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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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SKX31

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All right, I know I'm a bit late on this (the day began just as I was sound asleep), but still:

:ultkazuya: . The Iron Fist of Darkness. Overshadowed by both his father and son in the speculation scene. Broke the Mii costume rule.

Heat. Haze. Shadow.

Kazuya's journey to Smash was not an easy one either. It likely began when Sakurai considered his father for 4, but rejected the idea because it was considered too difficult of a task. That had hung over Tekken ever since, and oftentimes caused fans to wonder how that would be executed. Heihachi's Mii costume returning did not help the situation at all for a year... until a certain pair of hands dropped Ganondorf into a volcano. That took the entire fandom by surprise. The Level 9 Kazuya CPU got a lot of interest early, especially since it turned out to be able to do a lot of Kazuya's tricker stuff and even prove to be a challenge to Serious Business players.

In the competitive scene Kazuya got his flagbearer rather early on: the earlier noted :ult_terry: player Riddles. Riddles was initially not sure about how effective Kazuya was - he actually doubted the new character quite a bit - but after some surprisingly good tournament wins and placements Riddles chose to stick with Kazuya alongside Terry. It no doubt helped that he got used to Kazuya's combo ability and pulled off some crazy stunts. Other notable Kazuya mains include Axiom XL and Brr (who just yesterday upset several more well-known players at a major tournament). All in all, Kazuya's effectiveness is somewhat debated, but he's commonly considered at least high tier.

His moveset is very, very close to Tekken - and his Specials are no exception. Devil Blaster is a hugely commital projectile that nevertheless does really solid damage. Its best use might be for harassing or edgeguarding, but it does a good job with that. Devil Fist is a likewise commital rush forward that - if it hits a close opponent - causes him / her to crumple, setting up followups. Devil Wings is not just a mainly-vertical recovery move - it's a slow but very potent out of shield option as well, helped by the fact that it doesn't leave him helpless. Heaven's Door is a relatively shortranged but powerful command grab akin to :ultbowser: 's Flying Slam, and it gets upgraded with Rage.

All right, time to talk about the rest of his moveset. Hoo boy. When Kazuya reaches 100 %, he gains Rage (not to be confused with the universal Rage mechanic). Rage not only increases his damage output by 1.1X, but also grants him access to his Rage Drive. Using the Rage Drive consumes Rage - and if he takes enough damage / misses enough Drives the Rage will go away (here's a nifty table, the max damage sustained before it goes away is generally 135 - 150 %). That said, the Rage Drive kills mad early and it can be activated in three ways (Grab, Down B, Crouch Dash + held attack or special button) which makes it dangerous to be around Kazuya when he has Rage.

Kazuya comes equipped with the largest movepool any Smash character has had so far. Holy ****:

  • 8 tilts + including the 10 hit as one of two jab strings (with the other being a more standard 1 2 3).
  • 4 attacks done while crouched (incl. one that's done while uncrouching).
  • 3 attacks done out of a Crouch Dash - of which WGF has the EWGF variant. All three are command inputs.
  • Two Dash Attacks - including a double dash attack.
  • A special command input throw.
  • All the above + more standard attacks like Smash Attacks and B moves.
Hoo boy.

D-Tilt (Neiji Uraken) is one of Kazuya's best combo starters, and even if comes out slowly because Kazuya has to turn around it also can be cancelled with shield, giving it utility as a bait. U-Tilt (Twin Pistons) is a good combo starter / extender and can be cancelled as well. Down Back Tilt (Stature Smash) always trips the opponent hit, giving it use as a "get off me!" or tech chase starter. He has several spacing moves here, like Back Tilt (Flash Tornado) and Up Back Tilt (Jump Side Kick), and several that kills early like F-Tilt (Oni Front Kick) - which is essentially Ganon's F-Tilt in many regards - and Up Forward Tilt ( Roundhouse to Triple Spin Kicks). His two Dash attacks include a rather standard Dash Attack (that's nevertheless powerful) and Left Splits Kick - the kick with a reflector. Committal but the strongest reflector in the game (2.4X), making it worth the risk if well timed. His Smash Attacks are also worth noting partly because of the damage based armor they have - F-Smash and U-Smash are excellent combo finishers, while D-Smash knocks people down and can spike. The 10 hit is really, really unreliable (it's not even a true combo, it can be SDI'd out of) but potentially devastating if the Kazuya gets the entire thing since it can do up to 45 - 50 %.

