Don't use Ness (or Lucas) in tournaments

[AuraMarth]

Cort is too good.

 

[munkus beaver]

Let me put it this way

Say there is a character who can infinitely do this to ness/lucas

That is, unless ness/lucas DI correctly and jump at the right timing.

Shouldn't that character be allowed to use the tactic against ness/lucas? After all, it's ness/lucas' fault for not using the proper tactic against him.

Now if that character can use it, why can't the ones who can infinite? Clearly you can't just ban the technique.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Let me put it this way

Say there is a character who can infinitely do this to ness/lucas

That is, unless ness/lucas DI correctly and jump at the right timing.

Shouldn't that character be allowed to use the tactic against ness/lucas? After all, it's ness/lucas' fault for not using the proper tactic against him.

Now if that character can use it, why can't the ones who can infinite? Clearly you can't just ban the technique.

It's easy to apply this rule only to characters who can infinite, or who can do it to an unfair extent.

And this isn't just a weakness. It's not a weakness that was programmed in intentionally to be a character's weakness. It's a FLAW and a very unfair one at that. It's really something that shouldn't be there in the first place.

It doesn't contribute positively to the metagame like wavedashing did.

It wouldn't negatively effect any other characters if it wasn't there.

I see no reason why it shouldn't be banned.

And what's more, if this was banned, no character would have to "adjust their playing style" because before we knew about this chain throw, they were playing just fine against Ness and Lucas.

Normally, no character can reliably attempt to grab again after a grab break-out since it usually puts most characters at a stalemate in terms of frame advantage. So grabbing from a break is not a commonly used tactic. I very much doubt it would severely effect any character if they weren't allowed to do it.

 

[KiteDXX]

We played differently against other characters before groundbreaking discoveries, not just this pair. Knowledge is power. Once you learn something, you can't just ban it and assume the game will go back to how it was before we knew about it. You can't help but do something if it's incredibly useful in a situation where you can do it, and a disqualification, like it's been said, is a steep penalty.

If you look at a ruleset and see something along the lines of "You may not grab Ness or Lucas consecutively after they break out of your grab" posted as a rule and can't see how that's special treatment, something is wrong. Special treatment is unnecessary and should not be added to the game, especially with a penalty for doing it, to attempt to balance it. Optimistic at best.

 

[xAer]

not that im doubting or anything Cort, but could u please upload a video of you chaingrabbing both players (Ness/Lucas) played by any friend of yours.

i know the level 9 computer is faster than humans when trying to get grabs but i saw this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po

and i think... i barely think that u could do something after u get out of a grab.



A game is like real life , its hard to let go someone u love

Note: actually anyone that really knows how to make this chaingrab at a 100% can upload a video.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

We played differently against other characters before groundbreaking discoveries, not just this pair. Knowledge is power. Once you learn something, you can't just ban it and assume the game will go back to how it was before we knew about it. You can't help but do something if it's incredibly useful in a situation where you can do it, and a disqualification, like it's been said, is a steep penalty.

If you look at a ruleset and see something along the lines of "You may not grab Ness or Lucas consecutively after they break out of your grab" posted as a rule and can't see how that's special treatment, something is wrong. Special treatment is unnecessary and should not be added to the game, especially with a penalty for doing it, to attempt to balance it. Optimistic at best.

I see nothing wrong with that rule, since Ness and Lucas are the only two characters who are disadvantaged in such an unfair way. It's perfectly sensible that they should have special treatment in this case.

No other character is COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN by something small and annoying like this. This is not a normal situation here.

