Dr. Mario Moveset Analysis

[Kero the Invincible]

Think of it this way;

Dr. Mario was always intended to be in Smash, but happened to be cut from Brawl for time. This time, they used their time more wisely, and he got in like he was supposed to.

In that sense, Brawl would be the anomaly for NOT having him.

 

[BluePikmin11]

It was probably because of his importance to Nintendo, I don't think Sakurai intended for him to get cut back in Brawl.

 

[Deleted member]

Same reason for Dark Pit not just being an alt like the Koopalings. Cause Sakurai.

Dr. Mario was supposed to be in Brawl to BTW

But remember my friend clones don't take up the roster

 

[Guybrush20X6]

The Tornado changes up his moveset quite significantly on it's own. Plumber Mario has an extra ledgegaurd option but it's more situational while Dr Mario has a more general combat maneuver.

 

[BluePikmin11]

 

[Dr.Megaman]

It probably takes an afternoon or a weekend to make Dr.Mario,its harder to make a original character model...

 

[StarLight42]

Copies of Mario's custom moves? Can't say I wasn't expecting that, but jeez Sakurai.

Like that rising tornado though, that will give him a huge tier list boost if custom moves are enabled for tournaments since the Dr. Tornado isn't actually used offensively in competitive play.

Migh try the harder hitting Doc tornado for casual play too.

 

[Tepig2000]

It was probably because of his importance to Nintendo, I don't think Sakurai intended for him to get cut back in Brawl.

From what I've heard, Dr. Mario, Mewtwo and Roy were supossed to reurn in Brawl. So yeah, Sakurai didn't plan to cut him. He was just a low priority character.

 

[SmashNut]

Doc here has been the subject of many debates, but the thing is Doc fits Sakurai's character requirements. Doc was probably an alt for Mario and Sakurai just decided to add him back in, probably like Lucina. I hope people could realize this now and not question his inclusion.

Spoiler

But I know they still well.

Spoiler

Did You Forget This is SAKURAI Who is Making the Game, He's The Biggets Troll on The planet!

Also, Respect You Doctors

 

[TTTTTsd]

What's really funny is that of the clones that we've seen, Doc is the most unique of all of them, providing a different approach to Mario's entire combo game and his fundamentals.

Somehow, SOMEHOW, the one clone who is literally just Mario in a Doctor's outfit, is the most unique of the three when it comes to gameplay differences on a wide scale.

 

[RedFly]

 

[RedFly]

Copies of Mario's custom moves? Can't say I wasn't expecting that, but jeez Sakurai.

Like that rising tornado though, that will give him a huge tier list boost if custom moves are enabled for tournaments since the Dr. Tornado isn't actually used offensively in competitive play.

Migh try the harder hitting Doc tornado for casual play too.

It's not like the roster was decided at the beginning of development , They couldn't make a full custom moveset since he is obviously thrown in for competitive fan-service.

 

[PikaSamus]

Ah, yes! I'll put that in the main post.

 

[NinjaLink]

I uploaded Dr Marios customs as well with some discussion about each one.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not a fan of Dr. Mario for a lot of reasons, since he represents all of the worst aspects of a clone IMO. He's literally the same character as another, his move differences are arbitrary and have no necessary background context in his original games (unlike Luigi, who was a clone of Mario in 64, but his "similar yet different" nature had context in the actual Mario games). And in Melee, he just seemed better than Mario across the board, making Mario feel less relevant.

"Him being an alt would mess up the records" is clearly not a problem, since Alph and the Koopalings are alts, and Sakurai had no problem doing it with them.

