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Does a lack of "true combos" hurt Brawl?

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
So slashing their tires would be like ... doing something against the tournament rules then right

Tournament rules are man made laws to limit things that are unrelated to demonstrating your skill at Smash, laws are made to limit uhh ... **** like this.

Is that fair? xD
 

Sliq

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
4,871
So slashing their tires would be like ... doing something against the tournament rules then right

Tournament rules are man made laws to limit things that are unrelated to demonstrating your skill at Smash, laws are made to limit uhh ... **** like this.

Is that fair? xD
You don't get it and I refuse to waste time trying to explain this to you. Read an above post where someone makes a less RADICAL analogy.
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
Premium
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
3,458
Location
Rochester, NY
My god this thread is beautiful.
I read all 10 pages of this stuff... so much blatant trolling... Normally I make it a mission to never venture into Brawl General, but I think this time it was worth it.

To actually answer the OP, in my humble opinion I believe that Brawl would be a better game with some form of a combo system similar to that of Melee.
Brawl's combo system (yes it does exist) is actually probably closer to a traditional fighter if anything. Think about it:
Combos in Brawl tend to be guaranteed without any chance for the opponent to escape. You got grabbed? Be helpless while I grab release combo you. You hot footstooled onstage? Be helpless while I footstool infinite you. You missed a tech? Be helpless while I jab lock you.
They revolve around memorizing a certain timing (be that difficult to do or not) and executing it while your opponent is helpless.

Melee has those types of combos too, but a majority of combos have a method of escape with proper action on the opponent's behalf.
In Brawl, that ratio to escapable to inescapable is practically reversed.

That's one gripe I have with Brawl. It is however, my opinion. If you enjoy Brawl then by all means more power to you. We exist to have different opinions, and if all goes well we manage to peacefully exist.
I think I am on a Smash-low lately though. Currently I have been bored with Smash as a series in general. I need a break from it, and that's what Team Fortress 2 is for :awesome:
 

Solidusspriggan

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
225
Location
Oklahoma (norman)
IDK But I've always found Brawl combo videos on youtube that have no combos, or maybe a series of 2 hit combos that lead to a kill or something, its really annoying when looking for legit combos.
 
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
1,172
Location
UCSD
dang that game was intense Mantis

but they did so many unsafe things

a more defensive Falco would have wrecked that Marth for doing stupid **** like fulljump dairing oos
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
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You'd only go to jail if you got caught. For the sake of argument, let's assume that you won't get caught, and there would be no consequences for slashing the tires. Would you do it? You'd win for certain if you did. Play to win, right?
Then your example would fail even worse.

People are usually watching you matches, if people aren't you can call a TO and make them stop.

Play to win does have it's limits, playing defensive or abusing a tactic on a stage that might need to be banned isn't. That is up to the MBR or the community to fix on it's own.

Well, I do suppose members of the KKK do high five each other when they stick it to a minority. Let's retroactively agree that what I said only applies to non-*******s so I don't have to ridiculously compare you to the KKK.
Hoe can you think playing to winning in a video game is comparable to the KKK?

One wants to hate on people for something they are born as while the other is trying to win a video game.

Do you have a good example?

I'm not claiming it's overpowered. I'm saying it makes you less likeable as an individual. Seriously, pull your head out of your ***. If you are cut throat in any competition, everyone is going to dislike you. Ty Cobb was an amazing baseball player, and he's in the baseball hall of fame. However, the fans hated him because he would use legal, underhanded tactics like spiking players.
It doesn't to me. They didn't do anything wrong, if you leave things legal they have every right to use them. If people really don't like the tactic ban it, good luck banning playing defensive and not making any way to enforce it subjective.

So I guess that I'm the only one on these boards that hates camping and lame tactics. That's why people bring up banning them even though they aren't gamebreaking (lol edge grab limit).
1.) I'm against that.
2.) Some people do think it is gamebreaking for MK, the rest aren't.

If I did that then I wouldn't be able to describe in great detail about how I plowed the **** out of your mom last night. But that's another story for another time.
Why are you in the MBR?

Currently can't watch this video, but I assume it is 2 "nobodies" fighting each other in a friendly or NOT in the finals.

Brawl is fine in a casual setting because people don't *** out and abuse the **** out of boring tactics.
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<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fCVq1bJgk_Q?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fCVq1bJgk_Q?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

GG, cp?
 

