Don't let Salem win again

[Demna]

Did the match up happen? And who won?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Haven't been at the same tournament yet.

 

[Demna]

Haven't been at the same tournament yet.

You're arguably the best Pikachu in the world and your playstyle is amazing. But do you really think you can win a set against Salem? Why?

It's gonna take more than an edgeguard to kill his ZSS

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Because I'm one of, if not the best person against ZSS in the world in a MU where Pikachu is advantaged and I beat him the last time we played at SKTAR. He didn't get significantly better after SKTAR. He definitely refined his play as did I, and because Salem's win at Apex was conveniently seemingly impossible matches with people that couldn't really play the Match-up at all.

Again, not ****-talking the guy because he ****ing won and nobody can take that away from him, but that doesn't mean he didnt' get lucky~

 

[Demna]

Because I'm one of, if not the best person against ZSS in the world in a MU where Pikachu is advantaged and I beat him the last time we played at SKTAR. He didn't get significantly better after SKTAR. He definitely refined his play as did I, and because Salem's win at Apex was conveniently seemingly impossible matches with people that couldn't really play the Match-up at all.

Again, not ****-talking the guy because he ****ing won and nobody can take that away from him, but that doesn't mean he didnt' get lucky~

I know that you didn't make the thread just because salem won, whoever thinks so is basically close-minded and/or are jealous of you.

I assume you think that you're the best at the ZSS MU due to your experiance with your brother, NickRiddle. However, Salem as voted by the majority is superior to Nick Riddle with ZSS. You might argue that you did beat him at SKTAR, but he was unfamiliar with the Pikachu MU.

In my opinion, Salem is better now than when you defeated him and he now has experiance against the Pikachu MU. I'm not implying that you're going to lose, but be careful, don't let over-confidence be the reason of your defeat.

 

[Exdeath]

I'm know that you didn't make the thread just because salem won, whoever thinks so is basically close-minded and/or are jelous of you.

I assume you think that you're the best at the ZSS MU due to your experiance with your brother, NickRiddle. However, Salem as voted by the majority is superior to Nick Riddle with ZSS. You might argue that you did beat him at SKTAR, but he was unfamiliar with the Pikachu MU.

In my opinion, Salem is better now than when you defeated him and he now has experiance against the Pikachu MU. I'm not implying that you're going to lose, but be careful, don't let over-confidence be the reason of your defeat.

You're underestimating how good Nick Riddle is by quite a bit.

 

[Demna]

You're underestimating how good Nick Riddle is by quite a bit.

What did I say that made me underestimate Nick Riddle? Stating that Salem is superior, as voted by the majority, is a fact and doesn't mean that Nick Riddle is ultimately weaker. Nick Riddle is still the 2nd best ZSS and close to Salem's strength with ZSS.

Salem did win Apex 2013, so underestimating him in a MU will only lead you to your defeat.

 

[Yunior597]

So ask yourself one questio guys...

Have ever Salem won a tournament since apex? No... and probably won't do it for now... even keitaro and nakat defeated him lately. He won apex because he had good luck and bracket.

 

[Keitaro]

He is really good, but certainly beatable if you can get around his playstyle. I don't think he got lucky at Apex, but Salem is pretty damn good against Metaknights and Marths no matter what level they are on.

In a way it seems like he did get a bracket that favored him, however I can't imagine that same bracket favoring anyone else at the same tournament. He certainly has gotten better though now that he can take multiple sets of players like M2K and ZeRo which he couldn't beat a year ago, and also 2-0 Mr. R compared to losing to him at Apex 2012.

I think the chances of Salem doing well are increased when fighting players from OOR and OOC like he did often at Apex so I can see him winning again, but it still isn't too likely.

 

[NAKAT]

Seriously?.....

 

[Exdeath]

This:

Nick Riddle is still the 2nd best ZSS and close to Salem's strength with ZSS.

is unrelated to this:

Salem did win Apex 2013

I could write essays on the inaccuracies of elimination brackets and why Salem is as effective in tournament, but it ultimately boils down to this: Winning tournament(s) is the most objective standard to judge player skill by, but there is no true objective to judge match-up experience. A certain Red 'Berd has said that natural talent is more important than match-up experience, and as loathe as I am to agree with such a crude and uninteresting opinion, Brawl's metagame tends to lean toward this view.

