Q&A Doc's Tips: A Little Mac Q&A Thread

[Zodiacx10]

Best set ups into K.O. punch at higher percents? I usually do d tilt into KO, but end up whiffing due to too much knockback. Also, is d tilt into up special a true combo that can kill?

you can jab or double jab into ko punch...usually works but depends on the other characters weight and percentage.

also down tilt into up b is a true combo even at high percents...but you have to run forward for a split second and then jump cancel up-b or jump while running then up-b right after

 

[Ghidorah14]

you can jab or double jab into ko punch...usually works but depends on the other characters weight and percentage.

also down tilt into up b is a true combo even at high percents...but you have to run forward for a split second and then jump cancel up-b or jump while running then up-b right after

You can also just do jab into upB.

 

[Zarxrax]

For the past few days I'm been using Little Mac's side b to stage spike opponents who try to recover low. It's won me a couple matches on for glory so far. I'm wondering how is the effectiveness of this move? Is it a useful trick, or is it more of a dangerous gimmick that I've gotten lucky with a few times? Any tips for how to do it more effectively?

Also can anyone comment on when does it make sense to use the up-angled forward smash? It kills at later percent than up smash, so I don't really see the point.

Additional question since no one has answered yet: I was fighting against another little mac , and whiffed my KO punch, but the wind from the punch knocked him off stage and killed him. I've been trying to reproduce this in training mode, but the cpu doesn't budge an inch. What gives?

 

[Paper Maribro]

What's the most essential AT that I should know?

 

[inconspikuous]

For the past few days I'm been using Little Mac's side b to stage spike opponents who try to recover low. It's won me a couple matches on for glory so far. I'm wondering how is the effectiveness of this move? Is it a useful trick, or is it more of a dangerous gimmick that I've gotten lucky with a few times? Any tips for how to do it more effectively?

Also can anyone comment on when does it make sense to use the up-angled forward smash? It kills at later percent than up smash, so I don't really see the point.

Additional question since no one has answered yet: I was fighting against another little mac , and whiffed my KO punch, but the wind from the punch knocked him off stage and killed him. I've been trying to reproduce this in training mode, but the cpu doesn't budge an inch. What gives?

i thought someone else would answer so i left this, but if you're still looking for answers:

1. sideB back to stage is effective, especially against characters that don't have a hitbox on their recoveries (i.e. pit, rosaluma, dhd, villager, etc.). irl and against better opponents, they will tech the stage spike, or worse, read it and gimp you before the hitbox comes out, so it's not as effective at higher levels of play. still, it's a good mixup and even if you mess up the timing, you can often get a ledge trump. my method is to time their recovery, run off the ledge, sideB back to ledge. search 'akhous little mac' montages on youtube and you'll see a bunch of these.

2. up-angled forward smash is great as an anti-air against aerials. the move takes a step forward with super armor, so opponents who think they're safe by landing with an aerial because mac doesn't jump often will get super armor punished. the up-angled forward smash will also usually kill earlier than the normal forward smash unless you're at the edge of the stage. the upsmash will not catch better opponents unless they really commit to landing right on top of you. the step forward is key. oh, and personally, it's a little bit harder to pivot upsmash than to pivot up-angled forward smash.

3. KO punch's windbox is weird. sometimes you whiff and there's a lot of wind to push the opponent away. i find it's usually when the opponent's back is faced towards you.

hope that helped.

What's the most essential AT that I should know?

1. don't dash attack against an opponent standing at the ledge.

2. don't sideB off-stage.

3. don't use your second jump very early after getting hit unless absolutely necessary or mixing up your recovery.

i know those aren't ATs. you'd be surprised how these small changes will bring a terrible mac player from bad to average. as far as 'essential ATs' (i dislike the idea of 'AT's' lol. fundamentals are much more important than 'AT's'.) the two most useful that i find are 1) 'run-away' pivot fsmashes; and 2) dance-trotting. 1) 'run-away' pivot fsmashes allow you to space your fsmashes so they punish with super armor. 2) dance-trotting is one of mac's best movement options and will really mess with your opponent's sense of timing since mac's running speed is so fast. some people call this the 'dempsey roll'. anyway it's a lot better than dashing forward and rolling backwards like i see a lot of macs do.

