Discussion of Best Stages and Worst Stages for Marth

[Proverbs]

Since I didn't see any threads created discussing Marth's good and bad stages I thought it'd be nice to create one to get some creative thinking going on here.

My goal is that at the end of this topic we will possess a list of every tournament legal stage and a 1-10 rating of how good it is for Marth, to further better our counterpicking strategies, as well as know what we're in for when it comes to a certain stage.

So, to begin, let's discuss possibly the most well known stage in Melee: Final Destination.

I, personally, find Final Destination to be an even stage for Marth. It's not amazing for him but doesn't really seem to inhibit him greatly. The biggest problem for Marth on this stage is its size. The thing is so huge that it's harder for him to get horizontal kills, which are the majority of your kills--except for spikes. That isn't made any easier being that the edges are so far apart from one another. On a stage like Fountain of Dreams or Battlefield, the option of spiking is easier when you have a smaller stage. Still, this stage doesn't have any large obstacles in Marth's way, so I'd give it a five out of ten for being an avarage stage for Marth.

This is probably a good time for me to outline the rating system. 1 is terrible, as in you'd NEVER want to go there with Marth unless you're prepared to lose, 5 is avarage being that it doesn't detract or add greatly to Marth, and 10 is amazing as in the stage you want to use almost every time except for very character-specific counterpicks.

So, if anyone's interested, let's let this discussion continue. And if you want to mention which characters or types of characters Marth can do well against on a certain stage and rate it that way, that would help even more.

P.S. Now that I think about it, this would be a good stage in a matchup against someone like Zelda where there's a lot of room for Marth to use his f-throw chaingrab at early percents.


--Bard

 

[SHDW23]

i would rate FD higher, probably 7. depending on the opponent, it can take away options for avoiding projectiles because of the lack of platforms. but the lack of platforms also allows marth to make full use of his good ground speed and wavedash. i also think that the size isn't that big a factor because of marth's good edge guarding game, especially when compared to dreamland. in addition, the lack of off stage hazards, such as a barrel cannon or a stage which you can get stuck under (like dreamland) or corneria's lasers, and the long distance to the bottom wall (or floor i guess), unlike on yoshi's story and battle field, allows marth to make full use of his vertical recovery, especially the almost completely vertical up-b

 

[S.D]

Yoshi Story 10.

Nuff said

 

[Brightside6382]

Yoshi Story 10.

Nuff said

Dream Land 0

 

[eskimo bob]

neutral stages for me would be (of course they all depend on the opponents character too so I'm just gonna make a rough approximation):

FD: 5 - 7
DL64: I honestly dunno lol. I think the stage isn't that good for marth, but it doesn't exactly gimp him so... 2 to 4?
BF: 6 - 9
YS: 7 - 10
if you would consider PS as a neutral then I guess that would get a... 6?

 

[Proverbs]

unlike on yoshi's story and battle field, allows marth to make full use of his vertical recovery, especially the almost completely vertical up-b

While that's true, that also gives more room for characters with good recovery (like Fox) to be able to spike and et out of there. Whereas on Yoshi's Story, especially they cannot see you as well down there and are risking their own lives, and have no clue when you're going to use Dolphin Slash, whereas that can be more predictable on FD.

But seeing your points I'd give FD a 6 about now.


As for the others discussing other stages, we'll get to those at a later time, let's focus on FD for now.

 

[SHDW23]

While that's true, that also gives more room for characters with good recovery (like Fox) to be able to spike and et out of there. Whereas on Yoshi's Story, especially they cannot see you as well down there and are risking their own lives

But seeing your points I'd give FD a 6 about now.

fair enough.

 

[Tee ay eye]

I'd give Dreamland a 3.5 or 4. Although it's his WORST neutral, it's not bad to the point where he's like, guaranteed a loss.

FD: 7
YS: 8
PS: 5-6
BF: 5
FoD: 4 (I just feel awkward on it)

Although Marth loses his platform smashing and stuff on FD, he's one of the best jugglers in the game, and FD helps with that.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I'll agree with FoD being awkward. It's worst as C. Falcon though =P

What about the other non-neutrals that are left out? Mute City, Poke Floats, Corneria, etc.?

