DK Match-up Discussion Thread REMOVE STICKY PLZ

[goodoldganon]

So ummm, not sure what you guys think about it, but it seems DK has an infinite chaingrab on the Mother boys. Look around the boards, it isn't hard to find. Personally, I think it is cheese and I won't use it but this thread is supposed to be compiling just facts.

 

[_Riot_]

I'd like to put a bit of input on matches not really covered yet, or matches i dont really think we're noted accurately.

Capt. Falcon - This poor soul gets out prioritized on almost every approach he has. An extremely nerfed version of his former melee self. He can however combo DK decently, good thing you can combo him better. Also watch for pivoted f-smash and forward-b from him, even so your approach should beat his forward-b as long as you didnt do anything to laggy as in wiffing a u-air or f-air, which you shouldnt be approaching with to much anyway. His only aerial that can kill is his f-air which should be pretty hard for him to land considering the hitbox and the low priority, his f-smash,d-smash, and his u-smash which he can run and slide with can kill, be careful. DK's b-air and u-tilt beat EVERYTHING HE HAS, not to mention Donkey Punch, mainly because, it beats everything. Difficulty 3 at best.

Sonic - From what i have seen in the meta-game of sonic as well as the sonic players ive faced, this looks alot like Capt. Falcon all over again. DK's Bair and U-tilt reign over his whole moveset, if he starts charging anyone of his B moves, face backwards and punish with u-tilt, if you have Donkey punch stocked: blow his face off and onto a game thats actually made by sega. His kill moves are pathetic especially due to DKs weight and his combo's are mediocre. His speed can be a problem just dont let him pressure you, you have more range, pressure, and KO potential, than he ever will. His f-air can be an annoying pressure on your shield, due to the multihit, it can poke through the shield, try to powershield this or just challenge it, it doesnt have much priority. Also difficulty 3 imo.

Jigglypuff - Jigglypuff mains around the world screamed in unison when they found out how nerfed his moveset was and how bad he molds with the new gameplay mechanics. His WoP (Wall of pain; a series of b-airs usually taking you off the stage and to the edge of the screen or off the screen to your death.) isnt really anything to worry about due to the new airdodge system. Jigglypuff also had his frame enlarged, making him a bigger target, not to good for him considering the priority on his aerial moveset now as well as spamming b-air isnt to practical due to diminishing returns. His rest was also nerfed to an extent, instead of being an excellent KO move that can destroy you at 20%+ it now kills at about 70-80%+ given character weight and DI. Again, this characters entire moveset can be beaten by DK's b-air or u-tilt. Also given jigglypuff is a lightweight he dies easily in the 70%+ and he should be killing you around the 150%, not so good for him. Difficulty 3

Lucario - We all know the high risk / high reward factor lucario has: the higher his %, the harder he hits. The problem for lucario is he is a light character, as well as DK is abundant in hard hitting KO moves, he will most likely never live passed 100%, with that being said, he isnt going to be able to get exceptionally powerful, add in DK's heavy weight and lucario now has a serious problem. Lucario does have some pretty good combo's, but for the majority of them they require him to be at a low percent making the combos not exactly good in the damage department, they are mostly just fustrating. If lucario is trying to camp with small aura spheres, you can easily hit them with jab, f-tilt, u-tilt, etc and make them disappear. Try not to be to predictable with your heavy hitting moves (Donkey punch or any of your smash attacks), if he counters them, you will pay for it. Alot of lucarios think and know their d-air is almost unbeatable when you are below it, however if spaced correctly, DK can U-smash and beat it, dont challenge it with u-air it will always lose. Difficulty 4

Marth - I find this match up extremely boring, you need patience to overcome this fight. First off in aerial terms, marth will be approaching with f-airs, and in DK's aerial terms, he will be approaching with b-air. Where this gets boring is the fact that when these two find themselves in the air, they for the most part tie, you are both delt the damage accordingly. For the most part, i do believe DK has a slight advantage in this match up, and the advantage is KO potential. DI is exceptionally important in this match up. If he is chaining f-airs on you DI down or away from him, odd concept i know, but it'll limit his f-air chains and might save you from a d-air spike. Having momentum in this fight is very key, he can pressure well with f-airs and forward-b, a bad roll or paniced move can cost you a stock. Watch shield grabs marth can space outside of your grab range quite easily, as well as dont be to hasty to grab him out of his forward-b chain, be patient wait for it to finish. Difficulty 4-5

