Do you want/expect one-shot Zelda characters? (Midna, Ghirahim, Champions, etc.)

[Quillion]

It seems that every Smash speculation phase, there's always support for the popular one-shots such as Midna, Ghirahim, Skull Kid, the Champions, and Tetra. So I feel the need to pose this catch-all question for all of these somewhat well-loved characters.

On one hand, bringing in more one-shot Zelda characters would freshen up a section of the roster that has been limiting itself to the main Triforce bearers and variations thereof. Also, it doesn't seem fair that the Zelda reps are stagnant while franchises such as Pokémon and Fire Emblem regularly discard and draw characters to keep their sides of the roster fresh.

On the other hand, Sakurai clearly doesn't like to cut characters, as he is averse to alienating established fans (as seen by his refusal to answer to "Canondorf" demands), and he brought back as much Melee cuts as he could with the limited resources he has. So why should he introduce characters that are clearly going to be forgotten by the next Smash generation rolls around?

Yes, there's Sheik, but she's a bygone relic of the OoT days, and only acknowledged outside of Smash by Hyrule Warriors (which, by the way, has a far more faithful portrayal of her than Smash, as she actually uses her harp to do stuff). Sakurai has clearly made it a point to stop repeating the "mistake" with Sheik by relegating other one-shots to Assist Trophies at best.

So what do you think? Is it right to expect one-shot Zelda characters in Smash? Or is wanting them the best one can hope for?

 

[GoodGrief741]

I think the method Sakurai and the dev team should use is to wait and see if demand for a one-shot character keeps going even after they’re no longer relevant. That way you avoid making a character you’re gonna have to cut later (like most people are expecting Corrin to be). I think characters like Midna and Skull Kid are so iconic that they deserve to be in Smash, regardless of the fact that they were one and done. I’d also love Vaati and Tetra to make it, but I know I’m more on my own with that.

I’ve seen people on the boards make the argument that they can just add whoever’s recent and then cut them from the next game, but that’s just a waste of effort and would likely piss off a lot of people. And if you add whoever’s new and never cut anyone, you run the risk of having too many reps like Pokémon and Fire Emblem right now.

But yeah I expect nothing.

 

[Idon]

The fact that the only one shot character we've ever got is Sheik who has literally every single bit of her moveset made up for Smash really irks me.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Skull Kid isn't even one-shot, and he or a character of that race is likely to reappear in another game.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Skull Kid and Tetra aren't really one-shots, though they really only have the big claim to fame from Majora's Mask and Wind Waker, respectively.

I think, now with Hyrule Warriors out, characters like these and Midna are going to more requested and demanded/expected. Coming from someone who wants Midna in the game. I don't think it's super likely, but there's a nonzero chance it can happen.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

On the other hand, Sakurai clearly doesn't like to cut characters,

That might have been true for Smash 4, but it wasn't for Melee and Brawl. He was perfectly willing to replace Ness with Lucas in Melee with no regard for his fanbase (it didn't happen only because Mother 3 ended up with multiple delays before being cancelled). In Brawl, Pichu and Young Link weren't even planned with the latter actually being replaced by Toon Link (who is treated as a Brawl newcomer). So whilst Sakurai may have been hesitant to cut any characters for Smash 4, that wasn't always the case.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I've always felt that Sakurai neglects the Zelda series. In Brawl, Toon Link was the most clone of all of the semi-clones, to the extent that many of Tink's attacks were coded wrong (kick instead of shoulder) because they didn't bother to change the coding from the parent. Come Sm4sh and Zelda still hasn't got any newcomers but now Zelda's final smash was stolen by an interloper, and Link and Tink weren't even able to get different crowd chants.

I'd really like some of the one-shot characters. Marth, Ike, Roy, and now Robin and Lucy haven't really been relevant in Fire Emblem, but they get added all the time, meanwhile Zelda keeps the same characters. I'd also like if any new Zelda characters would rep their respective games so that Link and Zelda could stay relatively the same (Zelda is doing quite well representing Ocarina of Time, whereas Link is pretty well a general Link from all of the games). Honestly, Tink should have more of a Wind-Waker moveset to rep that game and to declone him a bit, and Ganondorf should discard some of his more blatant Falcon moves to rep a general Ganon/dorf moveset.