I'm not a fan of the cars on Mute City, and the tunnel with the reduced vision upsets me, but the rest is to my liking.

Poke Floats and Corneria make me sad though, 'cause they screw up my sword arc.

 

[Proverbs]

XD I love Fountain of Dreams, but I can understand people feeling awkward using Marth there. Still one of my favorite stages, same with Dreamland.

Mute City seems neutral for Marth. I hate the stage, but it's okay for him. I don't know if that stage really compliments anyone.

Poke Floats I'd give a 6 or so, really. I think someone mentioned that they thought it was bad for Marth, but I don't mind it at all. It also doesn't seem to be too hard to stay on the correct path with Marth there. Then again I haven't played against many good players on Poke Floats. Most refuse to play on it T_T;;

Corneria I hate with Marth. Love the stage, hate it with Marth. Overall it's not a terrible stage with him, but I'm just not a fan of it. The only part I like about it is the fact that you can Ken Combo from the fin of the Great Fox (just before the drop where the slope arcs upward). A couple of times I've Ken Combo'd from the ledge of the fin and knocked them just past the end of the ship. Not sure what I'd rate it, though.

But let me ask a question of the posters here: Do you want to have detailed discussions on each stage or just talk about your general ideas of each stage? The former will lead hopefully to a stage guide for Marth, which would definitely be a great addition to this board, and something that I wouldn't mind at all putting together (and of course giving credit to everyone here who helped). The latter, however will just lead to a small forum where we talk about how we feel playing on each stage, which is just sharing of opinion, rather than building on what we know and offering new insight into how we play on each stage.

Personally, I'd prefer the former but this thread seems to be leaning toward the latter. Ideas? If you guys don't want to have a formal discussion I could just gather whatever notes from here and put the guide together on my own. Either way this should be an interesting way to help Marth players get better.


--Bard

 

[SHDW23]

mute city is apparently (i don't have much experience of my own) a great counter pick vs sheik (this came from a post by elvenarrow in the thread "stages"). i think it deserves a 6 since it doesn't hinder marth in any particular way and it does give him a counter pick against a tough match-up.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Ahhh! Don't quote me on that >.< I'm not the one who came up with it.

I think the point of Mute City was that there were no ledges so it makes Sheik easier to edgeguard, which makes up for Vanish invincibility/distance.

I dunno though, numbers don't mean a whole lot to me. I think we can just list stages and chip in pros/cons with them, as well as some specific character matches that are generally even/hard for Marth.

 

[SHDW23]

well i agree with you elvenarrow: not having to worry about sheik getting to the edge makes that match easier. unfortunately the more i think about it the less i like mute city for marth, the long lag on his up-b leaves him open to punishment if you aren't careful/lucky. not to mention that the cars mess with his ground and shffl game and the generally platform-less stage setup don't give him any help either.

 

[Proverbs]

Ahhh! Don't quote me on that >.< I'm not the one who came up with it.

I think the point of Mute City was that there were no ledges so it makes Sheik easier to edgeguard, which makes up for Vanish invincibility/distance.

I dunno though, numbers don't mean a whole lot to me. I think we can just list stages and chip in pros/cons with them, as well as some specific character matches that are generally even/hard for Marth.

When compiling this at the end both descriptions AND numbers will be provided. The numbers are used so you can rank which stages are best for him--but some stages will be listed as better than others against certain characters. I'll probably only include his biggest threats.

 

[S.D]

XD I love Fountain of Dreams, but I can understand people feeling awkward using Marth there. Still one of my favorite stages, same with Dreamland.

Mute City seems neutral for Marth. I hate the stage, but it's okay for him. I don't know if that stage really compliments anyone.

FoD is an awkward stage, but is pretty good for marth as he retains control of the platforms at most times. Very good vs cpt falcon.

Mute City is not a horrible marth stage. It actually does compliment peach players who will counterpick it often, so consider mute city as a stage ban if you're more confident on dreamland against peach.

 

[KirbyKaze]

FD is good for Marth, in like every matchup except IC and Falcon so yeah I'd say it's like a 9 or a 10.

