Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[2006ToyotaTacoma]

You know what would be funny? People expecting huge reveals like Crash or Master Chief at E3 and they end up revealing niche characters like Nightmare and Rash as the last two fighters.

I'd be more down for an out-of-left field pick rather than commonly expected pick tbh. The surprise factor adds a little bit more to the reveal imo.

 

[AreJay25]

You know what would be funny? People expecting huge reveals like Crash or Master Chief at E3 and they end up revealing niche characters like Nightmare and Rash as the last two fighters.

I mean, that'd be a cool ass final 2 in my book lol. Nightmare is one of my most wanted and Rash could have a pretty fun moveset.

Plus it'd mean these crossovers would come full circle.

 

[kylexv]

Pic of the Day:

pic.twitter.com/p8lieq7Xut

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) April 29, 2021

he slime

 

[RGFS]

You know what would be funny? People expecting huge reveals like Crash or Master Chief at E3 and they end up revealing niche characters like Nightmare and Rash as the last two fighters.

I actually think Nightmare is probably the most likely fighting game character we could get next if you'd ask me. As a Bandai Namco character, he would make about as much sense as the Dark Souls or Tales Of.

Soul Calibur is a decently recognizable fighting game series that is helped by the number of big crossovers from Star Wars, God of War, The Legend of Zelda, etc. That helped me and likely many others be aware of the series. It would make a ton of sense in Smash.

 

[Technomage]

You know what would be funny? People expecting huge reveals like Crash or Master Chief at E3 and they end up revealing niche characters like Nightmare and Rash as the last two fighters.

Speaking of Nightmare: Should he have Siegfried as an alt?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Pic of the Day:

pic.twitter.com/p8lieq7Xut

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) April 29, 2021

he slime

He's just standing there...

MENACINGLY!

 

[DanganZilla5]

I'll jump into the Soul Calibur stan talk too.

Not only is it a fairly popular series, it's also responsible for introducing the concept of weapons to fighting games and to my knowledge it created the 8 way movement system so it does have some legacy to it. Out of Bamco's library Soul Calibur is up there with Tales Of, Digimon, and Dark Souls as one of it's more likely properties.

Plus it has a masterpiece of a soundtrack. For those of you who haven't braced the orchestrated goodness, here are some fabulous examples.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

It's one of my top favorite game series OST. My god it is unbelievable how good it sounds.

 

[Golden Icarus]

I actually think Nightmare is probably the most likely fighting game character we could get next if you'd ask me. As a Bandai Namco character, he would make about as much sense as the Dark Souls or Tales Of.

Soul Calibur is a decently recognizable fighting game series that is helped by the number of big crossovers from Star Wars, God of War, The Legend of Zelda, etc. That helped me and likely many others be aware of the series. It would make a ton of sense in Smash.

Speaking personally, I played Soul Calibur way before I even knew about Tekken, and while I do like Heihachi, Nightmare is way more interesting and would probably be much easier to implement into Smash if I had to guess.

Still, my bet is on Lloyd/Yuri if we were to get another Namco character (maybe Dark Souls, but I have pretty mixed feelings about that) and as far as fighting game characters go, Chun, Sol, or even Scorpion all stand out quite a bit more than Nightmare.

 

[Gnateb]

I could be wrong here, but to me, the fact that Lloyd got a costume in Sm4sh makes me wary of his inclusion. Not a Tales character, just Lloyd specifically. So far, Nintendo has only recycled the Sm4sh miis without really changing anything. Lloyd could very well be the exception, but I have kind of a hard time thinking any of them will be "upgraded".

 

[Icedragonadam]

Lloyd's costume is a strange situation compared to the other 3rd party costumes in 4 because of Kosuke being in the copyrights of Lloyd's mii page.

 

[DanganZilla5]

Speaking of Nightmare: Should he have Siegfried as an alt?

It's interesting how you bring this up. I've always thought that Nightmare would be a powered up version of Siegfried and he would be the default character. But if they made Nightmare the default, I don't think Siegfried could work. He has been a skin of Nightmare in at least one of the Soul Calibur games but the thing is I think they would have to change too much of his characterization to the point where he would have be an echo. They do share a very similar moveset, but Siegfried's voice, taunts, and some of his animations would have to be changed. To be fair Byleth and Steve's alts have shown that alts can be quite different in some ways, but this would be the biggest deviation yet when it comes to how different an alt can be from the standard skin.

 

[Louie G.]

I think Nightmare would be awesome, I just have trouble justifying the idea of adding a Soul Caliber character to Smash over Tekken since the latter is Namco's biggest fighting game series by a good margin. I guess it'd be like ArcSys adding Ragna before Sol - it COULD happen, but it'd just be kind of odd to go for the second banana over the main attraction, I guess.