 

[diglett]

What does everyone generally set the c-stick to? I'm trying to add perfect pivots to my game. Attack gives awesome range and speed with perfect pivot f-tilt. Perfect pivot f-smash has super armor so you can make ridiculous reads. I can't make up my mind.

 

[EarthBound18]

Do you guys think Little Mac is an awful character?

This is NOT a flame post, I actually believe he's pretty good, but when it comes to FFAs and all stages open, is he really the worst character? The people I play with, say he's the worst character in the game, because of his recovery. They claim that the only time Little Macs win if people don't know the match up, And I find it easier said than done to simply throw him off stage and hit a few well timed aeirals. I find him simple to pick up but hard to master because of his abysmal air and recovery.

In short

Competitively - how does he fair?

Casual FFA all stages- how does he fair?

 

[Champ Gold]

Mac is far and beyond from the worst character in the game. If anyone tells you otherwise they are absolutely scrub tier or a casual who goes off of memes.

He has a horrid recovery but that doesn't stop him. From his insanely strong attacks that can all KO, super armor, speed and how much damage he can puff off, he's mid tier at best and low mid tier at worst.


Competitively, he's below average but has a decent rolling depending on the matchup. He's good in doubles

Casually, he's just like the rest of the cast:
Fine. He'll win some and lose some but that's Smash and he won't be a devastating world beater or straight dumpster juice.

Don't based your thoughts on FG mode and punks who probably play Mario and Ness

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

Do you guys think Little Mac is an awful character?

This is NOT a flame post, I actually believe he's pretty good, but when it comes to FFAs and all stages open, is he really the worst character? The people I play with, say he's the worst character in the game, because of his recovery. They claim that the only time Little Macs win if people don't know the match up, And I find it easier said than done to simply throw him off stage and hit a few well timed aeirals. I find him simple to pick up but hard to master because of his abysmal air and recovery.

In short

Competitively - how does he fair?

Casual FFA all stages- how does he fair?

Hey @ EarthBound18 , just letting you know I merged your thread into the Q&A thread.

 

[earla]

I dont see any viability in mac in this meta especially with new platform(some higher) stages being introduced. ive won a number of tournaments and players now will platform camp at any point in the game with percent lead forcing mac into a high risk/no reward scanario.

so im going to use mac as a secondary. obviously he has application in doubles as a powerful character.

so in singles what characters/player archetypes do you guys think mac destroys?

the stages i will consider counter-picking are town and city, fd and halberd.

 

[CHOVI]

I dont see any viability in mac in this meta especially with new platform(some higher) stages being introduced. ive won a number of tournaments and players now will platform camp at any point in the game with percent lead forcing mac into a high risk/no reward scanario.

so im going to use mac as a secondary. obviously he has application in doubles as a powerful character.

so in singles what characters/player archetypes do you guys think mac destroys?

the stages i will consider counter-picking are town and city, fd and halberd.

OMG no T_T Who're you gonna main?

 

[jet56]

Shield stun (or lack of) a problem for little mac

so ive noticed that recently ive had a problem with shield/grab spammers. i don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but almost none of macs attacks are safe on shield, because shield stun is almost non-existent. problem is, his only alternative is grab. and the grab on mac is so notoriously bad, that if i whiff it i get punished, so my spacing has to be perfect on my only safe moves, d-tilt, and sometimes f-tilt (jabs sometimes too). i should mention i am an advanced player and little mac player, so i know his frame data, and advanced techniques, as well as follow-ups and combos. so my questions are:

1. has anyone else had trouble with this on a regular basis, or had to change their game play?

2. have you found any solutions for this problem, and how consistent is it?

3. how often do you see this kind of problem, and what levels of gameplay do you see it and have trouble with (beginner, intermediate, advanced)?

4. is it more difficult to deal with online or offline?

ill answer my own first.

1. i have trouble every 3/10 matches, and have to play a much more defensive mac (i typically play aggro and pressure).