After that it's primarily spacies, Sheik, and Falcon who give him any sort of problems on any platform stages so yeah...

Dreamland is good vs everything but like Falcon and Sheik. 7

Stadium is good against everything but Falcon, and space animals. 7

Battlefield is good against everything but space animals and Sheik. 7

Yoshi's is good against everything but Fox (kind of) and Sheik (kind of). 8

FoD is good or decent against everything but Sheik and Peach. 7

Nothing neutral should be below a 7 because Marth ***** pretty much everyone but Sheik, Fox, Falco, and Falcon on the neutrals.

 

[QuickSi1ver]

Is this really a thread?


Small stages where marth doesnt get owned by people with projectiles get a 10.

 

[SHDW23]

Is this really a thread?


Small stages where marth doesnt get owned by people with projectiles get a 10.

is this really a post?

 

[ShadowBlitz]

Small flat stages are definately the stages for Marth. Places like Fountain of Dreams, Final Destination, Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium, and there are tons more that I'm pretty good in while using Marth.

Although stages that move/don't have a flat surface are the stages that Marth should hate. Stages like Poké Floats, Icicle Mountian, etc.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Icicle Mountain is banned though...

Also, I wouldn't really consider FD or PS a small stage...

 

[KosukeKGA]

All neutral stages are good with Marth. Don't choose a CP stage...

FD or YS... your choice. Both **** the spacies. I like Pokemon Stadium for some reason, though.

DL64 is quite gay, though. U-Tilting from platforms only is at a bad advantage. And also the Marth glitch on there. >_>

 

[elvenarrow3000]

You like PS? I hate it... with the wonky ledges and random areas you can't roll past and the sloped, blocky terrain and the weird vertical barriers and reduced visibility during stage changes...

>_<

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I wouldn't say that FD is a good marth stage in itself, it's good against characters you can chainthrow though (ie fox).
YS and FoD are **** marth stages.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

What's so great about FoD? The moving platforms and shffl eaters just feel awkward to me, and they don't really set up very well most of the time, just make it so that you can eat a dsmash to the head.

 

[ArcNatural]

What's so great about FoD? The moving platforms and shffl eaters just feel awkward to me, and they don't really set up very well most of the time, just make it so that you can eat a dsmash to the head.

I can't think you could fail to notice that Marth's Fsmash covers about half the stage. Simple fair to fsmash combos to edgegaurding or just throwing off edgegaurding is what makes Marth great here, since his edgegaurding is pretty disgusting.

 

[KosukeKGA]

The F-Smash can get the edge a lot lower on FoD, I heard.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I haven't heard the getting lower on FoD thing... you're sure that's not YS?

I guess the edgeguarding is nice, but I still hate the platforms, especially when they randomly pop you up onto them while they're going down and mess up your edgeguarding.

 

[unknown522]

FD - 10
YS - 10
PS - 8
FoD - 8
BF - 9
DL - 8

counterpicks = lol
mute - 6
brinstar - 7
japes - 5
green greens - 7
kongo - 6

 

[Proverbs]

Since I was away last week, today I'll add my reviews for two stages.

Battlefield-- 9/10

Platforms do wonders for Marth and that combined with the small area of Battlefield, projectile spammers will have a harder time nailing Marth here. Also, given the proper height, an enemy can be spiked from anywhere on this stage. Now it won't be often that you'll spike someone from the middle of Battlefield, but knowing that you have the option to spike them anywhere on the stage is a good one. It's times like these that I love the fact that Marth's spike goes diagonally.

Also, I don't see Marth getting Battlefielded a whole lot here either. I don't know about you guys but it seems that Marth's Dolphin Slash can get around the edges easily enough.

And back on the topic of the small stage: Marth's incredible reach is all the more abusable here. I love using Marth here. Only problem is that I feel that it's harder to use Marth's f-smash to kill here. The horizontal KO barrier seems to be further out. The good part is that since there is a closer bottom KO barrier, recovery is still made difficult and this also gives Marth's great edgeguarding game a chance to shine. Even so, the lack of closer horizontal barriers is what leaves this as only a 9/10 (Not to mention that the close vertical KO barriers don't really help Marth and can only lead to early KOs for someone like Fox against Marth).