But as far as personal preference goes, Nightmare is badass and I'd probably opt for him over Heihachi myself. Not to rain on anyone's parade either, feel free to talk about the possibility... I just saw it sized up to Dark Souls and Tales Of which, as far as I'm aware, are quite a bit bigger and also the most prominent games from their respective genre among Namco's lineup, so I wanted to chime in on that.

Speaking personally, I played Soul Calibur way before I even knew about Tekken

Although this is actually true for me too, lmao.

 

[Gnateb]

Lloyd's costume is a strange situation compared to the other 3rd party costumes in 4 because of Kosuke being in the copyrights of Lloyd's mii page.

What do you think this means?

 

[Icedragonadam]

What do you think this means?

I don't know, just that Kosuke also had to be consulted about it back in 4.

 

[RGFS]

Speaking personally, I played Soul Calibur way before I even knew about Tekken, and while I do like Heihachi, Nightmare is way more interesting and would probably be much easier to implement into Smash if I had to guess.

Still, my bet is on Lloyd/Yuri if we were to get another Namco character (maybe Dark Souls, but I have pretty mixed feelings about that) and as far as fighting game characters go, Chun, Sol, or even Scorpion all stand out quite a bit more than Nightmare.

I'll preface this by saying I have no skin in the game here. Never played any Bamco game except for Pac-Man and Dig Dug. In my opinion from a more casual outsider's perspective, with Tekken taken outback, I will say Dark Souls and Soul Calibur totally feel like the more likely and plausible as characters if we get someone else from Bandai Namco at this point.

They have way fewer games but as individual game sales go, they both seem to do better worldwide than Tales of at a glance. They also seem to bring in more variety to Smash. Nightmare is this meaty monstrosity while Chosen Undead seems to be a more classic knight-looking character. They feel like the character Sakurai and Nintendo would gravitate more too. They could get more attention in general than Lloyd or Yuri would. Plus I can imagine other people I know or the average joe hearing about Soul Calibur or Dark Souls. I'd be fine with any of them since I've never played their games but that's the impression I get.

Nightmare's design is such a cursed-looking thing, for lack of a better word, that I would have to disagree hard on him not standing out. I would prefer and feel Scorpion should be more likely but MK's got a big problem in the "worldwide" department.

 

[cothero]

Speaking personally, I played Soul Calibur way before I even knew about Tekken, and while I do like Heihachi, Nightmare is way more interesting and would probably be much easier to implement into Smash if I had to guess.

Still, my bet is on Lloyd/Yuri if we were to get another Namco character (maybe Dark Souls, but I have pretty mixed feelings about that) and as far as fighting game characters go, Chun, Sol, or even Scorpion all stand out quite a bit more than Nightmare.

I completely agree that those you cited above stand out Nightmare easily as possibilities, but Bamco is directely involved with the game, so Nightmare would be a very easy character to be negotiated.

But let's be real here: you really think MK gets a chance to be represented in smash?... Not only NetheRealm studious would be involved in negotiations but Warner Bros. itself. Chun Li and Sol are completely plausible choices, but as my most wanted character, Scorpion's inclusion seen like wishfull thinking for me.

 

[Gnateb]

It's still crazy to me that Dark Souls is on Switch. It even got it's own spot at the end of the direct, too, in a CG trailer. That bonfire lighting was such a hype moment for me.

The Solaire Amiibo is oddly useless at the moment, considering it's one of the few third party ones out there. The only game it is specifically compatible with is DSR, and even still, it's pretty useless. All it does is give you a cosmetic gesture, which you can get through normal play, in a single game.

Smash, despite being the series that caused Amiibo to exist (though I know they've expanded since) has no "generic Amiibo support", for some reason. They keep adding spirit functionality for many different Amiibo, but there are a few that are still in the dark. It would've been pretty easy to just reward non compatible Amiibo scans with coins/snacks/support items, like many other games do, in my opinion. For some reason they haven't.

 

[SharkLord]

What do you think this means?

It could ultimately be meaningless, but it could also just mean that they couldn't bring the Lloyd Mii back initially because they'd need his license. That on it's own could also go anywhere; Maybe they just got him later on and released his Mii later, maybe they decided "Y'know what, let's just make him a full-on fighter." I'll have to check as to how much Kosuke's involvement has been needed for Lloyd beyond Smash.

 

[RGFS]

I completely agree that those you cited above stand out Nightmare easily as possibilities, but Bamco is directely involved with the game, so Nightmare would be a very easy character to be negotiated.

But let's be real here: you really think MK gets a chance to be represented in smash?... Not only NetheRealm studious would be involved in negotiations but Warner Bros. itself. Chun Li and Sol are completely plausible choices, but as my most wanted character, Scorpion's inclusion seen like wishfull thinking for me.

I'd bet negotiations are the least of Scorpion's worries. The talks would likely solely be with Warner and then character implementation would be discussed with Netherrealm similar to how Nintendo negotiated with Microsoft but then worked with Rare and Mojang respectively.

