, so the only question left is: how easily can she get that lead?

We don't really use the multihit jab much except on low percent fastfallers and when jab 1 hits at max range, because jab 1 usually leads to so many better things.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

When I said Doc was harder to space on, I meant that he is harder to hit.

Don't really see how Doc is that much harder to juggle when he's very slow in the air and his aerials don't really challenge ZSS's uair very well. It's harder to start the juggles, but otherwise the only thing Doc has going for him is his weight in this situation.
And I also don't see him getting much more out of grabs when she can just flip jump away for free after the first uair, unless dthrow -> fair is a thing? Even so getting that grab will be a big struggle.

I dunno, maybe we just value different things in our matchup analysis. Me, I value the ability to handle almost any situation, namely Mewtwo not getting lamed out easily due to his mobility in this case. As you said there isn't a whole lot Doc can do if ZSS does that, so the only question left is: how easily can she get that lead?

We don't really use the multihit jab much except on low percent fastfallers and when jab 1 hits at max range, because jab 1 usually leads to so many better things.

He isn't that slow. Below average for sure, but not that bad.

Weight, frame data, up-b if you're confident enough, down-b. I'd take that package any day.

Down Throw -> Fair works, but so does Dthrow > dair > sourspot up-b, dthrow > upsmash, and dthrow > bair should work too.

We're using different characters with different strengths and weaknesses. I prefer Doc's more well rounded toolkit and great frame data + KO power for this kind of matchup. ZSS is mobile enough to get around Mewtwo's defensive game and he struggles up close, so why bother.

I'm aware of the jab notes. I frequent the Mewtwo boards and watch a lot of footage of MewSquared.

 

[mr medicinal]

i personaly think dr tornaado dose wonders for seperating luma and rosa, i actually pick doc to counter rosa, without luma your combos an kill power really make a difference, properly spaced dair, upsmash and up b especily jump ccancled up b oos aare great for hiting luma of stage

 

[meleebrawler]

He isn't that slow. Below average for sure, but not that bad.

Weight, frame data, up-b if you're confident enough, down-b. I'd take that package any day.

Down Throw -> Fair works, but so does Dthrow > dair > sourspot up, dthrow > upsmash, and dthrow > bair should work too.

We're using different characters with different strengths and weaknesses. I prefer Doc's more well rounded toolkit and great frame data + KO power for this kind of matchup. ZSS is mobile enough to get around Mewtwo's defensive game and he struggles up close, so why bother.

I'm aware of the jab notes. I frequent the Mewtwo boards and watch a lot of footage of MewSquared.

Y'know, it's funny, but ZSS isn't that strong up close either. Jab is ok and utilt is nice OOS but otherwise she's mainly playing the mid-range spacing game to get her combos going, which is, again, where Mewtwo is most comfortable.

And if Mewtwo ever feels unable to challenge one of her approaches, he can simply move away to stay safe. He's fairly well-matched with her in terms of mobility which gives him greater liberty to pick his battles, doubly so if he has shadow ball.

I just think not letting yourself get too beat up or self conscious over Mewtwo's frailty and relative vulnerability to immediate juggles is a healthier attitude to have when looking at Mewtwo. See everything he can do, not just on the offensive or with his attacks, BEFORE taking the frailty into consideration.

 

[tibs7]

tournament this weekend again, have been playing a ton!

do you guys have any tips for luigi?
I think I'm having trouble because im playing to aggressive, if I were to wait more for luigi to commit to that SH so I can just usmash it I think I would be doing a little better.

Ive tried so many times to edge guard him, can obviously cape headbutt or bair if he releases at a hittable height but when he goes low I dont really know what to do. His tornado beats ours!!! and his upB does have invincibility to so its difficult.

Also which DI is best to get out of early % combos. I didnt try to mash upB, its probably best to do that right?

 

[hey_there]

tournament this weekend again, have been playing a ton!

do you guys have any tips for luigi?
I think I'm having trouble because im playing to aggressive, if I were to wait more for luigi to commit to that SH so I can just usmash it I think I would be doing a little better.

Ive tried so many times to edge guard him, can obviously cape headbutt or bair if he releases at a hittable height but when he goes low I dont really know what to do. His tornado beats ours!!! and his upB does have invincibility to so its difficult.

Also which DI is best to get out of early % combos. I didnt try to mash upB, its probably best to do that right?

