Do you think anything is "cheap?"

[Rose Monkey]

hai guyz everybody cares about mah opinion! Im obvusly betur cuz I play fair n' dun use cheap tactix.

no johns.

oh you miss the point

i wasn't saying DON'T use the attacks, i was just pointing out that most of you guys don't consider moves cheap, which a lot can be.

see - chain grabs

all the moves are usable, I use them (excluding ***got chain grab)

but to call them not cheap compared to most moves, is sheer stupidity

however, lots of stuff OP mentioned aren't cheap, but a few are.

 

[Puffs]

The fact is, we play DK vs. DDD most of the time, and we split the victories, but he **** talks me when he wins, so I defend myself. Sometimes i bite my tongue for hours, and he just keeps blabbing, so I finally say something then he blabs more. In a competitive tournament chain grabbing is acceptable (unless they ban certain ones). In friendlies, its just gay to sit there doing it all night.

Replace DK vs. DDD with Snake vs Jigglypuff and you have my smash life. My friend makes the General Brawl Discussion look like a pleasant tea party.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

oh you miss the point

i wasn't saying DON'T use the attacks, i was just pointing out that most of you guys don't consider moves cheap, which a lot can be.

see - chain grabs

all the moves are usable, I use them (excluding ***got chain grab)

but to call them not cheap compared to most moves, is sheer stupidity

however, lots of stuff OP mentioned aren't cheap, but a few are.

the thing is, you said that everyone here thought the game was perfect. which is completely wrong. theres a reason some are going back to melee.

and yes, plenty of things in this game are cheap. But you probably already know that they are talking about how everything is fair play in competition.

I think its safe to assume that most people here know they are unbalanced. but there is nothing wrong with using them.

heck even in friendlies I don't really mind getting chaingrabed. why should I?
Most characters capable of chaingrabing are not even close to being considered top tier. what this means to me is that chaingrabing is not even that big of a deal.

 

[mjsdawg]

alright well this thread has helped a lot. I won't respond to what my opponent said earlier because that won't solve anything.

Ultimately, here are my views on "cheapness:"

I think that chaingrabbing with D3 can be prevented from being cheap if the smash community picks the neutral stages wisely. That's how it worked in melee right? Pretty much every stage's neutrality was based on the fact of Fox's Waveshine. Walk-off stages were not neutral and stages with permanent walls weren't either. That was a good way to decide and I think the same solution can be applied to Brawl. Because if you think about it, Fox's Melee Waveshine follows the characteristics of D3's chaingrab exactly. You can move with your OP infinitely across the ground and against a wall. Some characters moved farther than others when shined just like D3's throw also. I don't see how the CG can be banned or considered cheap if Waveshining was perfectly legit. Just pick your neutral stages smartly and problem solved.

I won't get into the standing infinite, that is a bit more complicated but it only works on like 5 characters so I don't think it's fair to ban that either. It's not like wobbling or the IC's freeze glitch that worked on every character. This can actually be avoided by counterpicking your character.

Falco's CG is completely legit in my opinion also because it's % based. You can also DI it.

Even something like Marth's Infinite Down Tilt on a wall, laser locking, etc. I think should be legal. It all goes back to the smash community choosing the neutral stages wisely.

In response to some of your posts:

When we play friendlies, it's usually a tournament with our group of 4 or 5 friends. I don't think it's right that I not infinite against a wall for an easy kill and risk losing the match and not advancing. You could argue but friendlies are played for fun. True, but how much fun do you have losing the first match and sitting out and watching until the next tournament? If it were just 1v1's I totally agree and have decided to not do it. In tournament play though, I don't think anything should be considered cheap as of yet; IC's may have something coming their way with the infinite back and forth throw on any level on any character. Unless someone can provide a counter it of course.)