Midna's been one of the biggest names in all of this, and she could easily rep Twilight Princess herelf. After Hyrule Warriors, moveset is not an issue anymore. The same could be said of Fi, but Ghirahim is the name more often bandied about, which would also be appropriate and give us another villain. Same with Skull Kid and Majora's Mask, but there are also calls for Young Link with a new mask moveset, which may be harder to implement. (Yes, Skull Kids the race have appeared elsewhere, but people don't want the rando you get a Piece of Heart from in Ocarina, they want the one wearing Majora's Mask, who was only in one game)

As for Breath of the Wild, that would be tough to get one rep for all of them. Sakurai doesn't like to add characters with no future (or at least he holds this rule for Zelda and not Fire Emblem) and all of the champions are dead, so that presents a problem. I can't see all four getting in (but how awesome would that be), and just putting one in would feel like breaking up a set. True, each race does have their own versions of each weapon style, so it's conceivable that one champion could represent all four (get all four champion abilities as specials, use various weapons as normals, and a divine beast final smash), but again, which could be considered more important than the rest? A fun compromise would be for all four to share a slot and moveset, but while scaling Urbosa, Revali, and Mipha to fit, Daruk would not work well in that case. Or, another character could be added to use all four champions specials and summon their spirits as necessary (Kass, or go with a sheikah like Impa here).

Trying to place one champion over the others is also tough based on timing. If the roster was planned around summer of '16, that means that he had access to the concept art and maybe some hints from the directors about their abilities and personalities, but not their reception. I think the directors were surprised how popular Sidon ended up being. That also makes it much harder to predict what will happen.

If it were up to me, I would 100% put Zelda one-shots in, and in this order:

1. Urbosa (BotW)
2. Midna (TP)
3. Ghirahim (SS)
4. Revali (BotW)
5. Skull Kid (MM)

 

[Quillion]

I’ve seen people on the boards make the argument that they can just add whoever’s recent and then cut them from the next game, but that’s just a waste of effort and would likely piss off a lot of people. And if you add whoever’s new and never cut anyone, you run the risk of having too many reps like Pokémon and Fire Emblem right now.

Yep, this is a Morton's Fork like no other. I don't think the Zelda, Pokémon, and Fire Emblem reps should be hard reset every game, but I also don't want them to accumulate them with no restriction. Here's my take:

• The staple Zelda cast should be Link, Toon Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. Sheik shouldn't be a staple, IMO, but she is now. There should be room for a single one-shot (two if Sheik can go).
• The staple Pokémon should be Pikachu, Charizard, Mewtwo, and Lucario. Jigglypuff shouldn't be a staple (again IMO, but if it gets upgraded to secondary mascot like Eevee, I wouldn't mind), but it is now. There should be room for two current-gen Pokémon (three if Jigglypuff can go).
• Fire Emblem is trickier, but I think the staple cast should be Marth, Roy, Ike, and Lyn. There should be room for three current-gen Fire Emblem characters.

 

[Opossum]

Personally I think we have a good shot at getting a Champion, considering they literally represent recurring races in the series. Mipha would be my bet, but I'd love to have Daruk.

 

[RosaPeach]

Man I wish my boy Ghirahim was in smash but if Skyward Sword HD happens maybe Ghirahim has a chance

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I definitely am predicting a BOTW newcomer, although it's porbably not super likely. One of my problems about thinking of the Champions as one-shots, is that we don't know that yet. Sakurai doesn't know that yet. For all we know they might be in the next Zelda game, or reincarnations of them. So I don't think Sakurai thinks too much about that.

Yea maybe he just hates the Zelda series lol.

 

[Quillion]

I definitely am predicting a BOTW newcomer, although it's porbably not super likely. One of my problems about thinking of the Champions as one-shots, is that we don't know that yet. Sakurai doesn't know that yet. For all we know they might be in the next Zelda game, or reincarnations of them. So I don't think Sakurai thinks too much about that.

Yea maybe he just hates the Zelda series lol.