I know clones are just extras and all that jazz, but the particular implementation and choices for clones this time around, are absolutely terrible. Speaking of Alph, why does he get to be a mere alt, yet Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, and Lucina get to be arbitrary clones? Alph could have easily been one of the most interesting clones (not even semi-clone, outright clone) in Smash history, with minimal effort, and has that given context in Pikmin 3 for being "similar yet different" to Olimar. Keep his normal attacks more or less the same, but make him have Rock Pikmin (BTW I hate how Sakurai actually teased us about this, saying "he doesn't have the Rock Pikmin" when that much was obvious when he was being announced as an alt. Makes it obvious that he WAS considered) instead of Purple Pikmin, and also maybe give him the Winged Pikmin instead of the Albino Pikmin. Rock Pikmin could have poor horizontal range, but are thrown at a slightly more vertical arc, and could be a Meteor Smash if they hit opponents from the top, being kinda similar to Villager's Bowling Ball when thrown Winged Pikmin could have infinite horizontal range and multi-hits when it connects, but will basically fly off screen if it doesn't hit a wall. And instead of the Winged Pikmin recovery, give him an improved version of Brawl Olimar's recovery (they could probably work the Winged Pikmin into it to improve it - though this change isn't even necessary). And then just give him different organisational properties for the Pikmin and what not.

There are are a bunch of better clone characters I could think of, but Alph serves as the best example simply because, for some strange reason, he was relegated to an alt.

 

[Shog]

OH man, custom moves would make Dr. Mario much better if they were allowed, because down b can be used as an additional recovery. Up B could be his new out of shield kill move (explosion ub b)

 

[Saikyoshi]

• Dr. Mario jumps slightly higher.
• Down aerial deals 1% more damage.
• Jab combo is faster.
• Forward smash is notably stronger.
• Super Jump Punch has been given KO potential.
• Back air deals much stronger damage and has more knockback scaling, but less base knockback.
• Dr. Tornado has a faster startup and a slightly longer duration. The move itself is also stronger and harder to escape from. Additionally, Dr. Mario can recover more by mashing B.
  • It has slightly extended ending lag.
• Several of Dr. Mario's other attacks, such as down and up tilts, up aerial, Super Sheet, and Megavitamins, have slightly decreased damage values.
• Dr. Mario's Super Sheet does not move him up at all.
• Down smash deals much less damage.
• Megavitamins are much more brightly colored, lack the see-through half, and appear to be shorter, but more rounded.
• Now has various things that Brawl introduced (or brought back in the first case), such as an on-screen appearance, multiple taunts, and a final smash.
• Dr. Mario now grabs with one hand as opposed to two.
  
  
  From the SmashWiki

Well, that's good news for me. I hit with Tornado a lot and use the SJP more than most players.

Also the one-handed grab helps with the whole "more stoic and badass than base Mario" vibe he's got going on now. Seriously, he just doesn't seem to give a **** this time.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If you read up on the Doc boards you'd realize that Doc and Mario are actually vastly different, to the point of where it's hard to call Doc on full on Clone on anything beyond animation data. Almost all of his aerials have a different function, his Down-B is different, Cape works differently(doesn't stall in the air), Up+B is like Luigi's, etc.

Everyone writes him off but he's arguably the most developed one of the group he's in.

 

[Folt]

Doc has the tornado. That isn't arbitrary. And of course, he has a different dair, which also isn't arbitrary.

And before you say "Tornado could be a custom move", remember that it would practically change the very nature of Mario's Down Special. The only fighters that get that kind of custom move variance is Palutena and the Miis.

Dr. Mario is Mario, but he isn't the Mario who goes and saves Peach from Bowser. He isn't the Mario who makes use of power ups and items along the way. He isn't the Mario who is Mushroom Kingdom's champion. But he is still Mario. He is still the Mario who helps people. He's still the Mario who never gives up. He is still the Mario who does something about a calamity. He is still Mario as a hero, but does this in a different way from "Mushroom Kingdom's champion" Mario. He both is and isn't Mario. As for background context, he is Mario, but a different Mario from the one we're familiar with... but still possessing the traits that makes Mario a fighter to begin with. The "Mario" and "Dr. Mario" characters are different from each other, yet fundamentally Mario.