 

[KiteDXX]

The problem with the rule is that it shouldn't have to exist in the first place. This is a fault of Nintendo, and just because it's unintentional does not mean there should be a rule added to the system to cover for it. No matter how broken it is, it changes the flow of the battle by restricting something as easy as a grab and what you can do out of it. Falco's chaingrab is unavoidable up to a certain percentage, and he can get a full 40% or so out of it, when the person grabbing Ness can only get a mere 2-6% of jabs out of it and a throw only doing about 12% or less. Is it "legal" for Falco to chaingrab Ness up to a certain amount, and not for anyone else to be able to do the same amount using grabs? I forsee this ruling will lead to a couple of loopholes. I can't think of any at this hour of the night, but if anything can be exploited as a result of this ruling, it will be used against you, and the rule would need to be revised again.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

The problem with the rule is that it shouldn't have to exist in the first place. This is a fault of Nintendo, and just because it's unintentional does not mean there should be a rule added to the system to cover for it. No matter how broken it is, it changes the flow of the battle by restricting something as easy as a grab and what you can do out of it. Falco's chaingrab is unavoidable up to a certain percentage, and he can get a full 40% or so out of it, when the person grabbing Ness can only get a mere 2-6% of jabs out of it and a throw only doing about 12% or less. Is it "legal" for Falco to chaingrab Ness up to a certain amount, and not for anyone else to be able to do the same amount using grabs? I forsee this ruling will lead to a couple of loopholes. I can't think of any at this hour of the night, but if anything can be exploited as a result of this ruling, it will be used against you, and the rule would need to be revised again.

Sorry, but it's not a mere 2-6 damage and a throw. Most characters can smash attack from it, and others can do it infinitely, then smash attack for the KO.

falco's chain grab usually ends with a throw, since it consists only of throws. It's not an instant death KO like Marth's is.

 

[munkus beaver]

It actually is 2-3 damage per grab. If you end it on an actual throw or smash attack, that's different, since that won't chain or combo in the manner that you are crying foul. At low %s, you can only get in one jab per grab.

 

[Levitas]

And then a regrab, and another 2-3. And then suddenly you can pummel more per grab. And then you combo it into a tippered fsmash. And then I start wondering who tested this game.

 

[Ztarfish]

But Marth's infinite is 2-3 damage per jab repeated over many times, if under ideal situations and he does it from one end of FD to the other, smash out of grab means death.

the smash out of grab isn't the problem, because it's not actually unfair, really no different than Ness bthrowing at a high percentage. It's the free damage before the kill.

If a Marth player wants to use the smash out of grab technique to score a kill, more power to him, but for Christ's sake make him earn the damage.

 

[Levitas]

What did you think I meant?

 

[Ztarfish]

Me? I actually just posted that around the same time as you and didn't realize you said the same thing.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Oh, and you can't combo into a tippered Fsmash...but you can combo into a down smash, which has more KO power in general when untippered anyway.

 

[RaIph]

random post

 

[xAer]

Guys i know u were talking about something already, but try to not ignore last post in page 19 that i made.

since i belive there are people that still havent seen this chaingrab issue. People that joins Smashboards and only read the Threads and having nothing "useful" to say so they just dont bother posting anything, but still we/they read it, and learn a lot because of u guys.

Sorry if i'm kinda desperate , its just i want to see whats this all about, and not wantin to wait for 20 more pages till someone ask it again >_<

Sankiu~

 

[Levitas]

I think there were only 2 statements in your post unaddressed directly. The first is one we've been over. You cannot take an action at all before marth (or any of the other 7 characters) can regrab you.

Secondly, I do not have access to capture equipment currently, so I cannot help out with the vid against Lucas, but it's almost the same thing. A lucas DIing away on the break forces the marth to do a dash grab, so he'll move faster along the ground to the side. It's still broken against lucas, but it might not end in a KO all the time, whereas Ness is pretty screwed if he gets grabbed at all.

 

[MiraiGen]

Nessbounder, I'm not happy about this either, but keep in mind that the game comes as-is. You can't just ban aspects of the gameplay you don't approve of.

Stages and items are banned because they have "Off"Switches. Picking apart the gameplay is just, well, absurd. How in the world would you judge it?

"Ooh! That grab there is illegal."
"I threw him and caught him again."
"ILLEGAL!!"

It doesn't hold up.

 

[falco451]

Nessbounder, I'm not happy about this either, but keep in mind that the game comes as-is. You can't just ban aspects of the gameplay you don't approve of.

Stages and items are banned because they have "Off"Switches. Picking apart the gameplay is just, well, absurd. How in the world would you judge it?

"Ooh! That grab there is illegal."
"I threw him and caught him again."
"ILLEGAL!!"