Well, he did make the "mistake" of assuming Sheik would be in later Zelda games if that's the case.

Honestly, is there any reason for Smash excluding Tetra, Midna, and Ghirahim other than Sakurai not wanting to make the Sheik "mistake" again? By the time Brawl started development, he's clearly been careful to not include characters that would become irrelevant by the next Smash iteration.

Besides, the Zelda series is ultimately about Link, Zelda, and Ganon as reincarnating spirits as well as the commonalities and differences between their frequent clashes. Characters like Skull Kid, Midna, Zant, Ghirahim, and the Champions only serve to highlight this.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Besides, the Zelda series is ultimately about Link, Zelda, and Ganon as reincarnating spirits as well as the commonalities and differences between their frequent clashes. Characters like Skull Kid, Midna, Zant, Ghirahim, and the Champions only serve to highlight this.

The Mario series (and probably others, I'm not going to go through them right now) has side characters, when it's ultimately about Mario, Peach, and Bowser.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Well, he did make the "mistake" of assuming Sheik would be in later Zelda games if that's the case.

Honestly, is there any reason for Smash excluding Tetra, Midna, and Ghirahim other than Sakurai not wanting to make the Sheik "mistake" again? By the time Brawl started development, he's clearly been careful to not include characters that would become irrelevant by the next Smash iteration.

Besides, the Zelda series is ultimately about Link, Zelda, and Ganon as reincarnating spirits as well as the commonalities and differences between their frequent clashes. Characters like Skull Kid, Midna, Zant, Ghirahim, and the Champions only serve to highlight this.

I don't know if that's truly his mindset. Possibly with the Zelda series, but demonstrably not with Fire Emblem. I remember there was an interview where he even said that if Fire Emblem Awakening had come out 6 months earlier or later, that Robin and Lucina wouldn't be included. Sakurai, at least for Fire Emblem, does not seem to mind characters being flavor-of-the-month.

I also think Shiek's in a bit of a different place since she was originally conceived as Zelda's gimmick. It worked nicely in Melee, but Brawl's loading times really killed the transfomation characters. Shiek probably made it into Sm4sh since she was originally designed to act as before, but then the 3DS couldn't handle the transformations and they just gave her a quick new down special that they copied from ZSS and left it at that. If they had started thinking about Zelda as her own character, I don't know how high-priority Shiek would have been.

Now I would like if characters weren't cut, so I prefer to be conservative about who gets in and who doesn't, but DLC opens a realm of possibility where older characters can be ported over and made available with limited time. I know I'd pay to get my favorites back. Balance is another thing with loads and loads of characters like this, but Smash is conceived as a free-for-all, and balancing free-for-all matches is much different than balancing characters for Fox only, no items, Final Destination.

 

[Quillion]

The Mario series (and probably others, I'm not going to go through them right now) has side characters, when it's ultimately about Mario, Peach, and Bowser.

Yeah, but Mario's core cast is a bit larger than Zelda's currently. It also includes Luigi, Rosalina, and Captain Toad.

Plus, certain Mario side characters tend to get their own spinoff series, which Smash strangely counts as separate franchises.

I don't know if that's truly his mindset. Possibly with the Zelda series, but demonstrably not with Fire Emblem. I remember there was an interview where he even said that if Fire Emblem Awakening had come out 6 months earlier or later, that Robin and Lucina wouldn't be included. Sakurai, at least for Fire Emblem, does not seem to mind characters being flavor-of-the-month.

To be fair, FE has no recurring core cast. Only recurring side characters at best.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I wouldn’t say Rosalina is part of the Mario series’ core cast at all. Bowser Jr. would be more appropriate given how he reappears in main series titles, but your mileage may vary on him.

 

[Quillion]

I wouldn’t say Rosalina is part of the Mario series’ core cast at all. Bowser Jr. would be more appropriate given how he reappears in main series titles, but your mileage may vary on him.

Well, Rosalina definitely was part of the core cast circa Smash 4, having appeared in the Galaxy games, 3D World, and every spinoff since the former. Even still, I wouldn't put it past them to include Rosalina in Odyssey DLC or a full sequel.

