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DOs and DON'Ts of Livestreaming a Tournament: My Attempt at A Full Writeup

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Hello, PEEF here. I've got something that I hope will be interesting to some of you. There are tons of guides on how to set up your livestream/recording setup, get the right hardware, and so on. These are all very helpful of course. However, I got the idea to write a different kind of livestream guide. I want to write publicly about an issue that I write about privately nearly every day in response to inquisitive livestreamers looking to stream their first big tournament (or improve on their old tourney streams.) This "guide" is my attempt to explain my failures so you can dodge them, while at the same time discussing some successes that I want more smash streamers to benefit from. I hope that this thing manages to get across the best of what little I have to share about streaming tournaments.

Let me start by saying that I am not writing this as some self-tribute or pointless thread to entertain myself. I'm just a smasher that managed to catch some breaks and catch some heat in my modest experience livestreaming, and on the one year anniversary of regular PEEFsmash streams, I wanted to give back to you all some of what I have picked up this year. If it wasn't for your continuing support of my stream I wouldn't have been able to f*** up enough times to have anything to say about improving a livestream.




Part 1: Some of it is just having the right crap. [But the right crap ain't nothin' too special.]
I said I didn't want to make this about hardware and stuff, but I have to touch on this a bit. If you want a super smooth 480p 800kbps stream with webcam/playercam and quality audio, you have to have either a pretty high end gaming laptop, or be willing to carry a gaming desktop around. HOWEVER, this does not mean give up. SPOILER ALERT: I streamed The Big House (most watched Smash Bros tournament livestream of all time until APEX) from a 2 year old MacBook Pro. I got partnered on twitch.tv with nothing other than a dam MacBook Pro. It wasn't until late October that I got the fancy rig that I stream with now. The Mac was pushed to its limits and it took countless hours to dial it in, but it is possible. I do not know a ton about computers, and this isn't what this guide is about. However, here is my rule of thumb: If your computer has processor speed equivalent or greater than that of a freaking MacBook Pro, you can livestream (console games!) smoothly and successfully. Hooray. The other important part is the internet connection. 1mpbs upload means you are golden. However, upload speeds of under .4mbps can work. Not too bad. Commentator cams and especially player cams are a must! Be sure to purchase or communitysource an external webcam that works with your system! Oh yeah and use Xsplit.







Part 2: Regarding quality, what should be my stream's priorities?
The most important part of your livestream is FRAMERATE FRAMERATE FRAMERATE. That means 25-30. People would rather watch semi-recognizable color blobs float around the screen in smooth-as-butter glorious 240p than chop tomatoes with your "high quality" 480p+ laggy slideshow of a stream. If we wanted minute-to-minute updates we would watch twitter. On a more serious note, even slight lag is INFURIATING to most viewers. The PAINSTAKING ANTICIPATION of waiting for that next miserable half-second of lag that happens every 10 seconds is enough to drive even the coolest cucumbers mad. We don't want to miss ANYTHING, even if that means that it isn't obvious that Marth is a girl. We have played the game enough to be able to tell what's happening, I promise. It's part of human nature to be able to see a tiger crouching through the fog. Teleporting tigers though....

The second most important part of your livestream is decent sound quality. We aren't talking recording studio here, but we also don't want the hallowed Melee theme to sound like it's being dubbed by a cover band that uses only tin cans, kitchen appliances and wads of construction paper. Audio quality eats up only a small amount of bandwidth (maybe one 12th) and does not take much power to encode. CD quality (128kbps) is good. 96kbps is acceptable as well.

The THIRD (aka last) most important thing is the actual picture quality. Trust me, we will know what is happening. Make it smooth (30fps), make it sound acceptable, and make the picture quality as good as you can with the previous two as your essential limiting factors.

NOTE: I did not talk about "what quality to put it at." Every computer and internet connection is so different that I couldn't possibly tell you what to set things to. I will tell you that you never need a resolution over 480p (the games native resolution cannot be increased) and the max bitrate (upload) you would EVER need for smash (including sound) is 1000kbps. Anything less than this can work, so to find out where you fall, try it out! There will always be some people lurking on the Team Smashbros page (www.twitch.tv/team/smashbros) and assuming you have told me to add you, your stream will show up there and people can help. Make sure you tell them that you are aiming for a smooth 30fps and good sound quality above all (aka you want to be better than the average smash stream!) If the stream sound lags, and/or your stream is lagging at a very regular duration and frequency (say once every 5 seconds for half a second) you are PROBABLY trying to broadcast at too high a bitrate. If the lag seems somewhat random both in duration and frequency, and happens especially when there are flashes or other graphical animations happening, then it is probably encoding lag (your computer's processing speed.) Wanna know why the latter part of the Canada Cup (8.95) stream was played mostly on the training stage? The streamer was using a pretty crappy computer that couldn't handle encoding bright images. I noticed it and skyped one of the Twitch.tv admins and told him to tell the streamer to play on training stage only (and fix his vbv buffer) and that fixed the lag issue almost entirely. (Stream was still kindof grainy because the comp couldn't laglessly stream any better quality.) You can also PM me on here and schedule a time for me to watch your stream and fix up your problems lickedy split. Its fun!







