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Does gsp really show your skill level?

Perfect patricia

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 12, 2018
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84
What most people think is that the higher the gsp the better player you are but I just reached 3.8million gsp from literally playing with items on the entire time and used Zelda and abused her cheap final smash. Keep in mind I had my preferred rules set to free for all but once you hit elite smash the game is like “1v1 for the rest of your life” also I’m not even that good at his game and yet I’m this high of a rank. I’m facing opponents who clearly are mechanically better than me and yet the game thinks I’m that good
 

Crystanium

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Well, it can be manipulated. It's a decent indicator, but if Elite Smash causes you to remain in 1v1, play without items and play on Final Destination or Battlefield formats. See how long you stay in Elite Smash.
 

Orlando BCN

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GSP and *actual* rankings are two different things in my opinion, so nah.
 

BTHK_Nydus

Smash Rookie
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I think it's a decent indicator, but people manipulating it using BS rulesets are the scum of the earth. I played against a guy the other day at 3.3mil GSP who had 2.5 minute TIMED match with items on. I grabbed a couple of good items, picked up a kill, and then stalled him out. It made my day.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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No. GSP is a piss poor excuse for a ranking system. The BS way it calculates your score and the way people manipulate it show just how broken it is.
 

FartyParty

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If you play 1v1 no items bf or omega AND you have logged a high # of matches, then it basically correlates to skill, and yes, the fact that it ranks the different rulesets all together is a big flaw.
 
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SmashBro99

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I have close to the same GSP as Zero, so prob not, I'm ok but not THAT good.
 

Mogisthelioma

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Honestly, GSP needs to go. Who agrees? The system is broken and it barely can accurately calculate your skill. And it's not just GSP, it's the entire online in general. I should only be matched up with people who have the exact same preferences as me. I am sick and ****ing tired of losing all the progress I make in three or four games just because I got paired with the one little kid who wanted to play a KO fest on Kalos and cheesed me with the stage hazards. Remember when we didn't have to worry about crappy ranking or being grouped with people with items or stage hazards on? Nintendo is literally the only company that can get already mediocre online and make it objectively worse. And the worst part is Nintendo is so bad at dealing with feedback and criticism that they refuse to admit their mistakes and make any meaningful changes to the system.
 

Crystanium

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Honestly, GSP needs to go. Who agrees? The system is broken and it barely can accurately calculate your skill. And it's not just GSP, it's the entire online in general. I should only be matched up with people who have the exact same preferences as me. I am sick and ****ing tired of losing all the progress I make in three or four games just because I got paired with the one little kid who wanted to play a KO fest on Kalos and cheesed me with the stage hazards. Remember when we didn't have to worry about crappy ranking or being grouped with people with items or stage hazards on? Nintendo is literally the only company that can get already mediocre online and make it objectively worse. And the worst part is Nintendo is so bad at dealing with feedback and criticism that they refuse to admit their mistakes and make any meaningful changes to the system.
My experience has been mostly positive, save for the few rude players who like to tea bag. I rarely ever end up with people who have two stocks and five minutes. I mostly bump into players who seem interested in playing competitively. It's very rare, if at all that I play against anyone with items on. Very rare.
 
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meleebrawler

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Honestly, GSP needs to go. Who agrees? The system is broken and it barely can accurately calculate your skill. And it's not just GSP, it's the entire online in general. I should only be matched up with people who have the exact same preferences as me. I am sick and ****ing tired of losing all the progress I make in three or four games just because I got paired with the one little kid who wanted to play a KO fest on Kalos and cheesed me with the stage hazards. Remember when we didn't have to worry about crappy ranking or being grouped with people with items or stage hazards on? Nintendo is literally the only company that can get already mediocre online and make it objectively worse. And the worst part is Nintendo is so bad at dealing with feedback and criticism that they refuse to admit their mistakes and make any meaningful changes to the system.
It doesn't matter how hard you try to make it competitive; it will never be taken seriously due to limitations that simply can't be worked around, and that no other fighting game has to deal with (mainly in regards to stage selection). Why go to the trouble of implementing a dedicated ranked mode that only a tiny fraction of the playerbase have a vested interest in making a serious effort to climb and most likely doesn't even adequately prepare them for real-life competition anyway when they can just use Anther's or something in conjunction with (private) battle arenas that do simulate real tournaments?

