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Done with characters from Melee?

Prince Of Fire

Smash Lord
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Oct 27, 2007
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http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7112063&
I was just visiting the smashbros webpage and i was looking at all the characters that appeared in melee. I seriously think that the rest of the characters are going to be new.

Thereis going to be no- - -

Doc mario
Falco
Game And Watch
Ganondorf
Luigi
Marth (UNFORTUNATLY!!!!) that pisses me off and nintendo make me smile in other areas to makeup for my favorite character!
Mewtwo
Pichu
Roy
Shiek

I do not see them inserting any of these characters except MAYBE mewtwo, Game, and shiek.

I'd like to see newcomers and all but I think that removing characters that are NOT clones was dumb. Ex-MARTH!!!! Roy was the ****ing clone!
 

ripman3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Messages
284
Location
Birmingham, AL
luigi's already in the game, ganondorf and shiek probably are, fox and marth are more than a maybe, and you forgot jigglypuff. really dont worry about it, theres still a good chance for most everyone except pichu, roy, and doc.
 

limitbreak

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
654
Location
NY
Ive been saying it for a while now. They are only revealing the set number of characters on the dojo. One more newcommer and thats it. We wont know the rest until it is either leaked or the game is released.
 

LuLLo

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 27, 2006
Messages
765
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Netherlands, NB
Seriously, this has been discussed over and over....I'm looking at your post count, and you should know by now that this thread won't live long...
And even IF this thread lives, why do you think Ganondorf or Sheik or any other character won't return? Got reasons? Info?
 

blayde_axel

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
3,038
Location
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Can people just wait for 17 days? Please? Some of these characters are probably going to be unlockable, anyway...

BTW, Game and Watch is definitely in. Go check out the "Icon Theory" thread.
 

Chiastic

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
111
you thought wrong. and you forgot capt falcon.
ganondorf, capt falcon, falco, marth and shiek will be in the game, its a given. these were very popular characters in melee and will most likely come back. same goes to jiggly, mewtwo and mr g&w. just because they had their own movesets they should be back, or at least their movesets.
 

Shuma

Smash Hero
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,407
Game And Watch
Ganondorf
Luigi
Marth
Mewtwo
Yeah right, let me inform you something, Sakurai has no obligation whatsoever to reveal the characters in the Dojo if he doesn't feel like it.
 

FireJumpPunch

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
120
Location
Europe; you do the math.
You call Luigi a clone? He and Mario play very differently mind you, even if their attacks may seem similar at first glance. And there's absolutely no reason for you to be so sure that all those characters will be out.
 

Crossjeremiah

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
580
Location
Dallas, TX
:)I assure you that sakurai does listen to his fans and he probably have heard of the most popular characters in professional tournament most likely he might bring them back just for the fans. if not he made this new game so us smash bros players will eventually have a new favorite character that we would love. remember smash64. there was no marth or sheik or any of that so we used what we have. so in brawl were going to use what we have, and love it. I bet that many of these newcomers are going to be a shocker for all of you. hes trying to make the most balanced game & most fun smash bros ever. with items or w/o. hey one thing i praise sakurai for, is buffing Kirby. if Kirby is as strong as i think he is like in 64 then that will be great. Final Cutter will be the move that people are going to pissed off at when they go off the bored(heh) and i didn't forget kirbycides. but all in all, don't worry about the game, just wait and see the amazzzzingzingness that this game will bring to community. not to mention 2player WiFi, if not more. now we can have the community more neighborly.
 

Psydon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
311
Right now, Brawl has 23 characters confirmed. Each one is unique. Melee had 27 characters counting Sheik, and 7 of Melee's characters were clones, which means that Melee had a total of 20 unique characters. So, Brawl already has a larger lineup, not counting clones, than Melee. This makes it much more likely that any other characters in the game (23 is a large roster, and Sakurai did say that he would reveal all of the characters since he knew we'd do it on the JP release date anyway...for all we know, he's already done that) are going to be unique characters, thus making it that less likely that any of most of the remaining Melee characters will return.

It was said in an interview years back that no clones would return for Brawl. Also, Sakurai said in an email reply to one of his fans (see SamuraiPanda's translation topic) that not all characters from Melee will return (which, of course, could just be his cryptic way of saying that clones won't return).

Doc = Clone. Further proof of his deconfirmation: Mario's fair was improved.

Falco = Clone. Further proof of his deconfirmation: Fox was nerfed.

Game & Watch = He might come back, since he was unique. But was he popular amongst Smash players? Possible proof of his deconfirmation: Wario looks to be the new "silly character that can still kick your ***" in Brawl.

Ganondorf = Clone. Personally, I hope he returns with a unique moveset. He's got both the potential and the popularity.

Luigi = See Ganondorf.