2. typically only using low cooldown, and chipping away at the shield, or grabbing if i think my spacing is right, however, they catch on to the chipping and start rolling and wait for shield to regenerate (and it regenerates stupidly fast), or if i whiff the grab, they punish.

3. as i said, every 3/10 on average, but its heavily abused at mid to high levels of gameplay, because advanced players are exploiting the lack of shield stun in this game. this is also why some of the best charactes in smash (shiek,luigi, rosalina, sonic, captain falcon, etc.) all have good grab games and/or solid aerials, since the grab can be abused, and aerials juggle opponents (not enabling them to shield). little mac has neither of these characteristics, which is why he struggles and is only mid tier.

4. i find that it is more often difficult online, since lag makes timing even worse, and punishes even harder, which encourages more defensive game play online. offline it is still a problem though, since the opponents reaction time is better read, so shielding on reaction then punishing is a reliable and effective way to play.

all in all, i feel that there should be a patch that increases shield stun, not a whole lot, maybe 5-10 frames, but enough so THE ENTIRE CAST can throw out safe moves on shield not not get punished for it, but shielding is still reliable for defense and reads, and there is also still perfect shielding so you can punish out of shield still. i feel that most of the roster's tilts should be safe on shield, and their smashes and certain specials are their hard reads and punishes, or finishers on follow ups.

so, what are your guy's thoughts (btw me first thread please don't judge to hard. )

 

[inconspikuous]

I dont see any viability in mac in this meta especially with new platform(some higher) stages being introduced. ive won a number of tournaments and players now will platform camp at any point in the game with percent lead forcing mac into a high risk/no reward scanario.

so im going to use mac as a secondary. obviously he has application in doubles as a powerful character.

so in singles what characters/player archetypes do you guys think mac destroys?

the stages i will consider counter-picking are town and city, fd and halberd.

oh no, this is a tragedy. good luck with your next main though, i hope it gets you better results than with mac. although i doubt any mac mains will, don't let anyone make u feel bad about switching -- you've done a lot for the mac scene, you don't owe anyone anything.

and to answer your question, i don't think mac 'destroys' any specific character, tbh. either you play perfect and destroy everyone, or you play imperfect and get destroyed by everyone (or get lucky and ko).

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

Shield stun (or lack of) a problem for little mac

so ive noticed that recently ive had a problem with shield/grab spammers. i don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but almost none of macs attacks are safe on shield, because shield stun is almost non-existent. problem is, his only alternative is grab. and the grab on mac is so notoriously bad, that if i whiff it i get punished, so my spacing has to be perfect on my only safe moves, d-tilt, and sometimes f-tilt (jabs sometimes too). i should mention i am an advanced player and little mac player, so i know his frame data, and advanced techniques, as well as follow-ups and combos. so my questions are:

1. has anyone else had trouble with this on a regular basis, or had to change their game play?

2. have you found any solutions for this problem, and how consistent is it?

3. how often do you see this kind of problem, and what levels of gameplay do you see it and have trouble with (beginner, intermediate, advanced)?

4. is it more difficult to deal with online or offline?

ill answer my own first.

1. i have trouble every 3/10 matches, and have to play a much more defensive mac (i typically play aggro and pressure).

2. typically only using low cooldown, and chipping away at the shield, or grabbing if i think my spacing is right, however, they catch on to the chipping and start rolling and wait for shield to regenerate (and it regenerates stupidly fast), or if i whiff the grab, they punish.

3. as i said, every 3/10 on average, but its heavily abused at mid to high levels of gameplay, because advanced players are exploiting the lack of shield stun in this game. this is also why some of the best charactes in smash (shiek,luigi, rosalina, sonic, captain falcon, etc.) all have good grab games and/or solid aerials, since the grab can be abused, and aerials juggle opponents (not enabling them to shield). little mac has neither of these characteristics, which is why he struggles and is only mid tier.

