Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Cutie Gwen]

I was referring more to the general fanbase, who aren't regularly debating and speculating. For forums that are debating this stuff just about every day, perhaps not the best idea.

In that case I disagree again, wouldn't it be more interesting to casual audiences if the character from Smash was from this game they may or may not know, but not the one on the boxart, which in turn can make them curious and buy the game to see this mysterious character?

 

[DarthEnderX]

2020 being one of their most profitable years?

But...does that have ANYTHING to do with the lack of Directs?

Or could it have been even MORE profitable with Directs?

Correlation ≠ causation.

 

[Shroob]

But...does that have ANYTHING to do with the lack of Directs?

Or would it have been even MORE profitable with Directs?

Correlation ≠ causation.

I mean, they didn't put any money in Directs really and probably saved several millions on advertising if I had to guess. I have zero clue how much a Direct takes to produce, but why spend money going towards an advertising format that they themselves admitted that they were "Considering moving away from" when just dropping **** works just as well?


Like, the thing to remember is that even before the pandemic, they were already toying with the idea of just not doing Directs anymore.

 

[N3ON]

Yes, if we had received a first-party character that no one had asked for mid-DLC, after basically half a year since the last character (who was also a first-party, one that many people didn't want to see), the reaction indeed would've been lukewarm and I'm still surprised to see people disagree with that.

I'm surely not the only one who remembers the muted enthusiasm upon just learning the next character would be from ARMS. It was very much a "ok, cool" kind of reaction from most people.

And I'm surely not the only one who remembers the sentiment of "no one cares about ARMS" that hung heavy in the air suspiciously right up until notice of the character arrival.

Saying it'd be more hype because it was Min Min isn't even really the point since given what people want and expect from DLC, it the hype would've been comparatively restrained no matter which character we got. Though the Twintelle crowd may be an exception, but they're their own can of worms.

I'm not saying people would be mad like they were with Byleth, but I doubt hype would be the best descriptor either. It wasn't really fun the way they did what they did in the lead-up to the reveal, but it wasn't senseless either.

In that case I disagree again, wouldn't it be more interesting to casual audiences if the character from Smash was from this game they may or may not know, but not the one on the boxart, which in turn can make them curious and buy the game to see this mysterious character?

I don't think potential casual consumers are particularly enticed by characters that aren't on the box from games they don't know.

Usually it's the opposite of that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, the ARMS thing worked great. The target casual audience got more interest in the game itself, and everything sold like hotcakes.

Speculators are not the target audience to begin with. We're like the least important one, especially for those kind of situations.

 

[Staarih]

Smash is both a curse and a blessing for having pre-established characters. Should this be another fighting game, new characters would typically be... well, new characters. In those cases it would be easier to be like "oh, I like this" or "not a fan". In Smash, it goes beyond that mostly because "this character isn't hype" (like, what contributes to that anyway? The order they're revealed in?) or "character X got in instead of character Y", so some characters just get unneeded hate.

Oh well shrug Min Min is probably my favorite DLC addition, but I'm a big ARMS fan and having anyone from that game was a shocker. Just goes to tell how "hype" is subjective. Like, Sephiroth did nothing to me tbh, I've never played a single FF game in my life.

Like the thing to remember is that even before the pandemic, they were already toying with the idea of just not doing Directs anymore.

I dunno, wasn't there just a recent job opening at NoA with one of the tasks being creating footage for Directs? HERE. I personally think Directs have never not "been a thing", the pandemic just forced to do some other stuff, hence the "try to find other ways to inform about news" etc. I don't think we're fully away from Direct-esque news drops (aren't the Partner Showcases kinda similar?), but what do I know.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Smash is both a curse and a blessing for having pre-established characters. Should this be another fighting game, new characters would typically be... well, new characters. In those cases it would be easier to be like "oh, I like this" or "not a fan". In Smash, it goes beyond that mostly because "this character isn't hype" (like, what contributes to that anyway? The order they're revealed in?) or "character X got in instead of character Y", so some characters just get unneeded hate.

Well, it's more like pre-established characters from all sorts of series instead of one. Look at the reaction to Android 17 being FighterZ DLC, it was anything but "Ugh, an assist? Should've been Jotaro, the hype would've been epic".

