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Q&A Doc's Tips: A Little Mac Q&A Thread

Gavi1195

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Little Mac is a varied character when it comes to playstyle. The idea is basic, but there isn't just one specific way to play it. Your not playing Mac wrong, your simply taking a different approach. Most Good Macs that I fought use a Defensive/Rush tactic. Mac is built with an aggressive set in his moves and it can be very devastating due to his frame data. So the trick is to get near the opponent and pressure them safely until you see an opportunity or they make a mistake handing your pressure. From what you said, you seem to be a Tower Defense Mac. You rely on baiting the opponent to attack and use your quick reactions and frame data to punish accordingly. Not a wrong way to play Mac, personally, but it has some worrying drawbacks. I think you should consider adding a bit of a more aggressive style into your defense on certain circumstances. If your style becomes predictable, it can be turned against you. For example: If I catch on that your trying to bait me, I would focus on spacing you and infuriating you with projectiles, spacing attack or hit and run tactics. This takes away stage control from you because you are giving me liberty to do whatever I can come up with. Hope this helps and just keep going and playing how you want! :p
 

Ssbm_Jag

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Question. What sides of little mac are disjointed hitboxes during the active frames of his up+b? Is it more disjointed during the startup frames? Is the move disjointed on the bottom, top, or sides? I've seen mac seemingly suck people into the move when being combo'd, but I could be wrong.
 

LCC Son-in-Law

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@Top Boss I merged your thread into the Q&A thread. Also, I also play my little mac in a similar way to this!


Question. What sides of little mac are disjointed hitboxes during the active frames of his up+b? Is it more disjointed during the startup frames? Is the move disjointed on the bottom, top, or sides? I've seen mac seemingly suck people into the move when being combo'd, but I could be wrong.
I don't think it's disjointed. I believe it just has a large hitbox on the sides. That, plus the Frame 1 invincibility, would explain why it is pulling people into the move while being combo'd. I might be wrong about this, but from what I can tell this makes the most sense :x
 

Ssbm_Jag

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Thanks, it's too bad there aren't pictures for little mac's hitbox data. What I want to know, is if little mac's recovery trades with weak multi-hit dairs, like fox's, peach's, or wario's or outright beats them. Thanks again.
 
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Boss N

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I apologize if this was already asked but:

How crucial are techs like Trot-Dancing & perfect pivoting and other movement options to mac's gameplay?
Trying to pick these up and it's incredibly difficult, but lately I feel so limited to what Mac can do without them.

If they are crucial whats the best way to apply them?

and has perfect pivoting been patched out? & are there any other techs I'm missing that I should learn?
 

jet56

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p pivoting and trot dancing isn't essential, but does make mac a ton better in terms of gameplay. the biggest reason i like both techs, is because they help with spacing and footsies. there are only a couple moves that are safe on shield for mac, and ONLY when they are spaced right:
dtilt
jab
ftilt
u tilt (certain characters only)

see, here's the thing, and i know this from experience. having gone to a number of high scale tourneys, and having faced some of the best players from the southwest region, i learned that most Advanced players have a very easy way of dealing with little mac, shieldgrabbing. see, even the moves above can be beat out by shieldgrabbing, since it comes out without the shield drop lag. i have been shieldgrabbed out of even jab 1 before i could get to jab 2. and grabbing someone on shield is a good counter, but macs grab range is beyond bad, so if you wiff, or if they spot dodge on anticipation or reaction, you in turn get punished instead. and trying to go from a dtilt or jab to grab isn't fast enough, since you have to go through both end lag on your move, and startup lag of the grab, while they only have to go through the startup animation of their grab. So you have to space the moves i mentioned above properly, to stay out of shieldgrab range, and be safe. however, trying to space it with just standard dashing or walking is difficult, and if your opponent moves even a little, it could throw off your spacing entirely (or they could use a move that outspaces your move.)

That is where p pivoting and trot dancing comes into play. Trot dancing covers a ton of ground really fast, and when mastered, can set you into a good general position for applying pressure. you then use p pivoting to either use retreating or advancing tilt, retreating p pivot tilts if you are too close, advancing tilts when you are too far. you can even p pivot from a trot dance to get into a good spacing position immediately. and also, little mac has the best p pivots and dance trots in the game, so he benefits much more from it than most other characters.

you should also learn:
roll boosted grabs
ledge trumping
jab reset (jab lock)

of course, these aren't as essential as dance trotting or p pivoting, but are useful to know. to be honest, little mac is in my opinion a C- in tourney viability, until you master dance trotting or p pivoting, then he jumps to B- or B in viability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87ir5Ahi2I (mvg sol)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S39bfpsFGlY (apachi, Apa)

check out the links above, these guys play little mac using these techs, and play little mac at their best. also check out J.A.P.A.N and Stylesx2, they also play little mac well, but they don't go to tourneys. hope that helps. :)
 

Kaladin

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What should your spacing be like with mac? I gather that you want to use primarily jab, dtilt, and retreating pivot ftilt in neutral with mac. Of course, these all have different applications and ranges. Could someone give me a visual representation of Mac's optimal range/spacing in neutral? Thanks!
 

