Doc vs. Mario

[4 Aces]

I get that Doc is better than Mario, but why is he better? Other than pills being jumpy and fair not being a ******** meteor attack?

Yeah, it's a stupid question especially this late in Smash's lifetime, but I never really knew the details behind it.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

Doc's pills are better. Hands down. More hit stun, better angle, yada yada.
Doc is heavier than Mario, which makes him faster in the air, thus more mobile all around
and DON'T TALK **** ABOUT MARIO'S FAIR
HE'LL SHOVE THAT OVERSIZED FIST UP YOUR POOPER

 

[Strong Badam]

this thread has been done way too many times. strictly speaking they're about even, however Doc does better against all of the characters who matter except Sheik and MAYBE Ganondorf.

 

[4 Aces]

Thanks everyone.

Doc's pills are better. Hands down. More hit stun, better angle, yada yada.
Doc is heavier than Mario, which makes him faster in the air, thus more mobile all around
and DON'T TALK **** ABOUT MARIO'S FAIR
HE'LL SHOVE THAT OVERSIZED FIST UP YOUR POOPER

So...is that a serious threat response? About the fair I mean?

this thread has been done way too many times. strictly speaking they're about even, however Doc does better against all of the characters who matter except Sheik and MAYBE Ganondorf.

Sorry for the repeats. The other day I sat and realized that I never actually knew why Doc was higher. Looking at the tier list they're in the same tier (always thought that Doc was much higher, like back when there was ~7 tiers).

Why is that though (match-up)? Is it because of everything that has already been said or is there more to it?

 

[M@1funk$hun]

nah not really serious about the fair. Doc's has more utility, I'm just saying Mario's has its strong points too.
but this thread isn't about fair it's about Doc vs Mario
and I agree with strongbad. it's basically all been said before

 

[TheShuckler]

You just said why.

 

[Kuraudo]

and DON'T TALK **** ABOUT MARIO'S FAIR
HE'LL SHOVE THAT OVERSIZED FIST UP YOUR POOPER

I just lost to this. Seriously. LOL

Just sounds so funny in my head.

 

[Kyu Puff]

this thread has been done way too many times. strictly speaking they're about even, however Doc does better against all of the characters who matter except Sheik and MAYBE Ganondorf.

What makes Doc better against Fox/Falco/Peach/Samus?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Better gimping vs fox falco samus

Better KO setup vs peach and better pills and better gimping

 

[Kyu Puff]

Mario's u-air has more range and gives him a good way to lead into d-smash/u-tilt vs Fox and Falco. I can see why Doc's b-air and cape are important, but it seems like Mario's b-air would be good enough to edgeguard spacies (at least, it's significantly better against them than it is against Falcon).

Mario's aerials are all safer against ccing and shielding than Doc's, so he might have an easier time approaching Peach and Samus, but I guess I don't know much about these match-ups for Doc. Mario does take his time killing Peach, but builds up damage on her pretty quickly anyways.

 

[Strong Badam]

Mario's bair sends at an angle of ~45 degrees, while Doc's sends at an angle of 28 degrees. I needn't explain why Doc's is infinitely better as far as edgeguarding goes.

Mario lacks killing moves. His down-b, dair, dtilt, and nair are about the only moves in his repertoire that are better than Doc's, although his fsmash has much better range and is actually usable outside of dthrow with bad DI -> fsmash.

Doc's pills make him much better than Mario against Peach, Samus, and Jigglypuff. Doc's bair and fair are why he's better in the Fox and Falco match-ups.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Mario's bair sends at an angle of ~45 degrees, while Doc's sends at an angle of 28 degrees. I needn't explain why Doc's is infinitely better as far as edgeguarding goes.

I can see why Doc's b-air and cape are important, but it seems like Mario's b-air would be good enough to edgeguard spacies

I know Doc's b-air sends at a more useful trajectory, but Falco and Fox are two of the lightest characters in the game. I was saying I can't see it making a significant difference in this match-up if neither character has trouble edgeguarding in the first place.

Mario lacks killing moves. His down-b, dair, dtilt, and nair are about the only moves in his repertoire that are better than Doc's, although his fsmash has much better range and is actually usable outside of dthrow with bad DI -> fsmash.

Mario's u-air has more range and is a few frames safer on shield, his u-tilt is infinitely better, his b-air, while worse for edgeguarding, is also safer on shield, and his f-air is better against cc. What was the point of this list again?

Doc's bair and fair are why he's better in the Fox and Falco match-ups.

Why f-air? What makes it a better finisher than d-throw -> d-smash/f-smash?