TurnOneWrath

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
40
I'm not claiming it's overpowered. I'm saying it makes you less likeable as an individual. Seriously, pull your head out of your ***. If you are cut throat in any competition, everyone is going to dislike you.
I'm not arguing this point, but there is some clarity to be made here.
In competition, the goal is to win at all costs, within the framework of the rules. Thus, competition is by nature cutthroat. But, it doesn't necessarily make an individual unlikeable in playing in such a manner in all cases.
I'm brand new to the competitive Smash scene with my first tournament next month, but I have been playing Magic competitively for some years now, and it is cutthroat in most instances, yet doesn't lead to a person being disliked. It's the nature of the game, but it also depends on how one goes about it. If one goes about wrecking someone, they could either be a jerk about it, or they could explain to the other player how to get better. One dislikeable outcome and one likeable.

As for the circle camping thing, I don't know what to think about that due to a lack of an analogue of that in Magic. In Magic, purposely waiting stalling/not interacting with your opponent to let time run out when you are ahead is considered cheating, and the player is DQ'd without prize and suspended for up to two years from competition.
But I don't think there's a way to impose that in Smash, or whether people would even want to impose it. But it seems that some people feel like it's a punk move, makes for boring competition, and is generally frowned upon. But I guess it's just part of cutthroat competition, like in football when teams take advantage of the clock when they are ahead.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
How does one deal with an exploding capsule that "randomly" spawns right in front of you as you charge a Smash Attack? :urg:
Capsules and Bom-ombs can be turned off. There is room for debate on some stuff, but generally most items should be on.

Also, there are time gaps between item spawns. You can asume the risk if you ever are charging a Smash attack.

While that's true for Poker, it's impossible with Smash. You can't play head games with the capsule your character is holding in his hand, because no one knows what it is.
Is it a bomb so you throw it at your opponent, or is it a Pokeball? And then you can't bluff Pokeballs either because what's inside is completely random and ranges from doing nothing to killing your opponent.

Way back in the day my friend and I would set the game settings to very hard and team up to fight Falco and Fox (they seemed to be the most difficult characters to beat). In retrospect, it pretty much came down to who grabbed better Pokeballs. I remember constantly asking, "Is that our Pokeball?"

Items are definitely very capable of determining a winner and loser completely at random. Whether we won or lost was completely out of our hands. People don't want to have tournaments that really amount to a series of coin flips.
I think your looking at this wrong. Let's take the scenario you provided. One player has a capsule. What could happen. He could throw it and hit his opponent. Great. It could explode. Better. But it could also miss giving the player an item. People here think this means "it's random, I have no control." The thing is, a good player is going to expect the worst possible scenario. The capsule could KO your foe, it could explode or it could have nothing. Those would be great. But you have to anticipate that it has a Pokeball and you will miss. You are going to expect the Pokeball because if you don't, you'll be in trouble.

This is why I see so many good players throw battering items. There plenty of outcomes when you attack. You might miss, or get countered, and you have to be ready. You also have to be ready that the Home-run bat you throw will fall into your opponent's hands (which is something you should avoid). The capsule may be random, but you are a good player and anticipate all possible outcomes. If you are worried about someone getting the Pokeball, than you ignore it, throw it off or throw it down and hope the item that comes out is better than the capsule was. This is risk vs Reward. There is little risk to throwing that capsule off, but there is no reward to that. If you throw the capsule, you risk giving you foe an item. But it could explode and be worth it. That is your reward, and you took a risk to do it. And those are the things you have to expect when playing with items.

I concede that there may be a large number of random events that effect gameplay with items on. However, this changes the type of skill that the a tournament set is testing for. Some items can be so polarizing (warp star, bomb-ombs, pokeballs, etc) that they literally decide the game. Thus the skill a set tests for shifts from spacing, reads, combo ability, execution, etc, to pure stage control, and speed. I argue that this removes depth by emphasizing parts of the game that aren't as important.
Just to let you know, Warp Stars do not decide matches. They are very easy to dodge and you shouldn't get hit in a 1v1 setting.

Tournaments don't test for a "type," of skill, they test to see who is the best. If you are a really good player, but you suck with items, than you didn't deserve to win. Stages and items are just as part of the game as anything else and being skilled with them is advantage (just as sucking with them is a disadvantage). In a tournament, the best wins.

Think about how many tourney matches come down to one stock each. Quite a bit, right? Even if items were on medium or low, there is a pretty good probability (as you said, with many different random events occurring) that an empty capsule would kill a player, or a bomb-omb would let the player at 150% kill the player at 40%. In the current system, if a player has a lead, it is through their own merit, not at the mercy of the gamecube's (psuedo)random number generator.
First, % don't matter in Smash. You can die at 0 and live at 999. How you KO is more important.