Olimar - I wont lie here, im completely biased in this match up, i indefinitely think DK has an extreme advantage. For the most part from what i can see with peoples complaints is just inexperience with the match-up. I will admit though his grab range is quite pesky. Ok for the most part DK's moves kill every type of pikmin, but the purples in 1 shot, if he is hurling pikmin to rack up damage, kill them unless you are in mid-combo or mid-pressure, either with an u-tilt, u-air, or n-air you dont want to be taking unnecessary damage. Learn and remember what every color of pikmin does, it'll help you with the correct approach, the ones you really need to look out for is: yellow, purple, and blue. Forward-b is your best friend here, ive seen other DKs talk about it so i know its being used however: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FikvqC3n-8 what i do at 0:53 is: Instead of doing short hop double b-airs, i throw out the first b-air and instead of landing the second one i forward-b (pretty explainitory), what this does is gives you some height off the ground where a shield grab would wiff and boom their dumb *** is stuck in the ground. Where this comes in for olimar is under shield pressure, due to there long grab reach they will think they can grab you out of double b-airs, or they will try to d-smash out of shield, with this approach as a factor they will have to think twice about what to do while being pressured. Also gimping his recovery is entirely to easy, you can do it as early as 20-40%. Diffculty 3-4

 

[itsthebigfoot]

the bair to sideb thing is usually referred to as the shieldbreaker, but yeah, i find myself using it a lot. also, with marth, most of that is right, but what seems to happen to me is this, after the first stock, they give up on the air, and decide to space, which usually works well for you, until they start relying on sideb, which i haven't found a way around

 

[itsaxelol]

i love the marf match tho, for some reason ive never had a problem with it. id even say that dk > marth

side b can be a pain, i kind of feel embarrassed after it hits me a few times. when they stop playing their air game though you can predict it coming sooner than later, and a down b takes care of it. bairs ftilts and
down b, and marths predictable recovery make this fight pretty easy

 

[Ripple]

I'm probably going to update at least 3 characters by friday but then not again for 2 weeks because of finals

 

[Vaul]

Sheik+Squirtle=The manifestation of DK's nightmares. As you've already got info on Squirtle, I'll focus more on the former.

At first glance, many people feel that Sheik's been severely nerfed since Melee. The massive degradation of her chaingrabs, aerial game, and KO potential seemingly appear to be her new coup de grace. However, unlike the transitions for most of the Melee cast, Sheik kept her combo game. Against larger framed characters (i.e. DK), her ftilt, dtilt, utilt, and grabs all combo into one another. At lower percents, this can be especially devastating against DK with his lack of quicker moves to counter with. At mid to high percents, Sheik's fairs actually combo into eachother; her edgeguard game can be brutal. Her needles, while somewhat nerfed, still put the pressure on DK and force him to close the gap....almost always leading into a tilt combo. No jk. Srysly.
Her speed is among her greatest assets against DK. Dash attack->Dash attack->Fair/cancelled nair->dsmash. Or her amazing dash grab. Whatever her mood is, its all pwnage.

Her power nerf notwithstanding, she still has plenty of KO potential. Namely the buffs to her usmash, fsmash, and upb (which has invincibility frames, btw) are all dangerous, not to mention the undiminished dsmash, bair, and even nair. Gimping sheik will actually be a bit more difficult for DK than with other characters. As stated, the 'pre-vanish' Sheik is invincible; the frames at which she vanishes have a large, disjointed hitbox as well. She is only vulnerable upon landing on the ground, yet most of the time a wise sheik will just go for the ledge (not to mention her tether option).

