Doc vs. Mario

[SmashMac]

What's the difference between Mario's and Doc's recoveries? I believe that Doc's rising upB doesn't carry him as high, and his cape/sheet doesn't help him recover (my friend always argues that it does though, so Idk).

And Mario's fireball rate is slightly higher/travels farther? That's all I can think of though.

Doc's cape helps him recover once, horizontally. Doc also has magnetic-hands, so his up+B not taking him as high is not necessarily a problem since his sweet-spot range is bigger than Mario's. Mario can up+B, wall-jump and up+B again though.

 

[Strong Badam]

His Sheet does help him recover. It's abysmally small though. Overall Mario's recovery is better, but Doc's on-stage game is better.


Doc is better in tournament.

 

[A2ZOMG]

His Sheet does help him recover. It's abysmally small though. Overall Mario's recovery is better, but Doc's on-stage game is better.


Doc is better in tournament.

Only because he's better against Fox and Jiggs. =P

To be specific, Doc is better against Fox, Jiggs, Ganon, and Samus. Mario is better against Sheik, Marth, Peach, ICs, and more random low tier characters that don't matter. They both get their ***es whooped by Falco though.

 

[Delaro]

Only because he's better against Fox and Jiggs. =P

To be specific, Doc is better against Fox, Jiggs, Ganon, and Samus. Mario is better against Sheik, Marth, Peach, ICs, and more random low tier characters that don't matter. They both get their ***es whooped by Falco though.

Stop saying stupid things T_T 1. any good player know that Mario's matchup against peach, marth, ICs and A LOT of other low tier is hard and he doesn't have the advantage , but matchup is not all that counts! A good player can win a 20:80 matchup and believe me, good ICs would give Mario a helluva good lesson and 2. falco is a high tier but definetly a EASY matchup for anyone who know how to fight him, especially for a good Mario player !

 

[Walt]

Falco isn't an easy match for anyone in the game. Saying otherwise is actually ********.

Sometimes I feel like Doc's recovery is better than Mario's because it always seemed like to me that Doc's up-B goes a little higher cause of magna-hands and Mario's goes more horizontal from double cape and he seems to grab from farther out with up-B. And hugging the edge is more beneficial since it increases the chance to edgetech. But this is just what it seems like to me, I have no data to back this up.

 

[VGmasta]

Realistically, there aren't necessarily any EASY match ups for Doc.

But Falco's definitely one of the tougher matchups since his offense and defense both prove to be amazing vs the entire cast (let alone Doc or Mario).

 

[Max?]

I like fighting Falco as Doc, but no one cares what I think.

 

[MarioMariox2]

What's the difference between Mario's and Doc's recoveries? I believe that Doc's rising upB doesn't carry him as high, and his cape/sheet doesn't help him recover (my friend always argues that it does though, so Idk).

And Mario's fireball rate is slightly higher/travels farther? That's all I can think of though.

Mario's Up-B seems to travel naturally farther with a shorter sweetspot while Doc has more of that "magnetic" effect to his Up-B.(?)

Mario's cape generates lift for the 1st time you use it in midair (until you land) whereas Doc's only stops momentum.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Stop saying stupid things T_T 1. any good player know that Mario's matchup against peach, marth, ICs and A LOT of other low tier is hard and he doesn't have the advantage , but matchup is not all that counts! A good player can win a 20:80 matchup and believe me, good ICs would give Mario a helluva good lesson and 2. falco is a high tier but definetly a EASY matchup for anyone who know how to fight him, especially for a good Mario player !

wtf you talking about? Peach and Marth are like 6/4 their favor at worst. Actually vs Marth I want to argue is like 55/45 his favor. Matchup is actually not horrible at all for Mario, not even super terrible for Doc either, though Mario does better in it. All Mario needs to do to win against Marth is always angle shield correctly, DI well, and last long enough until there is an opportunity to invinci**** Marth offstage. Crouch -> F-smash beats like 90% of Marth's air approaches so Marth shouldn't jump against Mario. D-tilt is the only really hard thing to work around.