 

[Strong Badam]

mario definitely does have trouble edgeguarding fox and falco. he can bair them twice and they can still recover if they DI'd well. two off-stage bairs from doc? later.
his cape is also worse as far as vertical coverage goes.

i forgot about utilt. i agree with that. i don't agree on any of the rest.... fair shouldn't be used against ccing opponents w/ doc anyway. uair/bair being safer on shield doesn't matter because if you space right you won't get shield grabbed.

you can't combo dthrow -> dsmash or fsmash against anyone other than Fox, Falco, and Falcon at killing %.
do keep in mind that Doc's dsmash is also stronger than Mario's

 

[Kyu Puff]

How can you not agree with the rest? You can't really agree or disagree with facts lol... As for f-air against cc, maybe Doc doesn't use it because his f-air can be cc'd, but it's definitely useful for Mario whose cc'd f-air leads into grab/u-tilt/d-smash.

Mario's late n-air/b-air/u-air all have a -1 frame disadvantage, Doc's late n-air/b-air/u-air have -3 and -4 frame disadvantages. If you can space around shieldgrab with Doc's u-air every single time, good for you, but Mario's aerials are still better on shield and he has more ways to follow them up safely. Shieldgrab also isn't the only option oos.

you can't combo dthrow -> dsmash or fsmash against anyone other than Fox, Falco, and Falcon at killing %.
do keep in mind that Doc's dsmash is also stronger than Mario's

I was responding to the part of your post that said "f-air is why he's better against Fox and Falco"... And the couple of extra % on Doc's d-smash is marginal. My point was that Mario's grab game on spacies is essentially the same.

 

[4 Aces]

So it's mostly trajectory and power? Is there a list of all the differences? Also, why is Mario's utilt better?

 

[M@1funk$hun]

So it's mostly trajectory and power? Is there a list of all the differences? Also, why is Mario's utilt better?

Mario's utilt has more priority (I THINK) and sends the opponent at a more upward angle. so it makes it better for comboing

 

[XAQ]

fox and falco are only moderately light

 

[Kyu Puff]

Fox is the 5th lightest character in the game, followed by Kirby. He's pretty light.

 

[VGmasta]

And yet ANOTHER "Why is Doc better than Mario thread?", lol.
Doc's f-air and the pills are the main reason I picked up Doc and dropped Mario. Doc has such a better projectile on stage. Mario's fireball is a bit faster than Doc's pill and it travels a bit further too. But that doesn't make it that big of a difference ON STAGE since the fireballs don't bounce very high no matter how high you throw them from. So Mario's projectile is a lot easier to get around in my opinion. Plus Doc's projectile has a 33% increase in damage given from Mario's projectile.

I only favor the fireballs over Doc's pill if I'm trying to float back down and towards the stage after being knocked away. The fireballs can disrupt an opponent's edgeguard quicker than the pills because of the better traveling distance and speed of the fireball.

I'm not saying Doc's BETTER than Mario. But Doc's the better character for ME. And I could say exactly why Doc's better for me, but it'd be such a long list that I've kinda quoted in the past so many times already. "Doc has this and Doc has that while Mario lacks this and that... blah, blah, blah". I'll post more about it I guess, depending on how hot or stale this thread becomes.

 

[ranmaru]

Easier to kill things with Fair as doc than mario.

We aren't looking to combo, we are looking to finish the job quickly.

He has pills.

Sure he can't combo as good as Mario, but we aren't looking for safety.

 

[j3ly]

im not going to get involved.

mario will take you further though.


ps if anybody sees this in the next 10 minutes tell me how to do the upB glitch please. practising my jiggly matchup


and it is imo that mario has better matchups against fox falco and falcon.
bair is ok for gimping with mario and good with doc. bair at mario's angle is important for comboinghowever, and doc totally looses this.

mario has much better recovery. even docs recovery is good with good DI though. but he cant pressure an edgehogging opponent from that many recovery angles, as well as no cape lift, so bye bye doc.

no insanely fast and safe wall of flaming firey destruction? later doc.

 

[otg]

J3ly you are ********. I would go into detail about how dumb you are, but from what Tuna's told me about you after playing with you last spring, it would just be a waste of time.

 

[j3ly]

ur a compulsive flamer and by the sounds of it a massive douche irl.

 

[otg]

nah son,

I run ****.

 

[Winston]

Why f-air? What makes it a better finisher than d-throw -> d-smash/f-smash?

In my experience it's extremely difficult to react to the DI properly until higher percents. Are you saying you can consistently react to all 3 DI options and most percents?

 

[4 Aces]

And yet ANOTHER "Why is Doc better than Mario thread?", lol.
Doc's f-air and the pills are the main reason I picked up Doc and dropped Mario. Doc has such a better projectile on stage. Mario's fireball is a bit faster than Doc's pill and it travels a bit further too. But that doesn't make it that big of a difference ON STAGE since the fireballs don't bounce very high no matter how high you throw them from. So Mario's projectile is a lot easier to get around in my opinion. Plus Doc's projectile has a 33% increase in damage given from Mario's projectile.

I only favor the fireballs over Doc's pill if I'm trying to float back down and towards the stage after being knocked away. The fireballs can disrupt an opponent's edgeguard quicker than the pills because of the better traveling distance and speed of the fireball.

