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Do you think the designers of brawl knew what tiers the chars would be?

Big-Cat

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Like I've said before, Smash is successful in part because the competitive community is ignored. While they don't actively want a harder game, the things they want will indirectly make the game harder. This is why I say Street Fighter is domed because to make a more assessable SF would bring hostility from the competitive players. Smash has not reached that point, so it is a good thing. of course, in Smash, it would work in reverse. The lower end players would be hostile if the game became to hard and competitively focused.
Yet the SFIV series has been more or less about trying to bring in a more mainstream audience; not soccer moms and whatnot necessarily, but a larger audience and that has involved making it more casual friendly while still keeping the competitive values intact. Before you bring up sales, remember that Super Smash Bros. brings in all sorts of people who are fans of particular Nintendo series. Street Fighter just has the Street Fighter fans as an established audience.

You say that Smash is successful in part because the competitive community is ignored. What do you call stuff like perfect shielding, ukemi (teching), invincibility frames, TOURNAMENT MODE, etc.? I'd call these competitive elements in the game.

I like how you say I look from the eyes of the competitive player, yet you're the one looking from the opposite end of the spectrum.
 

Shinde425

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What if, for the next smash (if there might be one, by any chance at all), they got two groups working on it? Like the game would take longer to come out, but it would have two different disks. One group would make the casual players smash (the party game; items always on, tripping, chaos, ect). While the other group could focus on competitive matches (no items to speak of, intended advanced techniques, character balance, ect). As crazy as that sounds, it'd appeal to the casual and competitive crowd. Just some food for thought. /offtopic
 

SmashChu

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Yet the SFIV series has been more or less about trying to bring in a more mainstream audience; not soccer moms and whatnot necessarily, but a larger audience and that has involved making it more casual friendly while still keeping the competitive values intact. Before you bring up sales, remember that Super Smash Bros. brings in all sorts of people who are fans of particular Nintendo series. Street Fighter just has the Street Fighter fans as an established audience.
Despite having just Street Fighter fans, SF4 sold less then Street Fighter 2. Despite being on two systems, it only sold around 2million units, still a far cry from it's glory days.

Smash is successful because of it's accessibility and loads of content. If it sold because of Nintendo characters, then how come the vs Capcom games have not achieved Smash Bros. sales levels despite being two popular properties?

Street Fighter 4 is still very inassesable. Despite being slower, they made it harder because of the reliance on knowing what you are doing (vs most games where you press a string of buttons and do OK. Basically, SF is trying to oust button mashing by making the game harder overall). Heck, even inputs are harder to do over other games like Tatsunoko Vs Capcom. SF4 did OK because of the nostalgia factor, but can't grow due to it's huge barriers.

You say that Smash is successful in part because the competitive community is ignored. What do you call stuff like perfect shielding, ukemi (teching), invincibility frames, TOURNAMENT MODE, etc.? I'd call these competitive elements in the game.
Most of those are present in every other fighting game. Smash is missing a lot, and it removed a lot of AT already in Smsh (wavedashing, L-canceling, dash-dancing ect.). What you mentioned was pretty tame.
 

Ledger_Damayn

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Just wanted to note that Sakurai also made Snake. Clearly someone's balance intentions were different than the rest of the developer's.

EDIT: Actually, maybe Sakurai had it right. If every character was as broke as they were, Brawl would be really interesting.
 

Donkey Bong

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they HAD to know they were making a broken *** character when they programmed MK's frame data.
 

Big-Cat

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Despite having just Street Fighter fans, SF4 sold less then Street Fighter 2. Despite being on two systems, it only sold around 2million units, still a far cry from it's glory days.
Because comparing sales of two games from two different time periods in videogame history is accurate. Street Fighter II started off the fighting game genre; Street Fighter IV didn't. That's like comparing Super Mario Bros.'s sales to those of Galaxy's. One established the platformer genre; the other didn't.

Smash is successful because of it's accessibility and loads of content. If it sold because of Nintendo characters, then how come the vs Capcom games have not achieved Smash Bros. sales levels despite being two popular properties?
Nintendo characters are far far more popular than most Capcom characters. Since you love sales so much: Here's the list of the top ten selling series:
1. Mario (210 million)
2. Pokémon (193 million)
3. Tetris (125 million)
4. The Sims (100 million)
5. Need for Speed (100 million)
6. Final Fantasy (85 million)
7. Grand Theft Auto (70 million)
8. Madden NFL (70 million)
9. FIFA (65 million)
10. The Legend of Zelda (57 million)
Notice that we have three Nintendo series on here (four if you want to count Tetris, but that's a big stretch). Notice that there's not a single Capcom series on here. Resident Evil with 40 million copies is the most successful Capcom franchise at 24. The second most successful is Megaman with 28 million copies at 35. Interestingly enough, Street Fighter is the third largest franchise for Capcom with 27 million copies, but I digress.