Part 3: The chat is your lifeblood and also your...deathblood.
A good, healthy chat in a tournament livestream is a great thing. Everyone discussing the match, getting hype, the experienced are teaching and the unexperienced are learning. "Wow Jigglypuff isn't the worst character in the game?" says mariochamp. "No Jiggs is one of the best because of [insert tons of reasons here.]" says KirbyKaze. Its lovely. However, the chat can get dirty rotten as soon as the trolls enter. You know how I handle it? BAN EVERYONE WHO SAYS ANYTHING YOU DON'T LIKE. I'm just kidding. There should be enough room for talking about stuff like balance and even some honest and informed discussions of stuff like Melee vs Brawl vs Project: M. However, LAY THY HAMMER SWIFTLY as soon as the troll comments, sensational comments and capslock comments come. Just ban them if its bad, and time them out if its pretty bad/annoying. Timeouts should be handed out liberally. It's just ten minutes of them not talking, but everyone else sees the <message deleted> and knows not to act up. Trust me, you CAN censor the trolls faster than they can remake accounts. THIS IS NOT FREE SPEECH HOUR THIS IS SPARTA OF ESPORTS. Support SOPA-style chat moderation. Not exactly, but do not tolerate trolls because you think you have to or that they deserve the right to say that smash brothers is a game for fat nerds and girlymen. In order to say that they have to have actually attended a tournament and seen it for themselves. Being right by accident is no good. Real talk: Trolls ruin your chat, swamp honest discussion, and make the whole stream-watching experience miserable. They will run away with your tournament stream. Get moderators for your chat. Unmoderated chat is what caused APEX to force apart the FGC and the Melee [stream watching] communities farther than they have ever been, instead of serve it's purpose of bringing them together. (If you disagree with me about that, then that's fine, but I cannot stream a tournament or watch another tournament stream without seeing tons of people attacking Smash like they never have before, believing [perhaps correctly] that most or all of the FGC is behind them.)

READ YOUR DAMN CHAT. This should go without saying. I'm not quite sure why so many people stream tournaments but have nobody reading the chat. The chat usually can point out lag, sound issues, and they can voice their opinions on what kind of matches they want to see. If you stream, have either yourself or someone else read the freakin stream. You need to moderate it and you need to listen to the powah of the people. They are who you are streaming to, after all! They are taking time out of their day to watch you watch other people play a video game, and they want to talk to you about it. They aren't all trolls I promise.








Part 3: Commentary: Don't be afraid to say no sometimes, but hopefully they will read my suggestions?/B]
"Oh my god can you believe that tournament didn't have commentary! It was horribly disgusting that I had to watch a match without having someone tell me what was going on! The whole stream sucked because all I got to watch were the matches!" Does this sound familiar? Well it shouldn't because this NEVER happens. What do people REALLY need regarding commentary? They need to know who is playing. This can be achieved with active updating of the text boxes. People also probably deserve crowd reactions. Crowd reactions are part of what made HMW's videos so awesome during his 6 month stint of posting s**tloads of videos. Crowds get hype, we get hype, newbs learn that our game is hype, etc.

What we do not need: Most people's commentary. It doesn't matter how knowledgeable someone is, or whether they THINK they can commentate. It will probably end up bad. Do not entrust ANYONE blindly with the mic. They will ruin your VODs and make the chat get so mad and annoyed that they cannot focus on the game at all. More trolling will happen, more banning therefore will happen, and everything will spin out of control and soon enough the tournament will be labeled a failure before its even over. (I'm not kidding!) Tell people in your thread beforehand that YOU (and TOs) WILL KICK PEOPLE OFF THE MIC FOR NO REASON. This will ease the blow. People will get PJSalty but just say you need to report some stuff to the stream and do some technical stuff or whatever and don't let them back on if they were a bad commentator. Don't be afraid to JUST SAY NO to commentary in general if you think there aren't going to be any of the good commentators. Crowd reaction+informing people of upcoming matches is sometimes good enough! However, as JPOBS pointed out, it might be good to help develop new commentators. Make sure they have at least considered my suggestions below so that they can make the best of their commentating attempt.

There are good commentators out there like Dogy and HMW+Phil for example. I am obviously not talking about if they are around. If they are there get them to do commentary immediately haha. However just keep in mind this simple phrase:

Commentary rarely MAKES a tournament stream, but quite often ruins one.​

I feel it is important to note that I do not think I am that good of a commentator, but I commentate tournaments sometimes. I have learned alot since my first attempt at commentary a couple years ago, and this most recent tournament in London (95 thousand total views) everyone told me my commentary was pretty good. I followed a few rules that I've put together for myself that I gathered from good commentators both in Melee and in other games such as Starcraft.

1: Don't say "thats bad" or "this guy is bad." You are probably treading on someones small-town hero, or an up-and-comer. Not to mention some of the highest level mindgames seem bad on face. The first guy that missed a double empty-hop to grab, or charged an usmash half the stage away waiting for a roll that never came was probably was laughed out of the venue. Now we know better. Don't say things or people are bad. Question the decision, ask (even out loud) why they would do that, and try to come up with a reasonable answer. Tech mistakes are always possible and consistently manage to make players look stupid even if they aren't. The chat and future viewers will get very annoyed, and it severely undermines your credibility if you ever say something is bad when you just didn't know about it. (And yes it will happen.)

2: Don't make jokes unless you are funny. That style of commentary is reserved for a select few like Sliq, Jiano and soft. (This rule is why I no longer ever make jokes doing commentary.)

3: In Melee, talking strategy and playstyle is FAR BETTER than play-by-play. We all know what the moves are. "Oh hes going for an up b, oh hes going for a dsmash, oh he hits him back off..." is tiring. We can see the screen. Point out strategical and playstyle related trends (like Dogy often does much better than I could hope to). Something like "Look at how Dr.PP isn't playing Melee as we normally see it. He is almost playing king of the hill with the center of the stage, giving himself an advantage for every moment that Hungrybox has to spend trying to get away from the edge and back to a place where he can hope to fight." This would be nice insightful commentary that is neither bland nor annoying.

