Discussing 3.5 changes!

[ꓰspeon]

Fair has more reach.
His spot dodge is better.

Fair has the same horizontal reach as 3.02, although it starts high now and goes in a descending arc, which makes it overall more useful.
Spot dodge is longer, with +1 IFrame and +1 endlag frame, so eh, it's a bit of a mixed bag.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Yeah I meant more vertical reach.

-Spotdodge intangibility +1 frame, IASA +2 frames

I read this wrong. Spot dodge is actually 1 frame worse if I'm reading this correctly now.

 

[Heroofhatz]

Dair no longer gets stuck on low platforms like Warioware.

Fair has more reach.

I believe Up-B can no longer be crouch canceled, though its invul was shifted. Technically could be a big buff.

His spot dodge is better.

The Up B OOS is a buff nerf. It's a little harder to CC, but that didn't stop peach from doing it at 90%. The invulnerability shift is a huge nerf, but so far it hasn't affected me too badly.

 

[metroid1117]

The Up B OOS is a buff nerf. It's a little harder to CC, but that didn't stop peach from doing it at 90%. The invulnerability shift is a huge nerf, but so far it hasn't affected me too badly.

Fun fact: When we were testing out new values for up+B's KB, it was once as strong as DK's initial hit on his grounded up+B. (Needless to say, we realized that we overcompensated.)

 

[Heroofhatz]

Fun fact: When we were testing out new values for up+B's KB, it was once as strong as DK's initial hit on his grounded up+B. (Needless to say, we realized that we overcompensated.)

Even still I feel it needs some tweaking, especially now that it isn't invincible on start up. The fact that Peach was able to crouch cancel tech it at 90% it a little silly for something like that.

 

[QuincyJones]

With space animals being much better this patch I would have actually preferred the old Up-B for dealing with pressure.

 

[Heroofhatz]

With space animals being much better this patch I would have actually preferred the old Up-B for dealing with pressure.

Especially since it carried risks to it, you could counter their shine pressure with it, but you were also forced to go to a platform or something to keep it safe cause spacies usually CC teched it. Now you don't really have a good "get off me" move. The old Up B OOS was the equivalent of a dragon punch, it was invincible on start up and was a perfect "GTFO" move. But it was worse than a typical dragon punch because even on hit it may or may not be safe.

Moving the invincibility that much has mitigated it's effectiveness dramatically. And especially with Zard being more susceptible to getting shield poked he needs something to protect himself.

 

[JOE!]

Can we ****ing talk about how seismic toss can be teched @metroid117

 

[metroid1117]

Can we ****ing talk about how seismic toss can be teched @metroid117

That glitch was noted during playtesting and supposedly fixed, but apparently not. I'm not a coder so I don't know how to resolve it, but I've let the other PMDT members know.

 

[JOE!]

Yeah, I just discovered that the other day and it royally ticked me off lol

 

[Merfect]

Can someone tell me the benefits of this patch?

Like I played him before and I liked him a lot! But after this patch i'm considering dropping him. In this thread I noticed that there are some benefits but just....

ugh this update actually might have given me a small depression.

Can someone just list some benefits I want a reason to keep him

(Other than swag. He always has swag)

Zard also received an indirect buff. They made it so that characters with multiple midair jumps can now fall through platforms during their jumping animations (Which they couldn't previously, ARGH). This makes it a lot easier to get down off of platforms.

 

[Life]

Yesterday I fourstocked a Link in Loser's Finals and very nearly took a Bo5 from our best Sheik in GF's. I played a little Zard in 3.02 but only just started taking him seriously.

Zard might feel weird to you longtime mains, IDK, but he's worth playing still.

 

[MaxThunder]

He feels better to me now, actually... can't put my finger on it... i was considering dropping him but now i'm gonna keep playing him...

 

[JOE!]

I think he will play a lot more grounded now, Im just trying to get used to all the new angles and stuff on the aerials lol

Also, due to not having played as much as I like... Flamethrower still clanks stuff even at the weak end, right? Also, is it just me or does it hit more rapidly?

 

[jaytorgator]

I think he will play a lot more grounded now, Im just trying to get used to all the new angles and stuff on the aerials lol

Yeah, I agree with you there. I decided to sit and figure out 3.5 Charizard by playing with some friends and I found my self aerial-chasing a lot less and relying a lot more on DThrow tech chases, jabs, and FTilts/DTilts. I mean, Charizard's aerial game in 3.5 is still quite strong considering his nerfs in Glide and landing lag for Nair, but I also feel that he's better closer to the ground now.