Fountain of Dreams--8/10

Some people may say using Marth here feels awkward, but I disagree. The platforms are good enough, Marth's sword reaches far enough, recovery isn't painfully difficult and I even find that edgeguarding lower on this stage is harder, meaning that Marth can make it back more easily when he recovers low. Personally I find this to be a sort of never-fail stage for Marth. It seems to me like a stage you can't really go wrong with. But let me know your opinions on this. Why do you find that Fountain of Dreams feels awkward and could potentially be a bad choice for Marth?

 

[Dark Sonic]

My list of stages from best to worst.

Neutrals

Battlefield-This stage is Marth's bread and butter. The platforms are the perfect height for everything Marth does, from F-smash to uptilt to even shffl'd aerials. The platforms are located very close to the edge as well, making any combo off of them that much more lethal (and allowing for edgeguarding with almost no extra setup). The far horizontal blastzones are actually more of a plus than a negative on this stage, as while Marth still gets full use of his recovery, a lot of other characters have to deal with the funky battlefield ledges. And lets not forget that Marth's edgeguarding is his primary method of getting kills, so it's not neccesary to kill them off the sides. Just do some off stage edgeguarding and let them fall to their doom. The only real drawback of this stage is the badly placed third platform. It's ceiling height is actually pretty average, it's just that the third platform is really high.

10/10. When in doubt go battlefield. Heck, I even use battlefield as my counterpick against Shiek, because he's just that good on it.

Yoshi's story-Everyone knew that this was next. It's platforms are great, but once again that third platform is in a terrible position. What makes it worse is that the cieling is so low here. Unlike battlefield, your kills will not be the result of edgeguarding most of the time, but rather just killing them off the side. This stage is a great counterpick against lighter characters, as well as characters with subpar recoveries. The high floor prevents some characters from getting the most out of their recovery, and makes sweetspotting difficult for others. The angle of the hills on the edges also allows Marth to hit much lower than normal for even more edgegaurding goodness. But Shiek and Fox may cause you problems here.

8/10-even though small stages are a good thing for Marth, this stage feels a little cramped. The platforms are too close to each other and give faster characters too much freedom of movement. But it's still an amazing stage for Marth.

Final Destination-Here we have a level with absolutely no platforms, a high ceiling, and far off edges. And yet Marth still dominates here. The stages advantages are really matchup specific here. The lack of platforms makes chaingrabbing incredibly usefull, and against non space animals, the lack of platforms allows Marth to essentially camp with good spacing, as the opponent has no way to get around you. Marth can easily control the stage, and although his combo ability is a little hampered by the lack of platforms it still gets the job done. But you have to be warry of the stage's size, as fast characters (Captain Falcon), will be able to abuse it to keep you from pressuring them. Also note that Falco can be a pain to deal with here (not nearly as much as FoD though).

7/10-It's still a great counterpick, and allows Marth's stage control game to really shine. The problems occur when you fight a character with better stage control than you, as you'd have no real way to get out of it.

Foutain of Dreams-Now there is a lot of controversy over this stage, but I think it's mostly because people aren't used to playing on it. The platforms are indeed a bit low, but the key here is to use them for not for combos, but for pressure. At their lowest points, Marth's fair will hit someone standing under the platform, and on the flipside, Marth will cover the whole platform with his f-tilt, f-smash, and uptilt. When the platforms rise, you just treat them like battlefield platforms. The top platform also helps more than it hurts in this case, because although it's still high, it isn't as close to the other platforms and thus it's harder for your opponent to use it to escape platform combos. The major downfall of this stage is not Marth related, but rather that Shiek does so well on it that it's like counterpicking yourself. Shiek destroys Marth here, and you can bet that they'll switch to her if you counterpick this stage Not a problem if they're bad, but if they happen to second Shiek (which a lot of people do), then you'd be better off fighting their main somewhere else.

6/10. It's a good Marth level, it's just too bad that it's also a great Shiek level.