THE_GAME98

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Hey Guys I'm new to smash boards! I have an upcoming (important) match against a Bowser and need some tips. Thank you guys in advance^^!
 

_LINK3N_

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If it's without customs, you can Edgeguard with DSmash pretty reliably.
Plus, you can edge-Cancel your KO-Punch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqhR1ogjQEE). To Edge-Cancel rapid jab them near the edge and spam B (also works if UpB or SideB). A + B = Smash HAS to be diasbled in your controller options!
 
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TakeYourHeart

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I don't know how skilled this Bowser is, but the rules of the match-up are same as always, exploit end-lag, stay clear of all Smashes, Jolt Haymaker over fire if need be and out maneuver.

Due to Bowser's heavy armor, jab is very punishable at the start of the match, so don't do it till he's at mid to high %.
 

inconspikuous

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so i was in a for glory mac ditto the other day (i know, i know...), and something really weird happened at the end. if someone could figure out exactly how he reversed his KO punch after the ledgehop cancel (which is what i think he was going for), that'd be great, thanks:


if it's something we can reproduce, i think it could be useful -- because if you do a normal ledgehop cancel KO, if the opponent is standing right by the edge, you will whiff because mac will go too far past him. with this technique, (if we can reproduce it) mac should be able to cover the 'right on the edge' space as well as rolls to the edge. someone with more tech knowledge pls lab it, thanks!
 

darkman

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Need advice on fighting pacman. His trampoline recovery is used to space mac away/force him into the air, side bing over it sometimes works but usually results in me getting grabbed. Also ive seen the tampoline more and more used to break away on the spot and setup the hydrant. :ohwell:
 

inconspikuous

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Need advice on fighting pacman. His trampoline recovery is used to space mac away/force him into the air, side bing over it sometimes works but usually results in me getting grabbed. Also ive seen the tampoline more and more used to break away on the spot and setup the hydrant. :ohwell:
a pretty good pacman main on the ladder used that tactic with the trampoline on-stage against me to force mac to jump. his feedback after he bodied me was (paraphrased) 'don't get impatient. wait for it to disappear.' yeah, i mean, that doesn't sound like the 'greatest' advice, but it's better than going in risky.
 

darkman

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hrm, so better to allow the free projectile charge rather than attempt to pursue?
 

inconspikuous

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hrm, so better to allow the free projectile charge rather than attempt to pursue?
if attempting to pursue would put you in danger, then i would say yes. like it could mean the difference between taking 30% damage and being gimped. stock>damage. really how do you plan on getting around that trampoline? jumping in? side B? both unreliable, unless the pacman is caught slipping. at least waiting for it to disappear you're still in 'neutral' and not at disadvantage (albeit, the pacman is technically applying pressure by charging the fruit).
 

Zarxrax

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How do you combo little mac's rapid jab into the ko punch? I can't seem to figure out the timing on this.
 

jet56

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its a ledge cancel, the momentum of the rapid jab will push you off the edge, if you mash b while holding a, you will buffer the k.o. punch and get the combo perfect. it only works on the edge though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzhuS8K18Yo courtesy of stylesx2, heres a tutorial on it.
 

Lufos

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Hey!
I've been searching for some stage discussions but havent found any.
What do you guys think is his best/worst stages, and are there any "must bans"? Personally I've been banning duck hunt and dreamland, I just get platform camped to death on these stages. The platforms on DL seems too high.

I always pick tnc or halberd if they let me, which they often do since people like to ban FD, which leaves at least one of those 2 open. If not I pick lylat or castle siege, i find both of them pretty nice for us.

Also how do you guys handle platform camping on lets say BF? Its really hard if you get behind.
 

jet56

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Stay away from Lylat and Duck hunt at all costs, lylat tilts back and forth, making it even harder to recover, and duck hunt people can camp on top of the tree and force you to approach in the air. you want FD, but are also good on smashville and town and city. most other stages are more neutral for him.
 

inconspikuous

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EDIT: here's the link to the ghetto mac board's stage discussion

sorry jet, i don't mean to keep following your posts, but i disagree. lylat is a terrible stage, but it's not mac's worst because he can upsmash through all the plats, and the tilting actually helps against people with linear projectiles like fox, falco, luigi, or greninja because their projectiles don't follow the tilt. don't let pikachu bring you here though, pretty sure they can qac on the entire stage.