 

[Shroob]

Smash is both a curse and a blessing for having pre-established characters. Should this be another fighting game, new characters would typically be... well, new characters. In those cases it would be easier to be like "oh, I like this" or "not a fan". In Smash, it goes beyond that mostly because "this character isn't hype" (like, what contributes to that anyway? The order they're revealed in?) or "character X got in instead of character Y", so some characters just get unneeded hate.

Oh well shrug Min Min is probably my favorite DLC addition, but I'm a big ARMS fan and having anyone from that game was a shocker. Just goes to tell how "hype" is subjective. Like, Sephiroth did nothing to me tbh, I've never played a single FF game in my life.


I dunno, wasn't there just a recent job opening at NoA with one of the tasks being creating footage for Directs? HERE. I personally think Directs have never not "been a thing", the pandemic just forced to do some other stuff, hence the "try to find other ways to inform about news" etc. I don't think we're fully away from Direct-esque news drops (aren't the Partner Showcases kinda similar?), but what do I know.

Didn't Furukawa more or less say they were looking for "Better ways" to convey news?

He did, actually



“We feel Nintendo Directs are an incredibly effective way to present information directly to our customers in a very straight-forward way,” Furukawa said.

“Inversely, times change and so does the most effective way to promote products, so there is a chance that a new, better way to present this information comes about. So we always like to examine all of the possible ways to communicate this information to customers.”

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't think potential casual consumers are particularly enticed by characters that aren't on the box from games they don't know.

Usually it's the opposite of that.

If you're interested enough in ARMS because a character from it got in Smash, then needing to do more research than a quick glance can create interest. It's like how people can look at support threads here and then conclude they want a character after reading it despite no prior interest

Well, it's more like pre-established characters from all sorts of series instead of one. Look at the reaction to Android 17 being FighterZ DLC, it was anything but "Ugh, an assist? Should've been Jotaro, the hype would've been epic".

Yes because Smash and DBFZ are the exact same games, therefore, this is actually very cool of you to point out and not incredibly dishonest. After all, in DBFZ, you can have FFAs with items with stage hazards.

 

[Commander_Alph]

So basically you can't measure Smash with anything, the series is just too unique.

 

[ZelDan]

If you're interested enough in ARMS because a character from it got in Smash, then needing to do more research than a quick glance can create interest. It's like how people can look at support threads here and then conclude they want a character after reading it despite no prior interest
Yes because Smash and DBFZ are the exact same games, therefore, this is actually very cool of you to point out and not incredibly dishonest. After all, in DBFZ, you can have FFAs with items with stage hazards.

Wasn't their discussion about character hype? I don't really see what items/stage hazards/gameplay has to do with that.

 

[7NATOR]

I feel like in a World where Smash was only Nintendo exclusive characters, Min Min might have still been kind of luke warm, but I do think think she would have been more hype. Of course Smash might not have as much attention or as big of an audience as it does right now. It is what it is

I also think People would have been hyped if Min Min was instead Waluigi, even if there would have probably been more haters

Yes because Smash and DBFZ are the exact same games, therefore, this is actually very cool of you to point out and not incredibly dishonest. After all, in DBFZ, you can have FFAs with items with stage hazards.

His point is still accurate though. I imagine Android 17 would get hate if DBFZ was instead a Jump anime crossover game. Once you bait new audiences from Different series and franchise to go check out the game, they are gonna want content that appeals to them, and the more audiences you have, the harder it is to appeal to everyone

Dragon Ball FighterZ has an easier time because it's really meant only for Dragon Ball fans.

Dude, she really really is, for every reason people have already told you countless times over. She'd probably be the second if Ken wasn't such an easy character to implement.

No other additional character, not just from Street Fighter but ANY series currently represented in Smash, is as synonymous with their series' brand and generally iconic on a worldwide scale as Chun-Li and not in the game yet. She is at worst a clear second place behind the main protagonist (Ryu) and at best literally on par with Ryu and equally the series' face. This is a situation extremely unique to Chun-Li that applies to literally no other character being discussed right now as supplement for any series in Smash.