I'd like to change this thread now from my personal issue to just "cheapness" in general. We can discuss as a community here what legal and illegal maneuvers should be for tournament play and why you feel it should be that way. I've posted my ideas on questionable maneuvers. Any ideas and responses are welcome.

-mjsdawg

 

[Marie_54]

Final Smashes...

Seriously 3 Landmastahs?

Whoever gets the most balls out of luck mostly is the winner, it really annoys me.

 

[WITH]

cheapness is a move requiring no skill but gives giant benefits (see chaingrabbing).
in melee people actually had to work hard to get good at waveshining, and had to have great reflexes for chain grabbing. In brawl, you get a free 60% (or KO) just from grabbing, case closed, non counterable. All you have to do is time a dash. Thats bull.

 

[Canadianpimp]

I also play with the OP and "with" in our casual games. My view is this, and I think is honestly the best definition of "cheap." Before I start, mjsdawg, you are a huge f@g for bringing this dumb sh*t online looking for sympathy and "proof."

For something be cheap in Smash, it must do something that takes the mindgames out of the equation. D3's chaingrab and basically any infinite is cheap because it is impossible to counter with mindgames. Period. The IC's freeze glitch in Melee was cheap because it took the mindgames out of the game when it was use.

There has to be a distinction between "cheapness" and "overpowered." Take Fox's shine in Melee for example. It was one of the few moves in the game that could kill at very low percents and was hard to punish. Relatively speaking, it was one of the best moves in the game and arguably was "overpowered."One can make the case for other relatively strong moves.

Other things mentioned like Lucario's priority, D-air, Wolf's F-smash, etc. aren't cheap, but I suppose you could label them "overpowered" or just "good moves." You, as the opponent, have the option to attempt to use mindgames on your opponent and punish those consequences of the failed move. Characters are going to have good and bad attributes about them. And in general, characters that have the most and best good, but not cheap moves, should be the highest on the tier list. There's no shame in using these good moves, because you are simply just gimping your potential by not using the best moves. A Fox in Melee that didn't shine or a Falco that didn't ShL would not be playing the character to the potential.

You have to draw a line though, and that line comes when doing something so mindgames can NEVER change the outcome of the combo doesn't feel right. Mindgames are probably the biggest determining factor between players, not technical skill (although in most cases, a player with better technical skill will also have better mindgames). If you take mindgames out of the game by chaingrabbing, you're basically reducing the game to a simple rendition of button-pressing patterns. That's not Smash, nor is it fun.

There's a definite distinction between a move/combo that is cheap, and one that is good. And in our friendlies where literally nothing is on the line but sitting out for one match, there's no need to cross that line...ever.

 

[Sliq]

I also play with the OP and "with" in our casual games. My view is this, and I think is honestly the best definition of "cheap." Before I start, mjsdawg, you are a huge f@g for bringing this dumb sh*t online looking for sympathy and "proof."

For something be cheap in Smash, it must do something that takes the mindgames out of the equation. D3's chaingrab and basically any infinite is cheap because it is impossible to counter with mindgames. Period. The IC's freeze glitch in Melee was cheap because it took the mindgames out of the game when it was use.

There has to be a distinction between "cheapness" and "overpowered." Take Fox's shine in Melee for example. It was one of the few moves in the game that could kill at very low percents and was hard to punish. Relatively speaking, it was one of the best moves in the game and arguably was "overpowered."One can make the case for other relatively strong moves.

Other things mentioned like Lucario's priority, D-air, Wolf's F-smash, etc. aren't cheap, but I suppose you could label them "overpowered" or just "good moves." You, as the opponent, have the option to attempt to use mindgames on your opponent and punish those consequences of the failed move. Characters are going to have good and bad attributes about them. And in general, characters that have the most and best good, but not cheap moves, should be the highest on the tier list. There's no shame in using these good moves, because you are simply just gimping your potential by not using the best moves. A Fox in Melee that didn't shine or a Falco that didn't ShL would not be playing the character to the potential.