It doesn't hold up.

Yeah it does. How hard is it to say, "Grabbing Ness/Lucas in the timeframe after a break is illegal?" It's very discrete. It's not like saying "Chainthrowing with DDD is banned" or something.

 

[Azuro]

This isn't gonna get banned, people...at least not just yet. Reason being, it only affects TWO characters that badly. If something like the IC CGs aren't banned, why should this get banned? As good as they'd be otherwise, it's just something they're gonna have to deal with. Only solution right now is find backups, deal with it, or just don't play Brawl. If it affected more characters, then yes, this would definitely be banned.

 

[Cort]

^ your post was good up until the last part which is completely untrue

 

[Smashbros_7]

Why are you so stubborn! Use your common sense, and play like you used to!
1 month ago, NOBODY did this! They would grab Ness, then THROW HIM! If Ness escaped, the grabber would retreat, or do something else.

Look at the old vids with Ness vs ??? or Lucas vs ??? those matches we're fair and awesome but now... This is just plain disgusting, nobody is change anything because they

A. Don't like Lucas or Ness
B. Are to Lazy.


We need people to TRY to get that banned! Or someone reach Sakurai.

 

[Azuro]

Why are you so stubborn! Use your common sense, and play like you used to!
1 month ago, NOBODY did this! They would grab Ness, then THROW HIM! If Ness escaped, the grabber would retreat, or do something else.

Look at the old vids with Ness vs ??? or Lucas vs ??? those matches we're fair and awesome but now... This is just plain disgusting, nobody is change anything because they

A. Don't like Lucas or Ness
B. Are to Lazy.


We need people to TRY to get that banned! Or someone reach Sakurai.

Where does having to like Lucas/Ness have to do with anything?

And Cort, what do you mean?

 

[Smashbros_7]

"You can't grab Ness or Lucas again immediately after they're released from a grab hold. You may lead up with any attack other than a grab."

That's not too hard to enforce, is it? For most other characters, trying to grab after a grab break is not something you'd do anyway because it puts them at a stalemate in terms of frame advantage. The timing between a break out an another grab is long enough for a player to not "accidentally" grab again. And players will still be getting free hits in on Ness and Lucas.

LISTEN TO THE MAN!

 

[Cort]

If this affected more characters, no it wouldn't get banned. You CAN'T ban something like this because as another poster said, it's very discrete.

In fact if every character could do this to every other character, Brawl would die and I would be a very happy person because it would be completely unplayable.

Also, what if I accidentally regrabbed a Ness, what would happen, NESSBOUNDER? There is no possible way to enforce this rule.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Im starting to think KiteDX secretly hates Ness. Lol

 

[hoopspr226]

If this affected more characters, no it wouldn't get banned. You CAN'T ban something like this because as another poster said, it's very discrete.

In fact if every character could do this to every other character, Brawl would die and I would be a very happy person because it would be completely unplayable.

Also, what if I accidentally regrabbed a Ness, what would happen, NESSBOUNDER? There is no possible way to enforce this rule.

Semantics but -

I think what he actually said was that you can't ban something like this because it ISNT discrete. Discrete means countable.

This is ambiguous and uncountable.

 

[Cort]

Woops, that's what I meant.

 

[WarranThad]

Super Street Fighter Two High Definition Remix looks sweeter every day =)))))).

 

[falco451]

If this affected more characters, no it wouldn't get banned. You CAN'T ban something like this because as another poster said, it's very discrete.

In fact if every character could do this to every other character, Brawl would die and I would be a very happy person because it would be completely unplayable.

Also, what if I accidentally regrabbed a Ness, what would happen, NESSBOUNDER? There is no possible way to enforce this rule.

You're never going to "accidentally" regrab someone. In the history of Brawl, where have you ever thought to try to grab someone after a breakout? In fact, you almost always complete a throw, and if not, your first instinct is not to go for another grab when you are both standing right there. That's not the proper strategy. So don't pretend that you're going to "accidentally" grab Ness or Lucas because:

1) You won't think of doing it
2) If the rule passes, you will KNOW beforehand, "I am fighting Ness/Lucas, this is banned anyway"

I bet if one of the precious "furries" was gimped like this, no one would hear the end of it.