She is so far ahead of everyone else that it isn't even funny. I'm not sure what you're not understanding about it, at this point.

I'm all for people keeping their options open and not making assumptions. This however is a very very easy and safe assumption to make. If we don't get Chun-Li as DLC we're not getting another Street Fighter character until we do.

I agree with this to an extent, but I also disagree on some counts

-I feel like making Chun-Li to be this Exception to the rule is very disingenuous. Eggman, Tails, Shadow & Knuckles are synonymous with the Series brand as well. I don't think I've seen too many crossovers where Sonic is just alone. Smash is really the ultimate exception. I would also even argue cases like Zero, Alucard, and Raiden as examples

Raiden had his own game, Zero had his own Sub-Series, Alucard pretty much had his own game, and Sakurai even noted he might have been more popular than the Belmonts.

Even if you want to say those 3 are more niche compared to Chun-Li, Eggman, Tails, Shadow, & Knuckles all had their own game. Shadow's in Particular was very successful and even though it's heavily Controversial and Hated game among some people, You still see people want Shadow with guns, or even people that grew up with the game or starting to try it out through means saying they liked it and such

Plus there's the whole thing With King of Fighters and characters like Kyo or Iori

Chun-Li is not this exception to the rule. I acknowledge that she's heavily Iconic, and I definitely do perhaps see her as a Co-Protagonist, but I don't think she's so above some other potential secondary 3rd party characters in this regard

-Chun-Li probably is 2nd Place, but I don't think M.Bison and Akuma are too far behind that Chun-Li becomes the sole option for a New Street Fighter character after Ken. Both these characters have merits that shouldn't make them dismissed because they aren't Chun-Li. M.Bison is considered one of the most Iconic video game villains, and Akuma is known as one of the Ultimate Secret Boss, and for some the 1st one (even though Reptile came first), and has appeared on his own as well, like in Tekken 7.

Like I say, I 100% understand the Sentiment of why Chun-Li is definitely the favorable option. I'm just giving my take as to why I don't think Chun-Li is the only SF character to be considered

 

[Guynamednelson]

After all, in DBFZ, you can have FFAs with items with stage hazards.

I'd think casuals would be glad that FFAs are slightly less overwhelming if there's one less item. Seriously I don't see how people think playing with all items on high is fun after the items 4 introduced.

 

[Commander_Alph]

So if that Tales of Chun-Li leak does come true....

I thought the Chun-Li leak was supposed to say that she is intended for base game and the second SF character, not about Nintendo reconsidering her chances right now, I mean as far as I know?? Why all of the sudden she's a big talk, not in the legacy standpoint?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wasn't their discussion about character hype? I don't really see what items/stage hazards/gameplay has to do with that.

I'm not sure if you're aware of it but surprisingly enough, DBFZ is not the exact same game as Smash. Just because you press a button to hit an opponent doesn't mean they're the exact same games with the same features, expectations, sort of speculation and more. Nelson clearly made the comparison because he's upset not everyone thinks his favourite ATs will get promoted yet DBFZ doesn't have ATs nor does it have more than 1 franchise represented. It's a laughably dishonest comparison and he's done this before with other fighting games because clearly, they must all be the same to him

 

[Guynamednelson]

they must all be the same to him

Apparently knowing other fanbases don't try their damndest to discredit the idea of a DLC fighter not being a guest means thinking Smash is just like every other fighter.

 

[Schnee117]

Apparently knowing other fanbases don't try their damndest to discredit the idea of a DLC fighter not being a guest means thinking Smash is just like every other fighter.

It's almost like Dragon Ball FighterZ isn't a crossover you clown

 

[Will]

Look at the reaction to Android 17 being FighterZ DLC, it was anything but "Ugh, an assist? Should've been Jotaro, the hype would've been epic".

Bruh I know you didn't just call Jotaro a ****ing Dragon Ball character lmao

Try comparing games and series you actually know next time.