Of course, the thing you forget is that you have to be hit by the bom-omb before it can kill you. So, it's not like the throwing player gets a free win, no, he has to hit you first. People want to complain the items were the problem but 1)Using items are a skill. If you lose to them, most likely the opponent used them better and/or use didn't use them well enough and 2)a match is not won by one thing. If you lost, go back and look at the match and you'll see you did multiple things wrong.

So that means quite a few tourney matches will end up coming down to who is lucky with items. How is this desirable, and how does it in any way add depth? In my opinion, it heavily favors characters who can run faster and get to the items before their opponent. After all, who's going to play someone like Ganon or DK when they can't possibly outrun a Fox?
(Part of this I mentioned earlier)

Items favor stage control over anything else. It favors who can get the space control in a match. Faster characters can get to a far away item faster, but it doesn't matter if your closer or you can fight them for it (and they have to go though you to get it). Not to mention Smash Balls are easier to get for stronger characters.

The way it adds depth is a lot of what I've said before. It adds a new layer to the game. Stage control becomes more important where before you could just ledge camp. It adds new ways too attack and approach foes. It adds new strategies and tactics, and well as a way for characters who can't KO as well a chance in matches. It adds more to Smash Bros.

tl;dr items favor the wrong kind of skill
I'd love to know how a kind of skill can be "wrong."
 

Sliq

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
4,871
Then your example would fail even worse.
And here's no explanation as to why! WHEEEEEEEE!

People are usually watching you matches, if people aren't you can call a TO and make them stop.
What does match watching have to do with slashed tires? In my example, tire slashing would not be against the rules. So I suppose someone watching you do it could tattle about something legal...which would really accomplish nothing. You should consider proofreading your nonsense.

Play to win does have it's limits, playing defensive or abusing a tactic on a stage that might need to be banned isn't.
So "playing defensively or abusing a tactic on a stage that might need to be banned isn't" have its limits? Try using English that makes sense. Also, it is "its," not "it's." "Its" denotes possession, and "it's" is a contraction.

Hoe can you think playing to winning in a video game is comparable to the KKK?
You're the hoe!

Let's retroactively agree that what I said only applies to non-*******s so I don't have to ridiculously compare you to the KKK.
It seems like I may have used hyperbole in an analogy to both make a point and inject humor. I can explain everything I say from now on if you want. I assumed this was a big boy talk and we would both be able to identify the core argument and weed out any exaggeration, but shame on me for forgetting that this is the internet, your name is Red Ryu, and you think Brawl is good. What was I thinking!?


Do you have a good example?
A good example of KKK members high fiving? No but I'm sure you can just google it. Seriously, an EXAMPLE OF WHAT? YOU SPEAK NONSENSE.


It doesn't to me. They didn't do anything wrong, if you leave things legal they have every right to use them. If people really don't like the tactic ban it, good luck banning playing defensive and not making any way to enforce it subjective
See previous KKK argument, since this is the same ****ing point you made before. Let's play the repeat game, because if I say it differently, it will be more right the next time!


1.) I'm against that.
2.) Some people do think it is gamebreaking for MK, the rest aren't.
1.) I am too, but that doesn't stop people from HATING it so much that against reason they want it removed because they feel it RUINS THE ****ING GAME.
2.) It is never game breaking, ever. The game is broken already, and this one little thing amounts to just 1 grain of salt in the failure ocean that is Brawl.


Why are you in the MBR?
Because I am a good player and I am very knowledgeable. Why are you a mod?


I guess when I said I can't watch videos, you thought I meant I choose not to watch the videos. I CAN'T WATCH THE ****ING VIDEOS.

I'm on lunch at work. I use my breaks to post. Youtube is blocked. CAN'T WATCH VIDEOS.

But I'm sure all of the videos posted are ****ty and stupid, so I won't use the fact I can't see them as an excuse.

If you could, please repeat a bunch of **** again and completely miss the point of my post. I enjoy saying the same **** over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

I'm not arguing this point, but there is some clarity to be made here.
In competition, the goal is to win at all costs, within the framework of the rules. Thus, competition is by nature cutthroat.
Only if the stakes are high enough for the competition to matter.

But, it doesn't necessarily make an individual unlikeable in playing in such a manner in all cases.
Casual players hate wavedashing so much that they ban it at their ****ty tournaments. People will always hate some aspect of something. I hate when people cut me off in traffic. Some people don't give a ****. It's great that we can all hate and like the things we want.