The point here is that star power IS one of the biggest sales factors. Gameplay and content are others, but star power is probably the reason most of us got into this series.

Street Fighter 4 is still very inassesable. Despite being slower, they made it harder because of the reliance on knowing what you are doing (vs most games where you press a string of buttons and do OK. Basically, SF is trying to oust button mashing by making the game harder overall). Heck, even inputs are harder to do over other games like Tatsunoko Vs Capcom. SF4 did OK because of the nostalgia factor, but can't grow due to it's huge barriers.
It's only inaccessible to the lazy. Personally, I like it where I know what I'm doing instead of pressing a bunch of buttons hoping something happens. Gee, what do you know? Smash has the same stuff, but simplified executions. You can't really button mash in either games.

To be honest, I think this button mashing aspect has affected the genre more than anything else. People think you have to memorize a bunch of random buttons in order to be effective. If I show people this video of Juri doing her Ultra combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sENw6v95yyk#t=2m08s . They will probably think that involves some sort of long sequence of buttons at specific times when it's just two quick controller motions and pressing all three kick buttons at once (or one button on console controllers) to do the entire attack. If it were like the former, people will be intimidated with the game. Thus, this leads to people not buying the game.

That's why I prefer Street Fighter over Tekken. I'd rather worry about what my opponent is going to do, not what I'll churn out from pressing random buttons.
 

SmashChu

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Because comparing sales of two games from two different time periods in videogame history is accurate. Street Fighter II started off the fighting game genre; Street Fighter IV didn't. That's like comparing Super Mario Bros.'s sales to those of Galaxy's. One established the platformer genre; the other didn't.
Every game in that time started a gnere, and many were successdul. Just because it started something does not make it fun or interesting and may not make the cash register go *ding*.

Since the early 90s, the game industry and populations have grown. So why is SF4 so far away from a game from the early 90s? That is the question. And I answer it.


Nintendo characters are far far more popular than most Capcom characters. Since you love sales so much: Here's the list of the top ten selling series:
1. Mario (210 million)
2. Pokémon (193 million)
3. Tetris (125 million)
4. The Sims (100 million)
5. Need for Speed (100 million)
6. Final Fantasy (85 million)
7. Grand Theft Auto (70 million)
8. Madden NFL (70 million)
9. FIFA (65 million)
10. The Legend of Zelda (57 million)
Notice that we have three Nintendo series on here (four if you want to count Tetris, but that's a big stretch). Notice that there's not a single Capcom series on here. Resident Evil with 40 million copies is the most successful Capcom franchise at 24. The second most successful is Megaman with 28 million copies at 35. Interestingly enough, Street Fighter is the third largest franchise for Capcom with 27 million copies, but I digress.
Street Fighter 2 sold 6 million or so, and there were probably 10 million players in total between the Genesis, SNES and the arcade. Naturally, it sales should be less then Smash. it is still possible it has had more players.

Your assumption is the game sold a lot due to star power, but how do you explain the fact5 that between three games, the sales have gone up. That means more new players have entered. Oppose this to almost every other fighting game where the sales tend to go down and they lose people.

Also, accessibility is prevalent in many other games. Wii Sports blew doors down thanks to accessibility. So did Mario Kart Wii. Smash is probably also likely to follow this. Logic dictates that accessibility is what is making sales go up.

The point here is that star power IS one of the biggest sales factors. Gameplay and content are others, but star power is probably the reason most of us got into this series.
Sales would not be going up for star power, especially as the roster has been continuing to become more niche oriented. It also wouldn't explain the rising sales as star power wears off rather quickly. Star power is what help launch the series, but it is not the reason it hs been growing for almost 10 years (where all other fighting games shrink) and why people continually play it. People don't keep playing games they hate.

To be honest, I think this button mashing aspect has affected the genre more than anything else. People think you have to memorize a bunch of random buttons in order to be effective. If I show people this video of Juri doing her Ultra combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sENw6v95yyk#t=2m08s . They will probably think that involves some sort of long sequence of buttons at specific times when it's just two quick controller motions and pressing all three kick buttons at once (or one button on console controllers) to do the entire attack. If it were like the former, people will be intimidated with the game. Thus, this leads to people not buying the game.
You see, even that is still complicated. This is what is holing Street Fighter back. The inputs are too hard.

That's why I prefer Street Fighter over Tekken. I'd rather worry about what my opponent is going to do, not what I'll churn out from pressing random buttons.
Tekken has, overall, been more successful then SF. Maybe there is a reason.

Just wanted to note that Sakurai also made Snake. Clearly someone's balance intentions were different than the rest of the developer's.