4: Don't be afraid to just quit commentating. If the chat hates it, you should probably stop. You gave it a shot, do what is best for the viewer.

Again, I want everyone to know that I am by no means that good of a commentator, but I have noticed that the above rules apply if you want to keep your viewers and chat happy.








Part 4: Pre-gaming for tourney day
You MUST test out 100% of your equipment AT THE VENUE beforehand. Make sure everything works, all the way down to the sockets on the wall. This is why so many streams fail. They spend the whole day setting up the proper bitrate and quality and everything just goes to hell and it looks so bad. Do this stuff beforehand! Test out everything. Invite a friend to come to the venue with you and do an hour or so of test-friendlies from the venue! Advertise it in the Team Smashbros thread and in your tournament thread! Be sure to include the time and date of the real tourney stream in your test stream. This will get people hyped, alert all of your followers that there is a tournament that they need to make time to watch, and ABOVE ALL gives you that crucial opportunity to take as much time as you need to **** around with settings and get everything just right. If you are using an external webcam (which I highly recommend) make sure you have a place reserved for it, and make sure it is working and doing as it is told. Webcams that some random guy gives you to use sometimes just don't work properly, and now is when you find out. This might be the most important step!







Part 5: Tourney day!
This is where everything comes together, don't fk it up.
A very good idea that Juggleguy and I came up with at The Big House, (actually I think he came up with it on his own and I just fell in love with it) is to schedule matches for the livestream. There is NOTHING more boring than watching M2K beat up on 7 people for 5 hours as he 2-0s everyone in his pool. Just because M2K was playing doesn't make it fun to watch. What Juggleguy and I did at The Big House was choose what we thought would be the single BEST match from each pool, and have that livestreamed. This is, I truly believe, the best possible way to stream pools. It does not take much work. You announce all of the matches that WILL be streamed on the livestream in the tournament thread (if you set up loose pools beforehand) and/or again right before bracket. This way everyone will know, and there won't be confusion. The best match in every pool plays on the stream, the viewers get to see everything they wanted, cha ching. I do this at every tourney I stream now.

Make sure that you kick off anyone doing friendlies unless they are the best players there and you have nothing else to stream. Do NOT let even mediocre players hog the stream. It is good to announce this policy beforehand, and to tell the best players personally that you would like them to play friendlies on stream if they see it open. Same goes with money matches. Truly hype money matches, stream. But " because it is a money match" does not make it any more entertaining if the players aren't good, and streams are all about entertainment.

Once you get deeper into the tournament, make sure EVERY GOOD MATCH gets streamed. Run around like a madman grabbing people that are about to play and force them to get on the livestream. People are PAYING YOU to play this game, that means they go to the livestream. Someone made a rule about that awhile ago and I think it's good. If you are going to possibly take the communities money, you are going to at least be documented robbing us LIVE! Get a megaphone. Should have said that in the other part. Juggleguy showed me the power of a megaphone in the right hands. People are just putty to him as he pushes them gently -yet with a firm and guiding hand- over to the livestream setup with nothing but his voice. FUS GO PLAY
onthelivestream. You can do it too.

Thats just about it. This took way longer than expected but I'm glad I finally wrote this all down. Thanks to everyone who has supported my stream, and I hope this helps many future tournament streamers!



BTW if you somehow haven't seen this, every smash bros streamer known is now on our official Team Smashbros twitch.tv page. Go there and support
them! http://www.twitch.tv/team/smashbros
 

voorhese

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
3,389
Location
Decatur, IN
I will prolly be asking you for advice on streaming equipment sometime soon. When i get my new rig built i will be streaming a lot of stuff. As for tournament streaming, After our last tourney at purdue we may be getting bigger attendance. Hopefully with bigger attendance we will stream!
 

ajp_anton

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
1,462
Location
Stockholm
I think you're overestimating the hardware needed. At least the "gaming" part.
Sure, good CPUs are often coupled with a good GPU, but small computers can have a good CPU while not being able to fit any sort of gaming GPU.
In addition, your comparison with Macs is a bit weird, since Macs often use the very best of the best CPUs in existence =). At least the Pro ones, maybe not Air...

So it's all about the CPU, the rest doesn't really matter. Any new-ish CPU (except Intel's Atom or AMD's E-series) is usable to some degree. There are three things that make it easier on the CPU, in the order of importance:
- Settings. x264 has build-in presets, and XSplit gives you easy access to them. Use the faster presets for worse but less demanding compression.
- Bitrate. Lower bitrate requires less CPU power.
- Resolution. If the image starts to look blocky because you reduced the above two, try reducing this instead.

Melee isn't only "not above 480p", it isn't really even 480p unless you use component cables (NTSC version only). Deinterlacing 480i into something that's even close to 480p isn't really possible unless you have a fast (fast!) CPU, and know what you're doing. You might as well go down to 320x240 right away =). Sure the image might look artificially sharper in higher res, but it's mostly just because the flashplayer at the other end sucks at upscaling. This might even give you the headroom to use slower (better) encoding settings.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
I think you're overestimating the hardware needed. At least the "gaming" part.
Sure, good CPUs are often coupled with a good GPU, but small computers can have a good CPU while not being able to fit any sort of gaming GPU.
In addition, your comparison with Macs is a bit weird, since Macs often use the very best of the best CPUs in existence =). At least the Pro ones, maybe not Air...