Marth = Broken. I want him to come back (he was unique and popular), but only if he's heavily nerfed. Possible proof of his deconfirmation:

1. Metaknight. Let's face it: he is basically the new, fixed, Marth.

2. Ike. Where's the sense in including a character like him and Marth in the same game? Ike would instantly become the new Roy.

Mewtwo = See Game & Watch.

Pichu = Clone. And Pikachu is more popular anyway.

Roy = Clone. Further proof of his deconfirmation: he's unpopular amongst FE and Smash fans and he was mediocre to the point of being unplayable as compared to Marth.

Sheik = Zelda is confirmed, so don't count out Sheik just yet. I hope he gets nerfed if he comes back, though.

Edit: CF = There's no reason for him to be removed, unless they wanted to give Ganondorf his moveset, which would be pretty lame IMO. I'm sure he'll be back.

Edit: Jigglypuff = *shrug* Jigglypuff was unique, but then we now have Metaknight. Something tells me Jigglypuff won't return.

Edit: Young Link = Clone. And there is absolutely NO reason why he ought to return, as WW Link or any other form.
 

Crossjeremiah

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
580
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Dallas, TX
heh they like spoiling anything. its like spoiling the end of a book or a movie. :laugh:
but were used to leaks. remember when we were getting movies at least 2 months before they came out, for all us pirates out there. but some of us are going to commit suicide if we don't know the leak asap... but if we commit suicide then we will not play brawl. :grin:
 

flyinfilipino

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
4,319
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North Carolina
@Psydon: Sakurai did not explicitly say there were not going to be clones, he just said he was going to try to work around that. And who says that just because they were clones in Melee, they have to be clones in Brawl?
 

Crossjeremiah

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
580
Location
Dallas, TX
if sheik is slowed down then i will flip . i'll find a new character if not master the new sheik if she comes back. but doesn't zero suit samus play like sheik?? but idk dont flame me for this comment. but I will love it if sheik comes back. if weaker but faster... thatd be amazing... lol but thats no nerfed thats just fox2(melee). most likely it will be stronger>speed:)
 

Tank McCannon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
281
Location
Canfield OH
Doc is gone.

Falco is gone.

Game & Watch will be back

Ganandorf will be back, new moveset. Final Smash will be Dark Beast Ganon from Twilight Princess.

Luigi will be back with the Poltergeist 3000 or whatever it was called.

Marth is gone.

Roy is gone.

Captain Falcon is gone, replaced by Black Shadow.

Pichu is gone.

Young Link will either be replaced by Wind Waker Link, or Majora's Mask Link. Majora's Mask Link would be best (transformations as well as a Fierce Deity Link Final Smash)

Sheik will return. There have been so few Zelda updates. They wouldn't keep us guessing just to tell us she's gone.

I don't know about Mewtwo.
 

Psydon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
311
@Psydon: Sakurai did not explicitly say there were not going to be clones, he just said he was going to try to work around that. And who says that just because they were clones in Melee, they have to be clones in Brawl?
1. See, this is when I wish I had bookmarked that page. >< But hey, that was back when the game was first announced.

2. If they don't have to be clones, why were they clones in Melee? :laugh:

I already talked about this in detail in another topic. Making characters is not easy; not all characters have the potential to possess unique movesets, which is why we get clones instead. Remember that for Melee clones to not be clones in Brawl, they have to have fully unique movesets. That means they can't be like their counterparts or anyone else, whilst remaining within the parameters of their in-game universe. That's a very limiting scenario; it's much more interesting and easy to simply drop the clone make a new character from another universe, or bring in a character from the same universe with more potential.
 

flyinfilipino

Smash Master
Joined
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1. See, this is when I wish I had bookmarked that page. >< But hey, that was back when the game was first announced.

2. If they don't have to be clones, why were they clones in Melee? :laugh:

I already talked about this in detail in another topic. Making characters is not easy; not all characters have the potential to possess unique movesets, which is why we get clones instead. Remember that for Melee clones to not be clones in Brawl, they have to have fully unique movesets. That means they can't be like their counterparts or anyone else, whilst remaining within the parameters of their in-game universe. That's a very limiting scenario; it's much more interesting and easy to simply drop the clone make a new character from another universe, or bring in a character from the same universe with more potential.
Which means maybe they had enough time to create new movesets.

People said Melee was rushed, and uh...I guess I'll believe them with regards to cloned characters' movesets. If they really wanted to bring back the same characters with different moves, they've probably had plenty of development time (probably since the very beginning) devoted to doing so. For Falco and Ganondorf!
 

Psydon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
311
Which means maybe they had enough time to create new movesets.