As for bracket luck, a reverse-example of Salem would be Ally, who just so happens to run into those players at just about every APEX, while Salem avoided them. DEHF's victory is a better example for Salem's bracket luck since he not only managed to dodge the dangerous s/s, but he also had an who prevented a second set with M2K/Ally and then provided him with his then-best possible character match-up for the finals.

Whether you think that Salem and/or Nick Riddle is/are overrated is nothing more than theory, and Brawl ultimately lacks a truly consistent and objective system to determine the skill of individuals. I would argue that this is its fatal flaw as a competitive game, although that won't prevent people from utilizing it as a competitive medium, nor do I wish it to -- I am interested in Brawl theory.

 

[Demna]

This:



is unrelated to this:



I could write essays on the inaccuracies of elimination brackets and why Salem is as effective in tournament, but it ultimately boils down to this: Winning tournament(s) is the most objective standard to judge player skill by, but there is no true objective to judge match-up experience. A certain Red 'Berd has said that natural talent is more important than match-up experience, and as loathe as I am to agree with such a crude and uninteresting opinion, Brawl's metagame tends to lean toward this view.

As for bracket luck, a reverse-example of Salem would be Ally, who just so happens to run into those players at just about every APEX, while Salem avoided them. DEHF's victory is a better example for Salem's bracket luck since he not only managed to dodge the dangerous s/s, but he also had an who prevented a second set with M2K/Ally and then provided him with his then-best possible character match-up for the finals.

Whether you think that Salem and/or Nick Riddle is/are overrated is nothing more than theory, and Brawl ultimately lacks a truly consistent and objective system to determine the skill of individuals. I would argue that this is its fatal flaw as a competitive game, although that won't prevent people from utilizing it as a competitive medium, nor do I wish it to -- I am interested in Brawl theory.

I never stated that the reason of Salem's superiority to NickRiddle is due to his Apex 2013 victory. Salem was decided to be NickRiddle's superior due to his overall matches. However, this isn't about NR and Salem. It's mostly about Salem and Esam's MK.

Now, you stated that Salem got very lucky because he avoided ICs and Pikachus. However, you really couldn't tell the match's outcome unless it happened. Salem might have been able to win against any. I'm not trying to be one-sided here, but you can't judge Salem as lucky due to brackets.

I predict that Esam's Pikachu has a higher chance of winning against Salem's ZSS. However, I don't think that Esam's MK will beat Salem's ZSS, and I also think that Esam won't play as good as M2K when he played Salem in the GF.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You guys are just talking about theory versus practice.
ESAM knows the theory behind MK properly edgeguarding ZSS due to his experience against his brother, and he probably couldn't perform it on a match, probably not even against his brother, all because he's not really proficient with Meta Knight to begin with, but expects other MKs to do it correctly... And when he saw they don't, he wrote up this guide.
If they are to fight ESAM probably won't win with his Meta Knight even if he covers Salem's recovery well enough, but any good MK who decides to learn and use this knowledge could potentially even make ZSS' recovery to look bad.
I don't know if this is so hard to understand or people just go off the tangent of the issue.

btw, Salem and NR fought on APEX 2012. Guess who won.
Not saying that one result reflects who is better, but it's the only record of a direct comparison.
Also, I think, too, that brackets are not the best way to determine who is better outside of the distinction between first to fourth places, but I do not think that's Brawl's fault.

 

[Exdeath]

I never stated that the reason of Salem's superiority to NickRiddle is due to his Apex 2013 victory. Salem was decided to be NickRiddle's superior due to his overall matches. However, this isn't about NR and Salem.

Now, you stated that Salem got very lucky because he avoided ICs and Pikachus. However, you really couldn't tell the match's outcome unless it happened. Salem might have been able to win against any. I'm not trying to be one-sided here, but you can't judge Salem as lucky due to brackets.