So it's all about the CPU, the rest doesn't really matter. Any new-ish CPU (except Intel's Atom or AMD's E-series) is usable to some degree. There are three things that make it easier on the CPU, in the order of importance:
- Settings. x264 has build-in presets, and XSplit gives you easy access to them. Use the faster presets for worse but less demanding compression.
- Bitrate. Lower bitrate requires less CPU power.
- Resolution. If the image starts to look blocky because you reduced the above two, try reducing this instead.

Melee isn't only "not above 480p", it isn't really even 480p unless you use component cables (NTSC version only). Deinterlacing 480i into something that's even close to 480p isn't really possible unless you have a fast (fast!) CPU, and know what you're doing. You might as well go down to 320x240 right away =). Sure the image might look artificially sharper in higher res, but it's mostly just because the flashplayer at the other end sucks at upscaling. This might even give you the headroom to use slower (better) encoding settings.
Like I said in the very beginning and throughout, this guide isn't so much about the technical aspect at all. I tried to make it clear that others might be able to provide more detailed info regarding the exact specifications, but I was planning on providing a basic sketch of what you might want, and then moving on. My Mac couldn't keep up with what I wanted to do with my stream, but it was decent enough. When I say broadcast in 480p I meant the streamers choice of deinterlaced resolution.

I went to great lengths (I thought) to keep technical stuff out of the guide in order to focus on other aspects that aren't really talked about, and I am disappointed that you posted purely about technical jargon when I tried to avoid that subject and discuss other stuff =[

Did you have anything to say about the bulk of the content?
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
I think commentating should be encouraged, not overtly discouraged. Every sport and professional video game ever has commentary, and the reason is because commentary is a crucial part of the viewing experience.

I don't think "just say no" is the appropriate response. Instead, we as a community need to actually work on developing commentators, instead of just allowing a select few who are naturally good to commentate, and then completely dismissing everyone else.

Lets work towards developing good commentary across the community, because it is 100% necessary if we are to be taken seriously and the community is to grow.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
I think commentating should be encouraged, not overtly discouraged. Every sport and professional video game ever has commentary, and the reason is because commentary is a crucial part of the viewing experience.

I don't think "just say no" is the appropriate response. Instead, we as a community need to actually work on developing commentators, instead of just allowing a select few who are naturally good to commentate, and then completely dismissing everyone else.

Lets work towards developing good commentary across the community, because it is 100% necessary if we are to be taken seriously and the community is to grow.
Hm. Maybe I should adjust that section then. I included the commentary guidelines in order to help future people get a headstart, so perhaps I don't want to be SO pessimistic about it, but I wanted tournament hosts to understand that it IS a risk for their tournament, as I'm sure a stream viewer like you could understand. I am adjusting that section in light of your comment though, thanks.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
i kno u said you don't know much on the technical aspect of things, but a lot of what u said was incorrect or misleading. im considering making a guide more focusing on the technical side.

everything else is cool tho, thx for writing it out for those who need it.

:phone:
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
i kno u said you don't know much on the technical aspect of things, but a lot of what u said was incorrect or misleading. im considering making a guide more focusing on the technical side.

everything else is cool tho, thx for writing it out for those who need it.
Chibo are you glorifying yourself through one of my threads again? Nothing I said about the technical aspect of streaming was incorrect. If you think it is misleading, then you better give an explaination. I already explained what I meant by 480p, this is the deinterlaced resolution you will choose, and the resolution that will show up on your channel when you stream. If you make a guide focusing on the technical side after what I've seen you stream then I'll be damned.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
Nice post, Peef. I have to say that I agree with your section on commentating.

For the most part, nobody wants to hear it, because the odds are good that you aren't any good at it. If you are going to commentate, discussing theory, rather than narrating the game, is important.
 

Grape Ape

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
120
Location
Kings Park
Do you have a recommended power for the processor? "as good as a macbook pro" is pretty terrible especially since the power of a processor is defined in cores/ clock speed. would a quad core 2.3Ghz work?
 

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
My guess is that the number of cores is less important with something like this, but I can never keep straight what stuff is actually programmed to use more than one core.
 

Grape Ape

Smash Apprentice
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May 8, 2008
Messages
120
Location
Kings Park
Probably not xSplit. Very few things are, which is pretty bad considering its becoming very hard to increase the speed of a processor anymore.
Heck, TF2 only supports Intel multicores, not AMD (or didn't last time i checked)
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Number of cores does matter, but less so for streaming console games (much more for streaming games on the same comp you are streaming them.) This is because your computer doesn't have to ALSO run a game while it encodes. I can't say what will and won't work, but I have only ever streamed with dual core computers, and that includes the one that I stream Melee about as nice as Xsplit allows, and I also stream Starcraft 2 in 720p on it. There are no "for sure" rules regarding streaming because there are many factors that matter, but it is primarily processing speed that matters, as ajp and I said. You should be just fine Ursper, considering the fact that my MacBook pro is 2.3ghz and not even quad core. Give it a shot, you can always return the Dazzle if it doesn't work but I bet it will all work just fine.
 

ajp_anton

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
1,462
Location
Stockholm
Did you have anything to say about the bulk of the content?
Well, I didn't mean to write such a long post, but it always happens. My main reason to comment in the first place was that I think you were exaggerating the hardware you need.
IMO I didn't talk much about the technical stuff either. I tried to just give some guidelines and what one should be aware of.

Anyway, it wasn't supposed to start a discussion on the technical stuff, just to fill in some holes in your short but vague description. It could've been better while still short.