if you're facing a campy person, duck hunt can be terrible because of the tree, but the stage is actually pretty good for mac besides that, because the walls can be jumped, assisting his recovery. i've seen sol pick it a couple times, and i'm assuming it's for that specific reason, as there aren't very many tourney-legal stages where his wall jump is easily accessible. to counteract the tree camp, you may be able to kill a duck and ride the dog's head for the vertical assist.

imo smashville is mac's worst stage. the platform cannot be reached without a serious commitment (1st jump can't reach it, must use 2nd jump or upB), so if you're playing a campy person, it is worse than duck hunt by far. if you're facing sheik, ness, luigi, pikachu, etc., they can fair string you all the way to the blast zone because of the platform. you will not want to play on this stage versus any of those types of characters.

FD is probably his best choice. battlefield is my preferred second choice, although when a character camps the top platform it can be a grueling match. the two lower plats can be sharked with upsmash and the top plat can be sharked with upB. T&C is my alternate choice if both of those are banned, as the low ceiling helps mac, and the platforms can help with recovery sometimes. and when they're not available, you're basically playing on FD.

if it's available my preferred counterpick is castle siege. you can wall jump and upsmash shark the plats on the 1st transformation, you can't get gimped on the 2nd transformation, and you are basically playing on FD with tilting (see lylat above) on the 3rd transformation. not to mention the in-between transformations have saved me more times than i can count. if you know you're not going to make it back, you can try to air-stall for as long as possible with counter and you may just be saved by the transformations.

halberd is okay, as the lowered ceiling is good for mac, and you can wall jump the 2nd transformation, but try not to allow rob, rosalina, or DK to take you here, because if they grab you on the top platform, you will probably die (post-patch, i don't think luigi's hoo haa works reliably anymore).

delfino is a mixed bag. you could potentially win big on the janky ceilings, multiple transformations, and walk-offs, but you can just as easily be janked out, and if someone takes you to delfino, they're likely trying to jank you out of stocks, or so zero says. other than the transformations, it's a pretty bad stage for mac. he can't shark the platforms reliably, and it is more difficult to recover, as there are no wall jumps and/or slanted ledges to abuse when recovering.
 
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jet56

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its cool man, i don't mind disagreements, thats how we come up with accurate analysis and results. and some aspects do come down to play style and preference. ill post later on what i think of each stage, but im going to a tourney, but incon, keep posting, constructive criticism doesn't hurt anybody.
 

Prometheus16

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Okay, I have seen videos of Little Macs going into the KO Punch from his jab combo....and then it eventually happened to m on For Glory....

Yet, no matter how much I try, I can't do it. How exactly does this thing work?
 

jet56

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are you talking about his rapid jab, or just jab 1 2? if its rapid jab, its a ledge cancel they are doing, just mash B while you are holding a, you willl do a k.o. punch right when you get pushed over the edge from your rapid jab. if its just jab jab, just hit A 2 times, then B immediately after.
 

Prometheus16

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are you talking about his rapid jab, or just jab 1 2? if its rapid jab, its a ledge cancel they are doing, just mash B while you are holding a, you willl do a k.o. punch right when you get pushed over the edge from your rapid jab. if its just jab jab, just hit A 2 times, then B immediately after.
How does that work? Wouldn't he just fall off of the ledge, or do the KO Punch in the air (which is significantly weaker from my understanding)?
 

H@ym@ker

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Thinking about picking up Mac as a secondary to my villager. I've played around with him a bit and have seen some success, but want to know one thing before I put all the time in. My question is this:

How well does he cover Villager's weaknesses?

I've noticed his core strength and objective is stage control, which is also villager's. But the difference is that mac does it from the middle of the stage, grounded, speedy and up close, as opposed to Villager who does it from afar with zoning and air dominance.

Is playing two characters who have vastly different playstyle but the same objective of controlling the stage a wise way to counter pick? And if so, why is little mac my guy?

And yes, I've already asked this on the villager threads but I wanted to hear it from both sides. Thanks!
 

jet56

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How does that work? Wouldn't he just fall off of the ledge, or do the KO Punch in the air (which is significantly weaker from my understanding)?
he slips off the edge, but the step forward from the k.o. punch gives him a grounded punch on stage.
 

TerraCaty'

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Which members of the cast can be caught/killed in Little Mac's neutral air footstool combo?
Donkey Kong can actually be killed at 0% in the right situation, though I've only had luck with Donkey Kong and Bowser, and the combo on Bowser was much less safe considering that at the end a fastfall up-b is required to kill.

Is anyone else susceptible to it? Even though it's very niche it's been really helpful in those match-ups.
 

