Discussion: SSBU needs more ground mobility - I'm not talking about wavedashing.

[ssjayy]

TLDR; add the option to cancel dash with a crouch. You can pseudo dash dance and perform tilts out of it too this way.

I enjoy playing smash 64, melee, and project m the most. Anything from Brawl and onwards wasn't my cup of tea so of course I love wavedashing. But this topic isn't about that - let's be realistic and reasonable here. There's no way wavedashing is going to return because Sakurai is calling the shots; so what are some ways that we can improve ground mobility without the use of wavedash? Dash canceling via crouching (not crouch canceling - that's similar by referring to something different).

We definitely won't be getting dash dancing back so the only reasonable addition that not only improves mobility but it can also adds more options. Not only can you cancel your dash into a crouch and then run the opposite direction for a quasi dash dance but you can also perform tilts out of crouches. This is the most simple way of adding more mobility and options without making it technical which Sakurai seems to want.

If they add this, I might actually consider playing Smash U. I'd like to know what your thoughts about this are and if there's any way where something as simple as this can be added in the game? I really don't think adding something like this would take much time at all nor does it alter the game in a negative manner. As much as I would love a melee 2.0, I don't need it. I just want to have more control over my own character without that unnecessary silly turnaround from dash animation. I don't know why they ever took this out from the first place.

Edit: Apparently you can't run past people in their shield... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL2wQv8CGTo Was this in Smash 4? This is seriously a turn off for me. This takes away options when it wasn't even toxic to begin with.

Update: https://youtu.be/ua612JuJNmg?t=3m30s Hurray you can cancel dash into anything.

 

[Khao]

It's worth mentioning that it's confirmed you can actually do any Smash/Tilt out of a dash now (as opposed to just Up Smash like in Brawl/Sm4sh). No need to crouch first.

 

[ssjayy]

That's good to know. I was under the impression you can only do smash attacks. But that still doesn't give us the mobility option where I can change directions quickly without that silly turnaround animation imo.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

That's good to know. I was under the impression you can only do smash attacks. But that still doesn't give us the mobility option where I can change directions quickly without that silly turnaround animation imo.

That's the difference between Smash 4 and Ultimate. You can run and perform your tilt in the same direction you're running. In Smash 4 you could tilt and smash out of a run, but only during a turnaround which wasn't very helpful for anything other than footsies. In this new game it seems like it's your skid animation that gets cancelled into those moves so it should be easy to perform. No crouch is necessary for these moves like in Melee/PM.

The new grounded options give me a lot of hope. In Smash 4 you ran up to people and pulled up shield or did a short hop aerial since those were less commital. With tilts out of run, that should increase potential for horizontal combos and just add more options to approach with.

 

[ssjayy]

Are you able to downB out of dash too then?

Update: apparently you can't run past people in their shield...? This is according to Zero. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL2wQv8CGTo
Seriously that's really dumb. That's further reducing mixups/approaches/options. What did they see that was so harmful in running past a player?

 

[Emblem Lord]

They are forcing you to play legit neutral. You cannot rely on jank.

 

[NowInTeknikolor]

Are you able to downB out of dash too then?

Update: apparently you can't run past people in their shield...? This is according to Zero. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL2wQv8CGTo
Seriously that's really dumb. That's further reducing mixups/approaches/options. What did they see that was so harmful in running past a player?

Ness turnaround grab to bthrow.

 

[ssjayy]

Ness turnaround grab to bthrow.

That has nothing to do with running past standing opponents - just Ness. I don't know how bad that is but its a simple fix: reduce base knockback for bThrow; besides, I doubt it's anything broken like ko'ing at 50%.

 

[wiiztec]

I thought people were saying dash dancing was back

 

[Katy Parry]

Are you able to downB out of dash too then?

Update: apparently you can't run past people in their shield...? This is according to Zero. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL2wQv8CGTo
Seriously that's really dumb. That's further reducing mixups/approaches/options. What did they see that was so harmful in running past a player?

Are you serious? Can you run through someone in real life? No, Theres a PERSON there
Can’t run through your opponent in ANY traditional fighter. It’s forcing you to play neutral from your side, just like a sport. Like soccer. This is my side right now, and this is yours.

 

[Mister M]

I was under the impression that the no running through shield was a bug but I guess it could be real. While cutting options is generally less fun, not being able to cross up shields isn't disastrous. The reason smash is so fun is because of mobility but as emblem lord said, it may generate a more honest neutral. As long as there's still options that allow someone to get to the other side I'll be happy

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

You can turnaround while dashing and do an attack at the same time or smash. Discovered by max ketchum.

 

[GHNeko]

They are forcing you to play legit neutral. You cannot rely on jank.

fgc neutral doesnt need to be added to smash lmao

or rather fgc neutral isnt the only legit neutral

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dash attacking through shields is stupid fam.

Don't play wit me dawg.

You know I'm right.

 

[Luigifan18]

They are forcing you to play legit neutral. You cannot rely on jank.