4. i find that it is more often difficult online, since lag makes timing even worse, and punishes even harder, which encourages more defensive game play online. offline it is still a problem though, since the opponents reaction time is better read, so shielding on reaction then punishing is a reliable and effective way to play.

all in all, i feel that there should be a patch that increases shield stun, not a whole lot, maybe 5-10 frames, but enough so THE ENTIRE CAST can throw out safe moves on shield not not get punished for it, but shielding is still reliable for defense and reads, and there is also still perfect shielding so you can punish out of shield still. i feel that most of the roster's tilts should be safe on shield, and their smashes and certain specials are their hard reads and punishes, or finishers on follow ups.

so, what are your guy's thoughts (btw me first thread please don't judge to hard. )

Hey @ jet56 , sorry to ruin your first thread, but I merged it into the Q&A thread. You will most likely have a better chance at people discussing this here then in a new thread.

 

[jet56]

Hey @ jet56 , sorry to ruin your first thread, but I merged it into the Q&A thread. You will most likely have a better chance at people discussing this here then in a new thread.

nah its cool, i wasn't sure if the topic warranted a separate thread or not.

 

[inconspikuous]

what is the best/most reliable technique to throw out reverse utilts/dtilts _without_ moving, or say, out of shield?

i think that knowledge would boost mac's potential a lot. right now, i usually throw out a reverse utilt by perfect pivoting (which is not consistent for me), but it would be great if i were able to consistently reverse utilt punish out of shield without moving, or punish a crossup aerial with a reverse dtilt oos. does anyone have reliable tech that allows you to 'instantly' reverse your position to utilt/dtilt? or is that just a pipe dream?

 

[Zonderion]

Are there any Little Mac mains that are up for trashing my Rosalina and then giving me some pointers afterwards? Ideally tonight or Saturday would be best for me.

If so, PM me.

 

[earla]

sup inconspikous > maybe power shielding?

 

[inconspikuous]

sup inconspikous > maybe power shielding?

i don't quite understand -- powershielding won't turn you around while in shield. for example, say i'm facing right and my opponent is coming from the right -- if i shield/powershield, i'm still facing right and my oos utilt's more desirable hitboxes are away from the opponent. what i'd like to know is if i shield/powershield an attack, what is the best input for a reversed utilt? (ie. turn around/left and utilt into the opponent oos)

 

[shinhed-echi]

Lately, I've been Side+B-ing off the edge more often than ever since I first got the game.
But this is just due to the circumstances where I need to turn around and perform the KO Punch.

What's the best (fastest) alternative to do this without accidentally flying off instead? Could a short-hop reverse B work?

 

[Champ Gold]

Lately, I've been Side+B-ing off the edge more often than ever since I first got the game.
But this is just due to the circumstances where I need to turn around and perform the KO Punch.

What's the best (fastest) alternative to do this without accidentally flying off instead? Could a short-hop reverse B work?

I usually Dash, stop and KO Punch but it's an easy whiff.

Problem is that there isn't any way to use it as effectively on movement.
Well, not that I know of.

Mac's speed and kinda slippery movement makes it hard to time it correctly

 

[earla]

hmm yeh i c. probs what you said.

power shield then turn around utilt/dtilt. or power shield then perfect pivot instant dtilt/utilt

its a good discussion point that youre bringing up. when opponents land right behind mac we don't really have great options.

 

[inconspikuous]

Lately, I've been Side+B-ing off the edge more often than ever since I first got the game.
But this is just due to the circumstances where I need to turn around and perform the KO Punch.

What's the best (fastest) alternative to do this without accidentally flying off instead? Could a short-hop reverse B work?

if you mean out of a dash and then turning around and KO punching, it's actually possible if you JC-B-reverse-KO EDIT: dash-pivot-JCKO.

my input: (dashing right) , (wait for 'squeak and release to neutral)then immediately (which is set to 'special' for me) which will jump cancel your skid into KO punch. i'll try to make a vid of it and post it.

EDIT 2: made two quick one-minute videos. CPU is on lvl 1 (can't send replays of 'training mode') and Blast box is on high so i could get the KO punch quickly. you'll notice two things. first, you can practice the timing of the dash-pivot-JCKO punch by using straight lunge (neutral B). if you have a weird jumpsquat animation (but no jump!) to a reversed straight lunge charge, you did it correctly and a JCKO punch would have come out. second, when you get the timing wrong, you'll see you do a reverse side-B, often with minimal horizontal range. usually this is because you didn't reset the stick to neutral before pressing 'jump-immediately-to-special'. hope this helps! here are the videos:

 

[BlueMenace]

Sometimes I feel I do not know how to approach with Little Mac, especially against someone with projectiles (I.e. Link, Samus), but also just in general. Walking is usually my first option, but I get punished with projectiles. I also wait for an approach and then capitalize on mistakes, but it doesn't seem to be working as well as I would like it to. Any tips?