I'd love him in, but the real problem is Scorpion and MK are just incredibly unpopular in Japan to the point where the MK team didn't even bother releasing the game there. The fighting game scene in Japan is very committed and tough to hook so MK not really ever catching on there isn't surprising. It just makes me think that Nintendo and Sakurai wouldn't feel inclined to add a character who is such a hard nobody to them that they didn't port him in.

Sure there's Mac and Samus but they're from Nintendo and their games are at least sold over there. Sakurai does seem to prioritize worldwide popularity and the west according to him but recent choices like Hero and Terry have opened the door for 3rd party characters who struggle in the west. Though, we haven't seen a third-party character who struggles in Japan become a fighter... yet. Scorpion is just in a bad position right now behind characters like Nightmare who has seemingly seen success worldwide.

It'd be a character from a game the region Smash is from wouldn't be able to even play... they got to see the movie at least I guess.

Actually, I'm not sure how I feel about seeing a fighting game character this Pass If I'm honest. I think Min Min might've possibly filled that spot this Pass.

 

[Golden Icarus]

I completely agree that those you cited above stand out Nightmare easily as possibilities, but Bamco is directely involved with the game, so Nightmare would be a very easy character to be negotiated.

But let's be real here: you really think MK gets a chance to be represented in smash?... Not only NetheRealm studious would be involved in negotiations but Warner Bros. itself. Chun Li and Sol are completely plausible choices, but as my most wanted character, Scorpion's inclusion seen like wishfull thinking for me.

Yeah Scorpion is a bit more of a stretch, but I still do believe that MK is worth taking somewhat seriously. It has the huge hurdles of being both obscure in Japan and absurdly violent - way more violent than any other series currently repped in Smash. However, it’s still the best selling fighting game franchise of all time (save for Smash), even outselling SF and Tekken. Even if those are almost exclusively Western sales, it just goes to show how much of a cultural phenomenon it is over here. That alone makes it worth mentioning when bringing up fighting game characters. If Terry was supposedly chosen for his South American popularity, it isn’t wild to think that Scorpion might be chosen for his North American popularity.

 

[SharkLord]

I'd bet negotiations are the least of Scorpion's worries. The talks would likely solely be with Warner and then character implementation would be discussed with Netherrealm similar to how Nintendo negotiated with Microsoft but then worked with Rare and Mojang respectively.

I'd love him in, but the real problem is Scorpion and MK are just incredibly unpopular in Japan to the point where the MK team didn't even bother releasing the game there. The fighting game scene in Japan is very committed and tough to hook so MK not really ever catching on there isn't surprising. It just makes me think that Nintendo and Sakurai wouldn't feel inclined to add a character who is such a hard nobody to them that they didn't port him in.

Sure there's Mac and Samus but they're from Nintendo and their games are at least sold over there. Sakurai does seem to prioritize worldwide popularity and the west according to him but recent choices like Hero and Terry have opened the door for 3rd party characters who struggle in the west. Though, we haven't seen a third-party character who struggles in Japan become a fighter... yet. Scorpion is just in a bad position right now behind characters like Nightmare who has seemingly seen success worldwide.

Actually, I'm not sure how I feel about seeing a fighting game character this Pass If I'm honest. I think Min Min might've possibly filled that spot this Pass.

I find it a bit hard to say "There's a dedicated fighting game slot" when we had three slots in FP1 dedicated to just JRPG protagonists, and then another two slots in FP2. Don't think genre is much of a concern.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I find it a bit hard to say "There's a dedicated fighting game slot" when we had three slots in FP1 dedicated to just JRPG protagonists, and then another two slots in FP2. Don't think genre is much of a concern.

Not to mention people thought Min Min being the opener meant that there was a "dedicated Nintendo slot" that they decided to just get out of the way.

 

[RGFS]

I find it a bit hard to say "There's a dedicated fighting game slot" when we had three slots in FP1 dedicated to just JRPG protagonists, and then another two slots in FP2. Don't think genre is much of a concern.

Oh yeah, it's not much of a concern but it's something seemingly reasonable to keep in mind. The difference is how big the install base of RPG games is to the gaming industry is compared to the average install base of fighting games. For the most part as a genre, they are more niche. It's just that they get boosted in Smash speculation because Smash is a fighting game.

A lot of the RPG repetition also makes a little more sense because of how different they can really be. Dragon Quest isn't really the same kind of RPG as Fire Emblem. The same goes for Final Fantasy and Xenoblade y'know? Contrast this to fighting games, platformers, or shooters.

Do I think we should only get one character per company or one per genre per Pass? Definitely not, especially if they're so varied. It just seems to be how they're structuring things. I'd love to see more gunners back to back or more characters from similar genres but it's not as easy to say someone like Master Chief could release alongside or in the same pass as Gordon Freeman, a GTA rep, Doom Slayer, or even Duke Nukem despite how cool and different they would all truly be. Some of these characters have a problem appealing worldwide too.

