Do you think Melee's metagame will have a larger impact on this game?

[Amiibo Doctor]

Since it seems most people who have this game are very familiar with Melee compared to Brawl, it seems a lot of Melee strategies and tricks are being adapted to Sm4sh. I've noticed a lot of players try to use Fox the way they use him in Melee, almost to the point there I zoned out and felt like I was playing a round of Melee. (I tried to wavedash; it didn't work out.)

Does it feel like this is like Melee, almost?

 

[popsofctown]

Both Melee and Brawl players are enjoying the game.
It has elements of Brawl and it has elements of Melee. Which elements characterize the game more is going to be controversial really.
The game also does a pretty good job of providing characters that feel more like one past game or the other (including 64, DK feels really 64 to me). And there are also some new characters that feel very purely Smash 4.

 

[Spirst]

No, it doesn't feel much like Melee. If anything, the general feel of it is closer to Brawl overall but even then, it has a fair number of differences. As said, there are various elements from each present in this game that makes it a unique title in the series as the others have been before it.

 

[Orngeblu]

it has elements of Melee.

I don't understand why you think it has elements of Melee, it's almost the same as Brawl, not that I'm complaining though, I love the game.

 

[cardboardowl]

Why must these comparisons be made?

New game new meta

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

Why must these comparisons be made?

New game new meta

To articulate a little bit, it feels like the Melee players (because there are more competitive Melee players than there are Brawl) are influencing the metagame with what's familiar to them.

 

[Zebkeet]

I'm going to just wait until the meta evolves.

 

[Tagxy]

People who are confused about why competitive Brawl players are saying it doesnt feel the same to them need to understand that games have many ways a game can feel different and will tend to be more different if that was the game you were more familiar with. For instance in Brawl virtually any time you got a hit off neutral you had to work much harder to achieve your punishes, and there wasnt anything like shine or peach float cancel so the neutral game was a lot tougher and generally had more projectiles and swords to deal with. Most of this is largely absent from smash 4, or rather its a lot different the way it works. But this kind of strays from the original point.

Yeah the game that you came from will influence the styles you see in smash, so its definitely possible that people bring over their styles from another game especially at the beginning.

 

[popsofctown]

I don't understand why you think it has elements of Melee, it's almost the same as Brawl, not that I'm complaining though, I love the game.

Shieldstun duration, hitstun duration, fallspeeds, airdodge nerf.

Really the most melee thing about it to me is that the shield is presented as an imperfect entity in smash 4. Shield pressure was just so non-existent in Brawl.

 

[otter]

I don't understand why you think it has elements of Melee, it's almost the same as Brawl, not that I'm complaining though, I love the game.

For some reason, you're not supposed to say that. people who like brawl and smash 4 somehow get offended if you compare the two.

 

[Tagxy]

For some reason, you're not supposed to say that. people who like brawl and smash 4 somehow get offended if you compare the two.

Its more a matter of having to constantly correct people. The reason is because people whove played Brawl and Smash 4 have an understanding while people who played limited of one or either speak from ignorance. The same would be true of someone with a limited understanding of melee drawing comparisons between melee and another smash game.

This isnt to hate on anyone who thinks one game or another feels the same, people are entitled to opinions.

 

[TheOnlyGBeast]

Its more a matter of having to constantly correct people. The reason is because people whove played Brawl and Smash 4 have an understanding while people who played limited of one or either speak from ignorance. The same would be true of someone with a limited understanding of melee drawing comparisons between melee and another smash game.

This isnt to hate on anyone who thinks one game or another feels the same, people are entitled to opinions.

This right here. I've spent a good bit of time on both Melee and Brawl and I can safely say that while the game is closer to Brawl, in my opinion, you cannot play this game like Brawl.

 

[Uffe]

I feel like this is a game that Brawl should have been. My only gripe with this game is that it still lacks hitstun. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I'm just not feeling it. The last line wasn't intended to be punny.