So, what does DK have in this matchup? Range, power, and better priority/SA frames on certain moves. Yet even the effectiveness of these qualities is minimal in this matchup. A defensive Sheik (oxymoron?) will pressure with needles and use her speed when she sees an opening. While ftilts and dtilts are solid options for DK, the mid-length distance is the only distance when their best effective (too far=outofrange, too close=tilt combo, one of hers clanks with one of yours). Her speed will allow her to inevitably close this safety zone.

Depending on Sheik's style, DK's ftilt, upb, and downb will counter her ground approach. Fighting in the air, however, is really up in the air (um....pun much?). The victor will ultimately be whoever as 'Stage Control' (SRK lawlz), as in who ever controls the center and forces the opponent to be above them. Being above DK is never, ever a good idea, and this is no exception. For DK to win, he's going to have to utilize upthrows, uptilts, dsmashes, etc. to get her ontop*. Yet in the end, equally skilled players, depending on stages and styles, will eventually wind up having Sheik win most of the matches. Amen.

Before anyone says TL;DR, I'll post this as a reward: http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/05/this-is-brutal-remember-how.html
Kthx bai.














*Sheik prefers it on bottom.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

uhhh shieks fair gets eaten by dks upb, and while the combos still exist they can still be DI'd, also, sheiks grabs and utilt don't combo well, because they have too much knockback, sheik might have kept her ftilt combo, but she also kept her recovery, and when transferred into brawl, it isnt that great, you can gimp her, and you kill quick, its not a breeze, but its not a nightmare.

P.S. squirtle is the second lightest character, SA bpunch > squirtles aerials

 

[NJzFinest]

Ok, I'm finally gonna put some of my input into this thread.


Fox can Dair DK but DI in back of him to not get punished before spamming up tilt's. Also, he can approach with SH Fairs, which do 25-18 damage. It can be "auto-canceled" and also he has massive DI in that move, so it's impossible to punish and can always lead to an uptilt combo if need be. I personally think his approach is better now, but whatever. Anyways, Fox way too good at racking up this damage, as Cort mentioned, so all he has to do at 105%ish is shield drop to dash upsmash, gg. Fox is good at keeping his diminished moves strong since many of his moves hit more then once and his grab repeating A move hits very fast. He'll get 9 moves in no time (takes 9 moves to replenish a diminished move). That and the fact he's one of the few characters that can actually combo adds to how he gets damage quick, especially on slower characters.
Also, Fox never has to approach DK, DK basically always has to go to him (or else Fox can just shoot lasers).

Kirby and Wolf shouldn't be that high. Kirby dies far to easily and get's outspaced by everything. DK is actually my Kirby counter.

Wolf isn't that great of a character to have such a lead over DK. Both of the other space animals have wwaaayyy more then Wolf. Falco is probably a 10, CG to spike of stage or CG to laserlock, gg. CGing to laserlock is waaayyy to easy on fat people and "fast fallers". If DK doesn't want to get grab and stays away...then prepared to get spammed.

ROB should probably be an 8 since he never has to approach, sidestep to dsmash all day, one of the few characters than can actually edgeguard, and so forth. Funny thing is, if ROB places a top next to the edge when DK grabs it, DK can't do anything. He' s to fat to simply ledge hop to anything, or even get up with a ledgeroll. He's almost always forced to do a jump from the ledge, which ROB would be prepared for...gah, he's too gay. Idk though, might just be me since Kirkq keeps ****** my DK with ROB.

Samus might be alittle higher because of spam and her nice Grapple Beam cancel, maybe...

 

[Browny]

Ness seems to be the harder one of Ness and Lucas, but he’s still a even fight for DK. His spike hits hard, and can kill you at 20%, so avoid it like the plague, other than that you have the upper hand everywhere, his pk fire to downthrow combo will put up 30% pretty quick, but you will not die against him until the late 170’s so it doesn’t really matter. Shield his pk fires, and if he tries to spam them, ftilt, your ftilt has almost as much range as pk fire, and comes out faster, so if he spams you get to rack up 40% on him. You can gimp him easily from the ledge, and any smash attack will get him close to death at around 40%, on top of this you kill him at 60-90%, while his only attacks that kill before 170 are his spike, his fsmash, which is easy to see coming, and his pk thunder ness missile thing. Really easy fight if you shield the multiple hits from his fair and running attack.