 

[Ghidorah14]

DASH ATTACK

 

[MaxRevenge]

Hey! Little Mac's my secondary. When approaching, I usually:

1. Mix it up between Full hop (jump) + Fast fall and rolling. Fast falling leaves little room for punishing after jumping over a projectile. His roll is also among the best in the game, so make good use of that too.
2. Dash, and when you see a projectile come, hit shield. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Zarxrax]

I find that side-b over projectiles can work well. In many cases you fly completely over the projectile and you can hit them while they are still in cooldown. Be careful though because you have a lot of cooldown on the side-b, so if your opponent is at low percent, they can hit you before you can act again. At higher percents, you will usually knock them far enough away that you are safe.

 

[Bleezyy]

Fox trot enough until the point where if you roll you will end up behind him. After rolling you can either d tilt or f tilt.

 

[inconspikuous]

*sigh* double post.

anyway, is it common knowledge that sideB autocancels at a very specific height? i saw this video today and at first i thought it was edited, but it looks legit -- sideB autocancels if you use it from a very specific height:

i've never seen this before. if there's practical applications, we should look into it. i'm thinking certain stages (smashville?!!) may have hidden potential.

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

Sometimes I feel I do not know how to approach with Little Mac, especially against someone with projectiles (I.e. Link, Samus), but also just in general. Walking is usually my first option, but I get punished with projectiles. I also wait for an approach and then capitalize on mistakes, but it doesn't seem to be working as well as I would like it to. Any tips?

I merged your post into the Q&A thread.

*sigh* double post.

anyway, is it common knowledge that sideB autocancels at a very specific height? i saw this video today and at first i thought it was edited, but it looks legit -- sideB autocancels if you use it from a very specific height:

i've never seen this before. if there's practical applications, we should look into it. i'm thinking certain stages (smashville?!!) may have hidden potential.

Don't worry about the double post. If the second post is a day later, it's fine .

 

[BlueMenace]

Thanks man, maybe we could play some matches some time?

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

Thanks man, maybe we could play some matches some time?

With me? Sure, just pm me a time and stuff!

 

[inconspikuous]

*sigh* double post.

anyway, is it common knowledge that sideB autocancels at a very specific height? i saw this video today and at first i thought it was edited, but it looks legit -- sideB autocancels if you use it from a very specific height:

i've never seen this before. if there's practical applications, we should look into it. i'm thinking certain stages (smashville?!!) may have hidden potential.

UPDATE: i've done some labbing, and discovered it's not a 'true' autocancel. if you land on certain frames after using your sideB, you will have less recovery frames, but it's not instant to use a one-frame move like shield or jab1. so not as useful as i originally thought, and also not as practical, as you will generally have to use your second jump to activate the 'autocancel', which often means death for mac. still, good to know that you could potentially land safer out of sideB.

 

[inconspikuous]

hmm yeh i c. probs what you said.

power shield then turn around utilt/dtilt. or power shield then perfect pivot instant dtilt/utilt

its a good discussion point that youre bringing up. when opponents land right behind mac we don't really have great options.

I've labbed this out. Besides a JC-UpB-Reverse, the quickest option Mac can do OoS to cover behind him is a frame 9/10-ish jab (that is, 7 frames of shield drop lag, buffered 'one-frame' turn-around, and then jab).

As great as Mac's jab is, though, IMO the more promising options have to be performed with the C-Stick set to 'Tilt'. Reverse D-tilt OoS is Frame 12/13-ish (that is, 7 frames of shield drop lag, buffered 'one-frame' turn-around, and then C-stick down). The problem with not setting the C-Stick to Tilt is that reverse D-smash will come out as the 'D-tilt' gets buffered as 'Down and Attack' on the same input. Even if you perform it perfectly, theoretically, the quickest you would be able to do it would be one frame slower than setting the C-Stick to Tilt. (EDIT: unless you can actually tilt the control stick to perform D-tilts, in which case, you are much better at Smash than I am.)