It's the same thing as O.Sagat. He's not broken, but the Japanese consider the game to be better without that *******. I think Brawl is better without ******** infinites and excessive camping.
 

WoodyWiggins

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
445
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Yeah, finally a fighting game included that ****. About time!
That's not what I meant. The objective in Brawl, to rack up damage and ring out your opponent(s) requires you to think differently. Since Brawl's mechanics are tweaked to a more "casual" or defensive setting, all out button mashing and "technical skill" has taken second place. I'm not saying that it isn't important, just saying that is doesn't have to be so prominent.

No one ****ing practices Melee combos, don't be a ******. Melee doesn't have automatic combos like Street Fighter because of DI, so practicing that **** would make no sense.
People do practice Melee combos.


You shouldn't drink so heavily.
:glare:


Not if you like your fighting games boring and ****ty.
What makes a combo, a combo? Really, because each game has a unique timing to combos. Street Fighter 4's combo system is different than Smash 64's combo system. If you tried to time your combos in SF4 like the combos in Smash 64, it wouldn't be a combo in SF4, so does that mean it really isn't a true combo? Because no one has really been able to make practical use of Brawl's combo system (combo timing), people have been creating and judging what a combo is based on other video games. Like the 0% death combo's and item/jab locks, infinites and etc, just because it doesn't register on the Consecutive hits meter, doesn't mean that it is not a combo, when you compare the timing and the ability for the opponent to escape, to other fighting games.

Off topic, but I believe I have found a new method of creating consecutive hits with Falcon. Since he has a, ridiculous start up lag when dashing, late hit aerial attacks can be chained with a dash canceled jump. It's nothing new, I know, but it's how you use that makes it new.

Example
Fast Fall Nair, buffered Jab, Dash Canceled Jump Bair.
If you time it right, it registers as 4 Consecutive hits. But why would you want to do that?

The timing makes it almost impractical, and if you succeed in landing all hits in a timely manner, but it doesn't register as 4 consecutive hits, is it still a combo? Does it make it any less entertaining?


Have you ever attended a tournament? That's all that ****ing happens!
No, not all the time. And when it does, it makes the infinites, 0 deaths and locks this much more exciting.

You shouldn't take prescription drugs and then drink heavily.
Stop watching me.
:oneeye:
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
And here's no explanation as to why! WHEEEEEEEE!
Because the part below where you cut off here explained it, silly.

What does match watching have to do with slashed tires? In my example, tire slashing would not be against the rules. So I suppose someone watching you do it could tattle about something legal...which would really accomplish nothing. You should consider proofreading your nonsense.
Because there are people watching games being played.

If someone see you do a banned tactic or pick something that is banned, people can see it. Still camping is not banned nor playing defensive.

With slashing tires is, if you could get away with it, which would require you to find all of your competitors home address', which means you most likely had to break into your boss' office to get the resumes/files on them, then drove to each individual house while no one was looking, broke into each garage for those not outside the house, slashed their tires and drove off.

So in one example a player camped or played defensive, in another, a person performed Breaking and entering multiple times, stole company records, and vandalized cars.

Your example is bad since one has three criminal acts taking place, and a lot of effort with little chance of not being caught, over someone using a legal tactic in a fighting game.

So "playing defensively or abusing a tactic on a stage that might need to be banned isn't" have its limits? Try using English that makes sense. Also, it is "its," not "it's." "Its" denotes possession, and "it's" is a contraction.
If the melee community leaves a tactic/character/stage available to be used, it's fair game to use it.

You're the hoe!
Oh look more insults, how cute.

It seems like I may have used hyperbole in an analogy to both make a point and inject humor. I can explain everything I say from now on if you want. I assumed this was a big boy talk and we would both be able to identify the core argument and weed out any exaggeration, but shame on me for forgetting that this is the internet, your name is Red Ryu, and you think Brawl is good. What was I thinking!?

A good example of KKK members high fiving? No but I'm sure you can just google it. Seriously, an EXAMPLE OF WHAT? YOU SPEAK NONSENSE.
Honestly, thinking that a person part of a racist hate group is comparable to a player who camps to win is laughable.

One is part of a race supremest group that wants to make it's race superior where as another is using a legal tactic to win a video game.

See previous KKK argument, since this is the same ****ing point you made before. Let's play the repeat game, because if I say it differently, it will be more right the next time!
While the KKK can hate who they want for whatever illogical reasons, because of freedom of speech or whatever, you really haven't shown how this is relevant to someone playing campy in a video game.