Nothing I'm specualting here is a guarantee but I feel saying this particular way of thinking has no legs to stand on is very wishful thinking.

 

[Will]

But let's be real here: you really think MK gets a chance to be represented in smash?

Why yes, how could you tell?

Don't be worried about negotiations when Nintendo was the one asking for an MK11 port to Switch that sells a lot better than you think it does.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Contrast this to fighting games

To be fair, ARMS is very different to what's normally called a fighting game to the FGC, which is why if there's supposed to be a "fighting game slot" in every DLC cycle, there's people who think Min Min didn't fill it.

 

[Will]

I told you I was doing it, I just never told you when. Y'all gonna learn today. Bootleg Smashboards article time.

View attachment 306751
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The Super Smash Bros. series roster has more than doubled within the past decade with an insane jump from 35 playable characters in Brawl to the base roster of 74 total characters in Ultimate, with now 80 total characters and counting with current DLC. This massive jump is not only thanks to the hardworking efforts of Sakurai providing Ultimate the ultimate experience by bringing back all previously playable characters, but also by expanding their horizons on what characters are introduced to the game. Since Brawl, third-party non-Nintendo characters started as a guest duo of Sonic and Snake to now well over an eighth of the current roster spanning from various franchises, companies, and genres. This begs the question of who isn't eligible to join the roster?

Characters from M-Rated video games and/or from games with heavily violent content have been a tricky subject when it comes to plausible Smash Bros. inclusion. Although the characters Snake, Bayonetta, and Joker come from these mature-rated games, characters from franchises with notorious amounts of gore, blood, and other violence have been perceived as having no place in Smash's harmless fantasy violence. These include characters such as Bethesda's Doom Slayer from the DOOM franchise and the star of this piece, NetherRealm Studios's Scorpion from the Mortal Kombat franchise. Though while the Doom Slayer does appear to have a cult following and an understanding of plausibility from the core Smash speculation scene, Scorpion is perceived in the opposite fashion. However, many of these skepticisms are based on multiple pieces of misinformation, of which this piece will dissect, debunk, and prove that this hellspawn ninja is more precedent than you may first think.

Spoiler: Dumping the rest here because there is a lot to say

Before we start, what even is Mortal Kombat? And why is it important?
View attachment 306760 View attachment 306766
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Mortal Kombat is a fighting game series by the now-defunct Midway Studios that first hit arcade cabinets in October of 1992. Between its current rivals of SNK's Fatal Fury and Capcom's Street Fighter II, it was a smash hit. It was praised for its, at the time, realistic graphics using digitized renders of real-life actors that were filmed and then converted into the game and violent trademark Fatality ending moves that depicted graphic ways to kill your opponent after winning the match. In the United States, it had even usurped Street Fighter II during the holiday season of its release year just three months after its release. By the time it had gained its notoriety in the United States for its graphic violence in the 1993 Congressional hearings, 3 million units were already distributed. I'll get back to the hearings soon.

View attachment 306765
Grabbed from magazine Play Meter Vol. 18, no. 13, December '92.
​

It was such a smash hit that it had spawned an entirely new genre of fighting games that used its art style of digitized actors; similar to how Fatal Fury and Street Fighter's success spawned a wave of less successful imitators. Surprisingly, even Capcom had tried it with their two different versions of the video game adaptation of their movie adaptation of Street Fighter II. Mortal Kombat had countless sequels since its inception, with the trilogy of Mortal Kombat, Mortal Kombat II, and Mortal Kombat III (and its update UMK3) continuing to dominate the arcade charts for years while being critically acclaimed by critics and gamers alike. And on top of that, home console versions were also selling millions of units per entry with great reviews. It was on the SEGA Genesis and Super Nintendo, where although the SNES MK1 was notorious for having its blood permanently censored (the Genesis version was also censored, but had a well-known blood-enabling cheat code), the blood returned for all future installments, which is one of the first seeds of misinformation being how much Nintendo actually supported its graphic content at the time. The awkward handling of the first game's port was mainly due to...

The 1993 Congressional Hearings and the Present Day Kombat​

The U.S. Senate held a hearing discussing violent video game franchises in December of 1993 and March of 1994. These meetings discussed the concerns of parents who believed that violent video games would have a negative effect on children as the technology evolved to display more graphic scenes in realistic fashions in an unregulated manner. To Congress, they believed that the industry was purposefully marketing violent content to children and threatened to take action. Four games were brought into the spotlight: SEGA's Night Trap, ID Software's DOOM, Konami's Lethal Enforcers, and of course, Mortal Kombat. These hearings forced the industry to create the ESRB rating system we have today in the United States.

Mortal Kombat by this point had become the most well-known violent video game. And though that would seem to detract it from audiences, the Kombat train was still going stronger than ever. By the turn of the century, home console versions of Mortal Kombat Trilogy and its first dive into 3D with Mortal Kombat 4 were well-received and sold well. However, the series had begun to enter a decline entering the 2000s, selling fewer copies per entry, and eventually, the main publisher of the franchise Midway Studios became defunct in 2009. However, the series was purchased by WB Interactive and repurposed as NetherRealm Studios, and the franchise made a massive rebound when Mortal Kombat (also known as MK9) released in 2011. It alone saved the franchise after being acquired by WB and launched a new era for the series.