Ness's bthrow is instant death to heavyweights at 130%, if you happen to be on one side of the stage or another, it can kill DK as early as 110%. when it combos directly out of PK fire, you cant take this move lightly.

and DK's recovery is succeptible to PKT2. ness can just sit back while you recover, wait for DK to get over the ledge with spinning kong, and line you up for a free shot with PKT2, which can kill DK at around 70%. again, dont underestimate the potential of this move, if your recovry isnt absolutely perfect, you will get punished, and probably take an extremely cheap death every time

 

[itsthebigfoot]

you do know the first hit of dks upb beats out pkt2


and njz finest, you can jump out of the falco CG after 10%, so the laser lock and spike combos don't really work

 

[Linguini]

No, you cant jump out at 10.

 

[_Riot_]

Yea, the falco you play must be doing something wrong, with good DI you can get out around the 60-70% area.

In my opinion the only bad match up DK has, is falco.

 

[Tenki]

I'll admit to not having read past the first page, but does this thread still get updated anymore?

The Ganondorf info seems horribly out of date, and their metagame's changed alot since March.

Also, requesting the DK side for the Sonic matchup.

 

[Ripple]

not with my finals being all this week, I will update this next week, stop worrying.

 

[Vaul]

also, sheiks grabs and utilt don't combo well, because they have too much knockback

tilts->grab, not vice versa. sheiks utilt has significant knockback? uhh...I recommend watching Azen's Sheik. He flows straight from tilts to grab to aerial; just a sampler of Sheik's potential.

P.S. squirtle is the second lightest character, SA bpunch > squirtles aerials

Do you spam bpunch or something? Yea DK's SA frames are awesome, but you shouldn't rely on them THAT much; there are far better strategies. DK's one of the few characters squirtle can escort off the stage. dont underestimate the incredibly fast turtle (complete paradox, r they high?)

 

[_Riot_]

tilts->grab, not vice versa. sheiks utilt has significant knockback? uhh...I recommend watching Azen's Sheik. He flows straight from tilts to grab to aerial; just a sampler of Sheik's potential.




Do you spam bpunch or something? Yea DK's SA frames are awesome, but you shouldn't rely on them THAT much; there are far better strategies. DK's one of the few characters squirtle can escort off the stage. dont underestimate the incredibly fast turtle (complete paradox, r they high?)

Squirtle just plain shouldnt be giving dk a problem. I play PT as well, and the only thing i can see that squirtle has on DK is a smaller frame and slight mobility.

 

[Nicktendo]

Yea, the falco you play must be doing something wrong, with good DI you can get out around the 60-70% area.

In my opinion the only bad match up DK has, is falco.

I think pit and toon link are dumb to for DK.. projectile spam spam and dumb quick

and Dedede one grab can infinite stand chaingrab you :/

But falco is my least favorite... I hate it

 

[Brahma]

ROB should probably be an 8 since he never has to approach, sidestep to dsmash all day, one of the few characters than can actually edgeguard, and so forth. Funny thing is, if ROB places a top next to the edge when DK grabs it, DK can't do anything. He' s to fat to simply ledge hop to anything, or even get up with a ledgeroll. He's almost always forced to do a jump from the ledge, which ROB would be prepared for

Can't you drop, then jump~airdodge to grab the top?

ROB is a ***** though, Dair spike owns DK UpB.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

this thread needs more information about wolf.

 

[Nicktendo]

I lost in tournament to a wolf this weekend, but it was Mango so..

And I have no wolf experience

 

[Brahma]

Read the first post, how does Yoshi counter DK?

Also, I find Dsmash beats out a lot of Squirtle SH aerials.

 

[Ripple]

eggs beat DK pretty handily. If you've ever played a good yoshi then you would know

 

[YoshiKongBarkley3000]

I read that DK is a snake counter? Is that true and/or possible.?

 

[Cyphus]

no, not at all.
its still in snake's advantage, but i wouldn't say snake "counters" DK. DK has much worse matchups like DDD and Pit. DK vs Snake is still winnable, unless time changes that.