 

[Commander_Alph]

If only Jump Force, J-Star or heck even other Jump crossover isn't being rebooted in every new installment and act like this crossover something new then we could scale that to Smash

 

[Will]

If only Jump Force, J-Star or heck even other Jump crossover isn't being rebooted in every new installment and act like this crossover something new then we could scale that to Smash

It's sad that the Jump games were better as the DS Smash clones than how they are now.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Bruh I know you didn't just call Jotaro a ****ing Dragon Ball character lmao

Try comparing games and series you actually know next time.

The point is that they didn't complain he wasn't a guest fighter. And yes, I know I'm now committing the hate crime of thinking a first party that isn't Rex/Cinderace could make it so I'mma bail.

 

[ZelDan]

I'm not sure if you're aware of it but surprisingly enough, DBFZ is not the exact same game as Smash. Just because you press a button to hit an opponent doesn't mean they're the exact same games with the same features, expectations, sort of speculation and more. Nelson clearly made the comparison because he's upset not everyone thinks his favourite ATs will get promoted yet DBFZ doesn't have ATs nor does it have more than 1 franchise represented. It's a laughably dishonest comparison and he's done this before with other fighting games because clearly, they must all be the same to him

I mean, yeah I get they aren't the same.

just seemed strange to go the "FFAs and stage hazards" route and not the "crossover" route with your argument when gameplay wasn't exactly the point I thought.

 

[Will]

The point is that they didn't complain he wasn't a guest fighter. And yes, I know I'm now committing the hate crime of thinking a first party that isn't Rex/Cinderace could make it so I'mma bail.

Jesse what the **** are you talking about, none of what your saying is making any remote sense.

 

[Commander_Alph]

It's sad that the Jump games were better as the DS Smash clones than how they are now.

I feel like arena fighter could actually be a good fighting game subgenre if they didn't make the stage very spacious and empty, I honestly think that the genre fit any manga/anime series since everyone usual fights in an open field and could move freely which makes anime fight scene more special. Sad that Jump failed to execute it and since the we never get a definitive Jump crossover series. (and hope next time they will just stick to the manga artstyle than being realistic and using motion capture)

 

[Will]

I feel like arena fighter could actually be a good fighting game subgenre if they didn't make the stage very spacious and empty, I honestly think that the genre fit any manga/anime series since everyone usual fights in an open field and could move freely which makes anime fight scene more special.

Arena fighters suck mostly because they're arenas, they're not really meant for 1v1s or a 3v3 that's controlled one at a time.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Jesse what the **** are you talking about, none of what your saying is making any remote sense.

What the **** is there to get? They didn't complain that they got a promoted assist over a guest fighter.

And yes, I know anything that doesn't conform to "if you want a first party you HAVE to deal with rex or cinderace, don't you dare think something else could make it" doesn't make sense.

 

[Commander_Alph]

Arena fighters suck mostly because they're arenas, they're not really meant for 1v1s or a 3v3 that's controlled one at a time.

It's more about the moveset and mechanic and so far they just go on an easy route and provide everyone with an easy combo and follow up attack with just one button press continuously, the genre actually could be used as a good mind game, the fact that it's arena means that you could set up some interesting tactic of fighting inspired by each character in their own series. Like make Goku be a rushdown character and have his moveset alway charging in head first and make Izuku moveset be more analytical, combining both his punches and kicks to make a strong combo.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Jesse what the **** are you talking about, none of what your saying is making any remote sense.

Thinking a character is likely and wanting them being different is a take far too nuanced for Nelson so he assumes that everyone not thinking a character will happen means they absolutely hate the character, that, and Nelson really hates third parties for some reason

I mean, yeah I get they aren't the same.

just seemed strange to go the "FFAs and stage hazards" route and not the "crossover" route with your argument when gameplay wasn't exactly the point I thought.

I'll simplify the argument then. There are no ATs in DBFZ so nobody wants an AT promotion in DBFZ and DBFZ isn't a crossover fighter so trying to pretend "ew gimme Jotaro" is a real thing people said is dishonest as hell

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Eggman, Tails, Shadow & Knuckles are synonymous with the Series brand as well.

Always excluding Amy... tsk, tsk.

 

[Louie G.]