I'm not very good at all this "good guide", "great stuff" etc, I know I always only comment on the things I don't fully agree with and don't really mention the good part, sorry...


To quickly answer the topic of the last few posts:
Anything quad-core is good enough. Luckily they don't put ****ty cores like the Atom into those quads, so going "quad" is always safe.
XSplit uses x264 for encoding, which can easily use 10 cores or more for encoding.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
Chibo are you glorifying yourself through one of my threads again? Nothing I said about the technical aspect of streaming was incorrect. If you think it is misleading, then you better give an explaination. I already explained what I meant by 480p, this is the deinterlaced resolution you will choose, and the resolution that will show up on your channel when you stream. If you make a guide focusing on the technical side after what I've seen you stream then I'll be damned.
Uh no, I'm not. Did you miss where I thanked you for writing the guide and everything else was great? I'll point out all of the flaws on the technical aspect very soon, just got home from a long weekend 10 minutes ago and need to catch up with things.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Uh no, I'm not. Did you miss where I thanked you for writing the guide and everything else was great? I'll point out all of the flaws on the technical aspect very soon, just got home from a long weekend 10 minutes ago and need to catch up with things.
LOL you said "thanks for writing it for those that need it" as if you are "above" everything in the guide. It's posts like that that are so irking.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
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Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
Stop trying to twist my words and find something bad about them <_<

You said in the OP "inquisitive livestreamers looking to stream their first big tournament (or improve on their old tourney streams.)" aka those starting out or looking to improve, aka for those who need it. They're synonyms. come on man
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
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Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
Edit: In writing this to discuss a lot of faults from the tech section of Peef's guide, I threw in a ton of bonus info from stuff I know about digital video.



A 480p 800kbps stream DOES NOT require a pretty high end gaming laptop or gaming desktop. 480p and 800kbps is frankly... below standard. It's not too taxing. A standard computer with an ok processor (almost any i series for any current processor, or core duo/quad series for the last series of processor (intel wise that is)). You really don't even need dedicated graphics either, integrated can handle something like this. A very basic desktop can handle this, or a mid range laptop (if not low-mid).

A "two-year old Macbook Pro" is no slouch. I don't know why you're downplaying it acting like it's a bad machine. What's poor about Mac is the option of your streaming programs and hardware, unless you're going high end. There's really no good low-mid option for Mac, but if you're willing to jump up to Wirecast, Macs are fine.

"If your computer has processor speed equivalent or greater than that of a freaking MacBook Pro." This means... nothing. You don't say the stats of your Macbook Pro with the customization you bought it at, nor do you specify what generation it is or what processor it has (which can allude to it). And even if, any new Macbook Pro purchased two years ago is FAR above the minimum required for streaming.

I've been hosting tournaments for years and years. Since 2007. And with that, I've been streaming tournaments for over 3 years. Not that I've streamed every event I've done in 3 years (but I do now), but I have since then. CoT4? That had a livestream in early 09. The first Beyond the Limit? I believe that was also 2009. This Macbook Pro you have was purchased in 2010 according to you, and Macbooks are always high end computers. So your computer didn't even exist when I streamed lol. CoT4 was streamed in 480p I believe, and it was on a Core Duo laptop with dedicated graphics and 2gb of ram iirc. It was a mid range laptop for the time, maybe mid-high. The problems with the CoT4 stream was the internet, but it was still more than good. BtL on the other hand... It was streamed in 240p iirc, but honestly that's really not too bad when you're only doing gameplay full screen from the Wii with a good bitrate. It also had commentary. You want to know what that ran on? A netbook. At full 30 fps. Not that I'm trying to boast here, I'm just showing from experience how it's possible to stream even on very weak computers. That netbook was your basic Atom 1.7 or 1.8 ghz processor with 2gb of ram and integrated gfx.

As for what I stream on now, it's either my monster of a Desktop which can handle just about anything I can throw at it, or my mid/mid-low range laptop (purchased in 2011 though) which does 480p at a breeze, 576p near flawless, or close to no frame skips on 720p based on the scene. The laptop btw is a i5 2510m (i think, I keep forgetting the number), and integrated gfx (urg, long story) with 4gb of ram.

If you're just looking for an SD stream (which honestly is fine for Smash), the computer isn't your first worry for hardware, since chances are if your computer has been somewhat relevant in the last 3 years, it's fine. Make sure you have a solid capture card, and good audio equipment. You can get away with a Dazzle. Pinnacle Movie Boxes however are some of the best SD cap cards I've found, but I find them over priced. If you want to make the jump to HD, go for a Blackmagic or nothing. I've found nothing else to be worth it because of price. If you go for a Shuttle though, do extensive research to make sure it will work with your laptop. It's very finicky and requires a very recent computer. Not only does it require USB 3.0, it requires a certain type of USB 3.0. I literally built my new desktop in 2012, found that my new mobo accidentally had the wrong USB 3.0, and had to exchange it for a differ one.

As for cameras, this isn't something I'm the most well versed in. You can get away with some basic web cams. If you want to step up to the big leagues though, I would contact some other streamers for what they use. The cameras are the only piece of equipment I haven't upgraded recently, but they get the job done. I use a Xbox Live Vision Camera and an HP HD Webcam. Basic stuff. I got the HP on sale for $7 on Cyber Monday, and found the Vision Cam in my room when looking for various equipment lol.

Which brings me to a side point, be resourceful. Don't have a mic? Well, do you have Guitar Hero World Tour or Rock Band? Then you do lol. Those mics are really just regular computer microphones packaged up to match the game. For a while I used a Live Vision Cam and the Guitar Hero Mic, equipment I already had for other purposes. Honestly, in terms of SD cameras, the Live Vision Cam really isn't that bad actually.