People said Melee was rushed, and uh...I guess I'll believe them with regards to cloned characters' movesets. If they really wanted to bring back the same characters with different moves, they've probably had plenty of development time (probably since the very beginning) devoted to doing so. For Falco and Ganondorf!
Alright, I'll give you an example. Falco vs. Krystal, as the second Star Fox character in Brawl, and which one has a more likely chance of being in the game.

Now, since they wanted to represent the SF series since the very first game, including Fox was a must. However, this immediately presented a problem: Star Fox Adventures was released after SSB64, and even after Melee, and until it was released Fox had never done anything outside of fly his Arwing. So, for him, they had to create a moveset from scratch. Logically speaking, somebody who is a trained pilot in a futuristic version of the Air Force, and a mercenary, is likely to be at least somewhat trained in hand-to-hand and gun combat as well. Hence, Fox's moveset.

But now we come to Melee, and Falco. Falco faces the same problem that Fox faced before SFA: that within the parameters of his universe he doesn't do anything other than fly a ship. How do we know that Falco is also a martial artist? How do we know that he carries a blaster? We don't. For all we know, outside of his ship Falco could be a total p****. :laugh: But, since Fox was somewhat changed from his 64 incarnation, they simply decided to make Falco be a "classic Fox". Hence, a clone with some of Fox's original attributes, notably the old blaster.

And now we have Brawl. Fox and Falco are known to Smash players, and since SFA we have had another character, one who is simply bursting with potential as a Smash character: Krystal (I'll tell you why later). Falco is a clone, and it is highly unlikely, given what has been said and what we've seen on the Dojo, that clones will exist in Brawl. Falco, in order to not be a clone, would have to be given a new moveset (also, they wouldn't be able to give him either of Fox's old movesets and accompanying attributes because the Brawl Fox has been nerfed from his past incarnations, and if they included older, better versions of Fox in Falco then nobody would play Fox). This immediately presents a problem for the developers, because they have nothing to work with when it comes to Falco. Not only would they have to, once again, design a moveset from scratch (which is hard enough in itself), it would have to match the parameters of the SF universe and be fundamentally different from Fox's moveset.

So we have Falco, who has nothing, versus Krystal, who has the staff and magic from SFA, and psychic abilities (she displayed telepathy and clairvoyance in SF Command, and I think I read somewhere that she displayed telekinesis in SF Assault).

Now tell me: which character do you think the developers would have an easier time creating? The answer is obvious: Krystal.

Not only does the above information prove that she is more likely to be in Brawl than Falco, the fact that her moveset would be unique also increases her chances, because that's the trend with Brawl's characters. Like I already said, Brawl has more characters than Melee if you remove the clones. And if you keep the clones, Melee only has 4 more characters than Brawl. This shows that the developers are extremely committed to making sure that every character within Brawl's large roster offers a completely different experience, and such a notion clashes with the idea of clones.

Falco is gone. Deal with it.

Since you mentioned Ganondorf, though, I'll say a little something about him as well.

I think Ganondorf will come back as a unique character. There are plenty, plenty of things they can do to make Ganondorf a unique character (hell, the forms of Ganondorf from OoT, WW and TP all fight completely differently), and he's one of Nintendo's oldest and most popular characters. He didn't deserve the appearance he had in Melee; he deserves his own moveset, whatever that may be. Besides, it'd be awesome and sensible to include those two "trinities" from two of Nintendo's most popular franchises:

Mario = Mario, Peach, Bowser
Zelda = Link, Zelda, Ganon

The Hero, the Princess and the Evil Guy. It makes sense. Ganondorf has plenty going for him as far as an appearance in Brawl goes. Certainly more than all of the other Melee characters that haven't been confirmed yet.
 

Zantetsu

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
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Springfield, MO
Doc is gone.

Falco is gone.

Game & Watch will be back

Ganandorf will be back, new moveset. Final Smash will be Dark Beast Ganon from Twilight Princess.

Luigi will be back with the Poltergeist 3000 or whatever it was called.

Marth is gone.

Roy is gone.

Captain Falcon is gone, replaced by Black Shadow.

Pichu is gone.

Young Link will either be replaced by Wind Waker Link, or Majora's Mask Link. Majora's Mask Link would be best (transformations as well as a Fierce Deity Link Final Smash)

Sheik will return. There have been so few Zelda updates. They wouldn't keep us guessing just to tell us she's gone.

I don't know about Mewtwo.
I agree with everything here except the captain falcon part. Why the hell would a main character be replaced by someone less popular?
 

Tank McCannon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
281
Location
Canfield OH
I agree with everything here except the captain falcon part. Why the hell would a main character be replaced by someone less popular?
That's actually an outrageous claim I've been making around the boards, so if it does happen, I can come back and say I was the only one that called it.