Chun-Li is not this exception to the rule. I acknowledge that she's heavily Iconic, and I definitely do perhaps see her as a Co-Protagonist, but I don't think she's so above some other potential secondary 3rd party characters in this regard

You misunderstood everything I said. Chun-Li isn’t the exception to any nonexistent “rule”. She is one of the few characters whose significance in her franchise is practically equal to that of the main protagonist. None of the Sonic characters can say this for themselves, since you used them as examples.

Kyo, sure but that’s a bit of a special case. Terry is the star of Fatal Fury, not KOF - even though they are closely related. It’s kind of a hard comparison to judge because it’s somewhat of a special case. And Raiden... not really? I mean, he has his own games but he’s not as significant as Snake at all. I think you’d be hard pressed to find someone saying Raiden is as iconic as Snake. Having their own game doesn’t immediately make them as important as the main series protagonist.

Shadow having one game does not put him on a Chun-Li esque pedestal in his respective series. Knuckles Chaotix does not make Knuckles as synonymous with the Sonic brand as Chun-Li is with SF. Chun-Li doesn’t have her own game, but rather a deep deep undetachable legacy in this series where she is marketed just as frequently as the main character and appears alongside him in literally like every major SF crossover that isn’t Smash. Not M Bison, not Akuma, not even Ken. That’s Chun-Li showing up, every single time.

Sonic poses a very different problem. Tails, Eggman and Shadow are all equally viable choices for the next Sonic character. Street Fighter does not have this problem. I wasn’t saying Chun-Li is leagues more iconic or whatever than Tails or Eggman - I was saying her role as co-mascot of the series is incomparable to any of them. She’s in a league of her own in that regard. Except maybe the aforementioned Kyo, which is sort of an odd case. But when you want to promote a new Sonic game, you put Sonic front and center. For Street Fighter though...

Equal spotlight on both of the stars of the series.

I ask you this as a totally genuine question, I’m not trying to be sarcastic - do you know very much about Street Fighter at all? Seriously, like, it’s so hard to get through to you on this for some reason while I’m speaking from a place of deep love for this series, these characters and knowledge of its history.

You keep undermining the significance of Chun-Li and blatantly misunderstanding or dismissing what people tell you, I don’t get it. She is literally THAT important, nothing else you’re saying about Akuma being the “ultimate secret boss” or whatever justifies this weird uninformed take that anyone even comes close to the significance of Chun-Li, hands down and far away not just the most important SF character absent but legitimately might be the most important video game character absent from the roster. And as bold of a statement as that is it isn’t even a hot take.

I’m sorry to go off on you like this but man, it’s Chun-Li or nothing. 1000%.

 

[Commander_Alph]

You misunderstood everything I said. Chun-Li isn’t the exception to any nonexistent “rule”. She is one of the few characters whose significance in her franchise is practically equal to that of the main protagonist. None of the Sonic characters can say this for themselves, since you used them as examples.

Kyo, sure but that’s a bit of a special case. Terry is the star of Fatal Fury, not KOF - even though they are closely related. It’s kind of a hard comparison to judge because it’s somewhat of a special case. And Raiden... not really? I mean, he has his own games but he’s not as significant as Snake at all. I think you’d be hard pressed to find someone saying Raiden is as iconic as Snake. Having their own game doesn’t immediately make them as important as the main series protagonist.

Shadow having one game does not put him on a Chun-Li esque pedestal in his respective series. Knuckles Chaotix does not make Knuckles as synonymous with the Sonic brand as Chun-Li is with SF. Chun-Li doesn’t have her own game, but rather a deep deep undetachable legacy in this series where she is marketed just as frequently as the main character and appears alongside him in literally like every major SF crossover that isn’t Smash. Not M Bison, not Akuma, not even Ken. That’s Chun-Li showing up, every single time.

Sonic poses a very different problem. Tails, Eggman and Shadow are all equally viable choices for the next Sonic character. Street Fighter does not have this problem. I wasn’t saying Chun-Li is leagues more iconic or whatever than Tails or Eggman - I was saying her role as co-mascot of the series is incomparable to any of them. She’s in a league of her own in that regard. Except maybe the aforementioned Kyo, which is sort of an odd case.