Following to the present day, Mortal Kombat 11 is beloved and is currently recorded to have sold over 8 million copies as of October 2020. It had even won Best Fighting Game in The Game Awards 2020. It is still going strong with a recently enhanced version for next-gen consoles on Xbox Series X and PS5. It has also been a juggernaut outside of the gaming scene. This is partially thanks to Warner Bros. owning the series and allowing it to flourish in multimedia formats. There have been comics, figures, cartoons, collaborations with DC, and currently three movies full-length with an upcoming fourth one in production. It is far bigger than one would initially expect.

That is practically all of the history you need to know of the series, but that doesn't solve why many believe a Mortal Kombat character is improbable. It has to do with misinformation being spread about various things. For starters...

Japan uses CERO
View attachment 306775 View attachment 306772​

The ESRB is only applied in North America. For Europe, there is PEGI. For Japan, their rendition is the CERO, which rates games slightly differently than how we do in the West. Mortal Kombat has an M-Rating in the ESRB. That equivalent in Japan's CERO would be a D rating, which is where the Metal Gear Solid and Bayonetta games are placed. Therefore, Mortal Kombat would also be in the same ranking, right? Not quite. Due to its excessive violence and gore, it actually receives a Z rating, the maximum rating that is equivalent to the ESRB's AO (Adult Only) ranking. However, certain acts of violence such as decapitation and massive amounts of blood loss are strictly prohibited and would have to be changed. Even the games listed above have some sort of censored violence that is uncensored in the Western release. Another example would be the No More Heroes franchise, where excessive blood is replaced with enemies turning into blackened ash.

Despite this, Mortal Kombat still exists in Japan.​

I've seen articles everywhere discussing bans on Mortal Kombat, saying that it's been prohibited from release. This isn't the case, the newer entries are simply unlocalized or were canceled releases, not outright bans. It isn't that Japan is banning these games from ever reaching store shelves, it is that WB Interactive doesn't want to pursue heavy censoring just to enter that market. However, that doesn't stop any Japanese player from playing any Mortal Kombat, even after the last official Japanese release being Mortal Kombat Trilogy on the PSX. There was even a televised tournament where Japanese players tried to defeat a blind American in Mortal Kombat: Deception, despite it never being localized. The blind player won, by the way.

Furthermore, there are two easy ways to play Mortal Kombat as a Japanese player:

1. Import the games. It's been done with both Mortal Kombat X and Mortal Kombat 11. You can do it on all platforms, even Switch.​
2. Play on PC, because CERO only regulates console releases. MKX and MK11 are available on Japanese Steam services.​

An audience for Mortal Kombat in Japan is also precedent. Although it is a more underground scene, you can find content either on YouTube or nicovideo where Mortal Kombat is being played. and the view count is substantial in thousands and sometimes millions. My point is that a player base exists in Japan. Of course, an official localization would mean more, especially to a Japanese company such as Nintendo. But they do know. In fact...

Nintendo is actually into Mortal Kombat and wanted it on Switch.​

At least, this was Nintendo of America's interests. When WB Interactive introduced MK11, they were concerned that the mature title would conflict with Nintendo's family-friendly console. However, they persisted that they actively wanted this title on their platform and were confident in their sales. Below is the panel from NoA representative Scott Hawkins and his discussion of Mortal Kombat 11's success on Nintendo Switch (the stream is in Portuguese, but the voices are in English):

​

And they were very much correct. Mortal Kombat 11 has sold extremely well on Nintendo Switch and even toppled Breath of the Wild and Super Mario Odyssey, even being yet another million unit best-seller. Go into the eShop right now and you will still find MK11 on their best-selling section of listed games still after being on the platform for over a year now. While graphically the game is lacking, it is a technical marvel for a Switch game and went well beyond Nintendo's original expectations, which was already positive. What does this tell us?

Nintendo is aware. Nintendo knows that there is an audience for Kombat.​

As long as CERO remains the same, Mortal Kombat will likely not see an official localization on Switch. But that is fine. Mortal Kombat was never even translated for its 90's era localizations; they're all in English. The knowledge that Nintendo has about the cultural icon that is Mortal Kombat is enough. You can argue adding a character such as Scorpion detracts from the charm of Mortal Kombat's violent themes, but that is similar to characters like the Doom Slayer or Ryu Hayabusa where violence held a key component in aspects of their games. It is not needed to fulfill the character, the character itself is represented to celebrate the video game industry, and this would be selling one of the best-selling fighting games to date; the third rival after Fatal Fury and Street Fighter.