1.) I am too, but that doesn't stop people from HATING it so much that against reason they want it removed because they feel it RUINS THE ****ING GAME.
2.) It is never game breaking, ever. The game is broken already, and this one little thing amounts to just 1 grain of salt in the failure ocean that is Brawl.
They think removing it is better than banning MK, which I disagree.

And the tactic is broken on paper, MK is only vulnerable for 1 frame if he does it right.

Because I am a good player and I am very knowledgeable. Why are you a mod?
I'm a mod because I have shown myself to be a part of this community to help keep things in check.

Your discussion with me and others has involved insults and half trolling remarks.

I guess when I said I can't watch videos, you thought I meant I choose not to watch the videos. I CAN'T WATCH THE ****ING VIDEOS.

I'm on lunch at work. I use my breaks to post. Youtube is blocked. CAN'T WATCH VIDEOS.

But I'm sure all of the videos posted are ****ty and stupid, so I won't use the fact I can't see them as an excuse.
You claimed the players were bad without watching the video, so when you have a chance you can watch the grand finals of Gluttony, who has beaten Ally, vs Kyon.

Casual players hate wavedashing so much that they ban it at their ****ty tournaments. People will always hate some aspect of something. I hate when people cut me off in traffic. Some people don't give a ****. It's great that we can all hate and like the things we want.

It's the same thing as O.Sagat. He's not broken, but the Japanese consider the game to be better without that *******. I think Brawl is better without ******** infinites and excessive camping.
Can you ban excessive camping is a discrete way? Or is this going to be entirely subjective in which you can't say what excessive is without being subjective?
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
I think its a telling sign when I can't manage to completely watch a video Red Ryu ever posts, let alone read these walls of text.


tldr brawl is boring
 

JOE!

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
8,075
Location
Dedham, MA
I think its a telling sign when I can't manage to completely watch a video Red Ryu ever posts, let alone read these walls of text.


tldr brawl is boring
tldr: my one opinion speaks for everyone ever who has ever posted about this topic ever because I am shanus
 

ArcNatural

Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
2,964
Location
Boston, MA
What does match watching have to do with slashed tires? In my example, tire slashing would not be against the rules. So I suppose someone watching you do it could tattle about something legal...which would really accomplish nothing. You should consider proofreading your nonsense.

With slashing tires is, if you could get away with it, which would require you to find all of your competitors home address', which means you most likely had to break into your boss' office to get the resumes/files on them, then drove to each individual house while no one was looking, broke into each garage for those not outside the house, slashed their tires and drove off.

So in one example a player camped or played defensive, in another, a person performed Breaking and entering multiple times, stole company records, and vandalized cars.

Your example is bad since one has three criminal acts taking place, and a lot of effort with little chance of not being caught, over someone using a legal tactic in a fighting game.
wat?

I think you need to learn to use analogies properly. I have no idea what you proved or didn't prove here.





Honestly, thinking that a person part of a racist hate group is comparable to a player who camps to win is laughable.

One is part of a race supremest group that wants to make it's race superior where as another is using a legal tactic to win a video game.

While the KKK can hate who they want for whatever illogical reasons, because of freedom of speech or whatever, you really haven't shown how this is relevant to someone playing campy in a video game.
I think the fact that your taking a racist hate group and comparing it almost literally to a player who camps laughable. IF you don't understand what Sliq is trying to say, you can ask him to explain it differently, but don't just take what he says and flip it so that it makes even less sense.

I don't think Brawl is hurt by it's combo mechanics. I think it's mainly hurt by it's speed. It doesn't matter how hard or technical something can be if the gameplay for the viewers is just extremely slow. You you usually have to enjoy the game to really enjoy watching the videos. Because your not going to know how complicated something is when it's all spacing and feints.

Look at SF for example. A ton of that game is a lot of footsie/spacing/feints etc. Most of that stuff the casual fan doesn't care about, or a bypasser won't even realize is going on. They obtain pleasure from viewing the easier part of the game, the simple 3-4 hit combos to ultra or super. Or just plain doing the specials.

Since Brawl took out the specials (honestly, we all know they were pretty bad to begin with) and it doesn't have really cool finishing combos for the most part, I find it can only really be enjoyed by the crowd that understands that the real complexity of the game is about the spacing/feinting game involved.

The main things I enjoy about melee is that it does have a decent amount of combo finishers, tech chases (MUCH more prominent in melee) and a bit fast movement. If I were a casual gamer or viewer, I would think the only thing they would be impressed with is the combo finishers for the most part.
 

Sliq

Smash Master
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Because there are people watching games being played.