His crouching attacks are with noting. He has a crouch jab, Crouch forward attack (Tombstone Crusher) is a roll with immense power, Crouch back attack ( Crouch Spin Kick) is good for setting up tech chases at low %, while his uncrouching attack - Demon God Fist - is dangerous since it crumples opponents and can be a nasty surprise.

Kazuya inherits Tekken's "wavedash" the Crouch Dash - and not only does the Crouch Dash alliviate Kazuya's slow movement (even if its technical execution window is steep) it also allows three attack on its own depending on which button is pressed after the Crouch Dash. Wind God Fist (tapped A), Dragon Uppercut (held A) and Spinning Demon to Left Hook (B). The latter two are extremely potent KO moves, while WGF is a pretty good combo starter... but if you time WGF near-perfectly you get the Electric Wind God Fist. Suddenly this move gets a **** ton of stun, and while EWGF has a larger DI window a Kazuya who can do this consistently can just kill the opponent with either combo extenders or finishers. Extremely difficult but extremely rewarding.

Kazuya's air game is slow - not helped by his unique Frame 7 jumpsquat - but has quite a lot of strong aerials to go alongside. N-Air can spike if well timed, U-Air is a highly damaging kick that covers a lot vertically, F-Air is useful as a combo extender, and both B-Air and D-Air can kill relatively early even if they're commital. His grabs and throws are also very versatile - D-Throw is a useful combo starter, F-Throw and U-Throw can set up edgeguard situations, while his unique command input throw - Gates of Hell - is a monster of a throw, dealing 24 % and sending at a low enough angle that it just straight up deletes those with poor recoveries.

However, he does have his share of weaknesses. His learning curve is more of a learning cliff - it's very easy to misinput with this character unless one uses a specialized control scheme and playing him well almost requires tons of practice. He doesn't have the ability to cancel normal attacks into Specials either, making his combo game much different and much more precise for that matter. Kazuya's really heavy weight and floaty fall speed may allow him to survive a lot - but he is extremely vurnerable to getting comboed and juggled himself. The rather poor start up on his moveset means that he can struggle with handling pressure up close or otherwise being in a situation where the Kazuya player doesn't dictate the tempo. He also has overall poor mobility - with him being Bottom 10 in several speed stats - making him somewhat reliant on the Crouch Dash for approaches and making him rather linear overall. His recovery can be readily exploited by edgeguarders, making it risky.

Casually, he's difficult to get a hang of but can nevertheless be fun in the right situations. His enormous movepool gives him tools to deal with every situation, but he has so many that it can rather easy to forget. Still though, his sheer power and ability to clear the room does give him a chance when faced with multiple opponents or items. It does kinda help that he can use Gates of Hell on the ATs, and that his recovery won't be as often contested.

His Challenger Pack is really good. The stage is one of the better ones in this DLC - akin to KOF Stadium, Mishima Dojo discourages camping at the edge and the breakable walls do a good job condensing the fighting. Heihachi's appearance is a neat touch. The music is really good - 39 tracks is nothing to scoff at and includes everything from Jin's Theme to Yodelling in Meadow Hill - the only gripe I have personally is that Heat Haze Shadow should've had its 2nd section too. The Spirits are likewise a really good selection of Tekken characters, no complaints there.

All in all, Kazuya was a character I didn't expect but enjoyed a ton nonetheless personally, and this is a sentiment that kinda echoes throughout the fanbase. Wasn't considered, but nevertheless became a generally welcome addition.