As for Alph and the Koopalings, Alph has a very similiar build to Olimar, and the Koopalings were all resized to fit Jr.'s size and physique, like how Female Robin were resized to fit Male Robin's size and physique. And as far as your changes on Alph would go, different organizational properties are fine, but replacing Purple and White Pikmin with Rock and Wing Pikmin, especially with how Wing Pikmin are already in as a recovery move, frankly strikes me as pointless. In addition, giving him Olimar's Brawl recovery when Winged Pikmin as an Up B already work fine alone strikes me as redundant. I'd rather add the Rock Pikmin with the properties you described to Olimar's repertoire and keep Alph as an alt instead, but then again, they seem rather redundant in the face of things, with Purple Pikmin already being around and Olimar's Pikmin being many enough as is.

 

[JetCloud]

I have 2 guesses, maybe they finished the game early and just threw Doctor Mario in or Sakurai really understood that some people don't like the fludd and added Doctor Mario.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Doc got in because he hooked Sakurai up with the hardcore painkillers in return for a roster spot.

 

[ChikoLad]

If you read up on the Doc boards you'd realize that Doc and Mario are actually vastly different, to the point of where it's hard to call Doc on full on Clone on anything beyond animation data. Almost all of his aerials have a different function, his Down-B is different, Cape works differently(doesn't stall in the air), Up+B is like Luigi's, etc.

Everyone writes him off but he's arguably the most developed one of the group he's in.

By arbitrary I mean they are very "uncharacteristic" properties. Like, they are completelly meta things, and have no real reason to be different (e.g. why would Dr. Mario's F-Air work differently to Mario's when he does literally the exact same motion with no difference).

And yeah, he might be the most developed of the clones, but he's still a clone. Being a less smelly turd still makes a turd.

Doc has the tornado. That isn't arbitrary. And of course, he has a different dair, which also isn't arbitrary.

And before you say "Tornado could be a custom move", remember that it would practically change the very nature of Mario's Down Special. The only fighters that get that kind of custom move variance is Palutena and the Miis.

Dr. Mario is Mario, but he isn't the Mario who goes and saves Peach from Bowser. He isn't the Mario who makes use of power ups and items along the way. He isn't the Mario who is Mushroom Kingdom's champion. But he is still Mario. He is still the Mario who helps people. He's still the Mario who never gives up. He is still the Mario who does something about a calamity. He is still Mario as a hero, but does this in a different way from "Mushroom Kingdom's champion" Mario. He both is and isn't Mario. As for background context, he is Mario, but a different Mario from the one we're familiar with... but still possessing the traits that makes Mario a fighter to begin with. The "Mario" and "Dr. Mario" characters are different from each other, yet fundamentally Mario.

As for Alph and the Koopalings, Alph has a very similiar build to Olimar, and the Koopalings were all resized to fit Jr.'s size and physique, like how Female Robin were resized to fit Male Robin's size and physique. And as far as your changes on Alph would go, different organizational properties are fine, but replacing Purple and White Pikmin with Rock and Wing Pikmin, especially with how Wing Pikmin are already in as a recovery move, frankly strikes me as pointless. In addition, giving him Olimar's Brawl recovery when Winged Pikmin as an Up B already work fine alone strikes me as redundant. I'd rather add the Rock Pikmin with the properties you described to Olimar's repertoire and keep Alph as an alt instead, but then again, they seem rather redundant in the face of things, with Purple Pikmin already being around and Olimar's Pikmin being many enough as is.

Actually, Rosalina's Down Specials have vastly different functions, especially the third, which makes Luma gigantic for a a brief moment. So no, Mario could have had the Mario Tornado as a custom.

Also Dr. Mario is just Mario in a doctor outfit. The Dr. Mario games don't have some deep lore or anything. Nintendo wanted to cash in on the popularity of Tetris, prescription pill packaging vaguely resembles Tetris shapes which gave them a novel aesthetic to work with, and Mario is a marketable face. That formula is literally the only reason Dr. Mario exists, there is no deeper meaning to it than that. He's never stated as being any different to regular Mario, because they are literally the same person.