 

[Cort]

Sure you can.

 

[Misto-Roboto]

You're a moron.

...

No, you're relying on them to suck.

...

If they continuously grab attack it is IMPOSSIBLE to jump break.

...

Wrong.

Cort, I'm sure you have a good point, but you really need to work on tact. Saying things like, "Here are the facts, if you don't agree with them, you're moron," doesn't really convince people your information holds merit. I know you're a lot smarter than to stoop to this.

 

[Yuna]

In fact if every character could do this to every other character, Brawl would die and I would be a very happy person because it would be completely unplayable.

You and me both, you and me both.

You're never going to "accidentally" regrab someone. In the history of Brawl, where have you ever thought to try to grab someone after a breakout? In fact, you almost always complete a throw, and if not, your first instinct is not to go for another grab when you are both standing right there. That's not the proper strategy. So don't pretend that you're going to "accidentally" grab Ness or Lucas because:

1) You won't think of doing it
2) If the rule passes, you will KNOW beforehand, "I am fighting Ness/Lucas, this is banned anyway"

Come up with good reasons why it should be banned other than "Ness and Lucas will be super-low tier!". Well boo-hoo!

I bet if one of the precious "furries" was gimped like this, no one would hear the end of it.

You must never have seen anyone good play against a Space Animal + Captain Falcon then. Marth had some crazy *** **** on them. One grab and wham! There went a good 40-60% of damage! If they were within KO %, one grab was all half of the cast required to KO them since upthrows usually allowed you to combo them to death. Mr. Game & Watch had the most broken 0-300% or so chaingrab on them as well IIRC. And must I bring up the all-powerful Wobble again?

Either you champion for all infinites to be banned or you're a hypocrital Mother-fanboy.

 

[Cort]

Cort, I'm sure you have a good point, but you really need to work on tact. Saying things like, "Here are the facts, if you don't agree with them, you're moron," doesn't really convince people your information holds merit. I know you're a lot smarter than to stoop to this.

nah, I'm not

 

[Misto-Roboto]

nah, I'm not

Guess I expected too much from you, eh?

 

[thesage]

Wobbling was banned at Pound 3 and no problems resulted from that. Saying it's too hard to enforce isn't a good argument. If somebody gets mad that the lost a match by doing something that's banned then they shouldn't complain and should've read the rules of the tournament.

The positive aspects of banning this far outweigh the negative aspects of banning.

I also would like to know why we banned the freeze glitch in melee. I mean even though it's an oversight of the developer it's still in the game. We should be allowed to do it at tournaments. All it does is make every character unplayable except Ice Climbers.

 

[Cort]

Guess I expected too much from you, eh?

yep

Wobbling was banned at Pound 3 and no problems resulted from that. Saying it's too hard to enforce isn't a good argument. If somebody gets mad that the lost a match by doing something that's banned then they shouldn't complain and should've read the rules of the tournament.

The positive aspects of banning this far outweigh the negative aspects of banning.

I also would like to know why we banned the freeze glitch in melee. I mean even though it's an oversight of the developer it's still in the game. We should be allowed to do it at tournaments. All it does is make every character unplayable except Ice Climbers.

wobbling and this are 2 completely separate tactics in the sense that you can actually sort of enforce the ban of wobbling by not allowing the player to ftilt with nana while popo is grabbing. grabbing someone again after they bust out of your grab is -not- enforceable by any means

jon (plank) is a nub (sheik) anyway and I laugh at any tournament hosts that ban wobbling (FC10 allowed it, SCC allowed it)

the freeze glitch was banned because people didn't understand it's mechanics and it was used by Jason (jv3x3? one of the bigger wigs at MLG) in his rule set that very many tournaments still use parts of today

I allow the freeze glitch to be used at the melee tournaments I helped run >_> as long as the player is competent about its mechanics it leads to the game being playable (and a stock to be taken)

 

[Yuna]

Wobbling was banned at Pound 3 and no problems resulted from that. Saying it's too hard to enforce isn't a good argument. If somebody gets mad that the lost a match by doing something that's banned then they shouldn't complain and should've read the rules of the tournament.

