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Q&A Doc's Tips: A Little Mac Q&A Thread

Volt-Ikazuchi

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If you're really afraid of it all you have to do is avoid Little Mac for 6 seconds after he gets it. Any damage he takes after that will kill his K.O. punch.


I've been playing Little Mac for most of the weekend and he just seems one dimensional. I wanted to main him since his reveal but now I'm slowly not feeling it anymore. I find myself using dash attack like 80% of the time to rack up damage then try to finish with an Usmash or Fsmash. Is this how he should be played cuz it gets kind of boring for me?

I really want to main this character but right now he looks like he might move to a secondary
Little Mac needs to play patiently to rack up damage then suddenly snap and throw smashes all around. You can try to rushdown, but more often than not that's not going to help you. Use your jabs and tilts.

I guess. I'm waiting for the Wii U version, so I might be messin' up. From what I've seen though, the patient Macs get better results.
 

STiCKYBULL3TZ

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How good is Mac looking to be at this point?
Is the KO punch over powered?
Best and worst MUs you've encountered?
(I don't have the game yet)
Yesterday I created a post about how I'm starting not to like Little Mac. Today I feel completely different. I've changed up my playstyle to incorporate more Ftilts, Dsmash, and jabs. I've gotten way better results and feel like I'm playing a game and not just mindlessly running in. Little Mac is good but don't let his power trick you into thinking you can do whatever you want. You have to play him like you would in a Punch-Out!! game. Find openings and punish. He can pretty much walk up to characters with no fear and punch them in the face. His moves are all quick and his smashes come with super armor so you can power through attacks. Spacing, spacing, spacing!! That's super key for this guy. Good spacing with Ftilts cannot be beat. Safe on block. Lots of priority. Only counter moves beat it.

K.O. Punch is not overpowered. It's pretty hard to land if your opponent is being careful. It has a timer of about 6 seconds. After that, any damage you take will get rid of it. Dtilt -> K.O. is pretty reliable. I also like Grab -> pummels -> grab release -> K.O. If you're right next to your opponent you'll miss

I can't say which MU is best for me so far because I haven't played against a ton of characters to get a good idea. But I don't fear Link, Ness, or Greninja.
Worst MUs are definitely projectile heavy characters. They can stop your approach and put you in an even more defensive playstyle than you're already in. Robin is a really bad one for me.

tl;dr He's good. No. Idk. Robin
 

Volt-Ikazuchi

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Little Mac's worse matchups come from anyone who's grab happy. Super Armor don't work against grabs. And characters who got hits that can break the armor. (I don't know how much the armor can take.)
The main problem is grabbing though. Projectiles don't hinder you too much since you have Armor, Roll and Haymaker if close.

Ironically, one of the worst characters in the game is a major problem for Mac. Ganonderp. Flame Choke is nigh useless now, but it does take your momentum despite leaving you close to him.
 

UltraDavid

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Little Mac's worse matchups come from anyone who's grab happy. Super Armor don't work against grabs. And characters who got hits that can break the armor. (I don't know how much the armor can take.)
The main problem is grabbing though. Projectiles don't hinder you too much since you have Armor, Roll and Haymaker if close.

Ironically, one of the worst characters in the game is a major problem for Mac. Ganonderp. Flame Choke is nigh useless now, but it does take your momentum despite leaving you close to him.
I don't agree with this. Are you hanging out in grab range much? Or do you go in for up close dash a much? I'm mostly at about max f tilt range if I can help it. That way I can pressure with safe (or even plus on block?) f tilt, whiff punish with f tilt, ko punch, f smash, or dash grab without being at risk for getting grabbed or really even hit by most characters. Ganon side b is def useful v Mac considering how grounded he is, but a good Mac should be giving himself enough range to react to it coming.

I think so far the characters I'm worried about are ones that can fight really well off stage, whether by setting up projectiles there a la Villager or jumping off stage to kill me whenever I get launched.
 

Volt-Ikazuchi

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I don't agree with this. Are you hanging out in grab range much? Or do you go in for up close dash a much? I'm mostly at about max f tilt range if I can help it. That way I can pressure with safe (or even plus on block?) f tilt, whiff punish with f tilt, ko punch, f smash, or dash grab without being at risk for getting grabbed or really even hit by most characters. Ganon side b is def useful v Mac considering how grounded he is, but a good Mac should be giving himself enough range to react to it coming.

I think so far the characters I'm worried about are ones that can fight really well off stage, whether by setting up projectiles there a la Villager or jumping off stage to kill me whenever I get launched.
Actually, I'm just going off on theories here. I'm waiting for the Wii U version. Of course it's not like grabs are an impassable wall, but more offensive Macs tend to fall for it easily, so I pointed that out since some people forget about it.
And characters that can keep you in the air are obviously bad news. Even the trailer points that out.