Actually my contention was solely Nick Riddle vs. Salem. I didn't directly address the rest. When I said "Those" players, I failed to define what I was referring to (I was only partly awake while typing it, hence the numerous errors in that post). Although (ESAM) and (Vinnie) do have dominant records vs. Salem and are included, I was actually referring to players who tend to perform particularly and consistently well against a player for whatever reason (e.g. ESAM vs. Ally). Ally has a couple of characters that give him an issue, which then subsequently defeated him (e.g. , , etc.). Salem has a much larger number of players who present such a threat, which gives him a higher chance of running into them in bracket. In this sense, Salem can be seen to be luckier than Ally at that particular tournament, whereas Ally can be seen to be luckier than Salem at the previous tournament (DRN out-placed Salem at the previous APEX).

As for ESAM vs. Salem, I believe that ESAM has both more talent and both more and better match-up experience (living with one of the top 2 s in the world vs. Anti's pocket ). I hope that ESAM's doesn't win because of what it means, but that's still fine with me since it gives Florida more bragging rights.

btw, Salem and NR fought on APEX 2012. Guess who won.

I dearly hope that you aren't using this in earnest.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

The **** just happened...?

I said my MK is probably going to lose, BTW, but I'll be damned if I don't edgeguard him better than any MK sans Nairo/Seibrik. My MK clearly isn't as optimal or as good as any of the other top MKs, but I've had the high-level MU experience for the past 2 years, which people are now starting to get. My MK isn't BAD by any means, but compared to people who actually play the character it is obviously inferior.

@Keitaro: That's exactly what I'm saying. That bracket would have been the hardest bracket for practically anybody...except Salem, purely due to lack of MU experience against top level ZSS. Watching the sets it was clear that nobody he played against knew what he was doing, short of Mikeneko and kinda Ramin, but that MU is probably in ZSS favor so it didn't matter (Ramin did get gimmicked out last stock game 2 because he clearly could have up-b'd either the 3rd jab or the down-b and chose not to).

Also, this isn't a ****ing Nick Riddle vs Salem thing. As of now there is NO evidence to support that NR is better besides people in Florida going BUT SALEM IS DOING FLASHY THINGS AND STUPID THINGS HIT PEOPLE. I obviously agree with that (****** getting hit by side-b all day 40 frames let's go) but I'm not stupid enough to be like NOPE NR IS BETTER CLEARLY, especially considering that Salem is slowing down his play and making it more like NR's in general but his technical consistency is FAR better than my brother's. Once Salem gets his reads to NR's level he will be kinda scary because he will be able to transition between the fast pressure-based style, and then when people are freaking out because of it he can slow down and destroy people with reads.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

This is sad. I never thought someone could be worse and more of a ****** then Xyro. Good job proving me wrong ESAM

 

[Xyro77]

This is sad. I never thought someone could be worse and more of a ****** then Xyro. Good job proving me wrong ESAM

Git off hiz wang dawg and reelize da truthf. Salum winning apexy was a flukesies. it aint jus mii seaing it.

Calm down, mr slappy.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I dearly hope that you aren't using this in earnest.

I said I wasn't doing that.
In any case, I really could have said something to stop the silly discussion lol

Anyway, I'll watch this thread a bit more strictly from this point on.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

look at the end of the day this whole discussion is moot


Salem will never mm ME

he's far to scared, i've tried offering to mm him countless times both before apex and at apex

i think that says enough right there


Although i'd be happy to be proven wrong, i would love for Salem to mm me so everyone can see what happens when he plays vs a MK that ACTUALLY knows the M/U

 

[Keitaro]

For the past 4 to 5 years I would usually never money match someone even if I was 99% sure I could beat him. Salem could be like me and simply not like money matching people normally.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Sure, expect to lose whether you're using MK or Pikachu.

something tells me that isn't the case with Salem Keitaro

 

[Demna]

something tells me that isn't the case with Salem Keitaro

How can you tell? Do you have any proof?