EDIT: Actually, maybe Sakurai had it right. If every character was as broke as they were, Brawl would be really interesting.
Snake is not broken. Snake isn't even over powered.

Broken-The character, literally, breaks the game. The character is to the point to where all other characters are vastly superior and you'll win just because you used that character. Akuma in Street Fighter 2 was as he had air fireballs, can't be dizzied, half his moves are invincible and his hitbox even disappeared half of the time.

Over-powered-To affect so strongly as to make helpless or ineffective; overwhelm. The character is beatable, but he makes the game very lopsided. Snake is relatively even with a lot of characters, so he is not overpowered.
 

Big-Cat

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Every game in that time started a gnere, and many were successdul. Just because it started something does not make it fun or interesting and may not make the cash register go *ding*.

Since the early 90s, the game industry and populations have grown. So why is SF4 so far away from a game from the early 90s? That is the question. And I answer it.
Yet Street Fighter II was all that and a bag of chips. Funny how I point out a hole in your logic yet you act hypocritically in response.

And you didn't answer anything. I just see BS.

Street Fighter 2 sold 6 million or so, and there were probably 10 million players in total between the Genesis, SNES and the arcade. Naturally, it sales should be less then Smash. it is still possible it has had more players.
What is this supposed to mean? Why is it natural for its sales to be smaller than Smash's? Is this more of that difficulty bull crap? I'll get to that later.

Your assumption is the game sold a lot due to star power, but how do you explain the fact5 that between three games, the sales have gone up. That means more new players have entered. Oppose this to almost every other fighting game where the sales tend to go down and they lose people.
Easy.

Melee:
1. Sequel to a surprisingly popular N64 game.
2. Came out right around launch AND Christmas.
3. The inclusion of fan favorites like Peach, Bowser, and more.
4. Limited competition with other fighting games on the GC.

Brawl:
1. Sequel to the best selling game on the Gamecube.
2. Massive hype train.
3. Addition of fan favorites like Pit, Diddy Kong, SONIC, etc.
4. Like Melee, limited competition with other fighters on the Wii.

Also, accessibility is prevalent in many other games. Wii Sports blew doors down thanks to accessibility. So did Mario Kart Wii. Smash is probably also likely to follow this. Logic dictates that accessibility is what is making sales go up.
I thought Wii Sports was "successful" because it was packaged with every Wii and showed everyone how the motion controls work. I don't know if Mario Kart Wii succeeded for those reasons.

You see, even that is still complicated. This is what is holing Street Fighter back. The inputs are too hard.
Are you even trying to come up with a decent response. I suppose anything beyond pressing one button is too complicated for you.

Tekken has, overall, been more successful then SF. Maybe there is a reason.
Do you have an idea as to why?
 

Mota

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Doubt it, but if they did, seemed like they wanted Snake up there with his super hitboxes xD
 

SmashChu

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Yet Street Fighter II was all that and a bag of chips. Funny how I point out a hole in your logic yet you act hypocritically in response.
You do realize that Street Fighter 1 started the genre right? Yet it was not successful, and most people consider it a bad game. It had no competition. Why did it fail and SF2 succeed. You don't know. [/quote]

Also, you always try to say SF2 wasn't accessible, but remember that arcade games had to be successful. The arcade were a great example of competition as the player could easily stop playing your game and play a competitor's game right next to yours. People didn't have time to learn thousands of moves and actions. They had to be able to jump right in (one reason SF2 was successful is because it stayed true to the arcade philosophy. There were only special moves and standard attacks. Other games have been adding tons of fluff making the game less accessible).

What is this supposed to mean? Why is it natural for its sales to be smaller than Smash's? Is this more of that difficulty bull crap? I'll get to that later.
Thought this would be common sense, but I guess not.
Why should Smash have done better in raw sales?
  1. The population in the world in 2009 is greater then that in the early 90s. Only now is population decreasing.
  2. The game industry has grown a great deal since that time
  3. Favorable economy allowed for more buying. Only now is that trend reversing
  4. SF2 was on multiple systems and in the arcade. Some people were playing the game despite not owning a copy. You have to buy Smash for the N64/GCN/Wii to play it

Easy.

Melee:
1. Sequel to a surprisingly popular N64 game.
2. Came out right around launch AND Christmas.
3. The inclusion of fan favorites like Peach, Bowser, and more.
4. Limited competition with other fighting games on the GC.

Brawl:
1. Sequel to the best selling game on the Gamecube.
2. Massive hype train.
3. Addition of fan favorites like Pit, Diddy Kong, SONIC, etc.
4. Like Melee, limited competition with other fighters on the Wii.
The one I highlighted is the only on that counts. Let me show you why all of these are wrong.

First (under Melee), you have to assume the 64 game was popular to assume #1 was a reason people bought the new game. That means 64 was good. Star Power can not do this. Only a good game can.

