Do Not Camp With Fireballs

[Matador]

Unless you KNOW that you can get away with it. Doing it vs D3 will get you grabbed EVERY time. Vs Snake will get you Utilted. Vs Ganon will get you murder choked -> tech chased.

Powershielding fireballs gives the opponent the advantage. The wind-down on it, especially grounded, is far too easy to punish. The best utilization for fireballs is to approach and space since you can follow right behind them at any given time. If they powershield it then, you still have a chance to get in your grab or spaced Fsmash before they put down their shield and have time to hit you.

Exhibit A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEfGB-VUzms&feature=player_profilepage

Fireballs' strength is that you force your opponent and react, and if you're right behind it, you can punish whatever action that is. It's like playing doubles with your partner in front of you and you're always in position to punish whatever the opponent does to him. They work for camping if your opponent doesn't powershield like he should, but I wouldn't do it...ever.

 

[BSP]

hmm, i guess fireballs are a lot better online

 

[Matador]

hmm, i guess fireballs are a lot better online

They are, and thanks for bringing that up.

CAMP with fireballs online. They WORK there. Do it and increase your self esteem with easy wins.

Just don't do it offline. For that reason, I think Mario CAN be better online than offline in certain matchups, contrary to popular belief.

Inb4heresy.

 

[JUDGE]

i dunno matador....
i see the sense of what you want to say but still
how d'you want to fight without fireball camp?
i won't stop throwing them on d3 and snake even if i know that i will get hardly punished....
so.....how should we fight then?

 

[Matador]

i dunno matador....
i see the sense of what you want to say but still
how d'you want to fight without fireball camp?
i won't stop throwing them on d3 and snake even if i know that i will get hardly punished....
so.....how should we fight then?

If you're spacing correctly with them, then by all means abuse them. Just know where your safety zone is and where you'll remain safe if your fireballs ARE powershielded. Notice in the video I linked how Boss would space his fireballs, Korn would powershield, then get a grab in before Boss was able to react again. Imagine if Korn was using the infinite....

If you want to fireball, I'm saying that you need to be safe. You don't NEED to camp to win. If you must, Mario's spacing game with Bair, cape, Fludd and Fsmash are all pretty darn good, and fireballs CAN still be used for mixing things up n such. They should mainly only be used for spacing and approaching though. Hell, I've beaten D3 and definitely Snake players without fireball camping, even if they're using the infinite. Just use your other tools.

I hear how often you guys suggest camping and it makes me wonder if you're becoming too comfortable fighting players that just don't powershield. It's misleading to win using clearly beatable tactics, and sets you up for later matches where your seemingly unbeatable strategies are now being thwarted with ease.

 

[ThatGuy]

100% correct. I've been saying this for months.

 

[JUDGE]

If you're spacing correctly with them, then by all means abuse them. Just know where your safety zone is and where you'll remain safe if your fireballs ARE powershielded. Notice in the video I linked how Boss would space his fireballs, Korn would powershield, then get a grab in before Boss was able to react again. Imagine if Korn was using the infinite....

If you want to fireball, I'm saying that you need to be safe. You don't NEED to camp to win. If you must, Mario's spacing game with Bair, cape, Fludd and Fsmash are all pretty darn good, and fireballs CAN still be used for mixing things up n such. They should mainly only be used for spacing and approaching though. Hell, I've beaten D3 and definitely Snake players without fireball camping, even if they're using the infinite. Just use your other tools.

I hear how often you guys suggest camping and it makes me wonder if you're becoming too comfortable fighting players that just don't powershield. It's misleading to win using clearly beatable tactics, and sets you up for later matches where your seemingly unbeatable strategies are now being thwarted with ease.

hmmm...i think you're right^^
it was just like: HELL DON'T ABUSE YOUR FIREBALLS FOR SPACING/CAMPING THERE ARE HORRIBLE
and i was like wtf?
but yeah, pretty bull**** when your opponent PS them

 

[Flameleon]

-Keep 2 Fireballs close to each of them, that way, it's harder to pshield, use Full jumps to evade punish, etc...be creative, most Marios are skilled in close combat, using normal attacks but only a few know how to use Fireballs properly-

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

What Matador is saying is... camp smart.

 

[Matador]

-Keep 2 Fireballs close to each of them, that way, it's harder to pshield, use Full jumps to evade punish, etc...be creative, most Marios are skilled in close combat, using normal attacks but only a few know how to use Fireballs properly-

What Matador is saying is... camp smart.

