Don't use Ness (or Lucas) in tournaments

[Earthbound360]

But Ness doesnt like Battlefield... that gives him a stage disadvtange now too...

And Munkus beaver, who cares if it does NEAR 0%. If its an infinite, 1% will do.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

But Ness doesnt like Battlefield... that gives him a stage disadvtange now too...

And Munkus beaver, who cares if it does NEAR 0%. If its an infinite, 1% will do.

That's funny, I seem to find Battlefield is great for firing off PK thunder 2's and using PK thunder in general.

Due to the arc that the tail covers on you when you're shooting yourself, and the positioning of the platforms, it's actually quite easy to trap people in the tail for PK thunder KOs.

 

[Amide]

This makes Ness and Lucas much worse. That being said, Ice Climbers could infinite someone in melee, but were they top tier? Uhh, not really. They still weren't the best. And the other way around, Lucas and Ness won't be the worst in Brawl.

 

[munkus beaver]

Wolf's best move comes out extremely fast and has greater range than his grab! It's rather moot since you could just as easily downsmash instead of grabbing!

And the point is that if you'redoing 1% on average per grab and I mess up on grab 14, it's not like I'm part of some crazy broken conspiracy. It's very little reward and it has a lot of chances for error. Most characters are better off smacking once, throwing, then tech chasing. I know meta knight is, I did more damage from one tech chase than I did from charizards 6 grabs.

And hell, Falco can get most characters up 40% by using his chain grab. This is small potatoes.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Wolf's best move comes out extremely fast and has greater range than his grab! It's rather moot since you could just as easily downsmash instead of grabbing!

And the point is that if you'redoing 1% on average per grab and I mess up on grab 14, it's not like I'm part of some crazy broken conspiracy. It's very little reward and it has a lot of chances for error. Most characters are better off smacking once, throwing, then tech chasing. I know meta knight is, I did more damage from one tech chase than I did from charizards 6 grabs.

And hell, Falco can get most characters up 40% by using his chain grab. This is small potatoes.

Wolf's down smash normally can be sheilded. Grabs can't.

And Metaknight can use his Ftilt or down smash after a forced frontal break, giving him much more damaging options than a tech chase which has a potential for no follow-up at all.

And then there is Ivysaur, who doesn't even need to move. Just stand there mashing Z and there's no way you can go wrong.

 

[munkus beaver]

A few things there, champ.

Downsmash can be shielded, sure, but wolf's running grab and approach to grab is hardly good, especially against ness. It's much easier to hit a good ness with downsmash than a grab.

You get a lot more damage from any successful tech chase. If you let them go and do a down smash, you're still missing out on the damage from the throw, and you're putting DR on your downsmash. At worst I can tech chase into a dash attack, f-air, or upsmash.

And you can't spam grab and have this work, that's crazy. You do that, and you'll end up shielding. Charizard doesn't need to move either, but it's still possible to screw up the timing and have ness jump away to his freedom.

 

[Masky]

And then there is Ivysaur, who doesn't even need to move. Just stand there mashing Z and there's no way you can go wrong.

Ivysaur needs to move if Ness DIs away from Ivysaur. Read my last post on the CG list topic.

 

[NoNessNoProblem]

i think this thread is full of **** and im not swicthn mains. basically this thread is saying dont use ness cuz he cant win major tourneys so dont waste your time trying to get real good with him. ive played some of the bettr marths online and i havent been dominated or such.

 

[Proverbs]

I hope you guys appreciate this: I made an effort for an unspoken rule to be established at least with Marth players, as I main him myself.

Here it is:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167257


By the way, I can anticipate people on both sides thinking this idea is stupid. Let me say this in advance: it is my decision that, as a Marth player, I will not use this technique for an infinite grab.

 

[Ztarfish]

And people say Chivalry is dead xP

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

i think this thread is full of **** and im not swicthn mains. basically this thread is saying dont use ness cuz he cant win major tourneys so dont waste your time trying to get real good with him. ive played some of the bettr marths online and i havent been dominated or such.