If someone see you do a banned tactic or pick something that is banned, people can see it. Still camping is not banned nor playing defensive.

With slashing tires is, if you could get away with it, which would require you to find all of your competitors home address', which means you most likely had to break into your boss' office to get the resumes/files on them, then drove to each individual house while no one was looking, broke into each garage for those not outside the house, slashed their tires and drove off.

So in one example a player camped or played defensive, in another, a person performed Breaking and entering multiple times, stole company records, and vandalized cars.

Your example is bad since one has three criminal acts taking place, and a lot of effort with little chance of not being caught, over someone using a legal tactic in a fighting game.
Ok, since you dumb****s can't get passed my analogy due to a learnign disability, let's say I call the competition on the phone and say your mother is in the hospital. They go to the hospital, missing their interview. Happy now? Goddammit, the fact that you nitpick a silly analogy instead of SEEING THE POINT I WAS MAKING makes me wish I had your addresses and a box of dynamite.

If the melee community leaves a tactic/character/stage available to be used, it's fair game to use it.
...goddammit...It is fair use, but if you use a tactic that people don't like, then they WON'T LIKE YOU! Look, I'm ****ing repeating myself, AGAIN. Look back to Ty Cobb example...I'm not saying ban **** that people don't like. I'm not telling you ro be cut throat. I'm saying if you play like a douchebag no one will like you. The next time you post the same thing, I'm just going to reply with a random image letting you know that you are being a ******.

Oh look more insults, how cute.
You started it.

Honestly, thinking that a person part of a racist hate group is comparable to a player who camps to win is laughable.
Yeah, no **** it is. I TOLD YOU IT WAS WHEN I EXPLAINED IT WAS A JOKE. Goddammit. I was going to say you are the stupidest mod ever, but then I realized that your intelligence is probably somewhere in the middle when it comes to mods.

While the KKK can hate who they want for whatever illogical reasons, because of freedom of speech or whatever, you really haven't shown how this is relevant to someone playing campy in a video game.
No, it makes sense. You just fail to see it as I do, even though I know you are fully capable of. Instead you nitpick and claim to be stupid, which I can agree with, but still, you should put a little effort into understanding what I'm saying.

I'm a mod because I have shown myself to be a part of this community to help keep things in check.
Anyone can ****ing do that. I figured you had another qualification, besides being stupid.

Your discussion with me and others has involved insults and half trolling remarks.
It's only trolling if the person you are talking to doesn't understand you are joking. Which isn't really on me so much as on you for being an idiot. And I insult because it blows my mind that instead of putting yourself in my shoes, you nitpick ridiculous **** that was made to be ridiculous in the first place.

You claimed the players were bad without watching the video, so when you have a chance you can watch the grand finals of Gluttony, who has beaten Ally, vs Kyon?
Hey, look at that, you did something helpful and posted player names! Now I can watch a player I've heard of beat one I've never heard of to prove that someone can play offensively against someone of equal skill. Oh, wait....how many tournaments has Kyon won? I don't know because I have never heard of him.

I beat Chibo Sempai's Rob with Ganondorf. Doesn't mean jack ****.

Can you ban excessive camping is a discrete way? Or is this going to be entirely subjective in which you can't say what excessive is without being subjective?
I'm not trying to ban anything. I'm saying 1.) you can only be successful in Brawl by being extremely defensive 2.) if you abuse tactics which people consider lame, people won't like you and you'll miss out on what used to be an awesome community. That's all I'm saying. You seem to think that I want to regulate ****, when all I'm saying is that camping, infinites, and all other "lame" tactics are stupid. Use them if you want, but I'm not giving your *** a ride to a tournament anywhere, nor are you invited to my place for smashfests.
 

JOE!

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the problem A Pimp Named Slickback, is that entertainment value (boring or not) is subjective thus not "fact"
 
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JOE!

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A Pimp named Slickback, the problem is that I could easily say Melee is Boring, thats a Fact, and theres no way for you to say Im wrong "factually".
 
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Why are you in the MBR?
Sliq is in the MBR because he understands the game and is able to debate well. You on the other hand seem to misconstrue the points of others intentionally. You've diverted, twisted, or ignored off so many ideas presented to you that I can only rationally assume that you're doing it on purpose.

Sliq: What are you doing? The point of a debate is to make your case in an objective way under the assertion that, should your case be objectively correct and supported with evidence, it will be accepted by others that formerly had an opposing viewpoint. The only person you seem to be arguing with is Red Ryu, who has made it quite clear that he has no intention to consider what you say in a logical manner. You also do not seem to be addressing other people directly in this thread either. Just leave this thread be and focus your intellect where it is more useful.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Sliq's post
I can discuss this another time when you calm down, as it stands I'm not going to respond to this if you continue to use insults, like saying how good my mom was, rather than a discussion.

wat?