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

Yeah the game that you came from will influence the styles you see in smash, so its definitely possible that people bring over their styles from another game especially at the beginning.

I like the way you put that, that especially sums up my thoughts.

I feel like this is a game that Brawl should have been.

Every time I play the game, I think this too. Having played Melee for so long, it feels like I'm playing the true Smash Bros. game. Don't get me wrong, Brawl was a great game, but this is a game that the community can chew on (so to speak) for quite a while.

 

[otter]

Its more a matter of having to constantly correct people. The reason is because people whove played Brawl and Smash 4 have an understanding while people who played limited of one or either speak from ignorance. The same would be true of someone with a limited understanding of melee drawing comparisons between melee and another smash game.

This isnt to hate on anyone who thinks one game or another feels the same, people are entitled to opinions.

but it's clearly 90% brawl. people only deny that because they perceive it as an insult, which is a logical failure for brawl players.

 

[Jackson]

but it's clearly 90% brawl. people only deny that because they perceive it as an insult, which is a logical failure for brawl players.

This exactly. It's no Melee. It's just a polished Brawl that allows for a bit more creativity.

 

[Tagxy]

but it's clearly 90% brawl. people only deny that because they perceive it as an insult, which is a logical failure for brawl players.

This is mostly according to players who didnt have much knowledge and/or experience with Brawl in the first place. Of course theres obviously comparisons that can be made which I dont think any reasonable person is denying. Im also not sure who youre talking about in your last sentence, most Brawl players I know enjoy Brawl.

 

[Jackson]

This is mostly according to melee players who didnt have much knowledge or experience with Brawl in the first place. Theres obviously comparisons that can be made which I dont think any reasonable person is denying. Im also not sure who youre talking about, most Brawl players I know enjoy Brawl.

I enjoy Brawl. I also enjoy Melee. This game is obviously more like Brawl, which is not necessarily a bad thing, just that it's slower.

 

[otter]

This is mostly according to players who didnt have much knowledge and/or experience with Brawl in the first place. Of course theres obviously comparisons that can be made which I dont think any reasonable person is denying. Im also not sure who youre talking about in your last sentence, most Brawl players I know enjoy Brawl.

Just strange that people get mad when something is compared to a game they like.

 

[Shaya]

Chimpanzee's are genetically 97% human, but they're pretty different.
Seeing as we're so genetically close, it is bizarre to geneticists that they're incapable of swimming or achieving other human simple actions. It's not all one-sided, for weight to force, a Chimpanzee is like 3x? stronger than an average human being; why are we so fragile?

Brawl was 90% melee, if not higher. Smash 4 is 90% brawl, if not higher. Going by some DNA-logic, I'd say Smash 4 is 98% melee while Brawl is 97% melee, it's not even comparing apples to oranges, but rather jazz and royal gala.

The metas of each game impact on each other. I would say prior to Brawl, the Melee meta had no idea what camping/neutral game was; I'm not joking. Look at where Marth was prior to Brawl (tied #1 with Fox) and see where it went from there; cross overs of players and strategies, new and old players alike in Melee started to realise the potency of patience and neutral game, and since then people have stopped freely running into Marth's grab, they don't approach him in the lead or even while they're losing, they have to fear his down air and forward smash set ups only up until a certain percent, and they're play passively until that's no longer a problem before choosing to go hard as the risk/reward is no longer in Marth's favour at all. "Air Camping" and "Ledge Camping (planking)" were unheard of in Melee but became very popular strategies in Brawl with the likes of Wario and Meta Knight respectively, Hungrybox has developed his jiggs much like you'd expect a Wario to play in Brawl (and it contrasts heavily to how Mango played jiggs prior to Brawl); and let's remind ourselves about how M2K planks Captain Falcon's with sheik's up-b with near-impunity.

Strategies that work in one game are likely to work in the other, maybe not as effectively, but they still do. All the games highlight different facets that result in straying metas which realistically still all converge at the tippity top/highest level possible. Within the past year Melee only players/commentators alike are talking about how "soft hit aerials" are the new meta for getting combos/kills, yet in Brawl where there were no such natural combos [into kills], we had to rely on such things to get true combos the entire time, I sit there in contemplation every time certain things are getting hyped in Melee that were staple mid-level barriers in Brawl.