Quick question, though, was it Link's or Charizard's changes that made the matchup easier? Back in 3.02, I could never beat my friend's Link using Charizard, but today, I did it a few times with a lot less trouble than I used to have with him.

 

[Life]

I play a very grab-heavy juggle-heavy Zard. This probably has something to do with playing a very grab-heavy juggle-heavy Marth in Melee. I find that throws set up consistent, advantageous situations--not only are you at an advantage immediately after a throw, but it's a very similar advantage every time, so it becomes easy to figure out what to do afterwards. Whereas hitting with, say, fair is a different situation every time because of the varied hitboxes--more variables equals harder to learn. Juggles are similarly easy to learn because they reset into basically the same situation after every hit.

As for Link: I misremembered. I beat his Link with Squirtle so he went Sheik, and then I fourstocked THAT with Zard on FD for the 3-0. Pretty sure I played Zard in that matchup in friendlies later and still won though. I did beat a Toon Link on stream, will it help to show you that?

Take advantage of your jumps to wait out projectiles. A hard-camping Link doesn't work that well. Run at him. If he pulls a bomb, you can get the grab (or usmash for aerial bomb pull) before the animation is over. If he starts throwing boomerang or charging an arrow, jump and keep moving towards him. Feel free to land behind the boomerang to refresh your jump if you feel the need, and then go back into the air where he can't get a projectile quickly (or just hit him before the boomerang returns if you think he'll fall for that). Also, if you're on a triplat stage such as Battlefield, Link can't pressure the top platform very well, so take advantage of that to break his camping pattern if you can't get in on it. Overall, just don't get impatient. Identify when Link is open to be attacked and when he isn't. Fear not.

A smarter Link uses projectiles to make your approach predictable, but does all the actual heavy lifting with swordplay. Since his priority is pretty good compared to yours, you'll have to be just as ready to switch styles as Link is.

EDIT: Also keep in mind the tether changes. If you edgehog at the right time and Link tethers, just chill out there. The tether jump is super laggy now, so once you see it you have all the time in the world to react with dair or waveland grab or whatever and then Link has to recover again.

 

[Ace55]

Can we ****ing talk about how seismic toss can be teched @metroid117

Lmao, will not be sharing this information.

 

[_Chrome]

Hey guys, how do you feel about the Ike-Charizard matchup? I have always felt like Samus is his worst matchup, but my bro just picked up Ike this update and he really tanks Zard imo. Do you guys have any tips for that matchup?

 

[Life]

Hey guys, how do you feel about the Ike-Charizard matchup? I have always felt like Samus is his worst matchup, but my bro just picked up Ike this update and he really tanks Zard imo. Do you guys have any tips for that matchup?

Take advantage of your fast runspeed to get around his huge sword. Quickdraw mixups are hard to deal with, you'll just have to get a feel for your opponent's use of those. DI his downthrow down and behind him to reduce its combo potential. Throw him a lot because Ike isn't mobile in the air unless he's jumping out of Quickdraw (and also Ike's shield pressure isn't overwhelming like spacie or Lucas pressure can be). Reverse nair is probably your best bet on knocking him out of Aether.

Basically, knock Ike into the skies and outplay him while he's up there.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Spacing DTilt will beat all but the best sweetspot Aether attempts, as well as QD-ing to the edge if you time it right. D-Tilt knocks Ike right out of recovery zone. This'll force Ikes to recover higher which will leave him open for a punish, of which Side-B is probably most devastating.

 

[Life]

Spacing DTilt will beat all but the best sweetspot Aether attempts, as well as QD-ing to the edge if you time it right. D-Tilt knocks Ike right out of recovery zone. This'll force Ikes to recover higher which will leave him open for a punish, of which Side-B is probably most devastating.

This also works. The reason I said reverse nair is because it's basically impossible to sweetspot against--you have to outtime it, not outspace it. And the Aether animation has a ton of startup and leaves Ike hanging there forever, so you can pretty much nair it on reaction.