Without using the 'one-frame' turn-around, Mac's best option is a buffered U-tilt OoS, which, at best will hit on Frame 14 (after 7 frames of shield drop lag, hitbox is active on Frame 13 but will start on the 'wrong' side of Mac), but will more likely hit between Frames 15-18-ish as those frames' hitboxes are on the 'right' side of Mac. If you're doing your math right, you're absolutely correct: that is a super slow 'punish' and you will likely get power-shielded even if performed perfectly.

EDIT: I forgot about reverse F-tilt OoS, which should send its first hitbox out on frame 11/12ish, assuming your execution is perfect with the buffering after shield drop.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Against sword types (Roy, Ike, Marth, etc.), what stages do you tend to avoid? Do you prefer FD or BF?

Also, what do you fear most from them in a match and what is Little Mac's move with the most endlag?

 

[Champ Gold]

Against sword types (Roy, Ike, Marth, etc.), what stages do you tend to avoid? Do you prefer FD or BF?

Also, what do you fear most from them in a match and what is Little Mac's move with the most endlag?

Well most swordfighters have some range against Mac and get easy gimps. (especially Marth, Ike and Link) But as you you keep your distance and pace yourself then it isn't a hard matchup to deal with.

Roy is probably easier to fight since he requires to be up close and personal and Mac's major advantage is punishing that.

As for moves with alot of lag. It's probably his specials. His normals have one the best frame data in the game next to Sheik (when he's on the ground).

F-Smash is probably the hardest move to punish against Mac since it's quick, powerful and can damage shield if you angle the move downward.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Well most swordfighters have some range against Mac and get easy gimps. (especially Marth, Ike and Link) But as you you keep your distance and pace yourself then it isn't a hard matchup to deal with.

Roy is probably easier to fight since he requires to be up close and personal and Mac's major advantage is punishing that.

As for moves with alot of lag. It's probably his specials. His normals have one the best frame data in the game next to Sheik (when he's on the ground).

F-Smash is probably the hardest move to punish against Mac since it's quick, powerful and can damage shield if you angle the move downward.

Little Mac has screwy range sometimes it seems. Like he's guarding himself with distance while his arms do the damage from afar. It's insane, even with a disjoint.

His specials are pretty damn good, but Side B seems very hard to punish. He can recoil off of it very quickly. His normals seem almost punishable unless just poorly spaced.

FSmash seems like a free move for the most part, but I can see DSmash and USmash being punishable, though not quite on shield, are they?

 

[Champ Gold]

Little Mac has screwy range sometimes it seems. Like he's guarding himself with distance while his arms do the damage from afar. It's insane, even with a disjoint.

His specials are pretty damn good, but Side B seems very hard to punish. He can recoil off of it very quickly. His normals seem almost punishable unless just poorly spaced.

FSmash seems like a free move for the most part, but I can see DSmash and USmash being punishable, though not quite on shield, are they?

Down Smash isn't easily punishable but it doesn't have the power Forward Smash has. The Specials are great but they are moves with alot of endlag

 

[Top Boss]

Hey, I was just wondering if I play little mac wrong. most macs i see tend to be aggressive and try to overwhelm the opponent, but i play him completely different. instead, i almost NEVER run, unless i need to go in for a quick punish. so i will constantly walk around one side of the stage, in order to force an approach. from there i will wall the enemy out and gain stage control. this leaves the opponent in a very awkward position, as it's so difficult to get in on mac at that time. so yeah, my mac is mainly about being patient, smart, and heavy on positioning/reads to win. does that seem wrong/ bad to any other mac players? any help is appreciated, since a friend of mine told me that i play mac in a very weird way.

 

[Laitome]

No you're playing him right, walling people out and playing slowly is an excellent way to play mac. The main difference is that you use positioning and patience not speed for punishes although I need to see your mac first to really say.

Also you double posted on accident it seems remember to delete the other one.