Also, that player can't have counted on going to Kalos since you can't set any stage that isn't Battlefield or Final Destination in your preferences for Quickplay. With that in mind, I can't help but admire the player's resourcefulness.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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It doesn't matter how hard you try to make it competitive; it will never be taken seriously due to limitations that simply can't be worked around, and that no other fighting game has to deal with (mainly in regards to stage selection). Why go to the trouble of implementing a dedicated ranked mode that only a tiny fraction of the playerbase have a vested interest in making a serious effort to climb and most likely doesn't even adequately prepare them for real-life competition anyway when they can just use Anther's or something in conjunction with (private) battle arenas that do simulate real tournaments?

Also, that player can't have counted on going to Kalos since you can't set any stage that isn't Battlefield or Final Destination in your preferences for Quickplay. With that in mind, I can't help but admire the player's resourcefulness.
I'm not asking for a competitive ranked mode, I'm asking for at least some form of improvement. In Smash 4 we never had to worry about playing on wacky rulesets. Now, if you dip below a certain GSP, you run the risk of getting paired with someone who has it set to one stock or a stamina battle. Even then you can still get stupid rulesets when you're at 2.5 million GSP or in Elite Smash. And if GSP is never going to be inaccurate due to "limitations," then it should go. They should replace it with a simpler ranking system that almost every other online platform uses. Even Splatoon 2 uses a better algorithm.

What you're basically saying is "Why should Sakurai go through the trouble of fixing this online mess if not everyone plays the game competitively." I'm not trying to get myself into a tournament, but I at least want a fair match. Games with stage hazards, items, short times, stamina, one stock, KO fests, etc., and I know I sound like a child but it's true, aren't fair. Either the game ends too quickly, you lose to some random BS, or some other game-breaking ruleset that allows whoever set it to that to exploit it and get a free win. Even if not many people are truly playing competitively we should have the right to expect a fair and balanced matchup and I don't think anyone here enjoys going through all of the trouble we get with GSP.

Would it kill them to set the matchmaking algorithm to only pair people with the exact same ruleset? No. Would it truly be a chore if they replaced GSP with a more standardized ranking system? I can't imagine. And this brings me to my final point: It royally sucks how despite all of this Nintendo is refusing to accept enough criticism to make meaningful change.

Edit: Fixed typos
 
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FartyParty

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I'm not asking for a competitive ranked mode, I'm asking for at least some form of improvement. In Smash 4 we never had to worry about playing on wacky rulesets. Now, if you dip below a certain GSP, you run the risk of getting paired with someone who has it set to one stock or a stamina battle. Even then you can still get stupid rulesets when you're at 2.5 million GSP or in Elite Smash. And if GSP is never going to be accurate due to "limitations," then it should go. They should replace it with a simpler ranking system that almost every other online platform uses. Even Splatoon 2 uses a better algorithm.

What you're basically saying is "Why should Sakurai go through the trouble of fixing this online mess if not everyone plays the game competitively." I'm not trying to get myself into a tournament, but I alt least want a fair match. Games with stage hazards, items, short times, stamina, one stock, KO fests, etc., and I know I sound like a child but it's true, aren't fair. Either the game ends too quickly, you lose to some random BS, or some other game-breaking ruleset that allows whoever set it to that to exploit it and get a free win. Even if not many people are truly playing competitively we should have the right to expect a fair and balanced matchup and I don't think anyone here enjoys going through all of the trouble we get with GSP.

Would it kill them to set the matchmaking algorithm to only pair people with the exact same ruleset? No. Would it truly be a chore if they replaced GSP with a more standardized ranking system? I can't imagine. And this brings me to my final point: It royally sucks how despite all of this Nintendo is refusing to accept enough criticism to make meaningful change.
Dealing with wonky stages actually annoys me more than items now. Items I've learned to cope with mostly (partially by getting to the items first and throwing them straight off stage), but people playing on levels that give them absolute advantage is just infuriating. I was once matched with a Simon on regular Great Plateau Tower where he could just stand in the middle under the thing cutting off all avenues of approach except straight on, and this weekend I got an Incineroar playing on that one old school Mario stage w/ the POW block, which was miserable.
 

Monitoimirousku

Smash Rookie
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Feb 4, 2019
Messages
18
GSP tells very little of your skill level. I played ROB for the first time recently, just a few matches against bots, then went to online and played 2 games. Won both of them (opponents sucked) and boom, ROB is my highest GSP character with over 2 million GSP even though I've barely played him and don't know how to play him at all. Meanwhile I have just over 100k GSP with my main ZSS, even though I'm constantly queued with strong players, many of whom have over a million GSP and I've had very close games with them. I also have over a million GSP with my other main, Ike, even though I wouldn't say I'm that much better with him than ZSS.
In general I've had a great experience with online in Ultimate so far. Out of the over 200 games I've played I've only been put in a FFA once and have only gotten a handful of games with items on. Lag is fairly common but it's usually not a big deal. Maybe it's just me but I don't think people are giving enough credit to Ultimate's online. Sure, GSP sucks but if you don't care about it you're going to have a good time.
 