(Weird character interaction sidenote: Kazuya's weirdest matchup is really difficult to say because he has a lot of strange ones. I'm not sure there's a matchup chart yet for him. If I had to guess, I'm going with characters who can likewise Zero-to-Death him just as well as he can Zero-to-Death someone, because those matchups will be volatile / defensive as all hell. :ultpikachu: / :ultpichu: might remind Kazuya players of Gon a bit too much - even if Kazuya never had the "opportunity" to face him - due to their small size and tendency to pancake. Kazuya's MU vs.:ultluigi: might devolve into Kazuya maneuvering around Luigi's endless supply of Poltergust plungers and Luigi's wall of F-Airs just as Luigi tries not to get caught by a EWGF or D-Throw. :ultrob: could be an really interesting case since both are really heavy and large targets - meaning both will take a ton of damage off of one hit even if it doesn't result in a Zero-to-Death. ROB also - like the JACK robots - has an excellent CQC game.)

Ngl though, Celebration of gaming + Western rep + Not popular in Japan makes me think it's Master Chief.
Hey I'd take that. Although my MW is exactly that - it's downright obscure in Japan...



Nah but seriously, if that is indeed true and we're getting a Western rep, I'm honestly fine with most if not almost all choices (with the only ones I'd dislike being outright trollish or say Bubsy). It's for the best to not get too carried away and just remember that the most important part is that CP11's going to be a fun character.

And I'm confident in Sakurai and co on that.
 
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Rie Sonomura

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Shionne > Alphen

nuff said :shades:

anyway, onto Kazuya… all I’ll say is he has met Ryu, Ken, Chrom and Lucina before

I’m so glad my headcanon of Project X Zone 2 being canon to Smash Ultimate has officially been validated (esp since we might not get another PXZ game seeing as how the creators and several programmers left)

still kinda think Sakurai had some bit of a say in the Nintendo trio (which includes Fiora from Xenoblade) appearing in PXZ2
 
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DutchPichu

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If that Tweet is something to go off of, then I think Rayman and a LoL character are growing in likelihood. Master Chief also, but I don't think we will get two Microsoft characters. If it's truely hype for westerns and if it's truely a big gaming moment, then I can actually see a Sony (PlayStation) character too. That would be the most legendary outcome. But I don't believe that.
 

Guybrush20X6

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If that Tweet is something to go off of, then I think Rayman and a LoL character are growing in likelihood. Master Chief also, but I don't think we will get two Microsoft characters. If it's truely hype for westerns and if it's truely a big gaming moment, then I can actually see a Sony (PlayStation) character too. That would be the most legendary outcome. But I don't believe that.
Kat from Gravity Rush is the dream.
 

RaintheCriminalWhirlwind

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Shionne > Alphen

nuff said :shades:

anyway, onto Kazuya… all I’ll say is he has met Ryu, Ken, Chrom and Lucina before

I’m so glad my headcanon of Project X Zone 2 being canon to Smash Ultimate has officially been validated (esp since we might not get another PXZ game seeing as how the creators and several programmers left)

still kinda think Sakurai had some bit of a say in the Nintendo trio (which includes Fiora from Xenoblade) appearing in PXZ2
If another Smash does happen, I want Shionne and Alphen in it (along with 2B if she's not the last DLC) I think there is real potential in their movesets
 

Stepheon

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Cheer up, man. Sora will get another chance one day.
Sure, it'll probably be a while, but as long as there's demand for him I have no doubt that he's on Nintendo's radar.
I know, I know. I just have wanted him for so long, and there won’t be a Smash like Smash Ultimate again. I was just really hoping it’d be Sora.
 

Kokiden

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So what happens to this thread? It'll get shut down and all new conversation will move to a new one?
 

Theguy123

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I see people taking sakurai’s “not that popular” tweet that was aimed at Japan as a potential way of saying it might be a western rep but I think there’s probably a different situation that people haven’t brought up.

what if this last character is a Japanese company based character who’s popularity is 90% outside of Japan. Someone who’s franchise pulls in the sales in Europe and the west but doesn’t do that well or is relatively meh in Japan. It would be the next best thing if there isn’t another western rep in this pass.