Prometheus16

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Which members of the cast can be caught/killed in Little Mac's neutral air footstool combo?
Donkey Kong can actually be killed at 0% in the right situation, though I've only had luck with Donkey Kong and Bowser, and the combo on Bowser was much less safe considering that at the end a fastfall up-b is required to kill.

Is anyone else susceptible to it? Even though it's very niche it's been really helpful in those match-ups.
People have told me that was patched out....
 

jet56

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it hasn't been patched out, its still there, but it only works on certain characters. off the top of my head,:4dk::4sheik::4yoshi: are ones that are susceptible. it all depends on how the character animation works, in that if they get foostooled, is their hurtbox large enough or close enough for nair to reach? most characters end up directly under you when they footstool, so it means you can only do a nair foostool once, but the characters i mentioned above fall in such a way that its in front and below you, so you can hit them with nair to continue the string. i don't have a list of ALL the characters it works on, but those are the ones i know it works on.
 

BoxedOccaBerrys

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Stupid question, but does anyone have a good setup for Mac's Lock or His Aerial NAIR combo? i have trouble attempting to set these up, and i do know what move locks, its his D-air, but i can never find a reliable way to set it up.
 

inconspikuous

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Stupid question, but does anyone have a good setup for Mac's Lock or His Aerial NAIR combo? i have trouble attempting to set these up, and i do know what move locks, its his D-air, but i can never find a reliable way to set it up.
dtilt>nair>footstool>dair lock is the one that sol suggests. and dtilt>aerial nair combo. but you should know those are pretty situational and the aerial combo is character specific.
 

jet56

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Stupid question, but does anyone have a good setup for Mac's Lock or His Aerial NAIR combo? i have trouble attempting to set these up, and i do know what move locks, its his D-air, but i can never find a reliable way to set it up.
Down angled forward smash at mid percents, it has enough knockback to put them into a free fall state, but its small enough to catch someone off guard so they will miss the tech. ftilt at low percents, or a Dtilt>fair at higher percents. none of these are guaranteed like the footstool, but are good mixups to use for tech chases or testing your opponent on missed tech.
 

NotAsian

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Hey guys I was playing this mac and he had a red gold wire frame color has anyone else seen that? Usually the wire frame is green but this was red gold and he was glowing is that a special skin?
 

NotAsian

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Hey guys I was playing this mac and he had a red gold wire frame color has anyone else seen that? Usually the wire frame is green but this was red gold and he was glowing is that a special skin?
Never mind I'm an idiot it's on team smash when your red team he glows red duh
 

Duck SMASH!

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Guys I find a very good Mac player extremely stressful to play against.
Excellent frame data, excellent speed, super armor on smashes, among the best rolls in the game, but that's only the beginning.
I seriously struggle when you add everything else in... Roll cancelled grabs, perfect pivots, excellent mixups of special moves... a good Mac plays in my region and he beats me consistently because I don't know how to answer his intimidating play.
I get baited frequently and punished hard. But most importantly, I really don't know how to juggle Mac effectively and keep him off the ground, especially when he can use counter to break my strings.

For the record, I primarily main Bowser Jr., who struggles the most in this MU of my mains.
Jr. doesn't have many fast attacks with low commitment that Mac cannot punish.

What do?
 

Zoramine Fae

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Guys I find a very good Mac player extremely stressful to play against.
Excellent frame data, excellent speed, super armor on smashes, among the best rolls in the game, but that's only the beginning.
I seriously struggle when you add everything else in... Roll cancelled grabs, perfect pivots, excellent mixups of special moves... a good Mac plays in my region and he beats me consistently because I don't know how to answer his intimidating play.
I get baited frequently and punished hard. But most importantly, I really don't know how to juggle Mac effectively and keep him off the ground, especially when he can use counter to break my strings.

For the record, I primarily main Bowser Jr., who struggles the most in this MU of my mains.
Jr. doesn't have many fast attacks with low commitment that Mac cannot punish.

What do?
I can't say much, but as a Mac main and having a brother that secondaries Bowser Jr. even if he doesn't play that much, and not facing many Bowser Jr.s over online, the best I can say is either change to a secondary if you know your opponent can pull out Little Mac against you, and rely on Mechakoopas. Mechakoopas force Mac to try shielding or just FSmashing their way though it, which can be a nice punish opportunity. In general, honestly, just playing a keep-away game against Macs generally works to beat them, except for against FG Macs. FG Macs are best dealt with by shielding constantly and making sure not to get hit by one of their billion Forward Smashes that they spam out. Otherwise, honestly, as a person who has only played 5 games as Bowser Jr., it's better off just going another main/a secondary to deal with 'em.
 

Ivaness

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Nov 24, 2015
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I need some advice. when ever I get knocked off the ledge i up b and i go a little too high and get punished by a side smash what can I do to prevent this from happening
 
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