You have to draw a line though, and that line comes when doing something so mindgames can NEVER change the outcome of the combo doesn't feel right. Mindgames are probably the biggest determining factor between players, not technical skill (although in most cases, a player with better technical skill will also have better mindgames). If you take mindgames out of the game by chaingrabbing, you're basically reducing the game to a simple rendition of button-pressing patterns. That's not Smash, nor is it fun.

There's a definite distinction between a move/combo that is cheap, and one that is good. And in our friendlies where literally nothing is on the line but sitting out for one match, there's no need to cross that line...ever.

O shi! The **** has hit the fan.

Awesome.

 

[trampoline BOY]

I have complaints from friends saying that Diddy Kong's run and A roll is cheap. "There's no lag time at all, he can go right into a smash attack afterwards. That's BS"

I just laugh and tell them to practice more.

 

[fly666monkey]

Cruel Brawl.

need i say more?

 

[mjsdawg]

I also play with the OP and "with" in our casual games. My view is this, and I think is honestly the best definition of "cheap." Before I start, mjsdawg, you are a huge f@g for bringing this dumb sh*t online looking for sympathy and "proof."

For something be cheap in Smash, it must do something that takes the mindgames out of the equation. D3's chaingrab and basically any infinite is cheap because it is impossible to counter with mindgames. Period. The IC's freeze glitch in Melee was cheap because it took the mindgames out of the game when it was use.

There has to be a distinction between "cheapness" and "overpowered." Take Fox's shine in Melee for example. It was one of the few moves in the game that could kill at very low percents and was hard to punish. Relatively speaking, it was one of the best moves in the game and arguably was "overpowered."One can make the case for other relatively strong moves.

Other things mentioned like Lucario's priority, D-air, Wolf's F-smash, etc. aren't cheap, but I suppose you could label them "overpowered" or just "good moves." You, as the opponent, have the option to attempt to use mindgames on your opponent and punish those consequences of the failed move. Characters are going to have good and bad attributes about them. And in general, characters that have the most and best good, but not cheap moves, should be the highest on the tier list. There's no shame in using these good moves, because you are simply just gimping your potential by not using the best moves. A Fox in Melee that didn't shine or a Falco that didn't ShL would not be playing the character to the potential.

You have to draw a line though, and that line comes when doing something so mindgames can NEVER change the outcome of the combo doesn't feel right. Mindgames are probably the biggest determining factor between players, not technical skill (although in most cases, a player with better technical skill will also have better mindgames). If you take mindgames out of the game by chaingrabbing, you're basically reducing the game to a simple rendition of button-pressing patterns. That's not Smash, nor is it fun.

There's a definite distinction between a move/combo that is cheap, and one that is good. And in our friendlies where literally nothing is on the line but sitting out for one match, there's no need to cross that line...ever.

First of all, the point of the thread was to get an answer to the question of if anything was cheap or not and to what level. Nobody's looking for sympathy.

Second of all, I like your definition and think it is very accurate. Like I said earlier though, in Melee, waveshining wasn't banned. A Fox could waveshine many characters across the stage and infinitely against a wall without the opponent being able to mindgames out of it. So how was this move not considered cheap? The reason is because the smash community simply picked neutral stages that would not give Fox the opportunity to waveshine a character off the side or infinitely against a wall. I think that the same solution can be applied to Brawl. Pick the neutral stages so that D3 won't have his infinites or walk-offs, but will still be allowed to play to his full potential.

As for friendlies, I think players should once again, chose their neutral stages carefully so as to not bring up the problem of infinites or walk-offs. If an opponent agrees to a stage being set as neutral in a friendly and then gets chained off the edge or against a wall for an easy kill, it will be their own fault, especially if they had the option of turning off those stages AND being able to pick a character who can't get chain grabbed.

 

[Pseudoshot]

I play to win.
And snake's just too flipping broken cause i can 3 stock my friends, 2 stock consistantly.
maybe my friends just suck at brawl lol.