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Above he just accepted the MM with ESAM

So he should clearly have no issue MMing me either

 

[Demna]

Above he just accepted the MM with ESAM

So he should clearly have no issue MMing me either

With Esam it's something else, it's more than just a MM, it's basically a set of who's better and if Esam can outplay other MKs against Salem.
He might not want to MM just for the money, he might seek a reason. And there is no reason why he should MM you.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i mean, there is a reason


it would put an end to the whole "was his apex win a fluke"

if he does well against me (i wont even say beat me) then i will agree his win wasn't "a fluke" because of other mk's inexperience

but if he gets bodied by me (as i imagine such will happen) then there is room to believe otherwise

 

[Keitaro]

Beating you would not at all prove his Apex win wasn't a fluke though. There is a chance he may be scared, but I think it is more likely that he thinks he has no reason to money match you.

Salem has a losing record to Esam so there is likely something to gain in his mind from beating Esam in a money match.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

shaddap keitaro it would prove everything


geez


go host a national or something

 

[Demna]

shaddap keitaro it would prove everything


geez


go host a national or something

Insulting someone you're discussing with shows your inability to rebuttal and proves your loss in an argument.

If you really want a MU against Salem, then enter a tournament Salem will enter in the future and face him there. It's better than bragging about your MK and your skill without presenting any proof of how good you are.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

DAMN, GET CALLED OUT LIKE A ***** SEIBRIK

But yeah, I'm probably gonna lose the MM to Salem lol, idk why people are so angry in this thread.

Also, Keitaro, Seibrik kinda bodying Salem in friendlies at SKTAR would lead to thinking that he is scared of him (I know friendlies don't mean blah blah i get it)

 

[Keitaro]

lol Seibrik just joking with me

Interesting to hear he was beating Salem though, however that was a while ago. Salem did certainly get better since then although I don't know how much he got better. At that time he did almost beat M2K but beginning with Apex he has been able to beat M2K multiple times with some sets not being close.

 

[Demna]

lol Seibrik just joking with me

Interesting to hear he was beating Salem though, however that was a while ago. Salem did certainly get better since then although I don't know how much he got better. At that time he did almost beat M2K but beginning with Apex he has been able to beat M2K multiple times with some sets not being close.

Edit: anwser found.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It doesn't matter how much better you get if somebody understands a character to the point where **** doesn't surprise you. Not saying that will happen with me/Seibrik, but just as a whole I won't really get surprised by ZSS. I can still get outplayed, but I won't get gimmicked.

 

[infiniteV115]

But what if you just get hit by sideB over and over huh





























What are you going to do then

 

[Demna]

You really can't say that Salem can't suprise you, understanding a character a 100% doesn't mean that the person playing with that character can't suprise you. You might get hit at certain places/times you least expect, you might get gimmicked as well, you can't be a 100% assured (offstage downsmash to downB spike)

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I won't get surprised by that though. If he hits me with stuff he hits me with stuff, but it's not like I'm gonna be like WOW I COMPLETELY DIDN'T EXPECT THAT considering most ZSS follow-ups are pretty standard in certain situations. Standard for a reason though, they are the best ones and most reliable, so there really isn't a point in going to anything else. Besides, assuming I'm at less than like 60% I can spam up-b and recover from a down-b spike because pikachu is silly.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Edit: Smashboards really needs to stop double posting for me -_-

 

[ぱみゅ]

So... I guess this whole thing is moot until SKTAR.

 

[Demna]

The guy that was really suprised at the down-B spike was Mr.R, he was mostly suprised of his technical error when he up-B'd into the other side and got gimmicked as a result... Poor guy.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

its prolly moot until well after sktar considering salem wont ever mm me

so at this point i'm just biding my time until we happen to run into each other in bracket


-pstpstpst- keitaro, hook me up with that fixed bracket
u know who i want

 

[infiniteV115]

The guy that was really suprised at the down-B spike was Mr.R, he was mostly suprised of his technical error when he up-B'd into the other side and got gimmicked as a result... Poor guy.

The biggest error he made was not deciding to land his guaranteed upB that Marth gets on ZSS whenever ZSS jab2s him
And then the 2nd biggest error was wasting his 2nd jump somewhere in that string.