Define legit neutral and jank.

 

[-Tornado-]

Is there any word on dash momentum carrying into your first jump?

 

[ssjayy]

I was under the impression that the no running through shield was a bug but I guess it could be real. While cutting options is generally less fun, not being able to cross up shields isn't disastrous. The reason smash is so fun is because of mobility but as emblem lord said, it may generate a more honest neutral. As long as there's still options that allow someone to get to the other side I'll be happy

Upon reading some comments, I have some hope left. I would love this "bug" to be left out. I feel a more "honest" neutral isn't worth losing mix-ups.

Dash attacking through shields is stupid fam.

I agree with that. If you commit a dash attack into a shield, it should be coded where it doesn't travel past the shield so they can be punished.

Is there any word on dash momentum carrying into your first jump?

Would love to know this too. I dunno about smash 4 but brawl retained no momentum at all when jumping out of dash.

Are you serious? Can you run through someone in real life? No, Theres a PERSON there
Can’t run through your opponent in ANY traditional fighter. It’s forcing you to play neutral from your side, just like a sport. Like soccer. This is my side right now, and this is yours.

Yes I'm serious. I don't think you should ever use real life as an example for any fighting games; I think that's self explanatory lol. Secondly, smash isn't a traditional fighter. I don't know about smash 4 but in all iterations prior to that, you can run through the other players so I don't understand where your statement is coming from.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yes I'm serious. I don't think you should ever use real life as an example for any fighting games; I think that's self explanatory lol. Secondly, smash isn't a traditional fighter. I don't know about smash 4 but in all iterations prior to that, you can run through the other players so I don't understand where your statement is coming from.

in smash 5 you can’t run past a shielding player.

this is going to suck for doubles.

 

[ssjayy]

in smash 5 you can’t run past a shielding player.

this is going to suck for doubles.

Great point... I didn't even think about that. But as mentioned, could be a bug and hopefully it'll be patched out.

 

[Big-Cat]

Upon reading some comments, I have some hope left. I would love this "bug" to be left out. I feel a more "honest" neutral isn't worth losing mix-ups.

We have a neutral with more options on the ground and throw breaks. We'll be more than fine.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Is there any word on dash momentum carrying into your first jump?

It's far from a confirmation but Dabuz seems to think so but he's definitely not sure

Would love to know this too. I dunno about smash 4 but brawl retained no momentum at all when jumping out of dash.

Wasn't the case in Smash 4, and that's why I'm skeptical that it suddenly appeared in this game. Would be nice. Smash 4 characters can get far offstage for an edgeguard, but they can't get sufficiently far very fast so they generally stick to just protecting the ledge itself with awkward results for both players.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I remember seeing Fox retain forward momentum during a running jump, but only when he did his forward air. I’ll find the video in a bit.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Oh and as for moving through shields, I have evidence of one dash attack getting through. Though maybe that only worked because dash attacks are not the same as a typical running state. Still a lot of questions that need to be answered about this but some moves will still crossup.

 

[GHNeko]

Dash attacking through shields is stupid fam.

Don't play wit me dawg.

You know I'm right.

Yeah. THAT one thing is dumb homie, but removing the ability to cross up shields periods is ?????

I know you aint with that.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

It’s pretty whack honestly, but I’m thinking about applications.

Considering that we have so many options out of dash now, I guess having the inability to cross up outside of dash attack, and from what I’ve seen, jabs/multi hits, it forces you to use your moves appropriately. Given that we have the option to dash dance and do anything out of it means that you can pretty much shut people down.

we also have wavelanding, and if it functions to where you can slide of ledges with it, then that would imply that the want players to get imaginative with shield pressure. As well as utilize rolls to cross up, which may actually get you punished.

There is also the ledge issue where people who get up and shield are typically pushed back or back thrown off stage. This would mean the opponent would have to roll to set you up rather than just run in and shield.

This still seems like something that is way too strong defensively, and negates a lot of the aforementioned movement options. This makes pivoting a defensive mechanic rather than an offensive one.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Definitely seen a lot of dash attacks, aerials and some Fsmashes crossup on shield as normal. So instead of an engine change, it's really just a specific nerf to Fox's side B. Not being able to run past a shield though? Pretty wack. I can't imagine why they'd do that from a competitive perspective.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So it is specific to side B's and dash cross ups?

Man such trash.

I was willing to accept it if it meant NOTHING crossed up.

Ok ok. Change it back.

Or not.

Death to side B's through shield regardless.

**** is dumb.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

The point of Fox’s illusion is to cross up the opponent. That’s dumb as ****.

I hope this and the can’t run past shield thing are some of the errors the Sakurai said he’s fixing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Got that neutral bypassing garbage out of here.

Or just neuter the hitbox and expand the hurtbox.

Whatever.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

M2K playing Mewtwo. Shows some pretty solid gameplay.

 

[Mister M]

Watching footage, it looks like you can push people holding shield by walking into them.