Fan favorite characters won't matter to it if the game wasn't good to begin with. I'll ignore the one under Brawl.

People don't buy based on competition. If that was true, why is Tatsunoko vs Capcom doing so bad in Japan despite there are no other fighting games to compete with (and most people don't even consider Smash a fighting game). Mario Kart was very successful despite the high competition from racing games? Why are the shooters on the Wii not preforming as well despite little competition (especially from a big game)? Rarely do people buy based on genres. They just want something to play that will entertain them. If 64 was a bad game, the other game would not have sold.

And, again, hype only works if the game was originally successful. Again, you have to assume the game was good.

So no, most of what you attributed is not related to star power, but the game being good.

I thought Wii Sports was "successful" because it was packaged with every Wii and showed everyone how the motion controls work. I don't know if Mario Kart Wii succeeded for those reasons.
A common misconception from hardcore gamers is that Gaming is in the technology business. It's actually in the entertainment. The Wii Remote on it's own would not have sold unless there was a fun game with it. Wii Sports is successful because it fun and easy to play. Mario Kart Wii was also successful thank to the Wii wheel, making it easy to play, among other things.
Are you even trying to come up with a decent response. I suppose anything beyond pressing one button is too complicated for you.
This is why you should never make games: You can't get into the head of the buyer and what they think.

Here is what you said
two quick controller motions and pressing all three kick buttons at once (or one button on console controllers)
One motion can be hard enough, but now I have to do two successful and press three buttons at once (it sounds easy, but I've had trouble doing that in fighting games). It's not easy at all. It's quite hard. Most players don't want to try and learn that when it's hard enough to get special moves right in a game. In Brawl, FS are done by pressing B. One is successful and the other is not. You can see how important ease of control is.


Do you have an idea as to why?
The question was answered. You just missed it.
 

BEES

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This game was not made SPECIFICALLY for the competitive.

inb4lock.
one could argue it was made specifically against them

Remember, L-canceling was in the demo for Brawl back in 2007. They took it out sometime after Smashboards got a hold of it and figured out how it worked.
 

GreenFox

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I dont think they honestly cared they slapped the **** together put the smash name in and made millions
 

Silent crisis

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I believe they planned It Out To have certain Characters More powerful Then Others In certain area's. But Most characters are pretty even
 

AzureWing

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Nah, I doubt they focused too much about which characters would be in what tier level. I'd imagine they were more concerned with trying to meet deadlines anyway.
 

Dark 3nergy

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Smash Bros is designed as a 4 player fighting game, but competitive player is only two players, and they also remove a lot of the games content. The teir in Smash are created a good deal by bottle necking the game. When looking at characters, they probably looked at it in a 4vs way (this is why Link was nerfed, a was very powerful in 4vs).

The developers probably had no idea who would break though as that was not the focus of development.
I think SmashChu is right on the money as far as them thinking about the characters in a 4 person FFA over 1v1. Totally agree.

But i cant also help but think nerfs in brawl were the result of where characters placed in melee.

Possibly popularity? Maybe they get switched around in terms of priority. Or it could be a way for the developer to get you to play xx characters for this SSB game.

We'll find out alot more about it i think when SSB4 hits shelves in the upcoming 4-6 years
 

shadyf0o

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Read title exactly that. How well do you think the game designers could predict how good they were making what characters. Did they balance it a lot or a little? What do you guys think.
No. When a game becomes competitive, every possible glitch and exploitation is used to gain the upper hand. The ways in which these glitches and exploitations will change the way the game was "meant to be played" are impossible to determine. Unless the game was specifically designed with competitive play in mind (street fighter 4), competitive gamers will always play games in ways the developers had not anticipated.

Example: Before the advent of glide-tossing, Diddy was considered mid-tier (absurd!). Glide-tossing allowed Diddy to connect his banna throws in ways he previously couldn't, thus thrusting him to the high tier position he currently holds.
 

JOE!

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stupid theory forthcoming, that has only a little bit to do with the thread:

Is it just me, or does each Smash's main theme have a bit of influence from the games it's top characters are from?

For example, Melee had the epic trumpet vibe coming from it, which is prevalent in a few Starfox levels...

*shrug*
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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I think that they knew that certain characters would be better in an item sense, not from normal gameplay.

Like look at Pichu's melee trophy description for example
 

_lemons

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It's almost inconceivable to think that they had no idea MK was at least going to be pretty good... I mean they programmed his frame data and whatnot... Just by comparison to the rest of the characters, they would have known, I would think.
 

Llumys

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Meta Knight was meant to be amazing.
Ganondorf was meant to be horrible.
Several characters were supposed to be worse; they achieved their goal regarding a certain few.
 

mars16

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I think the makers thought Fox would be a high tier because of his speed and capability of racking up lots of damage.
 
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