90% of this pass is catered towards Japanese audience so maybe this last character is a Japanese based character but the audience it’s aimed at is outside Japan. I wouldn’t have a clue who it would be but 2 franchises I know personally they do meh in Japan but thrive outside Japan are

professor Layton and the sonic franchise.

there’s obviously more, I just can’t comment on those as in terms of 3rd party franchises they’re the only 2 that I follow a lot. They’ll be more though. Think of it though

Arms is catered towards Japan audience

Steve is catered towards western audience

sephiroth’s aimed towards Japan audience

kazuya is aimed towards Japan audience

and pyra/myphra is aimed at Japan audience (8 think)

if they never planed on having a 2nd western rep in this pass then the next best thing is a Japan character who’s popularity is based in Europe or the west and not Japan specifically.

I’m probably stretching a bit here. It just got me thinking after sakurai’s tweet about the last character potentially not being well known to Japan audience
 
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CapitaineCrash

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I see people taking sakurai’s “not that popular” tweet that was aimed at Japan as a potential way of saying it might be a western rep but I think there’s probably a different situation that people haven’t brought up.

what if this last character is a Japanese company based character who’s popularity is 90% outside of Japan. Someone who’s franchise pulls in the sales in Europe and the west but doesn’t do that well or is relatively meh in Japan. It would be the next best thing if there isn’t another western rep in this pass.

90% of this pass is catered towards Japanese audience so maybe this last character is a Japanese based character but the audience it’s aimed at is outside Japan. I wouldn’t have a clue who it would be but 2 franchises I know personally they do meh in Japan but thrive outside Japan are

professor Layton and the sonic franchise.

there’s obviously more, I just can’t comment on those as in terms of 3rd party franchises they’re the only 2 that I follow a lot. They’ll be more though. Think of it though

Arms is catered towards Japan audience

Steve is catered towards western audience

sephiroth’s aimed towards Japan audience

kazuya is aimed towards Japan audience

and pyra/myphra is aimed at Japan audience (8 think)

if they never played on having a 2nd western rep in this pass then the next best thing is a Japan character who’s popularity is based in Europe or the west and not Japan specifically.

I’m probably stretching a bit here. It just got me thinking after sakurai’s tweet about the last character potentially not being well known to Japan audience
I get where you coming from, but Sonic isn't really a good example of that. Sonic is definitely huge worldwide and Eggman or Shadow would be easily recognizable by Japanese.
 

DanganZilla5

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In regards to that tweet that speaks to Japanese audiences, a character that I'm thinking of is Bill Rizer. I'm not sure how popular Contra is in Japan but the fact that it is inspired by western movies makes me think that it's probably more iconic in the west than in Japan.

Just food for thought.
 

Rie Sonomura

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Ever since Min Min, I’d hoped for another Spirit promotion. I initially hoped for Elma, at least before Pyra/Mythra happened.

now it’s Octoling or Off the Hook, the latter I’m also hoping is a fakeout sitch with the Squid Sisters Miis a la Heihachi

inb4 it’s Tsubasa Oribe
 

Theguy123

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I get where you coming from, but Sonic isn't really a good example of that. Sonic is definitely huge worldwide and Eggman or Shadow would be easily recognizable by Japanese.
yeah sonic might have been a bad example on my end. I just remembered that a lot of sonic games bomb inside of Japan but usually do well outside of Japan. Not a good example though I can admit
 

zumaddy

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Ever since Min Min, I’d hoped for another Spirit promotion. I initially hoped for Elma, at least before Pyra/Mythra happened.

now it’s Octoling or Off the Hook, the latter I’m also hoping is a fakeout sitch with the Squid Sisters Miis a la Heihachi

inb4 it’s Tsubasa Oribe
Now that would be a saltsplosion. A Fire Emblem character from a game a decent chunk of the FE fandom doesn't like.
 

Rie Sonomura

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He said Festival AGAIN

Splatfests are just called Fes (short for Festival) in Japan

PLEASE let this be Veemo’s time
 

HYRULESHERO42

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“Even if you don’t play Smash bros and are a fan of gaming in general” etc

Kinda sounds like cross platform reveal no? Like gamepass on Nintendo kinda thing? Just spitballing
 
D

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There's a little irony to the fact that Sakurai has tweeted such a message on today, this thread's Kazuya day. I think people might be looking a little too much into it, and it's because I can speak from personal experience this time.