 

[Sosuke]

Ness Up-B.
Cheapest thing ever.

 

[bioniclekid8]

one word.....

falco lazer lock and D3 chain grab

 

[Canadianpimp]

one word.....

falco lazer lock and D3 chain grab

One word indeed.

 

[Spital]

Im pretty much in the same boat, I play Falco, my friends claim that I am cheap (I do not chain grab them) but the laser just drives them mad. But of course they play: Snake, Meta Knight, Olimar, and Marth. I think you friends are like mine and everyone is broken but themselves.

 

[WITH]

only he does chaingrab and refuses to play on stages without walls or walkoff edges

 

[mjsdawg]

Alright well the part about the friendlies is over now. I was just providing background information and needed to know up to what level the game should be played to in friendlies and I think I have a good answer. Feel free to discuss the issue of "cheap" things about the game in and of itself now. Maybe this thread can settle the debate of if any maneuvers should be banned or not.

I would like this thread to be purely based on that subject from now on and will be editing my original post so that it follows this only.

Also, try to intelligently debate about things. Don't just post "Marth's Tipper so cheap!!!" Instead, try reading what the few people before you have stated and respond accordingly.

I'll start it off. Regarding chain grabbing, infinites, and laser/jab locks, (I've already said this before but), if the smash community choses the neutral stages wisely then those won't be a problem, because all the walk-off stages and walled stages will be taken out. This makes counter-picking much more important and a valuable skill to have. Post any responses. Remember everyone, friendly debate and reasonable debate too. We are trying to decide a major part of the game here.

-mjsdawg

 

[Melee1]

I personaly dont like metaknights and Snakes. I think you know why.

 

[Messiano]

Nothing is cheap. Winning is all that matters.

Short Sweet to the point, if their is money on the line I'm sure you would tilt or CG your heart away

 

[Devil7]

Short Sweet to the point, if their is money on the line I'm sure you would tilt or CG your heart away

Amen brother, now lets see if we can get all the other scrubs to agree

 

[Kraut]

It seems i find "friend" drama queens arguing over smashboards very entertaing

NEED MOAR

 

[mjsdawg]

bump? (read the edited OP, I want some more thoughts on this subject)

 

[masterspeaks]

The OP is writing about me, and he is honestly exaggerating to make himself feel better. First of all, we are far from pro. I play smash for fun (isnt that what its for). And quite frankly, it puts me in a sour mood that every time we play friendlies, he plays 1 character the whole night and repeatedly chain grabs me for hours unless i pick metaknight and own him.

The fact is, we play DK vs. DDD most of the time, and we split the victories, but he **** talks me when he wins, so I defend myself. Sometimes i bite my tongue for hours, and he just keeps blabbing, so I finally say something then he blabs more. In a competitive tournament chain grabbing is acceptable (unless they ban certain ones). In friendlies, its just gay to sit there doing it all night.

Also, in melee chain grabs took skill and the other person at least had SOME chance of mindgamesing with DI to get out. In brawl the chaingrabs are absurdly easy (aside from IC's). It is stupid that chaingrabbing which requires no skill should restrict me to only playing a couple counter characters.

So, just had to put that out there.

Sounds like you are mistaking Brawl for a good game. Pretty much everyone who is decent agrees that Brawl sucks if you are trying to have fun and win at the same time. If you want a game that is balanced and has mindgames go back to playing melee, I have.

Now in regards to you having to counter pick, thats just being a whiner on your part. If my best friend plays Shiek and I main bowser, odds are I'm gonna get my *** handed to me. If my friend has the most fun playing Shiek why should he have to play a different character. Clearly it is not a problem for him that my bowser is an easy matchup. So it is up to me to decide whether I keep whining about losing or pick a better character.

Talking **** is the right of the winner. If you don't win, tough luck, no one cares what losers have to say .