Mario CRUSHES the ICs, just nobody camps enough in this matchup. Like he hard counters them like 65/35 or something. The only reason they even remotely stand a chance of winning is because of spotdodge. Without it it would be an unwinnable matchup for the ICs. Boss sucks at this matchup period. If he just B-throwed more and spaced F-smash as Mario, he'd be bodying Chudat.

idk the only low tier matchup that I think Mario really dislikes is G&W (about evenish). The rest of them, they get bodied since he camps better and has stupid chaingrab stuff on most of them and his B-air edgeguarding is plenty gay enough.

Falco bodies both Mario and Doc if he never does anything risky. Granted he takes a while to kill since his combos into kill moves aren't very practical, but he's the hardest character in the game for either Doc or Mario to approach.

Realistically, there aren't necessarily any EASY match ups for Doc.

But Falco's definitely one of the tougher matchups since his offense and defense both prove to be amazing vs the entire cast (let alone Doc or Mario).

Ganon is almost easy for Doc.

Almost. Except Doc technically loses slightly. Just Doc doesn't have to work hard to win while the Ganon user basically has to work his butt off to make sure he doesn't get punished. Doc basically can win the match off a single grab to an edgeguard that Ganon has a lot of trouble avoiding, while Ganon on the other hand usually has to actually land more than one aerial to kill Doc, which is difficult if the Doc turtles effectively (worse if the Doc powershields well).

 

[VGmasta]

Ganon is almost easy for Doc.

Ganon is almost easy for Doc?!!? Who's Ganon have you been playin' against? Zelda's not a pushover. Ganon's definitely good. RockCrock and Linguini have definitely proven that, for sure.

EDIT:

I like fighting Falco as Doc, but no one cares what I think.

Falco is actually a fun match up for me along with Ganon. But I wouldn't say they're easy matchups like some people are suggesting.

Actually vs Marth I want to argue is like 55/45 his favor. Matchup is actually not horrible at all for Mario, not even super terrible for Doc either, though Mario does better in it. All Mario needs to do to win against Marth is always angle shield correctly, DI well, and last long enough until there is an opportunity to invinci**** Marth offstage. Crouch -> F-smash beats like 90% of Marth's air approaches so Marth shouldn't jump against Mario. D-tilt is the only really hard thing to work around.

I don't know how difficult it is for Mario to fight Marth. But I can't sit here and troll about Marth being 55/45 or anything close to that for Doc. I mean what about Marth's:
amazing attack speed (f-air that hits at frame 4)
ridiculous attack range and combos
easy edgeguarding
outrageous grab range

I don't see where this match up is 55/45 for Marth v Doc unless we're talkin' about Marths that don't play the matchup gay enough.

Btw, solution to Marth's d-tilt as Doc = SH - f-air. (Should work/**** for Mario since his f-air combos into stuff)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon is almost easy for Doc?!!? Who's Ganon have you been playin' against? Zelda's not a pushover. Ganon's definitely good. RockCrock and Linguini have definitely proven that, for sure.

There's a huge difference between "easy" and "almost easy". If I said "easy", I would have implied Doc actually had the advantage, but he doesn't. He just merely doesn't have to work as hard since he gets massive reward for simple edgeguards. Like aside from the fact Ganon clearly has better control, Doc can basically win the game off a grab and then a B-air edgeguard. I don't think that takes much work, it just simply requires the Ganon to not be playing perfectly. Maybe the only matchup in the game that takes less work for Doc might be someone like Roy, cuz his aerials suck and he's even easier to gimp than Ganon.

I don't know how difficult it is for Mario to fight Marth. But I can't sit here and troll about Marth being 55/45 or anything close to that for Doc. I mean what about Marth's:
amazing attack speed (f-air that hits at frame 4)
ridiculous attack range and combos
easy edgeguarding
outrageous grab range

Crouching > Marth's air game. Especially if you're Mario, since it's not unreasonably hard to whiff punish Marth with F-smash. Then there's crouch canceling, Dash -> crouch -> D-smash which both Mario and Doc can get a lot of mileage out of, Marth jumping is usually a bad idea for him simply because crouching is so good against his air game.