These are on point. If you're going to try and camp with fireballs, be prepared for the powershield and every consequence for it. However...it's usually not even worth it to try.

Outside of that use, Fireballs are actually amazing projectiles. Spacing, approaching, and even comboing into Fsmash.

Yes, it's more than possible. It's reliable if you set it up correctly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fireballs are decent camp tools. Not everyone powershields them exactly 100% of the time, and I don't think they can be powershielded if their shield is worn down enough. Fullhop them so that you aren't in range to be punished while you camp.

Otherwise yeah, you got the point Matador.

 

[fromundaman]

Just gonna throw this out there:
B-reversed Fireballs are amazing.

That being said, this was a useful thread, and I get what you're saying. Brings up a good point. I think I might have been getting a bit too comfortable with my fireballs.

 

[CRASHiC]

Can I camp with cape?

 

[hippiedude92]

I camp with cape alot lol.

i noticed this too, trust me, those who just STAND IN PLACE and just PS your fireballs, and your doing approaching fireballs, you can throw out a Nair/dair crossup and not get punished unless ur gay characters like MK or some ****.

i like aggressive camping though

 

[Matador]

Fireballs are decent camp tools. Not everyone powershields them exactly 100% of the time, and I don't think they can be powershielded if their shield is worn down enough. Fullhop them so that you aren't in range to be punished while you camp.

Otherwise yeah, you got the point Matador.

True, nobody does anything 100% of the time...but if you run into someone who does it often enough for it to become a problem...don't camp with your fireballs. It's just way too risky.

And I know it's reckless, but when I find that an opponent's shield is low, I run in; guns blazing. SH dairs, down angled Ftilts, spaced Fsmashes, Capejump -> Bair...the whole shabang. I try to force them to use it until they feel the need to run. I never chase though, not unless I'm fighting a campy Snake or a ZSS in general.

I don't want to be caught above someone. Ever. Not unless they have a frame disadvantage, or I gain some sort of odd advantage from being higher. It's just rarely a good position: weaker defense, and non-existent offense.

Can I camp with cape?

I actually do this all the time, lol.

i noticed this too, trust me, those who just STAND IN PLACE and just PS your fireballs, and your doing approaching fireballs, you can throw out a Nair/dair crossup and not get punished unless ur gay characters like MK or some ****.

DSMASH DSMASH DSMASH!

i like aggressive camping though

Same. I sort of combine spacing and camping to maintain pressure but remain relatively safe/ready for retreat if I need it.

 

[fromundaman]

I don't want to be caught above someone. Ever. Not unless they have a frame disadvantage, or I gain some sort of odd advantage from being higher. It's just rarely a good position: weaker defense, and non-existent offense.

I agree with the sentiment, but we do have an offensive move for that position. If I remember correctly, UpB has a hitbox below Mario on startup.

 

[hippiedude92]

Yea but it's a gamble if you whiff it, then your toast lol.

 

[fromundaman]

Very true. That's always true of UpB though.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I agree with the sentiment, but we do have an offensive move for that position. If I remember correctly, UpB has a hitbox below Mario on startup.

I love that UpB hitbox. It's the BEST!

 

[hippiedude92]

With your fireball you can,

SH fireball
FH fireball
FH breversal fireball
SH breversal fireball
double jump fireball

and bunch more options which im lazy to list. wow mario's beast lol.

 

[fromundaman]

Speaking of fireball mixups...

On BF, run off the platforms and B-reverse a fireball the moment you leave the platform. It looks as though you fall through the platform with a B-reverse fireball. I like it as a mixup, and it combos really well into throws and such.
It works on other platform stages. I just prefer BF for it since the platforms are just the right height for following up the fireball.

For maximum mixups/Style points (More the latter than the former), cape glide from one platform to the other, keep running off the edge, and B-reverse a fireball as you walk off that platform.

 

[BoTastic!]

Boss was doing ok at 2:01 and 2:17-2:20. He was actually doing fine that match, he just did ******** things like using sh fireballs when DDD was 2 inches away. You can still camp with fireballs.. you gotta do it right.

 

[Inferno3044]

Boss was doing ok at 2:01 and 2:17-2:20. He was actually doing fine that match, he just did ******** things like using sh fireballs when DDD was 2 inches away. You can still camp with fireballs.. you gotta do it right.

Can you show me how to camp with fireballs correctly?