I think you need to learn to use analogies properly. I have no idea what you proved or didn't prove here.
One act is clearly breaking multiple laws that are set in stone while the other isn't since there are no rules against playing defensive or camping if it doesn't make the game unplayable.

I think the fact that your taking a racist hate group and comparing it almost literally to a player who camps laughable. IF you don't understand what Sliq is trying to say, you can ask him to explain it differently, but don't just take what he says and flip it so that it makes even less sense.
Don't you mean Sliq's example? Since I never compared them.

Sliq hath learneth a valuable lesson. Thou shall not **** with Bawrl in General Barwl Discussion lest yee banished.
People can say they hate Brawl.
People can't say it in a harassing, flaming, or trolling way.

Sliq is in the MBR because he understands the game and is able to debate well. You on the other hand seem to misconstrue the points of others intentionally. You've diverted, twisted, or ignored off so many ideas presented to you that I can only rationally assume that you're doing it on purpose.

Sliq: What are you doing? The point of a debate is to make your case in an objective way under the assertion that, should your case be objectively correct and supported with evidence, it will be accepted by others that formerly had an opposing viewpoint. The only person you seem to be arguing with is Red Ryu, who has made it quite clear that he has no intention to consider what you say in a logical manner. You also do not seem to be addressing other people directly in this thread either. Just leave this thread be and focus your intellect where it is more useful.
As I said last time, point this out and I will address this. Unless your making this up to attempt at a point.
 

thesage

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I watched some of those videos. I noticed everything in brawl boils down to "I hit you, now I space some more so now I can hit you again." I haven't seen any really true combos outside of grabs or really specific ones. Nothing on the same level of melee's versatile combo system.

In melee you could play like that if you were a character like Samus, jigglypuff or Luigi. In melee you can also play aggressively.
 

shanus

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Messages
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A Named SLickback - that post made me lol hard. Nice work.

Also, given the fact of Sakurai's latest news release concerning the design intent of brawl as compared to melee - i feel like this question has been answered in truth by the design creator
 

JOE!

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A Named SLickback - that post made me lol hard. Nice work.

Also, given the fact of Sakurai's latest news release concerning the design intent of brawl as compared to melee - i feel like this question has been answered in truth by the design creator
yeah, hopefully the next one may be at least competitively viable in the sense that theres not one "god" among the chars, and stupid crap doesnt reign...


Also Slickback, no need to try and insult me, i was just saying you had no backing :p


also, whats the last thing say on the 2nd page?
 

DAS

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No it doesn't hurt the game it only hurts the people want that stuff. Complaining about it won't do anything about it, you just going to strain your brain and waste time putting it out there.
 

Sliq

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Messages
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brawl is a really good game, it has lots of mindgames
No it doesn't hurt the game it only hurts the people want that stuff. Complaining about it won't do anything about it, you just going to strain your brain and waste time putting it out there.
Your words hurt my brain.

I can discuss this another time when you calm down, as it stands I'm not going to respond to this if you continue to use insults, like saying how good my mom was, rather than a discussion.
Hey, I NEVER claimed your mother was good. Average would be how I'd rate that interaction.

One act is clearly breaking multiple laws that are set in stone while the other isn't since there are no rules against playing defensive or camping if it doesn't make the game unplayable.
Once again: those are man made laws and not laws of reality, such as gravity or time. A man made law in brawl is different that one programmed in by the "creator." AGAIN.

People can say they hate Brawl.
People can't say it in a harassing, flaming, or trolling way.
Yeah you can, that's what I've been doing this whole time!

As I said last time, point this out and I will address this. Unless your making this up to attempt at a point.
This is a trap. If you do this, he'll repeat himself until you kill yourself because you think you're Bill Murray in Groundhog Day.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Hey, I NEVER claimed your mother was good. Average would be how I'd rate that interaction.
Ok,

If I did that then I wouldn't be able to describe in great detail about how I plowed the **** out of your mom last night. But that's another story for another time.
I downplayed what you initially said.

Once again: those are man made laws and not laws of reality, such as gravity or time. A man made law in brawl is different that one programmed in by the "creator." AGAIN.
Competition is what the community makes it, the man made laws are the ones we make and change, BBR rule sets and MBR rule sets for example.