Marth combos are kinda gay, but he should never really kill you for doing any combos. Just always DI away from him when he throws you or when he jumps (mind the N-air). His edgeguarding is also pretty gay, but as long as you DI well and leave the option open to recover high he rarely should outright gimp you.

Outrageous grab range is also gay, but he's rarely going to kill you off a grab. Shielding against Marth is mostly really good for that reason. Marth's BEST threat against shield is actually D-tilt, which wears down your shield while keeping you in a bad position where all of your escape options can be punished.

IBtw, solution to Marth's d-tilt as Doc = SH - f-air. (Should work/**** for Mario since his f-air combos into stuff)

Soooorta...just the problem with that is everything else Marth does beats Mario/Doc's F-air. Shielding and crouching is good against most of Marth's stuff, but D-tilt throws a wrench in that strategy. You can't really whiff punish his D-tilt on the ground if he isn't hugely predictable with it, which forces you to jump more which is where Marth wants you to be (fireballs and pills keep him from being too braindead though).

Either way Marth isn't actually that hard. Getting in on him is definitely a chore, and his D-tilt is a stupid good move that neither Doc or Mario have a real answer for, but you mostly should survive super long against him with good DI, while gimping him is almost unfairly easy just given how good Mario and Doc's B-airs are. Marth is so easy to gimp he's a character you actually want to use your side throws on to guarantee that he's sent offstage. Mario I'd say does slightly better since his low percent combos are easier to do and since his F-smash gives him a noticeable edge in limiting Marth's air game, while he doesn't really lose the gimp game since Marth is basically done if you tap him once offstage.

 

[VGmasta]

Crouching > Marth's air game. Especially if you're Mario, since it's not unreasonably hard to whiff punish Marth with F-smash. Then there's crouch canceling, Dash -> crouch -> D-smash which both Mario and Doc can get a lot of mileage out of, Marth jumping is usually a bad idea for him simply because crouching is so good against his air game.

Marth combos are kinda gay, but he should never really kill you for doing any combos. Just always DI away from him when he throws you or when he jumps (mind the N-air). His edgeguarding is also pretty gay, but as long as you DI well and leave the option open to recover high he rarely should outright gimp you.

Outrageous grab range is also gay, but he's rarely going to kill you off a grab. Shielding against Marth is mostly really good for that reason. Marth's BEST threat against shield is actually D-tilt, which wears down your shield while keeping you in a bad position where all of your escape options can be punished.

Soooorta...just the problem with that is everything else Marth does beats Mario/Doc's F-air. Shielding and crouching is good against most of Marth's stuff, but D-tilt throws a wrench in that strategy. You can't really whiff punish his D-tilt on the ground if he isn't hugely predictable with it, which forces you to jump more which is where Marth wants you to be (fireballs and pills keep him from being too braindead though).

Either way Marth isn't actually that hard. Getting in on him is definitely a chore, and his D-tilt is a stupid good move that neither Doc or Mario have a real answer for, but you mostly should survive super long against him with good DI, while gimping him is almost unfairly easy just given how good Mario and Doc's B-airs are. Marth is so easy to gimp he's a character you actually want to use your side throws on to guarantee that he's sent offstage. Mario I'd say does slightly better since his low percent combos are easier to do and since his F-smash gives him a noticeable edge in limiting Marth's air game, while he doesn't really lose the gimp game since Marth is basically done if you tap him once offstage.

Yeah I understand that Marth's d-tilt is a ridiculous tool. Doc's SH-fair is only a counter against it. But it doesn't mean you SH-fair everytime to see a Marth d-tilt. You just have to make reads. But the fact that Marth has that much control on Doc's actions make that matchup ridiculous.