I ask you this as a totally genuine question, I’m not trying to be sarcastic - do you know very much about Street Fighter at all? Seriously, like, it’s so hard to get through to you on this for some reason while I’m speaking from a place of deep love for this series and knowledge of its history.

You keep undermining the significance of Chun-Li and blatantly misunderstanding or dismissing what people tell you, I don’t get it. She is literally THAT important, nothing else you’re saying about Akuma being the “ultimate secret boss” or whatever justifies this weird uninformed take that anyone even comes close to the significance of Chun-Li, hands down and far away not just the most important SF character absent but legitimately might be the most important video game character absent from the roster. And as bold of a statement as that is it isn’t even a hot take.

I’m sorry to go off on you like this but man, it’s Chun-Li or nothing. 1000%.

Not to be rude but you sound like an obsessive fan of SF, I get it she IS important but gotta tone that one a bit low, you sounds like a know-it-all and I don't like it.

 

[RileyXY1]

Not to be rude but you sound like an obsessive fan of SF, I get it she IS important but gotta tone that one a bit low, you sounds like a know-it-all and I don't like it.

Yeah. I don't think that Chun-Li is guaranteed to be the next Street Fighter rep anyways.

 

[Louie G.]

Not to be rude but you sound like an obsessive fan of SF, I get it she IS important but gotta tone that one a bit low, you sounds like a know-it-all and I don't like it.

Aside from the part where I say Chun-Li is arguably the most significant character left, which I still stand by but shouldn’t distract from what else I explained, I don’t think I really said anything wrong or out of line.

Chun-Li is the most important SF character left by a significant margin. I don’t really care if I sound like a know it all because... I do know a lot about the series, so I’m offering legitimate insight on why Chun-Li holds that position and why her case is not comparable to other characters.

Sorry if I sounded frustrated but I’m practically arguing the equivalent of “Luigi will be in Smash before Wario” here, which should really go without saying.

 

[PLATINUM7]

You'll all be bamboozled when it's Dan Hibiki.

 

[RileyXY1]

Aside from the part where I say Chun-Li is arguably the most significant character left, which I still stand by but shouldn’t distract from what else I explained, I don’t think I really said anything out of line.

Chun-Li is the most important SF character left by a significant margin. I don’t really care if I sound like a know it all because... I do know a lot about the series, so I’m offering legitimate insight on why Chun-Li holds that position and why her case is not comparable to other characters.

Sorry if I sounded frustrated but I’m practically arguing the equivalent of “Luigi will be in Smash before Wario” here, which should really go without saying.

Chun-Li has, however, never been the sole representative of Street Fighter in any crossover. She is always accompanied by Ryu. Akuma meanwhile has been Street Fighter's sole rep in a crossover before (Tekken 7).

 

[Commander_Alph]

I mean the fact that Ken is in first and Guile an Assist says a lot, she doesn't really seat on her golden thrown than just being a legendary spirit. Oh, I will definitly believe you... if the 2 character that I mentioned didn't appear after her.

 

[RileyXY1]

I mean the fact that Ken is in first and Guile an Assist says a lot, she doesn't really seat on her golden thrown than just being a legendary spirit.

Ken even appeared in Smash before Chun-Li. He had a trophy in Smash 4 and the Street Fighter music in Smash 4 was just 3 remixes of Ryu's theme and Ken's theme respectively.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Chun-Li has, however, never been the sole representative of Street Fighter in any crossover. She is always accompanied by Ryu. Akuma meanwhile has been Street Fighter's sole rep in a crossover before (Tekken 7).

Akuma was worked in from a story perspective for Tekken. It's a bit different to choosing characters for Smash.

 

[RileyXY1]

Akuma was worked in from a story perspective for Tekken. It's a bit different to choosing characters for Smash.

But still, the fact that they chose Akuma and not Ryu, Ken, or Chun-Li is telling.

 

[Mr. Robotto]

Chun-Li has, however, never been the sole representative of Street Fighter in any crossover. She is always accompanied by Ryu. Akuma meanwhile has been Street Fighter's sole rep in a crossover before (Tekken 7).

Not only did Akuma get in because of story reasons, but also that's because Tekken 7 had a theme of iconic Fighting Game villains. Hence Geese Howard got in as well.