I'm a big gamer. I've either played or at least looked into most of the big franchises of today. I knew most of them when they were just a little NES cartridge. Few and far between are the characters I won't recognize right off the bat, and if I can't call them by their name, I can at least say something like "oh it's main character of [x]" or "hey it's the villain from [y]".

I wasn't able to do that with Kazuya. He is the first character ever added to Smash since 64 that I genuinely said "who?"... And I don't think of that as a bad thing. I know of Tekken, and I knew he was "Tekken", but I didn't know who. I called him Jin, which as it turns out isn't far off the mark. That feeling of a character I didn't know is so strange - I wasn't mad about his inclusion, I wasn't confused, I was just "ok". I'm still just ok with him.

I think sometimes people forget that Nintendo is still marketing Smash as a kid's game. It's easy to look at the competitive community and see mostly 18-25s playing it, or think about it as the drunk frat party game, but just remember how they've worked hard to keep it E rated for the last two titles. I'm lucky, and anyone like me is lucky, that we were able to grow up playing lots of different games. I was given about 15 NES games along with the console when I was ****ing two years old and I grew up in an age where you could go to a pawn shop or a flea market and find NES and SNES games for 50 cents a piece. Earthbound was a 35 dollar game and I felt like it was pushing the bounds of reasonable when I bought it on ebay.

The Japanese retro game market isn't quite as cut-throat as it is here in the US, to my knowledge. You can get some great titles for pennies, and typically games only end up expensive if there's a huge western market for them, only because the sellers know they can jack the price up a little because some western collector will settle for the Super/Famicom version. But I think a limiting factor for Japanese kids would be either how prevalent mobile gaming is nowadays, or just space concerns. Maybe it's just a stereotype, but the general understanding is that Japanese houses are small, and as someone who still has all of his consoles, I know they take up way more space than they're worth. I'm fortunate to have the room to store them, but if I lived in a one-two room apartment, I don't think I could justify keeping them all.

That's just my two cents on the matter, that maybe he isn't trying to hint at a western character as much as he's hinting at another retro pick.

Or, y'know, he's not hinting at anything. It's the last Smash character and he wants to tell the fans that it's ok to not know the character or for it to not be the person you wanted, just enjoy where we're at.
 

Gengar84

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I’m starting to get my hopes up a little too much about the Battletoads potentially being the final character. Nintendo and Microsoft have been working together a lot recently and Banjo-Kazooie is coming to switch online with rumors of other Rare games on the way. Sakurai also just tweeted to the Japanese audience and possibly hinted that it may be a character they aren’t very familiar with. They also made something of a comeback in modern times with their new game and appearances in Killer Instinct and Shovel Knight. It’s still a long shot but I actually feel like they have a real chance as everything seems to be lining up for them.
 

Dukefire

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Getting nervous with the last day. I just hope it is a character a lot of people can agree on.
Screenshot_20210429-001225_YouTube.jpg
 

Rie Sonomura

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You thought it'd be SMT V protag but our second ATLUS rep was Aigis from Persona 3 FES (short for festival) all along.
RIP Violet aka Jane Ponytailbones :c
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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While some characters are more popular in certain regions than others, I don’t think of them in the second pass feel directly geared towards Japan or the West (certainly not to the degree that Banjo or Hero were).

Even Kazuya seems like someone made for traditional fighting game circles than one geographic area.
 
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D

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While some characters are more popular in certain regions than others, I don’t think of them in the second pass feel directly geared towards Japan or the West.

Even Kazuya seems like someone made for traditional fighting game circles than one geographic area.
Fool, you've fallen for it. Kazuya actually pandered to the Korean Tekken community.
 

Gengar84

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Was it confirmed to be a mistranslation where Sakurai implied multiple characters in that tweet? The way I originally read it seemed to suggest that but I’m sure it had to be a mistranslation.
 
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