Final Words​

The main message of this piece is not to say that Scorpion is a must-have that everyone must accept and open their eyes to. The cultural challenges of Mortal Kombat have persevered and clashed with Japan, but that doesn't make him an impossible inclusion, especially not the fact that it is an American creation that mostly sticks Western. After all, Banjo Kazooie is prominently known to be a bigger success in the Western market than in Japan. Four playable characters in the game are designed by Western companies (with Dark Samus being one American-designed character). SNK (and by translation, what Terry Bogard brought) dominated the Latin-American scene with the NEOGEO more than its Asian scene. Much like how a series that's predominantly popular in Japan that isn't so paraded in the West can and has gotten into Smash, the reverse can apply, and Mortal Kombat is a shining example.

Mortal Kombat's history might appear to paint it in a negative light, but the inclusion of the rating systems has benefitted the gaming industry; as it had prevented government involvement in the industry that could have done far worse. Nowadays, the games and series that were once brought to court in 1993 are beloved. You can buy DOOM and Night Trap on Nintendo Switch eShops today. To say that Scorpion would be impossible is to also assume that the Doom Slayer must also be impossible, even if he was able to localize into the Japanese market.

Again, I am not saying to expect Scorpion or to think he's a priority. I am saying that with the information we have of him, we understand that Nintendo recognizes the Mortal Kombat franchise and respects it. They understand both it and its history as both one of the biggest fighting games and game series in history. My goal was to correct the constant misinformation I have heard about him and to clarify that the shaky history of the franchise overseas does not disqualify him or any other Kombatant. And I hope I was able to deliver.

Just don't be surprised if the day comes where Mario gets hooked by a kunai and dragged away to Hell Netherrealm in a Smash trailer.

I'm pretty late to the Mortal Kombat talk but here's my entire rundown on Scorpion. I think I did a good job on it. Don't sleep on this man.

 

[cothero]

Yeah Scorpion is a bit more of a stretch, but I still do believe that MK is worth taking somewhat seriously. It has the huge hurdles of being both obscure in Japan and absurdly violent - way more violent than any other series currently repped in Smash. However, it’s still the best selling fighting game franchise of all time (save for Smash), even outselling SF and Tekken. Even if those are almost exclusively Western sales, it just goes to show how much of a cultural phenomenon it is over here. That alone makes it worth mentioning when bringing up fighting game characters. If Terry was supposedly chosen for his South American popularity, it isn’t wild to think that Scorpion might be chosen for his North American popularity.

I like your optimism. Thank you for that.

 

[SharkLord]

Oh yeah, it's not much of a concern but it's something seemingly reasonable to keep in mind. The difference is how big the install base of RPG games is to the gaming industry is compared to the average install base of fighting games. For the most part as a genre, they are more niche. It's just that they get boosted in Smash speculation because Smash is a fighting game.

A lot of the RPG repetition also makes a little more sense because of how different they can really be. Dragon Quest isn't really the same kind of RPG as Fire Emblem. The same goes for Final Fantasy and Xenoblade y'know? Contrast this to fighting games, platformers, or shooters.

Do I think we should only get one character per company or one per genre per Pass? Definitely not, especially if they're so varied. It just seems to be how they're structuring things. I'd love to see more gunners back to back or more characters from similar genres but it's not as easy to say someone like Master Chief could release alongside or in the same pass as Gordon Freeman, a GTA rep, Doom Slayer, or even Duke Nukem despite how cool and different they would all truly be. Some of these characters have a problem appealing worldwide too.

Nothing I'm specualting here is a guarantee but I feel saying this particular way of thinking has no legs to stand on is very wishful thinking.

A lot of the RPG repetition also makes a little more sense because of how different they can really be. Dragon Quest isn't really the same kind of RPG as Fire Emblem. The same goes for Final Fantasy and Xenoblade y'know? Contrast this to fighting games, platformers, or shooters.

And ARMS - The fighting game we got in FP2 - Is much different from most other fighting games, to the point that a lot of people have argued that Min Min doesn't count as the passes' fighting game rep. If we got Sol, or Scorpion, or Nightmare, people could easily tell that they're from much different games. And sure, there's Terry, but we already had a turn-based RPG in the last pass and that didn't stop Sephiroth.

At least when we're counting Min Min as the first fighting game character, I don't think Nintendo would mind a second that much.

 

[RGFS]

To be fair, ARMS is very different to what's normally called a fighting game to the FGC, which is why if there's supposed to be a "fighting game slot" in every DLC cycle, there's people who think Min Min didn't fill it.

And ARMS - The fighting game we got in FP2 - Is much different from most other fighting games, to the point that a lot of people have argued that Min Min doesn't count as the passes' fighting game rep. If we got Sol, or Scorpion, or Nightmare, people could easily tell that they're from much different games. And sure, there's Terry, but we already had a turn-based RPG in the last pass and that didn't stop Sephiroth.

At least when we're counting Min Min as the first fighting game character, I don't think Nintendo would mind a second that much.