As Doc, we're the ones who have to DI away from f-throw. We're the ones who have to DI away from f-air combos. We're the ones that can barely defend ourselves from above a Marth who sits there and uptilts and up-airs the whole time we're helplessly floating in the air. And we're the ones with sorry-@ss grab range, when Marth has the best grab in the game.

The matchup is doable, but you'd have to be substantially better than the Marth player. The matchup sucks.

Maybe the only matchup in the game that takes less work for Doc might be someone like Roy, cuz his aerials suck and he's even easier to gimp than Ganon.

You'd think Roy was easier. But I'd vote Bowser to be Doc's easiest matchup.
I think a lot of people underestimate Roy's speed and attack range. Roy has Marth's grab range. And Roy is definitely a little harder to edgeguard/gimp than Ganondorf.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't agree that you have to be substantially better than the Marth player to win against him. You can't be playing like a scrub in that matchup though since the matchup requires technical skill, but honestly, winning against Marth is as simple as throwing him offstage and B-airing him. He's not unapproachable, and if you're careful, he rarely is going to kill you super early.

Oh right. Bowser is terrible and easy to play against. And I guess he isn't hard for Doc to gimp. The only slight gay thing about Bowser is his weight is both good and terrible for comboing him. Mainly awkward when grabbing him since you recover very slowly from D-throw.

what do you mean Roy is harder to edgeguard and gimp than Ganon? Half the time he doesn't even have the option of recovering high. His aerials usually aren't as good for defending himself. And he gets invinci****ed by ledgedrop B-air no matter what he does, while Ganon can be cheeky and try to recover high.

 

[MarioMariox2]

As always with Marth, it's really only the tippers that you should be wary of when using floatys.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

You kind of have to trick Marth into doing the wrong move to get close to him to attack. I feel like you have to know a lot more of the Doc vs Marth match up than the Marth player your fighting does...If that makes any sense. But I mean vs Marth just get him off of the stage and b.air him once and he is pretty much dead. Stay away from going above him and wavedashing/ doing stupid doc **** in front of his face or you will get f.smashed.

Also Doc is better than Mario because Doc actually went to school and did something with his life not like Mario who sits on his butt all day fixing peoples toilets for a living.

 

[VGmasta]

You kind of have to trick Marth into doing the wrong move to get close to him to attack. I feel like you have to know a lot more of the Doc vs Marth match up than the Marth player your fighting does...If that makes any sense.

That's what I'm saying. You have to make Marth mess up to get any punish. But how badly does Marth really have it when he has all those tools to get Doc of the stage so easily. And you have to know wayy more than the Marth player in the match up.

But wow everyone in here is just saying, just grab him and throw him offstage, b-air him and that's it. It's not that cut and dry.

 

[St. Viers]

But wow everyone in here is just saying, just grab him and throw him offstage, b-air him and that's it. It's not that cut and dry.

Yeah--getting grabs on a marth that can space and knows that jab> all your moves is hella hard.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

But wow everyone in here is just saying, just grab him and throw him offstage, b-air him and that's it. It's not that cut and dry.

Yea it really isn't that cut and dry. In fact thats more of like a fantasy than a reality. Like b.airing Marth off the stage is an easy way out IF YOU CAN PULL IT OFF. Thats kind of the only way to easily kill him. But what I try to do is play as much offensive game as I can v.s. Marth, because if he is going to be playing offensive (which he will be because its Marth v.s. Doc) you will be stuck playing defense the whole time and thats not good. So instead I try to play offensive and throw his game off. I do this by throwing pills, b.airing, f.tilting, spotdodgeing his stupid sword **** and getting close to him, and of course grabbing him and making a combo out of it.