I'm not saying Doc's BETTER than Mario. But Doc's the better character for ME. And I could say exactly why Doc's better for me, but it'd be such a long list that I've kinda quoted in the past so many times already. "Doc has this and Doc has that while Mario lacks this and that... blah, blah, blah". I'll post more about it I guess, depending on how hot or stale this thread becomes.

By all means, please get more in-depth. I'm intrigued.

Seems like it's just a trade-off of traits more than anything. I used to assume that Doc was MUCH higher on the tier list than Mario, but now that I looked at the tier list again, they seem rather close (I think...can't remember).

 

[ranmaru]

im not going to get involved.

mario will take you further though.


ps if anybody sees this in the next 10 minutes tell me how to do the upB glitch please. practising my jiggly matchup


and it is imo that mario has better matchups against fox falco and falcon.
bair is ok for gimping with mario and good with doc. bair at mario's angle is important for comboinghowever, and doc totally looses this.

mario has much better recovery. even docs recovery is good with good DI though. but he cant pressure an edgehogging opponent from that many recovery angles, as well as no cape lift, so bye bye doc.

no insanely fast and safe wall of flaming firey destruction? later doc.

"I'm not getting involved"

*he gets involved*

Fire is for wimps.

and NO, no upb cancel for you. Learn it on your own. go to the doc boards and search it yourself. It's been said A JILLION TIMES.

You don't need upb cancel for jiggs. Just pills and grab (dthrow) and fair. Add more moves for spice. (and NOT GETTING HIT needs to be in your mind when playing jiggs)

doc's recovery is not good.

Mario's recovery can be slightly better than doc, but not that good anyways. Plus, his cape is YELLOW. **** that.

But yeah, I like doc's fair better. I like moves with knockback.

Mario is viable, just not for me.

 

[MarioMariox2]

BTW j3ly, up-B to walljump can only be done if you execute your up-b when touching the wall. Either that or the timing window become notoriously small if you aren't touching the stage 1st.

Ok, as it has been said by the Smash trophies and previous threads, "It's a matter of personal taste."

Mario = Better recovery, Comboability
Doc = Better edgeguards, KO power

/generalization

 

[ranmaru]

Yeah... so as doc, we just simply have to evade alot and not get hit (like jiggs does, she dies easily from KO's) and edge guard like a pimp.

It's like... we are a lower tier version of jiggs. Cept that we get killed by edge guard more than upwards.

and we don't... well our bair is good. : ] I guess jiggs bair is better, but we got pills!

oh yeah she floats. and she has rest xD

but we have a cape.... ;-;


and with Mario, you BETTER FOLLOW UP WITH YOUR DOCTOR.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

BTW j3ly, up-B to walljump can only be done if you execute your up-b when touching the wall. Either that or the timing window become notoriously small if you aren't touching the stage 1st.

I think j3ly meant to ask about Doc's upb cancel
which is press the opposite direction of your upb within the first 3(?) frames
if it's not 3 frames, it's smaller

 

[MarioMariox2]

I think j3ly meant to ask about Doc's upb cancel
which is press the opposite direction of your upb within the first 3(?) frames
if it's not 3 frames, it's smaller

Oh the ground Up-B that doesn't make you jump? I never mastered that D:

 

[ranmaru]

Oh the ground Up-B that doesn't make you jump? I never mastered that D:

You could. : D It's easy.

 

[MarioMariox2]

You could. : D It's easy.

The timing is a bit rough though. Any tips?

 

[ranmaru]

When you press reverse, press the oppisite and downward... as fast as a smash attack, or faster. Try it like that : D. Just keep trying. It took me a WHOLE weekend to perfect it.

 

[MarioMariox2]

I did it! Apparentlly, like Mario's Up-B Cancel Recovery, Doc's Grounded Up-B must be connecting to an object (in this case, the opponent) at startup.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

I did it! Apparentlly, like Mario's Up-B Cancel Recovery, Doc's Grounded Up-B must be connecting to an object (in this case, the opponent) at startup.

srsly? didn't know that

 

[ranmaru]

srsly? didn't know that

Yeah, try doing it on a platform haha.

 

[Delaro]

Better gimping vs fox falco samus

Better KO setup vs peach and better pills and better gimping

I'm sorry but the Doc vs Peach matchup is a real JOKE any good peach player can take advantage from the matchup and kick the poor *** of Doc!

 

[username12345678]

I'm sorry but the Doc vs Peach matchup is a real JOKE any good peach player can take advantage from the matchup and kick the poor *** of Doc!

aye

calm that down.


KirbyKaze plays a

good character

 

[4 Aces]

What's the difference between Mario's and Doc's recoveries? I believe that Doc's rising upB doesn't carry him as high, and his cape/sheet doesn't help him recover (my friend always argues that it does though, so Idk).

And Mario's fireball rate is slightly higher/travels farther? That's all I can think of though.