Pokemon Stadium-If the stage always stayed in it's neutral position, I'd consider the stage to be with the likes of Battlefield. The platforms are great for all of Marth's uses, and there's no third platform to escape to. But sadly, the stage changes and not one of the changes is really benifitial for Marth. The water formation has some nice platforms, but in general dealing with the stage changes will involve going to the flatest part of the stage and trying to fight there, or just camping on the other side of a medium. The neutral stage itself is also a little to big, and the cielling is a bit low. The horizontal kill zones are in a very nice place though, making it easy to kill lighter characters, while still not hampering your recovery to much.

6/10-The changes just help other characters more than you. Great stage otherwise

Dreamland. This is the one neutral that I almost always ban. While the platforms are still useable, they're less effective than every other stage's platforms. And once again, you still have that third platform for people to escape to. The horizontal blast zones are too far away, and even though you'd still get kills through edgeguarding, you'll have problems against characters with better recoveries, or rather characters whose recoveries got better because of the shear size of the stage. Be prepared to have characters like Fox and Falcon just running all over the place with you having to chase them.

5/10. On the plus side, it does have a high cieling, but it's still something you wouldn't want to be counterpicking against 90% of the characters, because you have so many better options.

I'll do counterpicks later.

 

[Zelareth]

I find I do best on Battlefield and usually Fountain of Dreams as well but for some strange reason I get ***** there specifically against my brother's Captain Falcon.

 

[Havokbringer]

I think this topic is too Situational to be answered without question.Reason being that people suck at the certain stage, diffrent char means different exploits and people might just suck at playing a certain char no matter what stage.

I think this should be changed to what your best options are on certains chars on certain stages.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

You die to Falcon on FoD? Falcon is terrible on FoD...

As far as counterpicks go, I think Battlefield and PS are good against spacies, mostly because of the wonky edges. DK64, too, for the same reason.

Mute City against Sheik was already mentioned...

FoD against Falcon.

 

[Proverbs]

What do you guys think about pokefloats? I'm currently undecided. But I was wondering how it'd be as a counterpick.

I'll do my own idea of it a bit later, I have to run but wanted some feedback first.


By the way: 500th post!

 

[KosukeKGA]

Hold it!

No. That stage is bad. Always at least try to go for the neutral stages.

Marth has low maneuverability on that stage.

 

[Prince Of Fire]

Poke Floats in my opinion is a horrible Marth stage. Camping characters such as Link, Fox, and Falco can pretty much own Marth here. At no point in the level is there anything that really sticks out as being useful for Marth. Yes, you can get quick horiz kills but so can any other character with a decent fsmash...so he does not exactly have a HUGE advantage here....more of a neutral.

For some mystical reason I REALLY like fighting on Dreamland...I'm a Marth main and it's probably my second favorite stage to fight on in the game. Than I'd have to say my next favorites are FD, than YS, than BF...

Yeah, I know YS and BF are his favorite stages but i've fought on FD and Dreamland so much that I just love fighting on them...I got used to them.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I don't like Poke Floats because it messes with the arc of your sword. Corneria is similar in that respect.

I like Dreamland too. It's a big stage, really open, and the platforms are nice for comboing. Sure you don't get free fsmash tippers, but that kinda thing is not that much fun anyway.

It's also good for ledgeteching because I don't have to worry about SDI'ing under the stage.

Hey, Prince of Fire, you hate Brawl? Weren't you the one pushing for it before?

 

[Prince Of Fire]

I'll give you the short story of my Brawl experience


When I realized the game was just full of noobs who camped-I stopped playing and came to my senses that Brawl will NEVER compares to Melee....its just true.

I WANTED Brawl to be good and have that potential...but its clearly a slow, noob version of Melee...thats the quickest way to put it.

 

[Proverbs]

Camping on Pokefloats? Is that even possible? <.<;; The stage is moving so much o_x;;

 

[Shai Hulud]

Camping on Pokefloats? Is that even possible? <.<;; The stage is moving so much o_x;;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l-XQQ1Yg

Poke Floats is the campingest stage in the game. I know because my Fox is super campy =)