Point is, Ike's recovery is pretty bad no matter how you choose to deal with it.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Also if an Ike tries to approach using QD, reverse Nairing on reaction beats grab, jumping for an aerial (of which fair has a ton of startup, you *will* hit him before he even begins swinging down) and outspaces QD attack as well, what with the range nerf. You can also flamethrower in his general direction to be funny, but this could leave you open for a punish in the case of QD -> WD back while a SHFFL'd reverse nair will just leave you at neutral. I think Ike's nair out of QD might come out fast enough but with good spacing/reactions he'll just the flame on your tail with his sternum.

Point being QD is pretty beatable if you don't leave yourself open, and neutral is really all about who spaces better, who baits better and who has better movement. Have fun with DD and D-Tilt pokes (Which can also make an QD'ing at you unhappy now that I think about it.)

 

[metroid1117]

As someone who uses both characters, IMO this match-up is in Ike's favor. Both Ike and Charizard are heavily momentum-based in that either character gets punished very hard when they get exposed, but Ike's punish game is more effective on Charizard than vice-versa because of Ike's superior aerial mobility, disjoints on NAir and UAir, and QD throw combos. The neutral game is very interesting, since Charizard wants to be close enough to prevent Ike from utilizing burst movement out of QD while he also wants to be far enough away that Ike doesn't have access to jab or grab, although the latter can be CC'd and punished.

With regards to edgeguarding Ike, it depends if Ike decides to go high or low. If Ike goes high with QD, then BAir is a good choice since it has great horizontal range and Charizard's slow fallspeed allows him to follow Ike as he comes down. With regards to Aether, it depends if Ike is sweetspotting or Aether'ing early to knock opponents away from the edge. Either way, Ike has no hitboxes during his last spin (check it out in debug mode, it's a slim window but it's there), which allows characters with attacks that quickly poke out like Charizard's FTilt and DTilt to hit him. Ike recovering low can be covered by DTilt and Ike recovering high can be covered with angled FTilt, but you can also grab the edge to use invincibility to eat through the rising sword hit and BAir Ike away from the stage.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I was purposely not committing to who wins the MU because I knew there was a much more informed opinion in this very thread. Just throwing out advice on how to deal with things that at first glance seem overtly safe or unbeatable, like QD in neutral or his Aether recovery.

while he also wants to be far enough away that Ike doesn't have access to jab or grab, although the latter

*former. Unless you can CC grabs now.

My own observations attest that Ike's combos on Zard are stupid potent, and edgeguarding Zard with Ike is easier than you'd expect (the secret is forward air and how despite multiple jumps, an Up, and a glide, Zard doesn't quite move fast enough to avoid a YOLO fair hit offstage unless he's coming in high.) Zard also doesn't quite have the spacing tools to keep Ike out, when Ike has the better aerial mobility, disjoint and an easier time punishing any mistake Zard commits to, due Zard being large. So it's not hard to make a case for giving the edge to Ike, even though Zard isn't completely helpless in neutral and can devour Ike's recovery about as well as Dedede can. 55 - 45 Ike edging to 60 - 40 Ike.

 

[_Chrome]

Thanks for all of the input guys, I'll definitely put it to use ASAP!

 

[ab15]

Wait, it doesn't say in the changelog, but it feels like his neutral-ground got slowed a bit. Any truth to this?

I have been using Charizard since he has been available in project m and I have a few questions about the changes made to him in 3.5.
1)Now I looked at the change list and it said nothing about making his neutral-ground slower, however it feels like the move needs more time to start and also there is a longer bit of and lag at the end. I think his dash attack also got nurffed (the speed of the move, it just feels slower) and that was also not on the change list. If really done why?

2) Also why was it deemed necessary to nerf flamethrower (standard b), Why should it not flinch? why should fire not flinch? Bowser has the flinch, bite and all the power he could possibly need, charizard is stuck will MUCH less power, a laggy Flamethrower, and much less offensive options then before.

I don't think the changes made to Charizard is fair, it seems like they just took too many options away from him.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

The flamethrower nerf is more than justified in my opinion... edgeguarding some characters with it would almost always results in sick amounts of damage or a kill, just by pressing B near the ledge and playing with the angle...
Flamethrower doesn't need to be terribly good, it's enough to be part of his character design and usable for random mixups every once in a while (i mean it sucks now, but thats alright with me)

Haven't noticed much of a difference in groundspeed though maybe someone else can shed some light.
I feel like they nerfed his kill power a little too much, since hitting with bair sweetspot out of combos is terribly hard and we don't have any quick kill options out of anything anymore
[fair lacks some range and is very DIable, Nair doesn't kill at all anymore, Firebreath is hard to combo into (except after dair launchers), and juggles hardly work against most of the floatier cast. His ground killgame is okay though (ftilt, downtilt and seismic toss)]

still love him though, but please, don't keep nerfing the dragon... the nair changes where kind of "hidden", but they impacted my gameplay a whole lot!