Good catch! That is still why I think Nightmare does have a shot but the Min Min thing makes me think they might go with a Dark Souls rep instead is all I guess my mind was getting at.

No offense to Nightmare fans, he's dope but oh what I would do get Scorpion instead as the fighting game character. My brain can't shake the dirty feeling of how they don't want to even censor the games for Japan and the general lack of popularity there. It's like the one true hurdle for any character to me.

I'm gonna put on my tinfoil hat real quick. When Sephiroth got in, Sakurai made a joke that he had to jump from Minecraft to Final Fantasy 7 Advent Children, That's the movie, right? Well MK is getting the new movie actually released in Japan, it's out now for many of us but in Japan, it comes out in June. Aka E3 time! What if the Japanese release is being considered to release around that time to ride the Smash hype?? Maybe that's the spark that gets them to really release censored MK games in Japan? Sort of like a reverse Dragon Quest. Scorpion is also played by a famous Japanese actor.

This almost feels like the perfect gap for Mortal Kombat to get into Smash and I hate that it gives me a sliver of hope...

EDIT: Found a pretty solid point of view from a YouTube comment in a video about the MK movie coming to Japan.

Japanese native here. As for the games not getting released in Japan, I don’t think CERO is the only reason — I mean they could spend extra budget to tone down the game to fit CERO’s standards, but they choose not to, likely because the game itself is so dripping with super duper ‘murican aesthetics (including the ridiculously distorted stereotypical depictions of Asia) that you can’t possibly imagine a large number of Japanese gamers being interested in the game to begin with, even if you ignore the whole gore thing. The devs probably know that they can’t justify the extra cost of the Japan-specific modifications when it’s expected to appeal so little to Japanese gamers.

This all is something to consider about the future of MK in Japan. Maybe Smash is enough to still make it work well? Not sure, I'm torn on this. Worth also considering that maybe Scorpion might also be way cheaper to negotiate for because of this shortcoming in Japan??

 

[Cosmic77]

Personally, I don't even know why people feel like there needs to be a debate on whether or not ARMS qualifies as a fighting game.

After all the JRPG characters we've gotten, you'd think it'd be clear by now that Nintendo doesn't seem to care about representing genres equally and fairly. If they really wanted another fighting rep, I doubt Terry or Min Min would stop them.

 

[SnowClaws]

What do you think this means?

For context, Kosuke Fujishima is a renowned Japanese manga artist who create the beloved manga series You're Under Arrest (1986-1992) and Oh My Goddess! (1988-2014). Because of these two series, his name became a brand, and therefore anything he create is now under his copyright ownership.

Starting from Tales of Phantasia (1994, which is the very first Tales game), he has been one of the first Tales character designer and is the one who gets the final say on whatever his character look based on their appearance, the color of their outfit, their body size, and maybe the character's personality as well. Basically, if he creates the character, then he has the right to make the final overall decision, and it isn't up to whoever hired him.

For example, if I wanted Yuri Lowell to have a pink hair color and white color version of his outfit, then I have to pass my idea to Fuijshima, not Bandai Namco, in order to get his approval of this idea.

This whole situation is similar to Koichi Sugiyama who owns the Dragon Quest music, and not Square Enix. At least, this is my educated guess on this problem.

• Main character designed by Fuijshima - Cress, Lloyd, Luke, Yuri, Jude, Sorey
• Main character designed by Inomata (another copyright brand name) - Stahn, Reid, Veigue, Caius, Ruca, Kor, Asbel, Milla, Velvet, Mikleo
• Main character designed by Okumura (not a brand name) - Emil, Marta, Ludger

 

[epicmartin7]

Here's a preview of my first Spirit Pack! You might have to squint because... you can't really see him.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Here's a preview of my first Spirit Pack! You might have to squint because... you can't really see him.

View attachment 313130

John Cena from the Super Mario series? Man I wish I knew what he looked like. I bet he'd look really cool in Shigehisa Nakaue's art style.

 

[Bobthealligator]

Is Ryu not "deconfirmed"? It seemed pretty apparent, but some people are adamant that Yasuda wouldn't be "in the know".

The thing is at first it seemed like a bit of a non answer. But then he repeated the quote over and over again and it seems to me that that would 100% violate the terms of the NDA.

 

[ZelDan]

Here's a preview of my first Spirit Pack! You might have to squint because... you can't really see him.

View attachment 313130

Would it have been possible to make him a Fatal Fury or King of Fighter's spirit?

Because that's clearly where he would most belong

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Would it have been possible to make him a Fatal Fury or King of Fighter's spirit?

Because that's clearly where he would most belong

What’s even wilder is that the anime Seven Deadly Sins is canon to this game too l m a o

MELIODAS MET TERRY AND JOHN CENA I CANT

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

John Cena from the Super Mario series? Man I wish I knew what he looked like. I bet he'd look really cool in Shigehisa Nakaue's art style.