 

[Brahma]

Can't eggs be cancelled with Uair and Bair? Is that all Yoshi has on DK? DK still beats out Yoshi in the ground and air with range and priority.

 

[Vaul]

With the exception of DK's bair, which is absolute godliness, IMO Yoshi beats DK in the air (Yoshi's uair is his best kill move, no lag on contact or landing, more priority than G&W's key, and nair kills, fair spikes well, bair and dair are great for setting up combos, downB kills off the top nicely). But DK's anti air game is just unfair really, so he's still able to respond to Yoshi's air game with ease. On the ground DK has a solid game against Yoshi, but Yoshi's eggthrow and buffed grab game should make things interesting.

Overall, DK might have a small advantage over Yosh, but not enough to warrant him as a yoshi 'counter'.

 

[Ripple]

Can't eggs be cancelled with Uair and Bair? Is that all Yoshi has on DK? DK still beats out Yoshi in the ground and air with range and priority.

no they don't cancel unless you have no hitboxes of yourself in the attack boxes, simply put that nothing DK has stops eggs except for up b which cancels his movement and adds a great deal of lag to DK. yoshi also has pivot egg toss/grab which destroys dk's range and priority

 

[Cyphus]

Ripple is right. Anyone that disagrees just hasn't fought a good Yoshi.
Yoshi has a very simply playstyle against DK: Eggs, pivot grab, double Jab, and b.air to UpSmash.
thats about all you need.

but anyway...DK's isn't all that great. he's mid.
IMO all these characters give DK alot of trouble.
Fox, Pika, GW, Pit, Meta, Falco, Snake, Yoshi, Ice, DDD, Toon, Rob. (in no order)

 

[Linguini]

Ripple is right. Anyone that disagrees just hasn't fought a good Yoshi.
Yoshi has a very simply playstyle against DK: Eggs, pivot grab, double Jab, and b.air to UpSmash.
thats about all you need.

but anyway...DK's isn't all that great. he's mid.
IMO all these characters give DK alot of trouble.
Fox, Pika, GW, Pit, Meta, Falco, Snake, Yoshi, Ice, DDD, Toon, Rob. (in no order)

You don't know what your talking about, the only people that Dk has a disadvantage against are Falco, Pikachu,and DDD.
All the rest are even or an advantage for DK.

DK goes even with MK and Snake, believe that ****.

 

[Brahma]

I've found my biggest problem matches for DK are DDD(duh), Falco, and Olimar.

There's been talk about a grab break/escape in the tactics board. Something about perfect timing of hitting A immediately when they grab. This would make all of these a lot better matches for DK.

 

[Cyphus]

You don't know what your talking about, the only people that Dk has a disadvantage against are Falco, Pikachu,and DDD.
All the rest are even or an advantage for DK.

DK goes even with MK and Snake, believe that ****.

whoa, no need to make this personal. Both of us are experienced smash "veterans" from melee and are experienced enough to make knowledgable matchup judgements....i just think your personal experience is probably alot different from mine.

Personally...i dont find pika that hard. I've exchanged wins with Anther (by far most incredible pika i've seen)....and i've found non-pro Pit players to give me more trouble.
I'd bet you have not fought a great Yoshi player, and you would think twice about it, if you did.

I intended to just list those that can give DK alot of trouble, i never said "counter".
Obviously Falco and DDD counter him...the rest may be debatable at this moment though.


AIM me at TheCyphus, Linguini. I saw your DK, its good. I'd like to see whose is "better"... (at DK dittos, lol)

 

[Brahma]

I don't find that DK has much trouble vs. Pika either. Thunder is a pain because of DK's big hitbox, but you should be shield>spotdodging or DIing out of Dsmash so it shouldn't be an issue. Tunder jolt is easily tilt/bair canceled, and DK outranged just about everything else Pika has on the air or ground.

 

[YoshiKongBarkley3000]

I found out that Olimar is also another DK counter. How do you combat Olimar as DK?

 

[Kyle_Wattula]

Don't unsticky thread and lock as it still has LOADS of very important info. Seriously, without this there's only 3-4 useful threads left.