And regardless of whether or not you think the change in Pikmin types would be pointless, it's still less pointless than Dr. Mario's presence as a separate character, which is again, arbitrary and his differences are made up and very subtle.

 

[StarLight42]

Well, that's good news for me. I hit with Tornado a lot and use the SJP more than most players.

Also the one-handed grab helps with the whole "more stoic and badass than base Mario" vibe he's got going on now. Seriously, he just doesn't seem to give a **** this time.

Lol, i'd love if that were the case too, but Mario grabs with only one hand in this game also.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Why are they meta things?

Here's an easy explanation why. Because that alters the game from a gameplay perspective. What kind of question is that? That's like asking why make Ken's tatsu and Dragon Punches work different than Ryu's in Street Fighter. This is how fighting games work. Not trying to be rude or diminishing but that's exactly what this is. Meta differences make a character different, regardless of whether you like it or not.

If you're going to tell me he shouldn't be there, at least try and come up with a valid reason. As far as I'm concerned, different move properties(an entire different combo game too! D-Throw works like it did in Melee!) make a character different. I don't care if they're "meta", they still count.

If Smash Bros was just an art gallery I might agree, but if Doc is significantly different gameplay wise and he's purely an extra they had time to put in, then I don't see the use in complaining or being upset.

 

[arcticfox8]

Why should we care why doc is in?
I'm just gonna play the game.

 

[ChikoLad]

My point is that Dr. Mario is getting in over other clones, that could have provided more interesting and less meta differences to their source characters, and would have had more noticeable differences even to the average player, with minimal effort. Dr. Mario's differences would not be noticeable to the average player, aside from Mario Tornado.

Whether or not you personally like Dr. Mario is irrelevant, this point is completely valid on a wider scale. Dr. Mario just feels incredibly shoehorned.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Yeah I'm pretty sure anyone could tell the difference between a pill and fire.

 

[Folt]

By arbitrary I mean they are very "uncharacteristic" properties. Like, they are completelly meta things, and have no real reason to be different (e.g. why would Dr. Mario's F-Air work differently to Mario's when he does literally the exact same motion with no difference).

And yeah, he might be the most developed of the clones, but he's still a clone. Being a less smelly turd still makes a turd.



Actually, Rosalina's Down Specials have vastly different functions, especially the third, which makes Luma gigantic for a a brief moment. So no, Mario could have had the Mario Tornado as a custom.

Also Dr. Mario is just Mario in a doctor outfit. The Dr. Mario games don't have some deep lore or anything. Nintendo wanted to cash in on the popularity of Tetris, prescription pill packaging vaguely resembles Tetris shapes which gave them a novel aesthetic to work with, and Mario is a marketable face. That formula is literally the only reason Dr. Mario exists, there is no deeper meaning to it than that. He's never stated as being any different to regular Mario, because they are literally the same person.

And regardless of whether or not you think the change in Pikmin types would be pointless, it's still less pointless than Dr. Mario's presence as a separate character, which is again, arbitrary and his differences are made up and very subtle.

Rosalina's Down Specials is still the same in function: They are all moves that protect her. FLUDD is a chargeable ranged pushing move and Tornado is a crowd-control/recovery spin attack. They're clearly different from each other in form and function whereas Rosalina's merely change the properties of her move in what she's protected from and how.

Of course. The "Dr. Mario" role was made to make the Mario character fit in with something that could be used for a Tetris-like puzzle game. That in itself implies that Mario as he normally was could not be used for the game, so the doctor persona was created so they could. That makes the doctor Mario, but also not Mario. He has Mario's personality, yet he isn't the Mario who we're familiar with. He has Mario's penchant for heroics, yet he isn't the Mario who goes off saving the princess. They are similiar, yet different.