You can use Slip Counter to punish people that attack you offstage though. It's good to keep that in mind since Mac travels a good distance if the counter activates, so you can use it to punish aggressive opponents.
 

Kempatsu

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I would agree that LM is susceptible to grabs. Most players will hang at the ledge and there isn't many options for LM to attack the opponent. ->+B is out of the question since you'll just go flying off the ledge without any recovery. You have few options and LMs grab range is limited. If he misses, opponents tend to grab right back since he's always *just* out of range but as a result, in range for a counter grab.

just a thought. feel free to add on.
 

Maestro_

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Wow there's not a lot of info on these LM boards... Thought there'd be a moveset analysis to get a quick answer. Anyway, I tried to Vision a KO Punch with Shulk. It didn't work. My question is is the KO Punch un-counterable?
 

LCC Son-in-Law

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Wow there's not a lot of info on these LM boards... Thought there'd be a moveset analysis to get a quick answer. Anyway, I tried to Vision a KO Punch with Shulk. It didn't work. My question is is the KO Punch un-counterable?
I agree, there really isn't much info up on LM here yet. NAKAT just posted a LM guide, and went over each of his moves, but It isn't really an "analysis" of his moves, just a simple guide. I would really love that to be done though.
I also have the same question as you, is it un-counterable?
 

GreenFlame

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I agree, there really isn't much info up on LM here yet. NAKAT just posted a LM guide, and went over each of his moves, but It isn't really an "analysis" of his moves, just a simple guide. I would really love that to be done though.
I also have the same question as you, is it un-counterable?
We need to get someone to run some tests on this. I think it probably is uncounterable since it's like a mini-Final Smash.
 

LCC Son-in-Law

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Ok so I just read a post by Ralph Cecil stating that it cannot be countered soooo.....guess that question is answered? Idk. I would like to have his KO punch tested more in general though. I would do it myself, but I'm fairly busy this week. Also, a testing thread would be incredible.
 
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GreenFlame

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Ok so I just read a post by Ralph Cecil stating that it cannot be countered soooo.....guess that question is answered? Idk. I would like to have his KO punch tested more in general though. I would do it myself, but I'm fairly busy this week. Also, a testing thread would be incredible.
Yeah, we need research threads for each character. That would be excellent, and I'd love to conribute to some of the Little Mac ones that don't need more than one player to test.

It seems unlikely that his K.O Punch would be counterable because then it would probably suck (it's hard enough to land already), so I guess it's safe to assume it is uncounterable. We still need to CONFIRM it though.

Would it be possible to get that research thread?
 

STiCKYBULL3TZ

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Because I need another person with a 3ds I cannot test at any time. I would love to contribute to some testing. I could probably get a friend to help me but not until Sunday at the earliest. But as far as I know, it can't be countered.

Also, without tons of data no one can probably answer this accurately but I'll ask anyway. Is Ftilt on shield -> Ftilt a frame trap? Seems like every time someone tries to react out of the blocked Ftilt they get hit with the second unless they roll.
 

Volt-Ikazuchi

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Wow there's not a lot of info on these LM boards... Thought there'd be a moveset analysis to get a quick answer. Anyway, I tried to Vision a KO Punch with Shulk. It didn't work. My question is is the KO Punch un-counterable?
K.O. Punch is probably uncounterable. It all depends on how counters work. Counters usually block the move then strike back.
Since K.O. Punch is unblockable it should break the parrying stage of the counter and hit.
Unless Input Delay kicked in and Vision didn't start in time. Or maybe Vision has start-up frames where it doesn't parry attacks.
Were you playing online?
 

GreenFlame

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K.O. Punch is probably uncounterable. It all depends on how counters work. Counters usually block the move then strike back.
Since K.O. Punch is unblockable it should break the parrying stage of the counter and hit.
Unless Input Delay kicked in and Vision didn't start in time. Or maybe Vision has start-up frames where it doesn't parry attacks.
Were you playing online?
I'll test this today with my friend on Local Wireless. Can somebody start that research thread? Or am I allowed to :D?

EDIT: I also have a question. What do you do when the opponent stands on the edge and refuses to approach? As we all know Mac hates edges, and Jolt Haymaker is easy to see coming and punishable and they're probably trying to bait it from you anyway to dodge it so you'll either go off the edge or you get punished and thrown off the edge anyway (then gimped to death).
 
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jviscake

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Question, is Slip Counter a good edgeguard move?