Ripple is da man

 

[Linguini]

I found out that Olimar is also another DK counter. How do you combat Olimar as DK?

Olimar is actually really easy for DK, just space yourself with tilts to avoid grabs and bait him with bairs. Once he's off the edge you can either get an easy edgeguard or simply grab the ledge.
Back to melee son.

 

[Brahma]

. Against a beginner Olimar, that may work, but a good Olimar is a lot tougher than that. He can shieldgrab all of DK's tilts and aerials. A grab from Olimar will usually leave DK with 25+% damage because of how easily he is comboed.

It's tough to bait him with Bairs because shield grab will catch low Bairs, and a high Bair goes over his head. If you do an immediate Bair from SH, Oli can latch a pikmin onto you with >B. If you do an attack to try and remove the pikmin, he gets a chance to shieldgrab.

It's really hard to try and approach Olimar because of his shieldgrab. I like to pressure with immediate SH Bair to keep him grounded, then mix up the followups. Also, DK can DI over Oli after Bair, and land on the other side to pressure. You have to mix it up though, because Olimar can consistently punish pretty much anything DK can do. This is a match where you can't play DK's normal game. Bairs don't work as well, DownB doesn't work as well, Ftilt/Dtilt don't work well. You really have to adapt and rework DK's game to fight Oli.

 

[Linguini]

. Against a beginner Olimar, that may work, but a good Olimar is a lot tougher than that. He can shieldgrab all of DK's tilts and aerials. A grab from Olimar will usually leave DK with 25+% damage because of how easily he is comboed.

It's tough to bait him with Bairs because shield grab will catch low Bairs, and a high Bair goes over his head. If you do an immediate Bair from SH, Oli can latch a pikmin onto you with >B. If you do an attack to try and remove the pikmin, he gets a chance to shieldgrab.

It's really hard to try and approach Olimar because of his shieldgrab. I like to pressure with immediate SH Bair to keep him grounded, then mix up the followups. Also, DK can DI over Oli after Bair, and land on the other side to pressure. You have to mix it up though, because Olimar can consistently punish pretty much anything DK can do. This is a match where you can't play DK's normal game. Bairs don't work as well, DownB doesn't work as well, Ftilt/Dtilt don't work well. You really have to adapt and rework DK's game to fight Oli.

Nope,not a beginning olimar at all. I beat Icekid's Olimar and he's won a bunch of tournaments in Florida with them, and it was cake.

It may be hard to apporach Olimar with other chars but olimars grab game gets decimitated by dk's tilts and down-b.

 

[Brahma]

I'm glad that you beat one Olimar, I've beaten several myself. But that doesn't change the fact that the matchup is stacked slightly in Olimar's favor. A defensive Olimar is tough to get around.

DK's tilts do not decimate Olimar's grab game. Let me repeat what I said again: OLIMAR GETS A FREE GRAB AFTER BLOCKING ANY DK TILT. Olimar's grab outranges all of DK's tilts as well. He also gets a free grab off of any Bair low enough to the ground to hit Olimar. What does that leave DK to attack with?

DownB outranges standing grab, barely, but it's too slow to consistently use, and risky as well. If Olimar uses dash grab, he gets grabbed out of it. Plus, Olimar can SH and toss pikmin onto DK over your DownB, which DownB won't kill since they aren't on the ground. If you have 2-4 pikmin on you, you need to get them off, or they will do anywhere from 15-40%. If Olimar has SH'd the pikmin, they land on DK's head. The moves that will get them off DK's head are: Utilt, Uair, UpB. If DK uses Utilt or UpB, Olimar can go in for a grab. If he does Uair, Olimar can boost Usmash, which hurts, or SH more pikmin and reset the scenario.

If you approach with tilts on the ground, you get grabbed. If you approach with low Bairs to hit him, you get grabbed. Olimar gets at least 20-30% per grab, if not more, plus mixups in his favor afterwards.

 

[YoshiKongBarkley3000]

what about using his up b any to approach olimar? will that work?

 

[Brahma]

UpB on the ground can be grabbed by Olimar, since he sends out a Pikmin for the grab it's disjointed. UpB in the air eats Usmash.