Could b cool

 

[spinalwolf]

Dash dancing is twice as good as it was in smash 4. Might not be as good as Melee dash dancing but its a pretty solid option in neutral I would imagine.

 

[Katy Parry]

I was under the impression that the no running through shield was a bug but I guess it could be real. While cutting options is generally less fun, not being able to cross up shields isn't disastrous. The reason smash is so fun is because of mobility but as emblem lord said, it may generate a more honest neutral. As long as there's still options that allow someone to get to the other side I'll be happy

What this does is if you get someone in a position, you keep your stage control easier. Someone is on ledge and they can't run past you to get away. You worked the neutral to get them into that position, so now they can't just get away. They have to earn back their stage control. That is 100000% what this game needs. It doesn't ruin mix ups. It prevents you from easily losing stage control after you've earned it.

In any traditional fighter, this is like getting backed into a corner. The only way to get out of a corner typically is to jump over your opponent. So if someone wants around you, they must jump which you can call out on.

 

[ssjayy]

M2K playing Mewtwo. Shows some pretty solid gameplay.

I saw the dash to dTilt! The marth player didn't really know how to play - you can tell from the amount of rolling he was doing although it was an entertaining match nonetheless.

What this does is if you get someone in a position, you keep your stage control easier. Someone is on ledge and they can't run past you to get away. You worked the neutral to get them into that position, so now they can't just get away. They have to earn back their stage control. That is 100000% what this game needs. It doesn't ruin mix ups. It prevents you from easily losing stage control after you've earned it.

In any traditional fighter, this is like getting backed into a corner. The only way to get out of a corner typically is to jump over your opponent. So if someone wants around you, they must jump which you can call out on.

That's a good point but I don't think it outweighs the neutral game. I rather it goes back to where you can run past shields.

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Onq0QQSxrlc Zero also thinks that running past shields should be fixed.

 

[SubduedHypeSmash]

You all realize it's a 3D game (2.5D if you wanna be picky) and that you run around the other character right?

And last I checked you can walk around people in real life too.

It not like everyone's perpetually trapped in a narrow hallway for all of eternity.

 

[SubduedHypeSmash]

Are you serious? Can you run through someone in real life? No, Theres a PERSON there
Can’t run through your opponent in ANY traditional fighter. It’s forcing you to play neutral from your side, just like a sport. Like soccer. This is my side right now, and this is yours.

You know it's a 3D game and that you can walk around people in real life right?

You don't need to turn around and go the other direction if someone walks in front of you.

Also, literally any fight in real life isn't fought in a straight line.

Boxing has a square, UFC has a hexagon, even soccer has a huge field where you can, surprise surprise, walk around people.

 

[Katy Parry]

You know it's a 3D game and that you can walk around people in real life right?

You don't need to turn around and go the other direction if someone walks in front of you.

Also, literally any fight in real life isn't fought in a straight line.

Boxing has a square, UFC has a hexagon, even soccer has a huge field where you can, surprise surprise, walk around people.

Right but surprise surprise surprise - you can't run through an ape standing in your way at the exit of the zoo - you run the other way lmao

Also, were NOT talking about walking AROUND them. Were talking about going THROUGH THEIR BODY, you can't do it in traditional fighters. You can't do it in soul Calibur, Tekken, Street Fighter, Virtua fighter. Smash Bros as we all know used to be dragon fighters. Nothing was ever supposed to be outta wack and silly and crazy. Nintendo characters and a party label made that happen. So yeah, traditionally I'm sure he intended on that. He comes from an extensive background of influence, But didn't matter because it was a party game.

 

[Crystanium]

That has nothing to do with running past standing opponents - just Ness. I don't know how bad that is but its a simple fix: reduce base knockback for bThrow; besides, I doubt it's anything broken like ko'ing at 50%.

Ness' back throw is more powerful in SSBU, but I'm not complaining. People just need to learn to DI properly. Ness has always had a back throw that could kill in every game, and because he was garbage in pretty much every game, it seems people only truly noticed Ness' back throw in SSBWU, since he's a good character. I find it odd that I never hear anyone complain about Lucas' three kill throws, though.

 

[ssjayy]

You all realize it's a 3D game (2.5D if you wanna be picky) and that you run around the other character right?

And last I checked you can walk around people in real life too.

It not like everyone's perpetually trapped in a narrow hallway for all of eternity.

As much as I'm for walking past shields, I don't think we should ever compare smash to any real life scenario because that's hypocritical. I'm discussing specifically about smash compared to other iterations of smash. There's absolutely no point in comparing it to other fighters too because they have different philosophies. I just want this game to have great potential for the competitive scene so we can relive our smash experience as I did with Melee.

Update: https://youtu.be/ua612JuJNmg?t=3m30s this is a great demonstration what you can do with dash now. Its very simple to perform and provides a lot of options. If the opponent you're facing has a slow startup for bAir/nAir out of shield, I can definitely see this being extremely useful.