 

[St. Viers]

Yea it really isn't that cut and dry. In fact thats more of like a fantasy than a reality. Like b.airing Marth off the stage is an easy way out IF YOU CAN PULL IT OFF. Thats kind of the only way to easily kill him. But what I try to do is play as much offensive game as I can v.s. Marth, because if he is going to be playing offensive (which he will be because its Marth v.s. Doc) you will be stuck playing defense the whole time and thats not good. So instead I try to play offensive and throw his game off. I do this by throwing pills, b.airing, f.tilting, spotdodgeing his stupid sword **** and getting close to him, and of course grabbing him and making a combo out of it.

The problem is that, if marth plays defensively, there is almost *nothing* doc can do to him, and he'll just build up damage safely. That's mostly why you pill. Either he gets bored swatting them and comes in (since it's easy to approach through them), or he misses one, and yeah.

I hate marths that know how to not just jump in.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

Well the reason you should pill so much vs Marth is not to keep him away and/or piss him off, instead it gives doc control of the match since Marth doesn't have any items to throw back at you he is forced to play defensively.

 

[St. Viers]

Well the reason you should pill so much vs Marth is not to keep him away and/or piss him off, instead it gives doc control of the match since Marth doesn't have any items to throw back at you he is forced to play defensively.

1. Doc's projectile is not good enough to give him control of the match. It forces the marth to play offensively because he can't sit back and play passively, unless he wants to jab pills all games.

2. You *want* marth to play offensively. Otherwise, you have no way of getting in. You want him to come in, read his approach, and punish him. Trying to approach him will end badly

 

[Mr.Lemon]

1. Doc's projectile is not good enough to give him control of the match. It forces the marth to play offensively because he can't sit back and play passively, unless he wants to jab pills all games.

2. You *want* marth to play offensively. Otherwise, you have no way of getting in. You want him to come in, read his approach, and punish him. Trying to approach him will end badly

I feel like any projectile that will stun/hold him off will give that person control even if they are sitting back and spamming them. I mean even if he just swipes at them to stop them, you are still controlling the match since his options are slim at this point. This gives you the chance to try and come in on him or do one of those crazy mind game things that we were talking about earlier which causes him to mess up.

"Anytime you have the space, Pill the hell out of Marth. He can easily swipe them away and come closer, but at this point you are still controlling the match."
- Cyphus

And you do want to approach him only in certain situations however. I know you can just wait to CC one of his moves or something to get close to him. But how well you can get in on Marth is what the whole match up is about. It won't end badly if you know what your doing and how to approach him.

 

[VGmasta]

Pills aren't worthless. Marth DOES have to react to the pills. And the pills are free damage for Doc as long as Marth is staying away.

But the pills don't stack up to Falco's lasers. The pills are ONLY safe from a distance. Pilling up close is risky because Marth could choose to close space with f-airs/jabs at anytime. Doc has to always be ready for Marth to approach (even through pill spam).

 

[Mr.Lemon]

Pills aren't worthless. Marth DOES have to react to the pills. And the pills are free damage for Doc as long as Marth is staying away.

But the pills don't stack up to Falco's lasers. The pills are ONLY safe from a distance. Pilling up close is risky because Marth could choose to close space with f-airs/jabs at anytime. Doc has to always be ready for Marth to approach (even through pill spam).

Yes! I agree 100%

 

[St. Viers]

...I never said pills were worthless. I said that they don't control the match as much as they give you what you want--which is to say they force marth to come in at you (which is what cyphus is saying they do--I just don't think it gives you control of the match

As to safe distances, far away is when you can get away w/ full jump pills/double jump, etc.

Closer in, you can do sh-pills, especially if you are using them to retreat.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

Ok ok let's just agree that when playing against Marth you should use your pills whenever you can because they give Doc an advantage when using them at a safe distance, but be aware that they will force Marth to play more aggressive so be ready.

 

[Max?]

Where are the dogy facepalms when you need them?

 

[VGmasta]

...I never said pills were worthless.

Yeah, I knew that. That post wasn't really in response to yours. It more like an agreement/clarification post.

I was just clarifying for anybody else that might think that spamming pills in the match up is the solution by itself.

Where are the dogy facepalms when you need them?

In some newer fighting game probably.