Luigi's SJP is only intangible for two frames, so don't be afraid to challenge it with Tornado. SHFF bairs put a lot of pressure on Luigi and you can cape his fireballs easily. On dthrows make sure to DI toward Luigi (in) + up at first to minimize low % combos, but around mid %s you should mix up between in + up and out + down. As long as you don't always DI the same way the Luigi player won't get guaranteed big combos on you. You can also mix up whether you nair to break his combos or jump out. Like you said, usmash is fantastic, use it to cover Luigi's poor landing options. If you're playing too aggressively, you should slow down and space your attacks better.

I hope this helps.

 

[tibs7]

came 2nd out of about 70 I think yesterday.

I was in winners side too and i still lost, need to get better
losing to ryu in grands, the range kills me, his nair combo breaker kills me too.
I should have some matches up online in the next couple days so help us out when you watch, thanks

 

[TurboLink]

came 2nd out of about 70 I think yesterday.

I was in winners side too and i still lost, need to get better
losing to ryu in grands, the range kills me, his nair combo breaker kills me too.
I should have some matches up online in the next couple days so help us out when you watch, thanks

What range? Range from what move?

 

[TTTTTsd]

What range? Range from what move?

Doc vs. Ryu is not good for Doc at all. Probably 65:35 Ryu's favor if I had to throw in an arbitrary MU number. Ryu's Range on basically everything. It's a hard MU for Mario as well and I advise avoiding Doc for the Ryu MU unless you're really good at forcing over-commitment.

It's just rough haha.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Doc vs. Ryu is not good for Doc at all. Probably 65:35 Ryu's favor if I had to throw in an arbitrary MU number. Ryu's Range on basically everything. It's a hard MU for Mario as well and I advise avoiding Doc for the Ryu MU unless you're really good at forcing over-commitment.

It's just rough haha.

What about Doc's fast fall up air strings from down throw though? He can't combo break that. He also has crap range on his nair so you can just out space it anyway to avoid getting hit.
Lets not forget Ryu having litterally no answers to Doc's edge guards, either. He's also one of the easier characters to combo. You basically have to play the spacing game against Ryu after about 80 because of his shuriuken setups. Doc is definitely better than Ryu at most things in this MU, its just his pretty garanteed strong kill power that gives him a chance in this MU. Sure, you can't juggle him, but Doc is about STAGE CONTROL. When you have Ryu offstage, he's screwed.

 

[TTTTTsd]

What about Doc's fast fall up air strings from down throw though? He can't combo break that. He also has crap range on his nair so you can just out space it anyway to avoid getting hit.
Lets not forget Ryu having litterally no answers to Doc's edge guards, either. He's also one of the easier characters to combo. You basically have to play the spacing game against Ryu after about 80 because of his shuriuken setups. Doc is definitely better than Ryu at most things in this MU, its just his pretty garanteed strong kill power that gives him a chance in this MU. Sure, you can't juggle him, but Doc is about STAGE CONTROL. When you have Ryu offstage, he's screwed.

Ryu's not going to let Doc in with his neutral game and his incredible range. Ryu's Fair alone walls out a lot of approaches.

It's not Ryu's ability to break combos that make him hard. It's his dominant range, survivability, INHERENT benefits with Rage (which sucks because we have no real guaranteed kill setup on Ryu) and how he converts from the neutral into a kill setup. Doc gets juggled hard already and Ryu exploits that pretty hard alongside Doc's low movement.

It doesn't help that all of our best kill moves vs. Ryu are single hit, so on-stage he can Focus through and kill us. I can't see this as a favorable MU for Doc. I don't think it's bad on the levels of RosaLuma or ZSS but I think it's right below there.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Ryu's not going to let Doc in with his neutral game and his incredible range. Ryu's Fair alone walls out a lot of approaches.

It's not Ryu's ability to break combos that make him hard. It's his dominant range, survivability, INHERENT benefits with Rage (which sucks because we have no real guaranteed kill setup on Ryu) and how he converts from the neutral into a kill setup. Doc gets juggled hard already and Ryu exploits that pretty hard alongside Doc's low movement.

It doesn't help that all of our best kill moves vs. Ryu are single hit, so on-stage he can Focus through and kill us. I can't see this as a favorable MU for Doc. I don't think it's bad on the levels of RosaLuma or ZSS but I think it's right below there.

Down throw, Fair
Down throw, Up air, Up B.