No where is playing like an *** banned on the MBR's ruleset. You can choose to insult them for this IRL, but they are entitled to play like this if they choose to, since it is a fair and legal tactic.

Yeah you can, that's what I've been doing this whole time!
Which examples why your recent posts go infraction and you were banned til those points expired.

I won't discuss this point any further and will ignore discussion about it.

This is a trap. If you do this, he'll repeat himself until you kill yourself because you think you're Bill Murray in Groundhog Day.
Your a funny little troll.
 

MonkUnit

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In answer to the question of "Does a lack of "true combos" hurt brawl?" IMO there are two answers to this.

1. Yes, competitively, it does due to what I think the sets should be. Fast, fun, and more offensive and rush down.

2. The way brawl was designed, it is more of a defensive game unless you are a character like Meta Knight who has quick moves with very little landing lag.

Also,

Your a funny little troll.
It should be you're instead of your. Just wanted to point that out.
 

Sliq

Smash Master
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Messages
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Competition is what the community makes it, the man made laws are the ones we make and change, BBR rule sets and MBR rule sets for example.

No where is playing like an *** banned on the MBR's ruleset. You can choose to insult them for this IRL, but they are entitled to play like this if they choose to, since it is a fair and legal tactic.
Then it's fair and legal for no one to like you and you die alone counting the -1000 dollars you made consistently placing 4th and down in tournaments, since only a very small percentage actually make money. So, since earning money from this endeavor is extremely difficult, and it my opinion not worthwhile, then I suppose you'd be playing for fun or for respect. And if you play for respect you don't do what? Act like a *******!

Which examples why your recent posts go infraction and you were banned til those points expired.
 

Big-Cat

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brawl is a really good game, it has lots of mindgames
In all seriousness, every fighting game has "mind games" it's an inherent part of the genre that you cannot take out.

I swear, do most players know about the mental aspect of fighting games? It seems like most people don't. Can't blame them though, if this genre was as popular as FPS games, the mental aspect would be better known.
 

TurnOneWrath

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
40
What makes a combo, a combo? Really, because each game has a unique timing to combos.
I would say a combo is a set of moves strung together that do more effecient and effective damage to the opponent. This can be accomplished by having certain moves "cancel" into one another (shortening the time it takes for the next move to it to less than the time that it would take to do the move by itself), or by some other mode of cancelling a player may find. A combo may also require very easy to very difficult button combinations.

Yesterday, I finally came to the realization that this is completely absent in Brawl, and I was quite let down the way it happened.

I was playing by myself yesterday trying to earn more trophies/music from that Vault thingy. One challenge said "Get 400 combined combos with all characters in Training Mode". So I was trying to figure out what they meant by "Combo" and I tried a few things to no avail. Finally, I decided to just back ROB up against a wall, get Pikachu, and hold down the A button.

That was far from what I would call a 'combo'.
Hold A Button, Light Cigarette, Continue to Hold A while Smoking, Throw Butt Out Window, Let Go of A and enjoy your 999 hit combo is far from what I would call a true "Combo".

I swear, do most players know about the mental aspect of fighting games? It seems like most people don't.
My guess would be no. I would say that 90% of players that play fighting games just mash buttons until a character(s) falls dead.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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It should be you're instead of your. Just wanted to point that out.
...wow my grammar sucks, good think I'm not an English major.

Then it's fair and legal for no one to like you and you die alone counting the -1000 dollars you made consistently placing 4th and down in tournaments, since only a very small percentage actually make money. So, since earning money from this endeavor is extremely difficult, and it my opinion not worthwhile, then I suppose you'd be playing for fun or for respect. And if you play for respect you don't do what? Act like a *******!
I don't think this is the proper attitude to give players for playing to win. I may not like a tactic, but I don't think insulting them or trying to exclude them from the smash community is the right thing to do.

I mean, what's gay to you isn't gay to someone else and if we're playing to win that shouldn't have value on who they are as a person. DMG plays gay and hell but he's one of the more community caring smashers. I think not playing to win against me or sandbagging in a tournament set is complete disrespectful. If someone is that much better than me, I want to get wrecked so I can learn how to improve rather than learning little to nothing off being sandbagged.

You can hate them if they act like a ******* IRL, being disrespectful with verbal abuse, physical abuse, etc. Playing defensive going for timeouts says nothing about them as a person. Then playing to win has nothing to do if they are an *** or not, that says something about their competitive philosophy but nothing about them as a person. I really think that kind of attitude to hate them for who they play or how they play is only going to hurt our community rather than make it better.
 
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