I mean, I know it's risky on some characters, but does it have enough knockback in the air to be considered a failr edgeguarding tool, without putting you in danger?
No, you'll throw yourself off and be put in a bad place (which is anywhere not on the stage)
 

Nat Goméz

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I'll test this today with my friend on Local Wireless. Can somebody start that research thread? Or am I allowed to :D?

EDIT: I also have a question. What do you do when the opponent stands on the edge and refuses to approach? As we all know Mac hates edges, and Jolt Haymaker is easy to see coming and punishable and they're probably trying to bait it from you anyway to dodge it so you'll either go off the edge or you get punished and thrown off the edge anyway (then gimped to death).
If they just stand on the edge waiting for you to approach and trying to shield grab you just walk slowly to them and in max distance start pressuring their shield with ftilt, Mac's ftilt is safe on block and it's really fast so when you start pressuring them they don't have other option to get out of there, receive Mac's ftilt or get their shield destroyed :D
 

jviscake

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I'll test this today with my friend on Local Wireless. Can somebody start that research thread? Or am I allowed to :D?

EDIT: I also have a question. What do you do when the opponent stands on the edge and refuses to approach? As we all know Mac hates edges, and Jolt Haymaker is easy to see coming and punishable and they're probably trying to bait it from you anyway to dodge it so you'll either go off the edge or you get punished and thrown off the edge anyway (then gimped to death).
I usually come in with a grab, if it connects I send them back to the middle, if I get grabbed, a slip counter saves me from being thrown far off and recovering while sending them back to the middle
 

Volt-Ikazuchi

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If they just stand on the edge waiting for you to approach and trying to shield grab you just walk slowly to them and in max distance start pressuring their shield with ftilt, Mac's ftilt is safe on block and it's really fast so when you start pressuring them they don't have other option to get out of there, receive Mac's ftilt or get their shield destroyed :D
Just like the Terminator. Cool, but what if people start throwing projectiles?
 

GreenFlame

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Hey, so I tested Little Mac's K.O Punch today. I can in fact confirm it is uncounterable and unshieldable. I tested this with my friend using two Macs, when you try to slip counter a K.O Punch he will do the counter animation but then get hit anyway. I'm pretty sure we already knew it was unshieldable, but I tested it and it breaks through the shield.

Anyway, now we know that. I think I'll make the research thread soon if any of these sort of questions pop up or if I think of something that needs to be looked into about Little Mac.
 

LCC Son-in-Law

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Hey, so I tested Little Mac's K.O Punch today. I can in fact confirm it is uncounterable and unshieldable. I tested this with my friend using two Macs, when you try to slip counter a K.O Punch he will do the counter animation but then get hit anyway. I'm pretty sure we already knew it was unshieldable, but I tested it and it breaks through the shield.

Anyway, now we know that. I think I'll make the research thread soon if any of these sort of questions pop up or if I think of something that needs to be looked into about Little Mac.
Sweet! That would be awesome if you do. I can try to contribute to the research thread/help test anything out, but it would probably have to be after this coming Sunday. I've got a tourney to practice for =/. Still, I would love to be in on this if we have a research thread!
 

Nat Goméz

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Just like the Terminator. Cool, but what if people start throwing projectiles?
Yeah, just like that xD With Little Mac you can cancel most of the weak spamable projectiles with his jab or ftilt, i just did a thread of on how many of them it works. This is the link if you want.

http://smashboards.com/threads/proj...anceled-with-little-macs-jab-or-ftilt.372183/

If the projectile can't nullified you still have the option to get closer and shield whenever he throws a projectile and ftilt or any attack when you are in range.
 

Volt-Ikazuchi

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Yeah, just like that xD With Little Mac you can cancel most of the weak spamable projectiles with his jab or ftilt, i just did a thread of on how many of them it works. This is the link if you want.

http://smashboards.com/threads/proj...anceled-with-little-macs-jab-or-ftilt.372183/

If the projectile can't nullified you still have the option to get closer and shield whenever he throws a projectile and ftilt or any attack when you are in range.
Wait, F-Tilt Nullifies projectiles? As in, the tilt hits and then they disappear without dealing any damage? That's great news!
 
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Nat Goméz

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I know! And it also works in others like Villager's Lloyd Rocket, DeDeDe's Gordo throws, and Bowser's Jr Koopa Cannon, see the thread! They're all there ^.^

Well, i still need to test some other projectiles but when i get home i will :)

But well do this in your matches! And bring even More frustration to the campy characters in online >:D
 

Little Pac

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How do you guys approach Dedede? His gordo's are tough to get past and I just can't punish his safer moves.
 

Ralph Cecil

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Snap :o I've been missing a lot hear lol. Also you can jab, ftilt and side-b(worst of the 3 options) his gordos to send them back to him.
 