Well weirdly enough, two things:

1. There is indeed a WWE anime in the works https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/da...i-episode-anime-series-to-crunchyroll/.172179

2. Hulk Hogan already was drawn in anime (Miss Monochrome) so it's not THAT weird

Pic of the Day:

pic.twitter.com/p8lieq7Xut

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) April 29, 2021

he slime

I know it's not related and that he had nothing to do with Dragon Quest, but this being the pic of the day alongside the news that Shunsuke Kikuchi died (the composer for Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z)... I dunno, maybe it's the Toriyama connection, but that's all I can think of.

 

[Gnateb]

For context, Kosuke Fujishima is a renowned Japanese manga artist who create the beloved manga series You're Under Arrest (1986-1992) and Oh My Goddess! (1988-2014). Because of these two series, his name became a brand, and therefore anything he create is now under his copyright ownership.

Starting from Tales of Phantasia (1994, which is the very first Tales game), he has been one of the first Tales character designer and is the one who gets the final say on whatever his character look based on their appearance, the color of their outfit, their body size, and maybe the character's personality as well. Basically, if he creates the character, then he has the right to make the final overall decision, and it isn't up to whoever hired him.

For example, if I wanted Yuri Lowell to have a pink hair color and white color version of his outfit, then I have to pass my idea to Fuijshima, not Bandai Namco, in order to get his approval of this idea.

This whole situation is similar to Koichi Sugiyama who owns the Dragon Quest music, and not Square Enix. At least, this is my educated guess on this problem.

• Main character designed by Fuijshima - Cress, Lloyd, Luke, Yuri, Jude, Sorey
• Main character designed by Inomata (another copyright brand name) - Stahn, Reid, Veigue, Caius, Ruca, Kor, Asbel, Milla, Velvet, Mikleo
• Main character designed by Okumura (not a brand name) - Emil, Marta, Ludger

Do you think maybe Kousuke's involvement could have something to do with Lloyd's absence from Pac-Man's up taunt? I always thought that was weird.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

As of current the most likely fighting game characters I see is either Nightmare or Sol Badguy.

Recent speculation indicates we're probably not getting Chun-Li and Tekken is ruled out since Heihachi returned as a Mii and how Sakurai mentions that it was hard to implement its gameplay into Smash.

 

[SKX31]

I just know that one day, an Assist Trophy will be promoted in the same game as DLC, whether I like it or not. If that isn't potential karma, then God help me.

Btw, on the subject of Chrom, I know a way to make him a bit more unique: by making his side special Luna / Sol, in which Chrom dashes forward similar to Ike's Quick Draw.

Luna activates when you tap B or hold it before the charge is complete. Chrom simply dashes forward and launches the opponent; it's functionally identical to Ike's Quick Draw.

Sol activates when you hold B for long enough. Chrom dashes forward and launches the opponent high upwards. Letting go of B right when the tip of his sword flashes, the attack restores damage equal to half the amount of damage done to the opponent.

I do quite like the change - it'd let Chrom stand out a bit more on his own, for one.

From a more mechanical standpoint: one thing holding Chrom back a lot is that he has a lot of trouble off stage (regardless of the player's skill level) due to his very low double jump and fast fall speed. This is not meant to say that he would neccessarily be stupidly good if he got Luna / Sol, but I do think trading the more potent if a bit cookie cutter Side B for a recovery / longevity option would make for a more interesting Chrom mechanically.

Do you think maybe Kousuke's involvement could have something to do with Lloyd's absence from Pac-Man's up taunt? I always thought that was weird.

It's difficult to say partly since we haven't seen any Bamco characters become playable during base game / FP1 - that's more than enough time for Lloyd or any Bamco character to appear. It's also difficult to say since we don't know the internal politics between Nintendo, Sakurai / Sora Ltd. and Bamco - what the details of the agreement amounted to, how that agreement relates to characters other than Pac Man etc (assuming it does relate to other characters of course). OTOH the working relationship does kinda highlight Bamco in particular, and as long as that relationship exists it will "fuel the fire" so to speak.

This goes in particular with Kousuke's involvement I'd imagine - that while it's tempting to say that Sakurai at least considered contacting him for a full character appearance, something could've happened behind-the-scenes with Kousuke and Bamco and we just don't know. Or something else. Only way we'll know is if official info comes out one way or the other.

As of current the most likely fighting game characters I see is either Nightmare or Sol Badguy.

Recent speculation indicates we're probably not getting Chun-Li and Tekken is ruled out since Heihachi returned as a Mii and how Sakurai mentions that it was hard to implement its gameplay into Smash.

Taking a gander and saying it's likely the arcade Heihachi he's had issues imagining how that would work in particular (considering how not only Smash's resident FGC characters, but also characters like and borrow a lot from their arcade appearances). I could be wrong here, but still - Sakurai seems to lean on those roots quite a bit (which is understandable given he himself was a long-time arcade goer etc).