Online doesn't mean anything. Sticking your head in the sand and being stubborn won't help this situation get any better.

And Proverbs, my respect for Marth players will go way up if you can get people to take up that rule.

 

[Tyr_03]

@ munkus beaver

It's called sit there and camp until Ness is forced to approach. Wolf can easily outcamp Ness as many characters can. When you approach, they shield, they grab you, you die. Defensive game beats offensive everytime in Brawl. And considering how many of the higher ranked characters have this chaingrab to some extent or another, Lucas and Ness are quite screwed as long as it isn't banned.

 

[munkus beaver]

Really? I mean REALLY?

Wolf can camp ness?

Who can heal himself off of the blaster shots?

 

[Ztarfish]

Who cares about healing their opponent if 0 to 300 is just a button press away.

 

[Proverbs]

Once again, Zstarfish, nicely put. Unfortunately, even if Wolf gets Ness to 100%--if getting him back to 0% with lasers makes him approach for an easy 300%, you'd better believe he'll take it.

 

[KiteDXX]

i think this thread is full of **** and im not swicthn mains. basically this thread is saying dont use ness cuz he cant win major tourneys so dont waste your time trying to get real good with him. ive played some of the bettr marths online and i havent been dominated or such.

Nobody is telling you to switch mains.

They are saying Ness and Lucas are nowhere near as viable or practical in a tournament environment, not your average online battle, not your average casual battle with your friend. Nobody is forcing you to do anything; it's your decision if you want to change mains because of this, and the people who want to win will be the ones doing it.

Quite frankly, nobody cares what you have done, because in a tournament environment, those players can and will shut down Ness/Lucas with these exploitable elements, and you will not be able to stop them, primarily because most of them are either infinite or can be linked into powerful attacks guaranteedly, and that the technique cannot be reasonably banned. Like we've said so many other times, it's far more practical to simply let two characters go to the bottom of the barrel than open a can of worms trying to enforce a rule to prevent two characters from suffering to bad programming. Nothing will fix something that is broken by nature without being an applied handicap to the person who chose not to run the extra mile using a character such as Ness/Lucas.

Go back to your little circle of friends and win with Ness; the tournament scene will move on without you. Remembering who created this topic, you would see that this only concerns you if you play at tournament level, or actually play to win, much like the topic creator, who both played in tournaments and won many battles in those tournaments.

In short, you are deluding yourself. Snap out of it, because you're sounding like a complete idiot, no two ways about it.

EDIT: If you really want to use Ness in a decent conditioned environment, try the doubles setting, preferably with Team Attack [ON]. Ness will not be grabbed indefinitely in that environment, can use the teammates projectiles as restoration (not practical but possible), and can possibly get back to the stage with PKT2 with the help of their ally gimping their recovery upwards so they can reuse PKT2. Singles-wise, yeah, it's unfortunate that they had to suffer, but Ness/Lucas aren't looking very highly on the tier list with the current conditions.

 

[Cocoashadow]

This kinda sucks

 

[Thunderpup]

Pretty depressing information.

I'm pretty sure this will be used against me casually as well. My friends will laugh and call it broken but as soon as we're last stock they'll be tapping z faster than the screen can stack each 1%.

 

[Conda]

You guys are giving up too early. We're in the process of fighting for a ban.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

You guys are giving up too early. We're in the process of fighting for a ban.

M2K tried to get it banned. The back room said "no".

If someone as high up as M2K can't sway the back room, I don't see how anyone else can.

 

[thesage]

Meh, we can host our own touranments and ban it. They can just do what they did at Pound 3 with wobbling, only allow one hit.

 

[KiteDXX]

Too bad wobbling was highly impractical to be abused, making it useless to try and abuse it in the first place.

Despite this being something seriously game-breaking for 2 characters, it will not get banned. To those who want a ban, tell me how you could possibly enforce that without pure abuse of it.

Ban chaining after 3rd grab? They'll do it 2 times and follow the second time with a finisher attack, every time. Ban after X amount of damage? Unless you've got people watching every match like a hawk, that won't work. Ban grabs? I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to suggest this, so we'll leave it at that.