 

[jaytorgator]

I don't know whether to post in the Matchup Discussion thread or here, considering that thread hasn't been posted in for four months, but I just have a few questions I wanted to ask other Charizards who made the transition between from 3.02 to 3.5.

I was wondering, did the Sonic matchup suddenly become easier? Back in 3.02, whenever I went to my school's Smash club, I was consistently four stocked by a Sonic player, and could only use Wolf to fight him. Now he two stocks my wolf, but I two stock his Sonic using Charizard. I'm not sure what might have changed, or if I just put in a certain amount of work, but I was wondering if it was Charizard's or Sonic's changes that made this MU a tiny bit bearable.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Sonic was nerfed in some important areas. Mainly homing attack recovery. Spindash also has no hitbox while turning anymore. Other than that hes still a very functional character so maybe you're just having more success edgegaurding him now.

 

[ab15]

The flamethrower nerf is more than justified in my opinion... edgeguarding some characters with it would almost always results in sick amounts of damage or a kill, just by pressing B near the ledge and playing with the angle...
Flamethrower doesn't need to be terribly good, it's enough to be part of his character design and usable for random mixups every once in a while (i mean it sucks now, but thats alright with me)

The fire is not a HUGE issue (though when you add into account the speed,power and glide nerfs, they really add up). Though Bowser is an arguably better character yet still has the full fire(+Bite).

Haven't noticed much of a difference in groundspeed though maybe someone else can shed some light.

This is a huge issue for me, Who would I speak to about this because I really think they slowed it down.

I feel like they nerfed his kill power a little too much, since hitting with bair sweetspot out of combos is terribly hard and we don't have any quick kill options out of anything anymore
[fair lacks some range and is very DIable, Nair doesn't kill at all anymore, Firebreath is hard to combo into (except after dair launchers), and juggles hardly work against most of the floatier cast. His ground killgame is okay though (ftilt, downtilt and seismic toss)

Very true, though he did have some difficulty with power in 3.2 the difference is now it is much harder to juggle and damage the opponent.
It was easier to damage the opponent in 3.2 so his lack of power was not such a big deal. Charizard KOed mostly through juggling, combos, and spiking (and when needed a up throw) But now he has less option then before.

still love him though, but please, don't keep nerfing the dragon... the nair changes where kind of "hidden", but they impacted my gameplay a whole lot!

With you; Please don't keep nerfing the dragon...
and the changes did impact my gameplay a lot also.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Heroofhatz]

In response to the flame thrower nerfs, they were pretty justified for one reason. Edge guarding spacies. It literally made it free, you could hit them out of either fire fox or illusion, and if you did they were pretty screwed.

HOWEVER, this is only because not a lot of spacies could not SDI through it consistently, which granted SDI is kind of tricky in that context, but that seems a little unfair. Having to know a pretty advanced tactic just to survive a kill move shouldn't be too much to ask from a player. I mean, look at Ivy. If we want to survive getting Bair'd by her any single time we go offstage, we need to learn how to SDI into the stage and tech it to live as well. Yet Ivy keeps her Bair, and we keep our Nair. What would have been a more effective nerf would be to mess with the knock back values or try and change the SDI multiplier so that you could more easily go through flame thrower if you tried to SDI.

Even still, edge guarding spacies is still pretty free, ledge hop invincible Nair with good timing and you covered every single option and forced them to recover at a bad angle. But flame thrower had more useful options outside of gimping spacies, it was actually a pretty decent neutral game option at times if you had your opponent boxed in. Risky, but not bad.

That's my two cents on the issue.

 

[ab15]

My complaint was not really on the fire it was just one aspect I did not want to get caught up on, but it is still discussable. On the spacy subject, yes Charizard had an advantage over them when they were recovering but I don't think pm needed to nerf the move just for them. The spacies are good enough and in the other thread there is a whole discussion weather Charizard would get wrecked by fox or not.
Would post link but cant; in the
So my buddy says charizard is OP. thread page 2.