For audio, get a mixer. I didn't have one until recently, and it has revolutionized my audio. You can get splitters/joiners to get around it, but mixing in Windows (or w/e) is a nightmare and gets 4000x harder when using XSplit since it doesn't handle audio sources very well.

Speaking of programs, if you can get Wirecast, go for it. Some prefer Xsplit, some prefer Wirecast. Really, neither of them are perfect, but they both offer some different advantages over each other. Working in layers is much easier on Wirecast, and working with sources in general is a dream compared to Xsplit. However Xsplit is easier to get off the ground and get going, and it's cheaper. Personally I started with XSplit, and made the switch to Wirecast.

The most important part of your stream isn't the FPS you set, it's the FPS that is output from the program. Peef might be referring to this, but he makes it seem like as long as you set it to 30fps then you're fine. Honestly for streaming a video game, always set it to 30 fps. There are rare situations when you can go up to 60fps, but it requires a stronger computer and a MUCH better internet connection. Modify your settings to make sure your stream outputs at the fps you aimed for it to, 30 or 60. Frame drops an fps or two down for a couple seconds is tolerable as people may not even notice it, but if you're seeing like 5+ fps lower consistently, rework your settings.

This is what you do to get the best with your settings:
-Bigger resolution looks nicer, that's it. However, bigger resolution requires more bitrate to look as good. Standard-ish resolutions in order are 240p, 384p, 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080p.
-Bitrate determines the amount of data going into your stream. Changing this determines how much data your stream uses, which is what works with your internet. More bitrate requires faster internet.
-FPS, I already touched on, just stick to 30 and use 60 if you can. This is the amount of frames processed on every second.

If your computer can't handle the stream you're doing, lowering the bitrate can help a little, but lowering your resolution is what will change this the most. If your internet can't handle the stream, the only thing you can change here is your bitrate to make a difference.

Now what bitrate you should use? Remember I said larger (rez) streams require more bitrate. Meaning if a 240p stream needs 600kbps to look awesome, a 480p stream needs (roughly) 1200kbps to look the same in the larger frame. Additionally, if you go from 30 to 60fps, since double the frames are being made, you need roughly double the bitrate to look the same - putting you at 2400kbps. See how all these things can change it?

Max upload you would ever need is 1mbps? FAR from wrong. If I go to a venue and see 1mbps I scoff at it and *sigh* at how much I'm going to have to lower my stream quality. First rule of thumb, whatever your venues internet is (do a speedtest.net check), use like 200kbps less than it, to account for fluctuating speeds. For Smash these days, you should really aim for 480p minimum for a stream (though lower can suffice if it's all you got). You can benefit from higher rez, 1080p isn't needed for smash streams at all, but you can benefit from 720p. Even though Smash is output at 480p, you can have it in a smaller window and have player and commentator cams and that all uses the extra space of 720p to it's advantage.

When I do 480p, if the internet can handle it, I like to do 1.8mbps (1800kbps). That will make it look awesome, with no choppiness in action or transitions. If you want to do 720p, don't dip below 1.5mbps, but I recommend something over 2mbps. You can certainly get away with 1mbps for 480p, but it is by no means the maximum.

How can what's on screen change this? All modern stream encoders work in VBR (variable bit rate). What you set at is the maximum (and can sometimes peak over it if needed). If the video is slow (full screen view of commentator cams), less bitrate is needed so it puts it lower. If you've got full screen gameplay, it needs more bitrate to keep it looking good so it goes closer to the maximum. There are more factors too. I'm not 100% sure if this still applied (I think it does though, but it def did on older codecs like MPEG2), different colors require extra bitrate, mainly red. Watch some older DVDs and you'll notice some very red areas look a bit blockier. This could explain why training stage on SF4 ran better, cause the VBR was lower cause the screen was a lot more basic greys instead of fast moving interactive (and red?) backgrounds.
 

Varist

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Austin
sorry chibo it's just that you're a really sneaky guy. really sneaky conniving kids with cancer-having guy. with ulterior motives and anti-peef sentiments and intimidating postbits beneath your new creepy rip off profile picture.

and idk but it's pretty gay of you to say something like this in such a lazy off-handed way.
a lot of what u said was incorrect or misleading

everything else is cool tho:phone:
like look at that lol. not a twisting of your words either. a chopping out of sentences.


edit: whoooa huge block of something i won't read tonight right above me like 3 minutes ago but i was responding to the post right above it

JUST SO YOU KNOW LOL
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
So Chibo post = MacBookPro's are good at streaming, and you think that you don't need that great of a computer. I probably just have a different notion of "pretty high-end gaming laptop." I figure computers that can play any game out right now on medium settings is pretty high end. I don't want to dissapoint people and say that every computer can stream when that just isn't the case. Have at the details, honestly, but there is an obvious difference in tone between your snide comments about how you think that a tiny and unimportant part of my guide is misleading, and something like: "Hey PEEF, MacBookPros arent that bad, and I think you don't even need a high end laptop to stream that bitrate and resolution. Could probably do it with a _____." Do you see the difference? It's funny how you just apoligized to me on facebook for your snarky comment saying "lol Team Smashbros isn't the biggest news to Melee streaming", and what do you do 2 days later?

PS: Why are you trying to stream a 480 game in 720???
 

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
I like how quote-mining is ok as long as you claim it's just "a chopping out of sentences."