 

[The Real Inferno]

I don't usually have much to say around here but I have actually been talking with people about what should be banned for an upcoming event I'm working on. I usually don't have much of a problem with "cheap" moves until they seem to be game breaking.

So some things that are "cheap" that have been brought up to me to be banned are:
Snake Sliding
Falco's Chain grab
Dedede's Chain Grab
Infinite Down tilts
Anything requiring a custom control scheme

I've actually attended a couple of tournaments now that ban Snake entirely because of his slide. I have to agree that the move is not natural and should be considered a glitch and thus banned, though I would definitely not ban the character himself as that's just ******** in my opinion.

Falco's chain grab from watching several matched of him seem to be a guarenteed 0-45% on most characters. The same goes for Dedede who has the added benefit of a KO on walk off stages. While this is obviously cheap, it's quite a natural thing to pull off and so nobody should ever be faulted for doing it.

Infinite Down tilts are lame, but I suggest just...not getting caught if you can. And you have to admit it's funny to what G&W do it to Fox. It just is. Anyway I'm kind of rambling on here, but I think thats my basic opinion on things. My general opinion is: "If my friends would punch me in the face for doing this to them it is cheap"

 

[ZSSamus]

Snake is cheap. Honestly the most unbalanced character I've seen or used for that matter.

His 3 hit melee combo deals about 20% damage with a ton of knockback, not to mention his dash move is essentially a smash move. He has more speed than most characters and more power. His Up+B is the most flawed. After using it he can still attack, or if he's hit after using it he can use it again, and that's a ***** because his Up+B requires hardly any skill or timing. He's another camping character as well. Camp with RPG's and a mine and it's usually a good combo.

 

[mjsdawg]

I don't usually have much to say around here but I have actually been talking with people about what should be banned for an upcoming event I'm working on. I usually don't have much of a problem with "cheap" moves until they seem to be game breaking.

So some things that are "cheap" that have been brought up to me to be banned are:
Snake Sliding
Falco's Chain grab
Dedede's Chain Grab
Infinite Down tilts
Anything requiring a custom control scheme

I've actually attended a couple of tournaments now that ban Snake entirely because of his slide. I have to agree that the move is not natural and should be considered a glitch and thus banned, though I would definitely not ban the character himself as that's just ******** in my opinion.

Falco's chain grab from watching several matched of him seem to be a guarenteed 0-45% on most characters. The same goes for Dedede who has the added benefit of a KO on walk off stages. While this is obviously cheap, it's quite a natural thing to pull off and so nobody should ever be faulted for doing it.

Infinite Down tilts are lame, but I suggest just...not getting caught if you can. And you have to admit it's funny to what G&W do it to Fox. It just is. Anyway I'm kind of rambling on here, but I think thats my basic opinion on things. My general opinion is: "If my friends would punch me in the face for doing this to them it is cheap"

Right off the bat I think that banning the custom control schemes and Snake's slide is completely ridiculous. (I agree that banning the whole character is plain ********) The custom control scheme isn't really an issue and the slide really isn't broken. I don't see a problem in letting people set up the most comfortable combinations for their buttons. Would it be any different if the game had had a variety of options for controller settings to chose from since Smash 64?

If the majority of the people in your tournament support banning the infinites I think it would be alright. I'm a bit iffy about banning the chain grabs though. I think they should be allowed if you set your neutral stages to those which have no walk-offs or walls. Here's a good neutral stage list in my opinion.

Final D
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium
(Halberd Optional)

I know Pokemon Stadium has walls but it's only for 2 parts of the 5. Also if there is a chain-grabber present the opponent will most likely just wait for the stage to revert back to the neutral setting so you don't really have to worry about the infinite grabs. Overall it seems like we are on the same page though regarding ban-able maneuvers.

Just out of curiosity, what is the thing G&W does to Fox? =O..

Snake is cheap. Honestly the most unbalanced character I've seen or used for that matter.