FartyParty

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I have close to the same GSP as Zero, so prob not, I'm ok but not THAT good.
You need to remember that the numerical ranking doesn't actually indicate how much of a skill gap exists between one rank and another. At lower GSPs there is little to no skill gap from between ranks even if the ranks seem far apart, e.g. 1 mil GSP is not a much higher level of skill than 500K which isn't much higher skill than 100K, but near the top there can be large increases in skill over a small number of players in the ranking, e.g. the top 20 are significantly better than the rest of the top 100 who are signficantly better than the rest of the top 1000. You might indeed be good enough to have rank somewhat close to ZeRo even without being anywhere near his skill level.

As someone who has climbed from less than 100K to greater than 3 mil over the course of 1300+ matches, I can absolutely confirm there is more correlation to skill than people are giving the system credit for, whatever flaws it may have.
 

Ez Quinn

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I think the GSP system sucks! I think there should be a separate “Elite” mode where you don’t have to worry about losing the ability to play in it. The game should always take ruleset over how close the two players are, although I appreciate Nintendo trying to make less laggy matches (hated this in sm4sh) I don’t think I’m going to get lag from someone a state over with my rule sets than have to worry about a little kid right next door with bad rule sets. Plus I have LAN so.......... but anyways, as someone who is trying to get competitive and “good” at the game. I don’t want to worry about 1 minute FFA with items on. I don’t like the GSP system and I worry about it to much for the online mode to be fun.
 
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Ness Lee

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Honestly, GSP needs to go. Who agrees? The system is broken and it barely can accurately calculate your skill. And it's not just GSP, it's the entire online in general. I should only be matched up with people who have the exact same preferences as me. I am sick and ****ing tired of losing all the progress I make in three or four games just because I got paired with the one little kid who wanted to play a KO fest on Kalos and cheesed me with the stage hazards. Remember when we didn't have to worry about crappy ranking or being grouped with people with items or stage hazards on? Nintendo is literally the only company that can get already mediocre online and make it objectively worse. And the worst part is Nintendo is so bad at dealing with feedback and criticism that they refuse to admit their mistakes and make any meaningful changes to the system.
I agree to an extent. But I mean it’s cool that we have some semblance of a ranking system, even tho it’s flawed. And I like the idea of battle arenas, although it could have been implemented better. I’m pretty sure you can go to “background matchmaking” if you don’t wanna get matched with a weird rule set, but those matches probably don’t count toward GSP
 

Machii

Smash Apprentice
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Dec 7, 2014
Messages
90
Delay/lag really sets the online apart from the actual game. It creates a different meta where certain attacks become more valuable. So no, it's not.
More technical characters become worse when inputs are dropped.
This could be heavily mitigated by allowing players to view the connectivity quality of each matchup before excepting (like every other fighting game).
Quick match is not a measure of the actual game in any sense.
 

Diem

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Like some people are saying, it can be a decent indicator, but is no way a true measurement. Any skill measurement based on obscure algorithms is never going to be reliable. Other games have been doing it for over a decade with varying degrees of success.

In Battlefield 4, there was a "skill" stat, which was independent of Kill/Death Ratio (KDR) and Score Per Minute (SPM) stats. Between two stats alone can be used to measure how skilled a player is (KDR shows their effectiveness in combat, and SPM shows how much they actually contribute to the objective), but they still had a "skill" stat, that would flail wildly between games, increasingly slowly with good performance but plummeting with any bad performance, and no one knew what the heck it even really meant. Eventually they took it out of the game altogether because everyone agreed that it was useless.

Before that, I remember Halo 3's "TrueSkill" system, which was both better and worse. It was less volatile, but it also measured your skill against your past performances, which meant that sometimes increasing your rating was nearly impossible. Yet, if you were to create a new account after you've improved at the game, you could achieve a higher skill rating much more easily, since there were no past games to weigh it against. It also knocked you down a peg or two for each loss, but victories earned you very little.

GSP reminds me of it, with how wins get you very small increases but losses really crash your rank. I don't think that's a fair way of evaluating things, but I guess it's working to some degree. The people in Elite Smash seem to be genuinely good players, and those in the lower levels seem to belong there. So I don't think Smash's implementation is bad so far, as it does seem to be somewhat accurate.
 