So, I'm gathering from all of this that my video card isn't going to matter much? I have a good motherboard and CPU with enough RAM but my video card is very outdated.

Also, do people buy internal capture cards anymore, or do they all use the external ones? Maybe adding a list of capture cards with opinions on their quality to the topic post would help. I have a "Gamebridge," but my videos end up looking quite terrible, and I don't even stream them.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
I like how quote-mining is ok as long as you claim it's just "a chopping out of sentences."

So, I'm gathering from all of this that my video card isn't going to matter much? I have a good motherboard and CPU with enough RAM but my video card is very outdated.

Also, do people buy internal capture cards anymore, or do they all use the external ones? Maybe adding a list of capture cards with opinions on their quality to the topic post would help. I have a "Gamebridge," but my videos end up looking quite terrible, and I don't even stream them.
No your video card is not going to matter much. As far as capture cards, I only use a Dazzle DVC 100, which does the job just fine. There are really expensive capture cards out there that will help you actually grab the p of the 480p but at this point, it doesn't really matter. You'll need a really beast computer to make use of those component 60fps cards. Dazzles do pretty dang well, but they are not the best possible card assuming you have a monsterous usb 3.0 computer and a couple hundered extra bucks
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
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Messages
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So Chibo post = MacBookPro's are good at streaming, and you think that you don't need that great of a computer. I probably just have a different notion of "pretty high-end gaming laptop." I figure computers that can play any game out right now on medium settings is pretty high end. I don't want to dissapoint people and say that every computer can stream when that just isn't the case. Have at the details, honestly, but there is an obvious difference in tone between your snide comments about how you think that a tiny and unimportant part of my guide is misleading, and something like: "Hey PEEF, MacBookPros arent that bad, and I think you don't even need a high end laptop to stream that bitrate and resolution. Could probably do it with a _____." Do you see the difference? It's funny how you just apoligized to me on facebook for your snarky comment saying "lol Team Smashbros isn't the biggest news to Melee streaming", and what do you do 2 days later?

PS: Why are you trying to stream a 480 game in 720???
There was a LOT more than just that (the Macbook thing) in my post. I also went into details a lot about qualities since you seem to think 1mbps is all you need to get the job done.

And to explain about why 720p can be useful... Say you have on stream a box for your game, and a box for two player cams... The box for your Smash can be at it's full resolution while the rest of the 720p can be used for the player cams so to speak. Here's a diagram:

If you are streaming at 480p: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10362936/Pictures/livestream240p.png

You could have made the Smash a little bigger in that, but basically, there's no way you'll reach a 480p window inside a full 480p space when you're trying to make your screen have three videos properly. Also your external cams are being forced down to like 240p, both being downsized. All of your videos are being downsized. There's more you can get out of it.

Now bump it up to 720p:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10362936/Pictures/livestream720p.png

Now with all the room you have to work with, you can get your Smash window to its full 480p size getting the max quality out of it. And you have enough space to still have two full 320p widescreen windows for cameras. Even in this layout, your cameras are still getting downsized since they are likely 480p base, and any good cam is HD. This shows how you can even get use out of 1080p, but going to that won't make the game look better, more just the cameras you have (and sharper text overlays).

I like how quote-mining is ok as long as you claim it's just "a chopping out of sentences."

So, I'm gathering from all of this that my video card isn't going to matter much? I have a good motherboard and CPU with enough RAM but my video card is very outdated.

Also, do people buy internal capture cards anymore, or do they all use the external ones? Maybe adding a list of capture cards with opinions on their quality to the topic post would help. I have a "Gamebridge," but my videos end up looking quite terrible, and I don't even stream them.
It can matter. At the basics it won't of SD streaming and such however. Having mostly any dedicated graphics card is also much better than integrated. My desktop has a 4-5 year old dedicated graphics card (last part I need to upgrade) and it is better than my new laptop's integrated graphics. It can handle 1080p fine. If you have integrated gfx though, you may have some trouble streaming in HD.

People do use internal gfx cards. They generally have better compatibility, and honestly easier to work with since you have less stuff lying around, but the problem is that they can only be used on desktops. I personally opted for the external so I can buy one device to work on my desktop and laptop, but otherwise I would have went with desktop. They are also sometimes cheaper.

For SD streams:
-Dazzle isn't bad. It's mid-good range.
-Pinnacle Movie Box is good. It's one of the highest range SD cap cards imo, and the software it comes with for recording (Pinnacle Studio) produces absolutely amazing quality videos.
Dazzles are like $50ish, and Movie Boxes are closer to $100.

For HD streams:
Blackmagic Intensity - Comes in many variations: Pro, Shuttle, Shuttle Thunderbolt, or Extreme. Pro is internal for desktops. Shuttle is basically an external version of the pro. Shuttle TB is a thunderbolt version of the Shuttle. Extreme is a TB only device but is built like a freicken monster, using a full aluminum body and breakout cables. These are all roughly $200, except the Extreme is closer to $300.
 

ajp_anton

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
1,462
Location
Stockholm
You don't need full camera resolution while you're streaming smash. Streaming at 640x480 (which is already overkill for interlaced Melee) still gives you 214x480 of unused space on a widescreen window. In both of your screenshots you're wasting insane amounts of area.
Don't just throw resolution at the problem. Higher res with no added detail just needs higher bitrate for no benefit.

Apart from previewing the stream on XSplit, you don't need any graphics performance whatsoever. No idea how much it needs, but it can't be much...