His 3 hit melee combo deals about 20% damage with a ton of knockback, not to mention his dash move is essentially a smash move. He has more speed than most characters and more power. His Up+B is the most flawed. After using it he can still attack, or if he's hit after using it he can use it again, and that's a ***** because his Up+B requires hardly any skill or timing. He's another camping character as well. Camp with RPG's and a mine and it's usually a good combo.

I agree that Snake has some very good knockback/priority and just overall strengths but I wouldn't call them cheap. The tilt and neutral A combos are extremely good but I don't think they are "cheap." You can shield them and punish after (especially the 2nd A tilt.) I guess the dash dance is still decent, try mind games-ing that in? DI-ing your aerials to retreat can also be good and avoid getting combo-ed.

The Up+B is definitely not flawed. It's one of my favorite moves to edge-guard because it is so predictable and Snake is completely helpless in it. One thing I've noticed is that I think that his super armor activating is dependent on two things. Snake's percentage and the strength of the attack he is getting hit with. If his percentage is high it will be easier to get him out of the cypher. If your attack is also strong it helps. The super armor might work differently but it just seems to me that's how it goes.

And yeah he's an excellent ranged character but only at a very far range. It's not like Falco or Pit where you can be shooting instantly at any range. The Nikita has huge lag and he can't use his own grenades close-by unless he does the shield explosion. The mines are also kind of easy to avoid. All they really do is prevent camping and keep the play away from that area. Let me know what you think.

-mjsdawg

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

I have one:

HA-YA-YA-YA-YA!!!!

Though I could probably adapt to it in 1v1.

 

[mjsdawg]

I have one:

HA-YA-YA-YA-YA!!!!

Though I could probably adapt to it in 1v1.

Yes I used to think this move was the most broken thing in the game. It reflects anything, cancels out almost any attack that hit's it, lasts forever and comes out nearly instantly. However, I guess it has pretty high ending lag. A quick aerial or a well spaced roll behind your opponent is a good bet. Characters like Link/TL/Peach/D3 could also try throwing their projectiles over it.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

Yes I used to think this move was the most broken thing in the game. It reflects anything, cancels out almost any attack that hit's it, lasts forever and comes out nearly instantly. However, I guess it has pretty high ending lag. A quick aerial or a well spaced roll behind your opponent is a good bet. Characters like Link/TL/Peach/D3 could also try throwing their projectiles over it.

I personally think that the developers made the wrong move by making it reflect everything, on top of Mirror Shield. It would be considerably better otherwise, but give me enough time and I'm sure I'll find a way to work around it.

I mean it's not quite so bad: Friend of mine uses it all the time because he claims that's the "only real good part of his moveset" and he doesn't consistently win. It's just that you'd think such an exploitable move deserves to be punished so badly.

 

[hectichobo]

lucario/sheik with the infinite wall jumping ( i love it)

&& if we had items on.... the gay unstopable fan.... -.- u just keep hitting until 999%

 

[ZSSamus]

Right off the bat I think that banning the custom control schemes and Snake's slide is completely ridiculous. (I agree that banning the whole character is plain ********) The custom control scheme isn't really an issue and the slide really isn't broken. I don't see a problem in letting people set up the most comfortable combinations for their buttons. Would it be any different if the game had had a variety of options for controller settings to chose from since Smash 64?

If the majority of the people in your tournament support banning the infinites I think it would be alright. I'm a bit iffy about banning the chain grabs though. I think they should be allowed if you set your neutral stages to those which have no walk-offs or walls. Here's a good neutral stage list in my opinion.

Final D
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium
(Halberd Optional)

I know Pokemon Stadium has walls but it's only for 2 parts of the 5. Also if there is a chain-grabber present the opponent will most likely just wait for the stage to revert back to the neutral setting so you don't really have to worry about the infinite grabs. Overall it seems like we are on the same page though regarding ban-able maneuvers.