Spacies weakness is recovering, if they did not have that weakness then they would be broken.

The fire is not a HUGE issue (though when you add into account the speed,power and glide nerfs, they really add up). Though Bowser is an arguably better character yet still has the full fire(+Bite).

Also yes Ivy's back air could destroy a lot of characters and with Charizards worse glide it makes it even harder to recover.

I agree with most of what you said though again my main complaint is with the other nerfs, or the fact that they decided to nerf him the amount they did. I know pm wanted to make recovering harder (and that only helps spacies) but why did they have to nerf charizard so much, he was never unfair.

 

[Heroofhatz]

My complaint was not really on the fire it was just one aspect I did not want to get caught up on, but it is still discussable. On the spacy subject, yes Charizard had an advantage over them when they were recovering but I don't think pm needed to nerf the move just for them. The spacies are good enough and in the other thread there is a whole discussion weather Charizard would get wrecked by fox or not.
Would post link but cant; in the
So my buddy says charizard is OP. thread page 2.

Spacies weakness is recovering, if they did not have that weakness then they would be broken.



Also yes Ivy's back air could destroy a lot of characters and with Charizards worse glide it makes it even harder to recover.

I agree with most of what you said though again my main complaint is with the other nerfs, or the fact that they decided to nerf him the amount they did. I know pm wanted to make recovering harder (and that only helps spacies) but why did they have to nerf charizard so much, he was never unfair.

Aside from the up B nerfs and the glide nerfs, I'm fine with most everything they did to him, a little salty, but I understand.

Like let's go through this:

Tilts

-Forward Tilt
--Intangibility on head has been removed.
--Hitlag homogenized from 0.95x -> 1x.

Mk yeah the intangibility was kind of weird, if your opponent was anything other than blocking they would lose to this. A pain that it's gone, cause this move is so unsafe on anything other than a direct hit, but you still have jab to work with if you want a nice disjoint in neutral.


-Down Tilt
--Sourspot hitbox damage increased from 8 -> 10, BKB decreased from 65 -> 35, and knockback angle changed from 80 -> 75.
--Sweetspot hitbox damage increased from 10 -> 12 and KBG decreased from 100 -> 90.

Fine with this, the gimp isn't quite as strong but it still works just as nicely. And it combos better since the BKB was reduced.



Smashes
-Forward Smash sourspot hitbox has a normalized SDI multiplier from 0x -> 1x.

Ok nothing to say here really

-Up Smash
--First pop-up hitbox at his feet are now at his chest and reduced in size.
--Hitboxes are no longer unclankable.

So the first part isn't that big of a deal, the hitbox still hit grounded people fine. The loss of unclankability tho, that's a pain. Now it is much much less effective of an anti air, in a character based on juggling. But all this means is that you have to adapt and use different moves in place of this, bait out an option and get a bigger punish.




Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--Landlag increased from frame 19 -> 25 (+3 frames to L-canceled lag)
--Added TailUb as a collision bone (1st 1/4th of the tail) and shifted Charizard up during the swinging part.
--Initial reverse flame hit damage decreased from 13 -> 11, KBG decreased from 100 -> 90, hitbox moved in.
--Upper flame hit damage increased from 12 -> 13, size reduced, and disjoint decreased.
--Back flame hit window shifted earlier from frame 22 -> 18, knockback angle changed from 28 -> 50, KBG increased from 90 -> 100, and hitbox moved in.

Land lag is a pain in the butt, makes it much more unsafe, but I don't think it wasn't deserved. The shift in the collision doesn't seem to affect me that much personally but that's just me. The reduction in the flame hitbox is kind of dumb, but also understandable. Hey at least it combos better. Upper flame disjoint isn't that important but can make anti-air combat a little harder, but if we were honest, it was really really hard to get down with that move covering Zard. The gimp hitbox getting nerfed? Also understandable, since now instead of killing outright you have to then re grab ledge and set up another ledge guarding situation in lieu of killing them outright. But this still kills fast fallers quite reliably so it's not the biggest deal. It got a bit of a damage buff tho.

-Forward Aerial
--Animation changed, with different hitbox coverage but identical horizontal reach.
--Strong lingering hitbox from frames 13-15 has been removed.

The lack of the lingering hitbox isn't the worst, overall I feel like Fair got buffed in general.