Also, yes, I did forget Jr.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

The Only One-shot Zelda Character I'M Expecting to make it into smash; IS LINKLE From Hyrule Warriors

She has THESE Things Going for her:
A. Her Popularity
B. Her Relevance(Especially with the Release of Hyrule Warriors: Definitive Edition)
C. Her Unique Utilization of Dual-Wielding Crossbows
D. Wouldn't be TOO far out of place in Smash

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I really don't see the problem with it, if they make an interesting character and are popular and wanted they should be added. Smash has this way of immortalizing characters long after they've fallen out of relevance, sheik is a perfect example, she's more so known and popular because of her appearances in smash. Had sheik never been in smash there's no way she'd be in popular as she is today. Similarly if a champion were added they would forever be relevant just because they're in smash.

 

[Runic_SSB]

I want Groose but I in no way expect him.

 

[Sage of Ice]

Yea maybe he just hates the Zelda series lol.

certainly feels that way, doesn't it? i mean we've had a fair few items, assists, and some good stages - but we've had the same handful of characters for 18 years even though plenty of great options have come and gone since then.

if it were up to me, half the roster would be zelda. but just one new option would be enough.

 

[Quillion]

The Only One-shot Zelda Character I'M Expecting to make it into smash; IS LINKLE From Hyrule Warriors

She has THESE Things Going for her:
A. Her Popularity
B. Her Relevance(Especially with the Release of Hyrule Warriors: Definitive Edition)
C. Her Unique Utilization of Dual-Wielding Crossbows
D. Wouldn't be TOO far out of place in Smash

There's a major roadbump though: she is a SPINOFF character. Depending on how you count Dr. Mario, Linkle is either impossible or close to it.

I really don't see the problem with it, if they make an interesting character and are popular and wanted they should be added. Smash has this way of immortalizing characters long after they've fallen out of relevance, sheik is a perfect example, she's more so known and popular because of her appearances in smash. Had sheik never been in smash there's no way she'd be in popular as she is today. Similarly if a champion were added they would forever be relevant just because they're in smash.

Wait, is Sheik even that popular? I know Smash has contributed to Roy's popularity and it alongside FE Heroes has helped spark demand of Elibe remakes. But last I checked, people seem to like Tetra more than Sheik to this day.

 

[verysleepywolf]

I hate the relevancy barrier, they think they have to use iconic third parties instead of delving into their own history. It has to be the most frustrating thing about SSB's roster growth for myself personally. I still love third-party characters and can get excited about them. I just would rather we get more of those popular niche characters that old-school Nintendo fans want.

In the case of Zelda, since most of the franchise consists of one-shot characters save for Impa and Tingle I feel that it's one of the only ways the series can get more characters. And Impa / Tingle aren't even the most demanded. I would still love Impa, but Skull Kid is still my dream and Midna is a close second. Ghirahim would be great, so would Vaati, or Lana, or Ganon. Zelda has such diverse and interesting characters that the excuse of relevancy maddens me to no end. It's a flagship franchise alongside Mario and Pokemon. It's extremely popular. What gives?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

One thing that just came to me as I'm playing through HW (They're getting Skyrim level with rereleases...and I keep buying it lol)

Hyrule Warriors is a spinoff, but it was incredibly received and brought relevance back to a lot of the one shots. Will this have any influence on Smash?

Personally, I'd want to see the canon characters get into smash before the spinoff OCs are even considered, but there are a few interesting points:

• Sm4sh didn't use anything from HW since it came out around the same time. Now that Sakurai's seen how well it went (and Fire Emblem also got it), would there be some references from there? Possibly some moves? Costumes?
• It did bring a few characters back to relevance, namely Impa, Midna, and Ghirahim, and gave them all fitting movesets...
• Plus the OCs as well - but are they in a Geno situation where they belong to Koei Tecmo?

It'd be interesting to see if Sakurai looks at this, especially since HW was the love letter to the Zelda series that Smash never gave us.

But I'm also wondering if HW will have more DLC...considering the only BotW references are Link's and Zelda's outfits. I would kill for the champions to be DLC in HW since it's next to impossible to get all four in Smash.