 

[Wave⁂]

Life sucks
Im going to have to change one of my taunts to "NO DEATH GRABBING!" now

I am going to see if I can get this banned. I dont care how much you guys say it wont work and how much you say "I told you so" if I fail, but I still wanna get this banned.

EB360, from what I remember about your "big blocks of text" back in the day when we were arguing about Ness's recovery, I don't doubt you'll find a way to make this less sucky.

If marth is moving forward, he'll reach the edge of the stage eventually. .:. it isn't an infinite.
I need to find a competant partner to try this with <_<

Also, Snake (maybe others) have an infinite edge "chain grab" where he dthrows you so you fall off the edge with no invul frames, so he can regrab your head and dthrow again. However, fastfalling is effective against this.

Hell, I would much rather slap, down-throw, then tech chase than do this silly 'chaingrab' across the stage. More damage racked up faster.

Don't double post.

THe timing isnt very strict at all. Its very easy to do, which is why this should be banned

Agrred. A lot.

This kinda sucks

This sums everything up pretty well.

Also, I HATE IT when people read the first 11 words in a thread on reply to it.

 

[Tyr_03]

I'm behind anyone willing to fight for banning this. I think it would be easy enough to ban it completely by saying you either have to throw them or you can't regrab immediately afterward. Sure they can still get a free smash attack off but we can work with that. That would atleast leave us with a fighting chance. Surely the backroom has enough sense to realize how broken this is?

 

[Conda]

I guess they aren't as respectable as they make themselves out to be.

 

[munkus beaver]

Who cares about healing their opponent if 0 to 300 is just a button press away.

Once again, Zstarfish, nicely put. Unfortunately, even if Wolf gets Ness to 100%--if getting him back to 0% with lasers makes him approach for an easy 300%, you'd better believe he'll take it.

Hi, are you literate? Because I do believe we've already covered that all wolf can really do is connect a smash, he can't do anything resembling a chain-grab.

 

[KiteDXX]

I'm behind anyone willing to fight for banning this. I think it would be easy enough to ban it completely by saying you either have to throw them or you can't regrab immediately afterward. Sure they can still get a free smash attack off but we can work with that. That would atleast leave us with a fighting chance. Surely the backroom has enough sense to realize how broken this is?

Despite how easy that sounds, that's not an easy ban to enforce. If the Ness/Lucas breaks out of the grab, is that a disqualification? If they're forced to play a certain way versus a specific character, that alone is a problem in itself. That's not a ban, that's a handicap to cater towards bad programming.

The Back Room maybe take note of this, but honestly, do they have an real options for this? You cannot enforce a ban like this unless you have everyone watching the match and making the calls instead of the players. That then becomes a matter of trust; it's only a matter of time before a real dispute shows up and it's up to the judges who goes on, not the better player. It's more the person who followed the rules in this case.

I guess they aren't as respectable as they make themselves out to be.

There's a difference between appeasing Ness/Lucas players and being practical about the viability of a ban on this. The theory is wishful at best, but it will not be put into action. More than half the cast of characters in Melee weren't even remotely usable in the top levels of play due to the extremes of tiers, and nobody complains there. Remember, this is tournament play. Are you willing to play for money with a character that is at a severe disadvantage to the point where it had to be enforced how to play against them? You can play favorites all you want, but your odds of winning under such conditions are slim.

 

[thesage]

The wobbling ban was easily enforced @ Pound 3. This shouldn't be a problem as it's obvious what the person is doing. At any tournament there's bound to be somebody watching your match. This is different than banning camping as many things that look like camping can actually be used for this. The only time a character would let the other escape is to grab them again or hit them with an attack.

 

[DarkKnight077]

Well, you should ask the top players of each coast what they think of it. I think Gimpy might go for a ban down where I live though, although I'm not sure. Kind of sucks for you guys and me. Ness is good in this game and now they go ruin it. =/

Bleh, anyways I hope you guys can ban the move in some regions.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Too bad wobbling was highly impractical to be abused, making it useless to try and abuse it in the first place.