 

[Matador]

Boss was doing ok at 2:01 and 2:17-2:20. He was actually doing fine that match, he just did ******** things like using sh fireballs when DDD was 2 inches away. You can still camp with fireballs.. you gotta do it right.

Yeah, but if Korn had PS'd any of the fireballs that hit him, Boss would've been at a disadvantage. That's the only point I'm trying to make. Putting yourself in that position where you need to rely on your opponent's inability to react or you eat damage is a pretty risky tactic.

It DOES work sometimes though. Sort of how some strategies work online that don't work offline; some strategies work against players that can't powershield on reaction and don't work against players that powershield faithfully.

If you've got room, where they can powershield and you won't be touched...by all means, go for it. In that match though, Korn was approaching the majority of the match and didn't allow him that room. If he was infiniting, or if that were Falco, there'd be game-breaking problems.

 

[BoTastic!]

Boss was way too close.... thats what I'm trying to say...

PS means crap if he's too far away.

 

[Matador]

But SMBZ 8 is out now, so it hardly matters anyway.

 

[A2ZOMG]

WTF?!!??!! It is?!

Why didn't anyone tell me sooner?

 

[Matador]

Get on AIM, I need someone to geek out with!

Edit: Srsly, nao pl0x

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I'm on aim D:

 

[Javon89]

Lol thats my favourite flash, I watched the newest one the other day, it was 'effing sick!
On topic: Yea, I'm going with Matador on this one, the fireball camping seems played out since everyone knows how to PS or slash in Marth and Ike's case (sorry if I'm missing something) and can put yourself in bad situations, but good spacing can always be a good alternative, although that can be shield grabbed.
Just mix up your game keep it fresh, that way your opponent can't predict and punish.

 

[BoTastic!]

I seen it the day it came out

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I think we're not giving camping enough credit. OBVIOUSLY you should'nt be camping when they're right next to you, but I don't think there's anything wrong with camping to force an approach, that's usually what I do (although I have gone overboard sometimes...) Unless of course your not going to be forcing an approach, then you just get in there and ****.

EDIT: Also, new SMBZ is ****.

 

[Javon89]

So should we use at a long range and I think camping is a good strategy cause it can sometimes throw your opponent off their game cause of half the time their dodging and PS'ing and it's a great setup for grabs since they don't travel fast so us Mario's can catch up with them, I think it's just not a great one.

 

[Matador]

I seen it the day it came out

I bet you did...you and Alvin Earthworm bein BFF's n such...

I think we're not giving camping enough credit. OBVIOUSLY you should'nt be camping when they're right next to you, but I don't think there's anything wrong with camping to force an approach, that's usually what I do (although I have gone overboard sometimes...) Unless of course your not going to be forcing an approach, then you just get in there and ****.

EDIT: Also, new SMBZ is ****.

So should we use at a long range and I think camping is a good strategy cause it can sometimes throw your opponent off their game cause of half the time their dodging and PS'ing and it's a great setup for grabs since they don't travel fast so us Mario's can catch up with them, I think it's just not a great one.

Don't misunderstand, I've come to the recent realization that camping is fantastic. It's what moves this and every other competitive fighting game, and still requires a fair bit of prediction and skill.

However, the point of camping is to attack while remaining as safe as possible from retaliation. If your camping strategy is unsafe, then you're giving your opponent free damage. The idea behind this thread is to keep Marios from dying to a faulty strategy.

If you maintain safe camping, then go ahead and pitch a tent. Just don't get burned by your own fireballs.

 

[Inferno3044]

Don't misunderstand, I've come to the recent realization that camping is fantastic. It's what moves this and every other competitive fighting game, and still requires a fair bit of prediction and skill.

However, the point of camping is to attack while remaining as safe as possible from retaliation. If your camping strategy is unsafe, then you're giving your opponent free damage. The idea behind this thread is to keep Marios from dying to a faulty strategy.

If you maintain safe camping, then go ahead and pitch a tent. Just don't get burned by your own fireballs.

THAT is what i really gotta work on. I overdo camping. I need to find a middle ground.

 

[Javon89]

OHHHH!!!! I get it now (sorry I'm still a scrub *sigh*) so we shouldn't camp if it looks like it'll place us in a bad situation like a CG, or Combo and maybe a KO?

 

[BoTastic!]

Yea. Like camping when snake is in Ftilt range. Thats just dumb. There are bad players, then there's dumb players.