 

[Raijinken]

If it has any exceptional impact, I think it'll only be because more Melee players are giving Smash4 an honest shot than gave Brawl an honest shot. But as has been said, a new game comes with a new metagame, and the only significant similarity to past games is that it's still a Smash Bros game, with all that entails.

 

[otter]

If have to disagree. The idea that a smash game could be intentionally bad didnt exist when brawl came out. Everyone was ready to play brawl. Now many people are just committed to melee forever.

 

[BombsOnBombs]

I'm playing some of the same characters that I played in Melee because they're comfort picks, but it really doesn't have anything to do with the meta. I'll still pick Marth against anybody who plays floaties because I'm super familiar with those matchups with Marth. I still instantly pick Shiek vs. people with ****ty recoveries because Fair is still unfair.

I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way, but I doubt it has a significant impact on the meta itself. The characters are a lot closer in power level in this game than they were in Melee. I like to compare Sm4sh more to PM than anything.

 

[Piford]

I feel like Melee shouldn't affect the game too much, but it is. People are trying to use to much of melee in both playstyle and logic. I've heard (most extreme example) people saying stages like Town and City should be banned because its too different. People want this game to be melee but its not. Some people are also trying to play it too much like melee and then can't perform well. Then they complain about how the game is too defensive because defense Melee play styles in this game.

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

Y'all make good points. It's getting me thinking.

Do we even really have a metagame yet? True, we've got a big website for the game already, and a lot of people are playing the game, but until there's even just a few tournaments, can there really be a metagame?

 

[Tagxy]

The most relevant way a metagame can be discussed is referring to it as the current metagame. That is the summation of all our data, analysis, knowledge and understanding at any given point in time. It stands to reason that as the game progresses so will the metagame, and later points in time will have a more advanced metagame. So to answer your question more directly I think itd be most accurate to say the metagame exists but is very young.

 

[Roukiske]

I don't think the melee meta can effect this game as hard since the techniques aren't really there. The new tech being discovered is very different, but one thing many competitive melee players bring to the game is their mindset. Spacing, punishing (which is easier), and maximizing your options all carry over.

I shield grab way less often nowadays unless its low %, its all about getting my falcon jab combo out of shield and then setting you up for a bair.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I figured it would be obvious that the Melee meta would impact Smash 4. Melee is generally considered the shining example of competitive Smash and everyone wants to see a new iteration with that same spark. The problem is when people try to force that spark and make the game something it's not, then get mad if/when they fail.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Chimpanzee's are genetically 97% human, but they're pretty different.
Seeing as we're so genetically close, it is bizarre to geneticists that they're incapable of swimming or achieving other human simple actions. It's not all one-sided, for weight to force, a Chimpanzee is like 3x? stronger than an average human being; why are we so fragile?

Brawl was 90% melee, if not higher. Smash 4 is 90% brawl, if not higher. Going by some DNA-logic, I'd say Smash 4 is 98% melee while Brawl is 97% melee, it's not even comparing apples to oranges, but rather jazz and royal gala.

The metas of each game impact on each other. I would say prior to Brawl, the Melee meta had no idea what camping/neutral game was; I'm not joking. Look at where Marth was prior to Brawl (tied #1 with Fox) and see where it went from there; cross overs of players and strategies, new and old players alike in Melee started to realise the potency of patience and neutral game, and since then people have stopped freely running into Marth's grab, they don't approach him in the lead or even while they're losing, they have to fear his down air and forward smash set ups only up until a certain percent, and they're play passively until that's no longer a problem before choosing to go hard as the risk/reward is no longer in Marth's favour at all. "Air Camping" and "Ledge Camping (planking)" were unheard of in Melee but became very popular strategies in Brawl with the likes of Wario and Meta Knight respectively, Hungrybox has developed his jiggs much like you'd expect a Wario to play in Brawl (and it contrasts heavily to how Mango played jiggs prior to Brawl); and let's remind ourselves about how M2K planks Captain Falcon's with sheik's up-b with near-impunity.