Oilpath99

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How good is Mac looking to be at this point?
High to Mid tier? Looking pretty good, definitely the funnest character to use in the game.
Is the KO punch over powered?
A little, it ignores shields and counters and is pretty easy to land imo.
Best and worst MUs you've encountered?
Best: Ike? Worst: Robin?
(I don't have the game yet)
Responses in bold.
 

GreenFlame

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Responses in bold.
I'm not sure that Robin is really the worst matchup for Mac. Once you're in close Robin may have that sword, but Mac's jab can easily rack up damage. Alternatively, once you're up close you can f-tilt the Robin away, then use Mac's super-fast dash to get over to Robin and follow up with a Dash attack if it's safe, or roll and do a jab. I've beaten a few Robins.

Many think Little Mac has mega trouble with characters with good projectiles, but it's not as bad as it seems because of how fast his dash, rolls and attacks are. He can still keep a lot of pressure on them as well.
 
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LCC Son-in-Law

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I've had quite a few matches against my brothers Robin, and our matches go back and forth. According to him, other Robins say they have a hard time against Little Mac, just like most Little Macs seem to say they have a hard time against Robin. I think the match-up may be pretty evenly matched, depending on the play-styles of both the Robin and Little Mac. My brother plays a very mixed Robin, going from Defensive at times to being full on aggressive. He uses Archthunder a bit since it's difficult to roll past and runs in for a grab at the end of the stun. One of the best options I've found to dealing with this is simply to shield the Archthunder and roll back before it ends. Also, it's really risky, but one thing I've done is used my side B to go over Arcfire on the ground and catch the Robin off guard, but like I said, it's risky. I probably shouldn't even do it haha. But yeah, just figured a post a bit that I've gathered from playing the match-up. I may post more later on it.

Also, Dedede is my Little Mac's bane x.x Like Little Pac above, I would also like some more tips on approaching or fighting Dedede in general.
 
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GreenFlame

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I've had quite a few matches against my brothers Robin, and our matches go back and forth. According to him, other Robins say they have a hard time against Little Mac, just like most Little Macs seem to say they have a hard time against Robin. I think the match-up may be pretty evenly matched, depending on the play-styles of both the Robin and Little Mac. My brother plays a very mixed Robin, going from Defensive at times to being full on aggressive. He uses Archthunder a bit since it's difficult to roll past and runs in for a grab at the end of the stun. One of the best options I've found to dealing with this is simply to shield the Archthunder and roll back before it ends. Also, it's really risky, but one thing I've done is used my side B to go over Arcfire on the ground and catch the Robin off guard, but like I said, it's risky. I probably shouldn't even do it haha. But yeah, just figured a post a bit that I've gathered from playing the match-up. I may post more later on it.
Also, Dedede is my Little Mac's bane x.x
i think that thing about jumping over the Arcfire is actually good if the Robin's at close range and the Robin is charging an Arcthunder. Just don't do it near the edge and make sure you're going to hit, otherwise you're extremely easy to punish.
 

LCC Son-in-Law

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OH! Idk how many people know this, but you can also dash underneath Thunder and Thoron, and I believe Elthunder but I may be wrong about that one. I know for a fact you cannot dash under Arcthunder though. This knowledge has helped me a lot in my matches.
If the robin Jabs into wind instead of fire, it can be difficult to get close at times. If you can bait it out though, I personally find it typically leaves the robin open, giving you so many options.
 
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jviscake

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Marth is actually a lot tougher than I thought considering his counter got a huge buff, but he's manageable. ZSS is a match-up that hurts. Some things I've noticed: For Little Mac's Side-B, obviously you never approach with it on the ledge but as a follow-up option, it works and the knockback is really good. Neutral B without KO is as useless as it seems, but because it catches Mac on ledge you can hit some pretty funny edgeguards.
 

ndayday

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How do you guys approach Dedede? His gordo's are tough to get past and I just can't punish his safer moves.
I only played one match against a good Dedede. If they're not safe they'll get in the air so getting them with upb or predicting what they'll do on land is pretty much your punish. Ftilt won't work a lot of the time if they are spacing right since they'll inhale. But really atm I think it is not a fun matchup for Mac.
 

KuroganeHammer

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for the people asking about KO punch, it's uncounterable because it's unshieldable

also dedede is broken, l0l
 

STiCKYBULL3TZ

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I have yet to fight a Dedede. But the thought of him using Inhale every time I try to approach is pretty daunting
 

Highwayman300

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Anyone knows how does Mac's armor works?
How many frames of it does he has during each smash and how much damage can it take?
Does it varies for each smash or each s-smash variation?

It's hard to test online since countering moves with smash attacks is harder due to input lag.
 
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