Ez Quinn

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I agree to an extent. But I mean it’s cool that we have some semblance of a ranking system, even tho it’s flawed. And I like the idea of battle arenas, although it could have been implemented better. I’m pretty sure you can go to “background matchmaking” if you don’t wanna get matched with a weird rule set, but those matches probably don’t count toward GSP
I don’t know, I’ll test it when I get home, but some people don’t wanna wait for their matches tho
 

Crystanium

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Think of GSP like the human brain. Is it faulty? Yes. Is it all we have at the moment? Yes. Does it mean it's not reliable? Sometimes.
 

MG_3989

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GSP shows how good of a player you are to a point as long as you don’t cheese it. There are always gonna be dropped frames online and people with BS rulesets but for the most part good players have a high GSP

What GSP doesn’t show is how you handle playing in person or pressure situations. How you handle somebody sitting next to you or across from you not just playing mind games in game but playing mind games with their body language and confidence. Playing in person is more frustrating. Also these online matches don’t really mean anything so there’s no pressure and to be a good player you need to be able to preform under pressure
 

KarneraMythos

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I'm somewhere in the 3.5 million threshold with Mega Man, Ike, Zelda, Isabelle, and Mii Swordfighter. I play it competitively, but I only consider my placement in Elite nothing more than a fluke at best.
 
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MG_3989

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I'm somewhere in the 3.5 million threshold with Mega Man, Ike, Zelda, Isabelle, and Mii Swordfighter. I play it competitively, but I only consider my placement in Elite nothing more than a fluke at best.
If you’re there with that many characters it’s probanly not a fluke
 

Crystanium

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If you’re there with that many characters it’s probanly not a fluke
When you make it into Elite Smash with one character, it tends to be easy to get the others in, at least as long as you don't lose the match for any other character not in Elite Smash. It's kind of like a free pass for the others. I have Samus, Dark Samus, Pit, Mewtwo, and Roy in Elite Smash. My brother has Ness in Elite Smash. There might be a couple more in Elite Smash, but I don't use any except Samus, Dark Samus, and Ridley. My Ridley has been in and out of Elite Smash. My Zero Suit Samus isn't even in Elite Smash. I spend way more time as Samus/Dark Samus, and Ridley is pretty much my secondary by this point.
 
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MG_3989

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When you make it into Elite Smash with one character, it tends to be easy to get the others in, at least as long as you don't lose the match for any other character not in Elite Smash. It's kind of like a free pass for the others. I have Samus, Dark Samus, Pit, Mewtwo, and Roy in Elite Smash. My brother has Ness in Elite Smash. There might be a couple more in Elite Smash, but I don't use any except Samus, Dark Samus, and Ridley. My Ridley has been in and out of Elite Smash. My Zero Suit Samus isn't even in Elite Smash. I spend way more time as Samus/Dark Samus, and Ridley is pretty much my secondary by this point.
Yeah I know that but you’ll drop out real quick if you aren’t decent with the character unless you don’t touch them
 

Crystanium

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Yeah I know that but you’ll drop out real quick if you aren’t decent with the character unless you don’t touch them
My Dark Samus took a hard hit today. I believe 10k. Since Samus and Dark Samus are so similar, I'm not going to be using Samus on Quickplay until I get Dark Samus back up. Maybe it was two days of not playing Quickplay. Maybe it was the lack of nutrients and fluids today. Maybe it was all mental. Whatever the case, I'm going to be busting my ass until Dark Samus returns to her former glory.
 

KarneraMythos

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If you’re there with that many characters it’s probanly not a fluke
Ehhh, a lot of Elite players have like 10+ characters in Elite at least. My own personal definition of "decent" is actually holding the record and not dropping on and off constantly. I guess it's better than being the guy that goes "Ugh, I'm at 300k. Why is getting in Elite Smash so haaarduh?"
 

MG_3989

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Ehhh, a lot of Elite players have like 10+ characters in Elite at least. My own personal definition of "decent" is actually holding the record and not dropping on and off constantly. I guess it's better than being the guy that goes "Ugh, I'm at 300k. Why is getting in Elite Smash so haaarduh?"
Well I think your win loss ratio is much more important than GSP. There are stats in the game that can tell you in a much clearer way how good you’re preforming with a character that aren’t GSP. If you’re winning more games than you lose at higher GSPs you’re probably pretty good
 

KarneraMythos

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Well I think your win loss ratio is much more important than GSP. There are stats in the game that can tell you in a much clearer way how good you’re preforming with a character that aren’t GSP. If you’re winning more games than you lose at higher GSPs you’re probably pretty good
In that case, I can deduce I am a trash player without having to look. I can't remember winning too many meaningful games online.
 