 

[Idon]

Hyrule Warriors did all the characters that got into Smash ACTUAL JUSTICE and gave them moves that felt fun, flashy, accurate, and actually powerful.

Seriously, if Sakurai doesn't see moveset potential in Zelda characters now, he's blind.

So glad HW managed to make Toon Link and Young Link so unique and actually fun to play as well!

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Yeah, but Mario's core cast is a bit larger than Zelda's currently. It also includes Luigi, Rosalina, and Captain Toad.

Plus, certain Mario side characters tend to get their own spinoff series, which Smash strangely counts as separate franchises.

It seems you're defining 'core cast' to suit your needs here. Captain Toad sure as hell isn't part of the core cast, unless you think Tingle or Tetra are core cast members of Zelda, since they got their own games.

Well, Rosalina definitely was part of the core cast circa Smash 4, having appeared in the Galaxy games, 3D World, and every spinoff since the former.

Being playable doesn't make a character part of the core cast. Rosalina doesn't matter.

There's a major roadbump though: she is a SPINOFF character. Depending on how you count Dr. Mario, Linkle is either impossible or close to it.

Wait, now spinoff characters get demerits? You were just talking about how Rosalina is in all the spinoffs. Regardless, I don't know of any evidence for this rule, except that the game wasn't developed by Nintendo.

Wait, is Sheik even that popular? I know Smash has contributed to Roy's popularity and it alongside FE Heroes has helped spark demand of Elibe remakes. But last I checked, people seem to like Tetra more than Sheik to this day.

Who the **** likes Tetra more than Sheik?

 

[Quillion]

It seems you're defining 'core cast' to suit your needs here. Captain Toad sure as hell isn't part of the core cast, unless you think Tingle or Tetra are core cast members of Zelda, since they got their own games.

Being playable doesn't make a character part of the core cast. Rosalina doesn't matter.

The core characters are those which appear in at least three games and have prominent roles in at least two. "Prominent roles" either means has a major story role or is playable. You're free to disprove me.

Wait, now spinoff characters get demerits? You were just talking about how Rosalina is in all the spinoffs. Regardless, I don't know of any evidence for this rule, except that the game wasn't developed by Nintendo.

Dammit, I thought we all agreed that saying "Goku is a video game character because he appears in video games" is bad reasoning.

Linkle ORIGINATES in a spinoff; that's my point.

Who the **** likes Tetra more than Sheik?

I've never seen a single person speak positively about Sheik's character, meaning in a way not influenced by Smash. I see Tetra praised for her awesome personality and fighting Ganon head on, while Sheik tends to be thought of as nothing more than a signpost. Again, you're free to disprove me.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The core characters are those which appear in at least three games and have prominent roles in at least two. "Prominent roles" either means has a major story role or is playable. You're free to disprove me.

Disprove your noxiously ad hoc definition?

Dammit, I thought we all agreed that saying "Goku is a video game character because he appears in video games" is bad reasoning.

I don't see how this is relevant.

I've never seen a single person speak positively about Sheik's character, meaning in a way not influenced by Smash. I see Tetra praised for her awesome personality and fighting Ganon head on, while Sheik tends to be thought of as nothing more than a signpost. Again, you're free to disprove me.

Disprove your anecdote with my own anecdote?

 

[NintenRob]

I still believe that Skull Kid is the most logical inclusion for a newcomer

He and the Mask are probably the most iconic Zelda characters not in Smash
Has fairly consistent design throughout the series. The Mask especially has only ever been refined rather than changed at all.
A lot of fan demand
Majora's Mask being the subject of a lot of talk online.
Very remembered. They even got a costume in Monster Hunter Stories.
Already quite prominent in Smash, the very first assist trophy shown and among the first costumes added. The mask was even the subject of a trophy tussle back in Melee.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I still believe that Skull Kid is the most logical inclusion for a newcomer

He and the Mask are probably the most iconic Zelda characters not in Smash
Has fairly consistent design throughout the series. The Mask especially has only ever been refined rather than changed at all.
A lot of fan demand
Majora's Mask being the subject of a lot of talk online.
Very remembered. They even got a costume in Monster Hunter Stories.
Already quite prominent in Smash, the very first assist trophy shown and among the first costumes added. The mask was even the subject of a trophy tussle back in Melee.