I know it's not likely. He and Ness were the only characters that were unlockable in the first game and starters in the second. Looks like Ness is gonna be swapped, so who knows?

Besides, Black Shadow is exactly like Captain Falcon, but manlier and with more muscles.
 

Zantetsu

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
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Springfield, MO
That's actually an outrageous claim I've been making around the boards, so if it does happen, I can come back and say I was the only one that called it.

I know it's not likely. He and Ness were the only characters that were unlockable in the first game and starters in the second. Looks like Ness is gonna be swapped, so who knows?
xD Good luck.

Besides, Black Shadow is exactly like Captain Falcon, but manlier and with more muscles.
You crossed the line with this quote >=(
 

ShortFuse

Smash Lord
Joined
May 23, 2007
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NJ/NYC
"NO CLONES" IS A RUMOR!

Sakurai was never interviewed about clones. Some guy supposed interviewed a Nintendo PR guy here in the US and supposedly he said that.

Btw, the interviewer is 16 and not affiliated with any gaming company and he posted it on his blog with more content that was later proved false by us here at smashboards. (He said project hammer was nearing completion and almost ready to be shipped.. Yeah, it was cancelled.)

He's also the same guy who said the Prima Strategy Guide writer leaked the Brawl playable character list.

Many people like to cling on to old, debunked, proven-false rumors because they don't want clones to be in brawl. I'm sorry you guys keep falling for this.
 

Zantetsu

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
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Springfield, MO
"NO CLONES" IS A RUMOR!
Uhh, are you sure? Wasn't it Samurai Panda who translated Sakurai's blog which said that?

Anyways, the main reason we had clones was because the game was rushed. They have way to much time for this game for them to rush characters and make clones again.
 

Prinkachu

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
59
Location
Banana
If Luigi Doesn't return for Brawl then George Bush, Ronald Mcdonald, Chuck Norris and Jesus are the final bosses of the Subspace Emissary.
I just know Luigi, C.Falcon and Ganondorf are back, If Mario is in a game with multiple characters, then Luigi is bound to be in the same game, C. Falcon has been since the beggining, and his fanbase is VERY large to just getting rid of him, besides, there is no one that deserves to replace him, Samurai Goroh, who would be the second character that could be in from the F-Zero series, is already an Assist Trophy. Zelda is a very important franchise, much important to just have 2 characters, Link and Zelda are in, the third character is obviously Ganondorf, Link has the Triforce of Courage, Zelda has the Triforce of Wisdom, who has the last piece of the Triforce? Ganondorf, if he is in the Triforce would be complete, and the 3 main characters of Zelda would be in.
 

ShortFuse

Smash Lord
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NJ/NYC
Uhh, are you sure? Wasn't it Samurai Panda who translated Sakurai's blog which said that?
SamuraiPanda reconfirms this as a rumor on Show Me Your News Episode 26 Part 4

Anyways, the main reason we had clones was because the game was rushed. They have way to much time for this game for them to rush characters and make clones again.
That's pure speculation
 

blayde_axel

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
3,038
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Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Uhh, are you sure? Wasn't it Samurai Panda who translated Sakurai's blog which said that?

Anyways, the main reason we had clones was because the game was rushed. They have way to much time for this game for them to rush characters and make clones again.
It's a rumor because the quote doesn't specifically say "NO CLONES."
 

FoulPlay

Smash Lord
Joined
May 18, 2006
Messages
1,459
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Scotland, United Kingdom
Captain Falcon is gone, replaced by Black Shadow.
WRONG! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

SERIOUSLY No one thinks Black Shadow is replacing Falcon... What the hell are you thinking?

I'd not count it out of Falco being back either. Falco has a high chance.
Also to OP: I think Sakurai might update One perhaps 2 characters before the release, he knows we're going to spoil everything anyway.
 

FireJumpPunch

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
120
Location
Europe; you do the math.
SERIOUSLY No one thinks Black Shadow is replacing Falcon... What the hell are you thinking?
I concur, but in a friendly way. Replacing Captain Falcon would be something like replacing Samus by Ridley if you ask me. Falcon is the franchise's most well-known character, and I doubt whether he would be replaced by a less popular character from the franchise.

But he'd be manlier with a moustache. (I know someone's going to kill me for that)
 

Tank McCannon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
281
Location
Canfield OH
WRONG! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

SERIOUSLY No one thinks Black Shadow is replacing Falcon... What the hell are you thinking?

I'd not count it out of Falco being back either. Falco has a high chance.
Also to OP: I think Sakurai might update One perhaps 2 characters before the release, he knows we're going to spoil everything anyway.
Ahaha, when Captain Falcon is confirmed, you can come back here and tell me how wrong I was and I'll humbly admit defeat. But if I'm right, oh man, what a call.
 
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