Wenkbrauw

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I do not think it shows skill level at all. For some reason, it averaged at 3+ million for each character for me as a starting point. I am currently between 2-3 million with my main, Snake. The skill level of the people I encounter is extremely varied, I met an Up + B spam Kirby at 3.2 million while I also got absolutely destroyed by players with way lower GSP.
 

leafgreen386

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What most people think is that the higher the gsp the better player you are but I just reached 3.8million gsp from literally playing with items on the entire time and used Zelda and abused her cheap final smash. Keep in mind I had my preferred rules set to free for all but once you hit elite smash the game is like “1v1 for the rest of your life” also I’m not even that good at his game and yet I’m this high of a rank. I’m facing opponents who clearly are mechanically better than me and yet the game thinks I’m that good
You might actually be one of the best players in the game... that uses that ruleset. Since almost no competitive players play FFA items on, you're among the best of whatever is left. And now, having climbed all the way to elite smash on that ruleset, you no longer have anyone else to play against because it's an entirely separate queue, one in which most players climbed there by doing straight 1v1s. Of course, on the 1v1 no-item BF/FD ruleset, you're no where near the top, as evidenced by being unable to keep up with the players you're facing in elite smash.

You've effectively demonstrated one of the great flaws of GSP and elite smash: Having everyone on the same ladder, but separated into different queues based on rating value is an incredibly flawed way to calculate rank or handle matchmaking. Spend enough time in elite smash, and you'll either get good enough to stay there, or you'll drop out back to regular matchmaking, as at least the system is self-correcting. But the FFA ladder and the 1v1 ladder should never have been a shared ladder in the first place; they're entirely different formats.
 

Love Tap

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I concur with the general consensus that it puts you in a general ball park of sorts, it's far from precise. I just think it's nonsense that item battles count toward GSP, especially given how overpowered some of them them are, there are a few that are basically one shots, and faster characters have an advantage because they can simply run and grab the items quicker. Want to get into smash elite? Main sonic or fox, do item battles, get money.

I'm just above 3.5 million GSP with a 64% win ratio with puff and I still don't have elite. (Seriously, what the ****?) I know I'm close, but I'm struggling to get there. So, it must be halfway decent in determining your skill level if some players like me are hitting a wall. Maybe I'm not and the GSP requirements are just shooting up faster each day than I have time to grind for it from all the new people buying the game? I have no idea. At any rate, bodying someone with way higher GSP than you is a really good feeling.

Part of it may not necessarily be your skill but the character you're using. I know people talk a big talk about this game being balanced but (Yes, arguably the *most* balanced smash game, but balanced? Eh, not reaaaaaaaaally.) if you're maining little mac, the road ahead is going to be tough.
 
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leafgreen386

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Maybe I'm not and the GSP requirements are just shooting up faster each day than I have time to grind for it from all the new people buying the game?
Impossible. New players will start out below you, inflating your GSP. GSP does go up over time, but your GSP will go up with it, even without you doing anything. Even though elite is a moving goalpost, your GSP is moving with it.
 
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Luigifan18

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I concur with the general consensus that it puts you in a general ball park of sorts, it's far from precise. I just think it's nonsense that item battles count toward GSP, especially given how overpowered some of them them are, there are a few that are basically one shots, and faster characters have an advantage because they can simply run and grab the items quicker. Want to get into smash elite? Main sonic or fox, do item battles, get money.

I'm just above 3.5 million GSP with a 64% win ratio with puff and I still don't have elite. (Seriously, what the ****?) I know I'm close, but I'm struggling to get there. So, it must be halfway decent in determining your skill level if some players like me are hitting a wall. Maybe I'm not and the GSP requirements are just shooting up faster each day than I have time to grind for it from all the new people buying the game? I have no idea. At any rate, bodying someone with way higher GSP than you is a really good feeling.

Part of it may not necessarily be your skill but the character you're using. I know people talk a big talk about this game being balanced but (Yes, arguably the *most* balanced smash game, but balanced? Eh, not reaaaaaaaaally.) if you're maining little mac, the road ahead is going to be tough.
Little Mac is faster than Fox... on the ground, anyways. (Though I’ve heard that his air speed is also one of the better air speeds in the game, which is odd.) Only Sonic and Captain Falcon run faster than Little Mac. Just felt like pointing that out.
 
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