Pills are already a notable difference from the fireball, in the same way that f. ex. a Rock Pikmin would be different from a Purple Pikmin. Other than that, he makes use of a sheet instead of the cape, has an electric f-smash (defibrillators!), has different dair and Down B in Smash 4, and is generally more of a power character in contrast to Mario's comboability. Also, subtle differences isn't a drawback to me, as I love exploring characters and figure out the things that set them apart from each other. And Dr. Mario has enough differences from his counterpart that I don't think his inclusion to the roster as a separate character is arbitrary or pointless.

 

[RedFly]

-FAir doesn't spike, rather it launches forward.
-NAir is a reverse sex kick. It gets stronger the longer it's active.
-New (old) DAir
-FSmash is stronger, but doesn't have as much range.
-DThrow launches further (so it doesn't really combo like Mario's)
-Up B is a single hit move with a sweet spot, but doesn't travel as far
-Side B doesn't stall in the air, you still fall when using it
-I think USmash has a meteor smash property when it hits a grounded opponent like in Melee, but not sure on this one, or if it's stronger than Mario's on aerial opponents.
-Apparently his DSmash here is actually weaker?
-Dunno if his dtilt sends opponents behind him like in Melee.

/thread

 

[Ravioko]

Can Dr.Mario wall jump? I thought I heard somewhere he couldn't...

 

[Gidy]

Does his down-b recover well?

 

[Deleted member]

I hope mario tornado will be back for in the next smash game so doctor mario can be Altr.

 

[Gre ninja'd]

Dr mario was supposed to be an alt, and then mario probably had the tornado as a custom, but since they had differences, like the cape and up b, they made them seperate characters, and dr mario may have gotten marios old custom down b, and then they added the fludd custom moves after.

 

[Ffamran]

He also has a "different" idle animation and taunts compared to Mario along with his victory animations. His idle stance looks like it's just Mario's but slowed down. I don't know why, but I guess it's supposed to give that calm doctor feel while Mario's faster idle movements suggest a more fighter-ready look.

 

[Fairycancel]

/thread

lol, love that XD

 

[Quillion]

I kinda understand, though.

The custom moves are supposed to be variants of the special move (with the exceptions of the Miis, Palutena, and kind-of Mega Man).

But people wanted the Tornado back, so... why not give it to Doc?

 

[Knight Dude]

It seems that the only real reason he was put in was to give people a Mario Tornado option.

Why that instead of a custom move for Mario?

Well, like the other two clone characters, he was likely added so that he could pad the roster. The devs likely didn't have enough time to make more "unique" characters.

Though between the three, Doc's easily the most interesting between them. To me anyway. Mostly because he has one unique special attack. Along with the fact that he's a previously cut character returning to the series. Which I don't think we've seen before.

As for the custom move thing, well, most of the characters custom moves are supposed to be variants of what they already have. So it makes sense that Mario's Down Customs would all be multiple versions of FLUDD.

 

[Quillion]

Well, like the other two clone characters, he was likely added so that he could pad the roster. The devs likely didn't have enough time to make more "unique" characters.

Though between the three, Doc's easily the most interesting between them. To me anyway. Mostly because he has one unique special attack. Along with the fact that he's a previously cut character returning to the series. Which I don't think we've seen before.

As for the custom move thing, well, most of the characters custom moves are supposed to be variants of what they already have. So it makes sense that Mario's Down Customs would all be multiple versions of FLUDD.

So do you share my sentiment that SSB4 was rushed as an emergency to give both the 3DS and Wii U games of note? (though the 3DS is doing exceedingly well in its home country).

 

[Knight Dude]

So do you share my sentiment that SSB4 was rushed as an emergency to give both the 3DS and Wii U games of note? (though the 3DS is doing exceedingly well in its home country).

Not really. But of course, I wouldn't know for sure myself. Just that there was only so much time to make the game. Even if Smash is bound to sell no matter what, it still has deadlines to meet, and I imagine Sakurai didn't want to delay the game yet again like he did with Brawl. Hence why the clones were added, that's likely been the situation since Melee. But again, I wouldn't know for sure.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Can Dr.Mario wall jump? I thought I heard somewhere he couldn't...

He couldn't in Melee but I've not heard anything about this version.