Ryu has no real reason to use his projectile, his fair is punishable if he just simply doesn't hit it, and he lacks traction in the air (sounds stupid but yeah). We have a good projectile, a back air that is a nice trade with basically anything he throws out, a down air to challenge aireal spacing, and down b as a kill option to get through his focus, like he ACTUALLY uses it to avoid kills.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Down throw, Fair
Down throw, Up air, Up B.

Ryu has no real reason to use his projectile, his fair is punishable if he just simply doesn't hit it, and he lacks traction in the air (sounds stupid but yeah). We have a good projectile, a back air that is a nice trade with basically anything he throws out, a down air to challenge aireal spacing, and down b as a kill option to get through his focus, like he ACTUALLY uses it to avoid kills.

Ryu can Focus you out of D-Throw -> Fair because it has FRAME 1 ARMOR. Given that you incur hitlag when you hit a Focusing Ryu and he can dash away I'm not sure strings work that well either. Ryu's Fair is ridonk and he has no free win buttons but if he plays conservatively you have no way to really safely get in on him. I also went and checked for the True Combo % for D-Throw -> Fair on Ryu. It's not a range, it's literally 109%. That specific number. So even moderate rage (i.e. minimal) will affect this and as a whole it's SUPER % specific. Putting all that aside the character is not easy to kill with Dr. Mario unless the Ryu ****s up in which case that's fundamentally his player's problem.

His air traction is not a problem when his neutral game is very good. If he doesn't struggle with a character who in this case is like us a lot in terms of how he has to approach Ryu except he moves really fast and STILL has a multihit move that's good for SHs, what makes us different? Doc has some MUs over Mario and I won't deny that but this is not logically one of them given the tools Ryu has to beat Mario still apply themselves very nicely here. I can't see it as anything but a bad MU to go Doc in. I won't disagree about Doc having a few tricks in this MU but Ryu is very hard because if he picks up on any of it you have to wait for him to make a mistake.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Ryu can Focus you out of D-Throw -> Fair because it has FRAME 1 ARMOR. Given that you incur hitlag when you hit a Focusing Ryu and he can dash away I'm not sure strings work that well either. Ryu's Fair is ridonk and he has no free win buttons but if he plays conservatively you have no way to really safely get in on him. I also went and checked for the True Combo % for D-Throw -> Fair on Ryu. It's not a range, it's literally 109%. That specific number. So even moderate rage (i.e. minimal) will affect this and as a whole it's SUPER % specific. Putting all that aside the character is not easy to kill with Dr. Mario unless the Ryu ****s up in which case that's fundamentally his player's problem.

His air traction is not a problem when his neutral game is very good. If he doesn't struggle with a character who in this case is like us a lot in terms of how he has to approach Ryu except he moves really fast and STILL has a multihit move that's good for SHs, what makes us different? Doc has some MUs over Mario and I won't deny that but this is not logically one of them given the tools Ryu has to beat Mario still apply themselves very nicely here. I can't see it as anything but a bad MU to go Doc in. I won't disagree about Doc having a few tricks in this MU but Ryu is very hard because if he picks up on any of it you have to wait for him to make a mistake.

I never said Doc won the MU but 35:65 is just dumb and illogical. You do not have to approach Ryu at all, he has to approach you. He cannot play the quick spacing game like Doc and instead has challengable moves to space with and if he doesn't hit its likely a pretty easy punish. His spacing is just slower and is definitely not something to just run into. If you space correctly, it should be just as hard for him to approach you than you can him. The difference is he doesn't have reliable long range damage to put on, so you don't have to approach.

 

[tibs7]

hmmm good point i did approach for no reason tbh. but it is hard to get in if you need to.

His can DI away after the first uair and we can space around his "combobreak" nair and beat it with upB but we have to predict, i did not have a good read on him, and yup i did not know how to edgeguard.

I think its in in his favour too

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Ryu probably wins because he gets more off trades, though I think 35:65 is a bit much. And I wouldn't play either Mario against Ryu if I had characters like ZSS and Sheik as backups.

came 2nd out of about 70 I think yesterday.

I was in winners side too and i still lost, need to get better
losing to ryu in grands, the range kills me, his nair combo breaker kills me too.
I should have some matches up online in the next couple days so help us out when you watch, thanks

Awesome. Can't wait to see the videos. More Doc is good.

 

[HoSmash4]

Is there a discord or skype chat for dr mario?