It can be enforced. I have never said it couldn't be. Now come up with good reasons for why it should be banned, not good reasons why it can be banned.

The positive aspects of banning this far outweigh the negative aspects of banning.

As in? And again, have you ever or are you now championing for the ban of the other infinites in this game (wall or no wall)?

I also would like to know why we banned the freeze glitch in melee. I mean even though it's an oversight of the developer it's still in the game. We should be allowed to do it at tournaments. All it does is make every character unplayable except Ice Climbers.

Because it froze your opponent. You literally won the moment that happened since there was nothing they could do. Why aren't you championing for unbanning Soulbreaker?

Infinites require you to actually perform them. You have a chance of them messing up.

 

[thesage]

wobbling and this are 2 completely separate tactics in the sense that you can actually sort of enforce the ban of wobbling by not allowing the player to ftilt with nana while popo is grabbing. grabbing someone again after they bust out of your grab is -not- enforceable by any means

How? You can just ban grabbing somebody after they break out. As you can only grab Ness and Lucas after they break out of a grab it doesn't affect any other characters.

jon (plank) is a nub (sheik) anyway and I laugh at any tournament hosts that ban wobbling (FC10 allowed it, SCC allowed it)

I mentioned Pound 3 because even though it banned wobbling, the tournament still ran smoothly (beside the venue change and **** like that).

It can be enforced. I have never said it couldn't be. Now come up with good reasons for why it should be banned, not good reasons why it can be banned.

It makes two characters unplayable.

As in? And again, have you ever or are you now championing for the ban of the other infinites in this game (wall or no wall)?

No those infinites don't make any characters unplayable. Either they affect all the characters, or are just too character specific that the character is still playable at tournaments. Banning a single technique makes two characters now tournament viable. If you don't ban the technique then the game still plays the same way except two characters aren't tournament viable. Since those characters wouldn't be used in tournaments this technique would never happen.

Because it froze your opponent. You literally won the moment that happened since there was nothing they could do. Why aren't you championing for unbanning Soulbreaker?

Soulbreaker required an item to do >_>;

Infinites require you to actually perform them. You have a chance of them messing up.

Anyone who messes up this infinite is mentally challenged. You win once you grab them.

Pre-posting comment: If Ness can only be cg'd by Marth and PT and Lucas only by Marth then I'm fine with allowing it. I actually am against banning wobbles in melee as it affects all characters, IC's can do other insane grab thingys, and is semi-hard to do. I just mentioned it to show that banning something like this wouldn't have a negative effect on how tournaments are run.

 

[Yuna]

It makes two characters unplayable.

Yes, and? Pretty much everything made Pichu unplayable. I guess we should've banned combos and chaingrabs against Pichu so he'd be less useles. Or, hey, we should ban gimping Yoshi's 2nd jump because he's so easily killed that way!

It's not broken if it only makes a few characters unplayable. Sheik alone was responsible for gimping half the cast in Melee. Did we ban her chaingrab? No.

No those infinites don't make any characters unplayable. Either they affect all the characters, or are just too character specific that the character is still playable at tournaments.

As opposed to this one which, at this moment, only three characters are confirmed to be able to do?

Banning a single technique makes two characters now tournament viable. If you don't ban the technique then the game still plays the same way except two characters aren't tournament viable. Since those characters wouldn't be used in tournaments this technique would never happen.

Inconsequential. It's in the game. The characters suck because of the way they're programmed. We can't ban stuff just because they gimp characters. We should only ban things when they break down the game itself, like force everyone to play only as a select few, not when they just force people to abandon a select few.

Pre-posting comment: If Ness can only be cg'd by Marth and PT and Lucas only by Marth then I'm fine with allowing it. I actually am against banning wobbles in melee as it affects all characters, IC's can do other insane grab thingys, and is semi-hard to do. I just mentioned it to show that banning something like this wouldn't have a negative effect on how tournaments are run.

How hard something is to do is of no consequence. How often do you see Chu Dat messing up his IC-****z?