Strategies that work in one game are likely to work in the other, maybe not as effectively, but they still do. All the games highlight different facets that result in straying metas which realistically still all converge at the tippity top/highest level possible. Within the past year Melee only players/commentators alike are talking about how "soft hit aerials" are the new meta for getting combos/kills, yet in Brawl where there were no such natural combos [into kills], we had to rely on such things to get true combos the entire time, I sit there in contemplation every time certain things are getting hyped in Melee that were staple mid-level barriers in Brawl.

I agree with most of what you're saying, buuuut...

Things like D-smash set ups only worked in Brawl...on spacies. I mean, I know it's dangerous, but in Melee you needed to tech hits to avoid getting murked. Naturally, players don't want to get hit, y'know, like--don't get hit? The Melee catch phrase. So naturally, players learned to be safe. I mean, you could say something like that about players like Silent Wolf, who would aggressively rush in with Fox and get mollywhopped, but that's not the case anymore. He learned to be safe and successful in his approaches and playing the neutral game a bit. He learned that, but he never played Brawl. So, can you really say Brawl influenced the meta, or was it just tech skill?

Things with spacies like shine grab tend to **** down neutral and defensive options, where you can literally get a free grab if you hit shield and a free shine if you hit them, which still has enough stun to put the opponent in a bad spot. This came from tech skill, and naturally you'll be able to survive more by obtaining this, so if I can do something like tech Marth's Dolphine slash by smash DI'ing into the ground and neutral tech to gain a full punish (twice, lol) then why do I need to respect your neutral game?

I played and loved Brawl and Melee, but I can honestly say I've learned nothing from Brawl, and anything I did learn did not necessarily help me succeed, maybe online did; playing against a lot of people help me influence my mindgames. But my playing foundation is from Melee. It had neutral game, it just made you move more, which is a good thing in my opinion. But as much as I loved Brawl, I don't think having a game being slower really taught me anything. That's just me though.

 

[CE_TheLord]

Well, IMO problem is that this game was way too overhyped with the idea of being like Melee 2.0 And I understand that, prime examples are the first Smash Direct and the E3 trailer of Mii fighters, those two things made the game look like a combo-based game, pretty much like Melee, but Smash 4 is not Melee, nor is Brawl. Smash 4 is its own game, with its own mechanics, Smash 4 is at least more fast-paced than Brawl, that should be a good thing, people is discovering new mechanichs and c'mon guys, this game was released a month ago... How do you expect a full-fleshed and advanced metagame if the game was recently released? There isn't even a tier list!

 

[SuaveChaser]

I don't think melee has any effect on this game due to really doesn't have almost any melee elments at all. It is extremly close to brawl but different.

 

[Zebkeet]

If this game is as close to brawl as you say it is, then everybody would be camping and I would be able to take a **** before I hit the ground. No, i feel this game is 75 Brawl, 25 Melee.

 

[BombsOnBombs]

That's actually a pretty fair assessment. I think after a few patches things will even up a little bit, too. Seems likely they'll move back towards a neutral game again, especially considering the changes they've already made.

 

[Tagxy]

Strategies that work in one game are likely to work in the other, maybe not as effectively, but they still do. All the games highlight different facets that result in straying metas which realistically still all converge at the tippity top/highest level possible. Within the past year Melee only players/commentators alike are talking about how "soft hit aerials" are the new meta for getting combos/kills, yet in Brawl where there were no such natural combos [into kills], we had to rely on such things to get true combos the entire time, I sit there in contemplation every time certain things are getting hyped in Melee that were staple mid-level barriers in Brawl.

Thats a good example. I've jokingly said this before but its actually kind of true, its funny how often common brawl knowledge somehow becomes top level advice in melee commentary.