While he wouldn't be my first choice you're not wrong, Skull Kid and that mask are just so iconic and recognizable in the gaming community and he's a reoccuring character who can come back easily if they so choose. He, Impa and Tetra should have priority over any one off.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

There's a major roadbump though: she is a SPINOFF character. Depending on how you count Dr. Mario, Linkle is either impossible or close to it.

If Dr. Mario can make it in; So Can Linkle; and Besides, It'd ALSO Be Nice to See the Hyrule Warriors Incarnation of Ganondorf in Smash for Switch; Since:
1st. Ganondorf WASN'T in BOTW, As He had since then DEVOLVED into a Primal Beast that is even More Destructive and Dangerous than EITHER Demise, OR The Imprisoned COMBINED!!; And If Ridley was Considered too big for Smash; THAN Calamity Ganon would take up the ENTIRE ROSTER of Space; and Since BOTW Link is the basis of Smash for Switch's Link; they're Not gonna use the same dang TWILIGHT PRINCESS DESIGN OF Ganondorf, Because that's lazy and Illogical
2nd. The TP incarnation from Brawl & SSB4 is nothing more than just a Glorified Captain Falcon Clone.
3rd. Ganon, being the Main antagonist of the Zelda Franchise DESERVES to be in a Class of his own of playable characters; Unique Gameplay, Unique Design, especially with those 2 Swords he used in Hyrule Warriors and maybe even give Kirby a Long Mane and Eyebrows like his moral Feral Beast-like form in HW!!

While he wouldn't be my first choice you're not wrong, Skull Kid and that mask are just so iconic and recognizable in the gaming community and he's a reoccuring character who can come back easily if they so choose. He, Impa and Tetra should have priority over any one off.

What about Linkle & Her Crossbows, and the HW Incarnation of Ganondorf(THERE'S NO WAY IN LORULE THAT THE BIG N WOULD USE THE CALAMITY GANON AS A FIGHTER; IF RIDLEY'S TOO BIG FOR SMASH; YOU CAN JUST FORGET ABOUT INCLUDING THE CALAMITY GANON!!)

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

What about Linkle & Her Crossbows, and the HW Incarnation of Ganondorf(THERE'S NO WAY IN LORULE THAT THE BIG N WOULD USE THE CALAMITY GANON AS A FIGHTER; IF RIDLEY'S TOO BIG FOR SMASH; YOU CAN JUST FORGET ABOUT INCLUDING THE CALAMITY GANON!!)

I assume they'll redesign ganon in the BOTW style like sheik in brawl (the tp concept technically existed beforehand but they can get them to create a design so whatever)

Linkle just isn't important enough, she's a minor character in a spin-off game that was developed by a 3rd party studio, if we were to get any hyrule warriors character it would be Lana or the HW version of Impa.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

HW definitely gives a boost to the Zelda one-shots. The Impa incarnation people want is the HW one, since in all games save OoT (where she did nothing except stand there) and SS (where it was a 'back in time' thing), she's been an elderly noncombatant.

Would be interesting to consider what'll happen to Shiek as a one-shot as well - Will they put her and Zelda back together since it was the 3DS that made the limitation, or would they consider her a standalone...in which case she's relatively unimportant, and Impa probably should take that moveset.

Midna may have gotten the most of a boost from HW outside of Impa, as she's been much more hotly requested since Brawl's days. Zant, Fi, Darunia, Ruto, and definitely Agitha were never huge names in speculation, so their current appearances mean little, but Ghirahim;s another one that got a boost. After all, Midna and Ghirahim made it as assists in the last round - impressive for Midna as her game came before Brawl, but is being referenced in a Smash game almost ten years later.

I can't see the OCs getting anything, and I'll wager that would annoy a LOT of people to see these spin-off only OCs getting in over the major characters from main-series games.