Why would you need any special capture equipment for HD streams? It will still be max 480p, most likely 480i as p also needs a compatible TV.
I use cheap and crappy capture cards, I see nobody complaining about my quality.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
You don't need full camera resolution while you're streaming smash. Streaming at 640x480 (which is already overkill for interlaced Melee) still gives you 214x480 of unused space on a widescreen window. In both of your screenshots you're wasting insane amounts of area.
Don't just throw resolution at the problem. Higher res with no added detail just needs higher bitrate for no benefit.

Apart from previewing the stream on XSplit, you don't need any graphics performance whatsoever. No idea how much it needs, but it can't be much...

Why would you need any special capture equipment for HD streams? It will still be max 480p, most likely 480i as p also needs a compatible TV.
I use cheap and crappy capture cards, I see nobody complaining about my quality.
Hes just attempting to find something to disagree with at every possible moment, thats why.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
You guys are just trying to find things wrong with what I said and writing it off that it's me being salty (for what I don't know). Sorry for trying to give you guys advice <_<
 

Paju

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
255
Location
Lempäälä, Finland
You guys are just trying to find things wrong with what I said and writing it off that it's me being salty (for what I don't know). Sorry for trying to give you guys advice <_<
I'm pretty sure AJP doesn't need any advice from anyone when it comes to recording/streaming...
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Philadelphia
I didn't once reply to any of his posts to point anything wrong out. However his last post had some inaccuracies that I haven't touched on, because frankly I don't care at this point. I'm not out to prove anyone wrong, I just wanted to help correct any incorrect info out there.
 

Anth0ny

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
4,061
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Nice post. My two cents:

1. Framerate is definitely important. I'm not expecting 60fps, since only recently has guys like Sp00ky started streaming tournaments at 60fps, but a solid 30fps is not a lot to ask for when it comes to a big tournament. Even at small tournaments, it should be expected. This scene is 10 years old, we have no excuse.

Well, besides a ****ty internet connection >_>


2. Commentary. It would be ideal to have a knowledgeable commentator on the mic at all times. Again, I think our scene is mature enough that we could expect players to sit behind the mic for the majority of the tournament and not sound bored.

Ideally, we could mix some hype into the commentary at the same time (think Yipes and Chris Matrix). The game may be 10 years old, but it's still evolving. It's still very exciting.


So far, I think the closest we've gotten to a perfect Melee stream is the Apex stream. I was at the tournament, but I watched the replays and that stream was absolute quality. The only negative off the top of my head was the commentators sounding bored at times (grand finals, of course). I don't blame them, but I think they could have shown a little more enthusiasm.

But that's enough of that. The topic's been beat to death. Ultimately, a good stream requires disciplined, mature commentary (Yipes falls under this category still, imo), and a stable framerate. At this point, I think someone needs to step up and become a Sp00ky of the Smash community. Maybe in a couple of years...
 

Zone

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
2,483
Location
Pensacola, FL
Peef I have problems making sound work off a dazzle 100

In good quality I mean. What do you do?

Also when I use dazzle it seems I have to choose between game sound or commentary it won't let both happen.

Any guidance would be appreciated from anyone

:phone:
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
no commentary is pretty damn boring

even pretty bad commentary is better than nothing IMO
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Peef I have problems making sound work off a dazzle 100

In good quality I mean. What do you do?

Also when I use dazzle it seems I have to choose between game sound or commentary it won't let both happen.

Any guidance would be appreciated from anyone

:phone:
Honestly, I have never wanted to get sound off of my dazzle. I only capture the video, and then let the game sounds mix with commentary/crowd reaction naturally like it does in the tournament atmosphere. I know some people do it, but because I have never wanted to do it, I can't advise you on it =[
 

Zone

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
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Pensacola, FL
Honestly, I have never wanted to get sound off of my dazzle. I only capture the video, and then let the game sounds mix with commentary/crowd reaction naturally like it does in the tournament atmosphere. I know some people do it, but because I have never wanted to do it, I can't advise you on it =[
So do you just turn up the tv? And have it close to the headsets?

And no problem man, I'm just trying to HQ my ability to stream so I can help grow gaming communities I'm involved in like smash/sc2/MK9/ possibly Twisted M. Just got that today.

:phone:
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
So do you just turn up the tv? And have it close to the headsets?

And no problem man, I'm just trying to HQ my ability to stream so I can help grow gaming communities I'm involved in like smash/sc2/MK9/ possibly Twisted M. Just got that today.

:phone:
If you have the TV at a decent volume, and have a decent quality headset/mic at about the same distance you are, combined with a CD quality bitrate, it should sound just fine. I like to pipe my music directly to the recording program though.
 

Zone

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
2,483
Location
Pensacola, FL
Also if anyone can tell me some alternative I can do for high quality. ( I'm pretty good on cash)

I'd appreciate it. When I get home I'll upload my computer specs.

My Internet is 7mbs. But really it's closer to mid 6.5mbs.

:phone:
 

ajp_anton

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
1,462
Location
Stockholm
no commentary is pretty damn boring

even pretty bad commentary is better than nothing IMO
I think you could extend PEEF's advice to have someone read the stream chat. Instead of just chatting, this person should have a microphone. Maybe not to commentate the match, or at least not for that purpose, but just to talk to the chat people.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I think you could extend PEEF's advice to have someone read the stream chat. Instead of just chatting, this person should have a microphone. Maybe not to commentate the match, or at least not for that purpose, but just to talk to the chat people.
i admit i havent read much of this thread besides seeing weird old black dude meme/ I don't know **** about technology for streaming but I agree on just chatting with stream viewers, definitely makes more people stay esp if you make it entertaining
 
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