-Down Aerial animation doesn’t move upwards as much at the beginning.

Very needed fix for YS and WW, Dair is much more effective on those stages now.




Throws
-Up Throw bug that allowed for ceiling KOs with descending hits has been removed.

Well this still needs some bug fixing but it's w/e


Specials
-Neutral Special (Flamethrower)
--Hitboxes decay to 1% starting on frame 11 from frame 13.
--Decayed hitboxes no longer cause flinching or knockback but are larger than before. Normal 2% hitboxes are unchanged.
--Slightly increased size of flame GFX.

We've already kind of talked about this one



-Up Special

--Grounded intangibility moved from 1-5 to 3-6
--Grounded Up Special initial hitbox knockback angle changed from 361 -> 50 and BKB increased from 67 -> 70.
--Grounded Up Special flub hitbox damage increased from 9 -> 10.
--Aerial peak has HipN ~2 units lower for vertical sweetspotting purposes.
--Both air and ground FSM speedups removed, shortened hang time by enabling gravity earlier instead.
--Reduced amount of horizontal TransN movement at the end.
--Landing on platforms has been made more natural.

K so this one I can rant a little at.
This move was in essence, a dragon punch, which isn't a bad thing. Heck, uppercuts in most fighting games are a very useful way to get out of pressure, because they have start up invincibility. Now why did they move the invincibility? It seems a little odd... The thing is, the first hit box appears on frame 4, so you get one frame of intangibility, but the thing is, that if your opponent hits your up B, then they will clank, and if they don't they will get hit regardless. So frame 4-6 intangibility seems rather redundant since you are either going to clank or hit, never counter. Thing is, that even though this was a DP, it was horribly unsafe, heck even sometimes on hit. CC teching could destroy this move, and especially by spacies. So why nerf it? And while the hitbox changes were an attempt to reduce CC teching, it didn't work that well. Peach was still able to CC tech it at over 100%. Also another thing, the reduction in the height made it even more unsafe OOS. In 3.02, you could use it on the ground and still get to a top platform to keep yourself moderately more safe, but now that was changed. You used to be able to abuse the full extent of your horizontal reach and you could still make it up there, but now you have to go straight up if you want to land on a platform. I hope that is something that gets changed.

Despite my ranting though, I still have been able to use it to great success, but the changes didn't seem to add up with what we were thinking they were going to do...


-Down Special (Fly)
--Removed frame 1 momentum halt.
--Intangibility removed.

Ok yeah idk why fly had start up intangibility.



-Aerial Down Special (Glide)
--Removed frame 1 momentum halt.
--GlideStart now plays full animation with initial wing flap.
--GlideStart has momentum loop to accelerate/decelerate Charizard from his previous horizontal velocity to his glide velocity more smoothly.
--GlideStart’s initial minimum horizontal velocity increased.
--GlideEnd and reverse GlideEnd go into aerial fall (action F) instead of fall (action E).
--GlideEnd turn happens on frame 5 + momentum reversal.
--Glide Attack intangibility has been removed; hitboxes have been shrunken, hitboxes have less disjoint. and hitlag multiplier decreased from 1.15x -> 1x on strong hit.
--Glide Attack and GlideEnd interrupts made earlier to compensate for added startup animation.


OOOOOOohhhhhhhhhh baby this one has been the hot topic, but we've talked so much about this I won't bother. Also apparently the PMDT is working on a new one, so never fear.



Others
-Dash Attack IASA frames delayed from frame 34 -> 38.
-Spotdodge intangibility +1 frame, IASA +2 frames
-Ledge Attack bug on Dracula’s Castle where he falls off was fixed.
-Ledge grab box y-offset 11 -> 13 and width 15 -> 13 to increase vertical reach during jumps/falling to adjust for global edge changes.
-Up Taunt has a new animation.
-Final Smash has been created.


K the dash attack IASA frames kind of suck, but I can't think of a reason I would want to use them aside from if they block it, but then I'm going to get grabbed/hit anyway so it's w/e. Zard's spot dodge still needs work tho, you can spot dodge a grab and then still be in lag before you can act, so they'll just grab you anyway. Ledge stuff is kind of w/e. Utaunt is boss cause finally he has a taunt that is cool. Final smash is cool too but I was still hoping for a Mega X transform

Anyways, there's my view on the changes. Yeah some of them suck but he's still solid, you just have to think of different follow ups and such for things.