Also something to consider - Zelda has only had humans as reps. Would they favor a non-human representative? Midna's a Twili (and her recognizable form is a little imp thing), Mipha's a Zora (Personally, I HATE the new look for them, except the blue ones), Daruk's a Goron, and Revali's a Rito. If we wanted to avoid "ugh anime swordsmen!", they'd be good choices. Then again, the only Gerudo we have is the Dorf, which may or may not lead to unfortunate implications if the only darker-skinned character in Smash is a villain (which may also be lessened now that his skin is greenish), which would help Urbosa as a heroic Gerudo as well.

There's a lot that goes into Zelda representation. I'm probably overthinking this.

 

[Quillion]

Disprove your noxiously ad hoc definition?

Considering that you refuse to give your own definition, your answer is incomplete.

I don't see how this is relevant.

You missed the point, which was in the very next paragraph.

Disprove your anecdote with my own anecdote?

You give me no reason as to why Sheik can be considered a better character than Tetra.

 

[Idon]

To put the argument at rest, more people like Sheik more than Tetra.
However, that is because more people know of Sheik than Tetra due to Smash giving her a huge boost in popularity.

When you go to Zelda discussions, you'll notice that there isn't much talk about Sheik because Sheik doesn't have much of a personality outside of appearing mysteriously to Link and being generally stoic and aloof.
Tetra, on the other hand, will have many fans gushing about how Tetra's so much more confident, cunning, fun, mischievous, and so much more active in the story than any other Zelda.

 

[Sage of Ice]

i could also point out that miyamoto and the zelda team talked about wanting to do a game about sheik, just a couple years ago. if nobody liked her and they knew it, would they bother entertaining the notion, or telling us about it at all?

how exactly did we get on this tangent anyway?

 

[Cosmic77]

I think everyone (myself included) is looking back at the lack of Zelda reps and is trying to create the most convoluted and overly-complicated rules to explain why we haven't gotten anyone new.

Honestly, this shouldn't be as hard as we're making it out to be. There doesn't need to be a rule for a character to be iconic or recurring before it can be considered for Smash, and I highly doubt Sakurai is as strict as we're making him out to be. For all we know, popular characters like Midna and Impa may have not gotten in Smash for the simplest reasons, such as Sakurai feeling like Zelda needed a break after getting four newcomers in Melee, or him not being aware of Impa's demand in mid 2012.

 

[Quillion]

i could also point out that miyamoto and the zelda team talked about wanting to do a game about sheik, just a couple years ago. if nobody liked her and they knew it, would they bother entertaining the notion, or telling us about it at all?

how exactly did we get on this tangent anyway?

I didn't say that no one likes Sheik; people do like her at least on a character design and conceptual level.

I said that no one seems to like her on her character. To put this in perspective, I've seen more people speak positively of ROY's character than I have seen done of Sheik's character.

I think everyone (myself included) is looking back at the lack of Zelda reps and is trying to create the most convoluted and overly-complicated rules to explain why we haven't gotten anyone new.

Honestly, this shouldn't be as hard as we're making it out to be. There doesn't need to be a rule for a character to be iconic or recurring before it can be considered for Smash, and I highly doubt Sakurai is as strict as we're making him out to be. For all we know, popular characters like Midna and Impa may have not gotten in Smash for the simplest reasons, such as Sakurai feeling like Zelda needed a break after getting four newcomers in Melee, or him not being aware of Impa's demand in mid 2012.

How is "not letting one-off Zelda characters in Smash" an "overly complicated rule"? The only wrinkle is the presence of Sheik, but we have reason to believe that they don't want to repeat the mistake of assuming a character will be in future games.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

I assume they'll redesign ganon in the BOTW style like sheik in brawl (the tp concept technically existed beforehand but they can get them to create a design so whatever)

Linkle just isn't important enough, she's a minor character in a spin-off game that was developed by a 3rd party studio, if we were to get any hyrule warriors character it would be Lana or the HW version of Impa.

THEY CANNOT; GANONDORF DIDN'T EXIST IN THAT GAME!!

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

THEY CANNOT; GANONDORF DIDN'T EXIST IN THAT GAME!!

Sheik doesn't exist in Twilight Princess.