Despite this being something seriously game-breaking for 2 characters, it will not get banned. To those who want a ban, tell me how you could possibly enforce that without pure abuse of it.

Ban chaining after 3rd grab? They'll do it 2 times and follow the second time with a finisher attack, every time. Ban after X amount of damage? Unless you've got people watching every match like a hawk, that won't work. Ban grabs? I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to suggest this, so we'll leave it at that.

"You can't grab Ness or Lucas again immediately after they're released from a grab hold. You may lead up with any attack other than a grab."

That's not too hard to enforce, is it? For most other characters, trying to grab after a grab break is not something you'd do anyway because it puts them at a stalemate in terms of frame advantage. The timing between a break out an another grab is long enough for a player to not "accidentally" grab again. And players will still be getting free hits in on Ness and Lucas.

 

[Ztarfish]

Hi, are you literate? Because I do believe we've already covered that all wolf can really do is connect a smash, he can't do anything resembling a chain-grab.

Sorry what did you say? I can't read letters.

Aside from that ******** insult, as people have been saying there are times when you should downsmash or whatever, and there are times when a shield grab is viable, meaning you can exploit the death grab for as long as feasible and then return to whatever Wolf strategy you had on hand.

Honestly I don't really understand what you're arguing.

 

[Ztarfish]

"You can't grab Ness or Lucas again immediately after they're released from a grab hold. You may lead up with any attack other than a grab."

That's not too hard to enforce, is it? For most other characters, trying to grab after a grab break is not something you'd do anyway because it puts them at a stalemate in terms of frame advantage. The timing between a break out an another grab is long enough for a player to not "accidentally" grab again. And players will still be getting free hits in on Ness and Lucas.

Sorry, I accidentally grabbed that Ness 8 times in a row.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Sorry, I accidentally grabbed that Ness 8 times in a row.

That's silly. As I said before, there's enough time inbetween a release and a grab to not make that mistake. One strike and you're out.

 

[thesage]

Sorry, I accidentally grabbed that Ness 8 times in a row.

Oh whoops srry, I accidentally performed the IC's freeze glitch on you.

 

[NoNessNoProblem]

Lets just see what happens. I want to see some videos of some Ness's in RL Tourneys since obviously Online doesn't mean **** to some people in this thread. If your still using ness GL and if your switching GL to you as well. Lets see how this plays out

 

[munkus beaver]

Sorry what did you say? I can't read letters.

Aside from that ******** insult, as people have been saying there are times when you should downsmash or whatever, and there are times when a shield grab is viable, meaning you can exploit the death grab for as long as feasible and then return to whatever Wolf strategy you had on hand.

Honestly I don't really understand what you're arguing.

Maybe I was unclear (I wasn't).

Wolf can't do

any sort of chain grab

to Ness or Lucas.

All he can really do with the 'death grab' is a down smash, or perhaps a forward smash.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Lets just see what happens. I want to see some videos of some Ness's in RL Tourneys since obviously Online doesn't mean **** to some people in this thread. If your still using ness GL and if your switching GL to you as well. Lets see how this plays out

Aevin already lost a tournament because of this. He told me on MSN the other day that some guy who knew about the chain grab quickly switched to Marth, resulting in his loss.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Maybe I was unclear (I wasn't).

Wolf can't do

any sort of chain grab

to Ness or Lucas.

All he can really do with the 'death grab' is a down smash, or perhaps a forward smash.

Yes, Wolf is one of the "safe" characters who can't continue the dash grab without being spot-dodged.

 

[NoNessNoProblem]

Aevin already lost a tournament because of this. He told me on MSN the other day that some guy who knew about the chain grab quickly switched to Marth, resulting in his loss.

He won because his opponent used Marth or did he lose because he didn't know how to face Marth and his insane grab?

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

He won because his opponent used Marth or did he lose because he didn't know how to face Marth and his insane grab?

He lost because Marth grabbed him and infinited him to death.

Even though he was well aware of the chain grab. It's not something you can avoid for the whole match without sacrificing your playstyle.