Just out of curiosity, what is the thing G&W does to Fox? =O..




I agree that Snake has some very good knockback/priority and just overall strengths but I wouldn't call them cheap. The tilt and neutral A combos are extremely good but I don't think they are "cheap." You can shield them and punish after (especially the 2nd A tilt.) I guess the dash dance is still decent, try mind games-ing that in? DI-ing your aerials to retreat can also be good and avoid getting combo-ed.

The Up+B is definitely not flawed. It's one of my favorite moves to edge-guard because it is so predictable and Snake is completely helpless in it. One thing I've noticed is that I think that his super armor activating is dependent on two things. Snake's percentage and the strength of the attack he is getting hit with. If his percentage is high it will be easier to get him out of the cypher. If your attack is also strong it helps. The super armor might work differently but it just seems to me that's how it goes.

And yeah he's an excellent ranged character but only at a very far range. It's not like Falco or Pit where you can be shooting instantly at any range. The Nikita has huge lag and he can't use his own grenades close-by unless he does the shield explosion. The mines are also kind of easy to avoid. All they really do is prevent camping and keep the play away from that area. Let me know what you think.

-mjsdawg

True about his Up+B, but I've seen most of the time he rarely needs the edge. :\ The thing about his jabs are that they can KO a character in 100% or around that area. I realize that's a lot of damage but still. I dunno, it's that most of my friends I play with all use Snake, and we usually play 4-man FFA and I main ZSS and Toon Link. I guess I wouldn't call his moves 100% cheap, but they can be an annoyance.

 

[Yeniths]

lasorlock is cheap! >_<

 

[ZSSamus]

Laserlock?

 

[WITH]

Sounds like you are mistaking Brawl for a good game. Pretty much everyone who is decent agrees that Brawl sucks if you are trying to have fun and win at the same time. If you want a game that is balanced and has mindgames go back to playing melee, I have.

Now in regards to you having to counter pick, thats just being a whiner on your part. If my best friend plays Shiek and I main bowser, odds are I'm gonna get my *** handed to me. If my friend has the most fun playing Shiek why should he have to play a different character. Clearly it is not a problem for him that my bowser is an easy matchup. So it is up to me to decide whether I keep whining about losing or pick a better character.

Talking **** is the right of the winner. If you don't win, tough luck, no one cares what losers have to say .

I did play bowser a bit in melee and while the sheik matchup sucked, its nothing compared to the worse brawl matchups. And you are trying to make it way more simple than it is by just saying "counterpicking". Sheik vs. Bowser sucked, but it was winnable...DDD vs over half the characters is a worse matchup than that, and against 5 it is UNWINNABLE.

 

[FalconPunch]

I think the shield is pretty cheap

 

[gorgon.]

I don't find anything cheap. That's scrub mentality. "Cheap" is a John. But there is such a thing as overpowered. Snake is one such example.

 

[MadeInChina]

hahaha i love this thread.

 

[masterspeaks]

I did play bowser a bit in melee and while the sheik matchup sucked, its nothing compared to the worse brawl matchups. And you are trying to make it way more simple than it is by just saying "counterpicking". Sheik vs. Bowser sucked, but it was winnable...DDD vs over half the characters is a worse matchup than that, and against 5 it is UNWINNABLE.

I'm not arguing about that, I don't think anyone has said Brawl was a balanced game. But isn't it common sense that if a matchup is 'UNWINNABLE', as you say. Why the hell would you keep playing that character unless you had no problem losing? Which is clearly not the case in relation to the OP. My example of shiek vs. bowser was in my case an unwinnable match because my friend's shiek was very good. However, I was playing bowser for the fun of d-throwing and saying she was 'gonna get *****'

 

[MadeInChina]

i don't think WITH had a problem with losing to crappy matchups; i think he had a problem losing to CHEAP strategies that was executed by the OP.

very different.