 

[ab15]

Aside from the up B nerfs and the glide nerfs, I'm fine with most everything they did to him, a little salty, but I understand.

Like let's go through this:

Tilts

-Forward Tilt
--Intangibility on head has been removed.
--Hitlag homogenized from 0.95x -> 1x.

Mk yeah the intangibility was kind of weird, if your opponent was anything other than blocking they would lose to this. A pain that it's gone, cause this move is so unsafe on anything other than a direct hit, but you still have jab to work with if you want a nice disjoint in neutral.


-Down Tilt
--Sourspot hitbox damage increased from 8 -> 10, BKB decreased from 65 -> 35, and knockback angle changed from 80 -> 75.
--Sweetspot hitbox damage increased from 10 -> 12 and KBG decreased from 100 -> 90.

Fine with this, the gimp isn't quite as strong but it still works just as nicely. And it combos better since the BKB was reduced.



Smashes
-Forward Smash sourspot hitbox has a normalized SDI multiplier from 0x -> 1x.

Ok nothing to say here really

-Up Smash
--First pop-up hitbox at his feet are now at his chest and reduced in size.
--Hitboxes are no longer unclankable.

So the first part isn't that big of a deal, the hitbox still hit grounded people fine. The loss of unclankability tho, that's a pain. Now it is much much less effective of an anti air, in a character based on juggling. But all this means is that you have to adapt and use different moves in place of this, bait out an option and get a bigger punish.




Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--Landlag increased from frame 19 -> 25 (+3 frames to L-canceled lag)
--Added TailUb as a collision bone (1st 1/4th of the tail) and shifted Charizard up during the swinging part.
--Initial reverse flame hit damage decreased from 13 -> 11, KBG decreased from 100 -> 90, hitbox moved in.
--Upper flame hit damage increased from 12 -> 13, size reduced, and disjoint decreased.
--Back flame hit window shifted earlier from frame 22 -> 18, knockback angle changed from 28 -> 50, KBG increased from 90 -> 100, and hitbox moved in.

Land lag is a pain in the butt, makes it much more unsafe, but I don't think it wasn't deserved. The shift in the collision doesn't seem to affect me that much personally but that's just me. The reduction in the flame hitbox is kind of dumb, but also understandable. Hey at least it combos better. Upper flame disjoint isn't that important but can make anti-air combat a little harder, but if we were honest, it was really really hard to get down with that move covering Zard. The gimp hitbox getting nerfed? Also understandable, since now instead of killing outright you have to then re grab ledge and set up another ledge guarding situation in lieu of killing them outright. But this still kills fast fallers quite reliably so it's not the biggest deal. It got a bit of a damage buff tho.

-Forward Aerial
--Animation changed, with different hitbox coverage but identical horizontal reach.
--Strong lingering hitbox from frames 13-15 has been removed.

The lack of the lingering hitbox isn't the worst, overall I feel like Fair got buffed in general.


-Down Aerial animation doesn’t move upwards as much at the beginning.

Very needed fix for YS and WW, Dair is much more effective on those stages now.




Throws
-Up Throw bug that allowed for ceiling KOs with descending hits has been removed.

Well this still needs some bug fixing but it's w/e


Specials
-Neutral Special (Flamethrower)
--Hitboxes decay to 1% starting on frame 11 from frame 13.
--Decayed hitboxes no longer cause flinching or knockback but are larger than before. Normal 2% hitboxes are unchanged.
--Slightly increased size of flame GFX.

We've already kind of talked about this one



-Up Special

--Grounded intangibility moved from 1-5 to 3-6
--Grounded Up Special initial hitbox knockback angle changed from 361 -> 50 and BKB increased from 67 -> 70.
--Grounded Up Special flub hitbox damage increased from 9 -> 10.
--Aerial peak has HipN ~2 units lower for vertical sweetspotting purposes.
--Both air and ground FSM speedups removed, shortened hang time by enabling gravity earlier instead.
--Reduced amount of horizontal TransN movement at the end.
--Landing on platforms has been made more natural.

K so this one I can rant a little at.
This move was in essence, a dragon punch, which isn't a bad thing. Heck, uppercuts in most fighting games are a very useful way to get out of pressure, because they have start up invincibility. Now why did they move the invincibility? It seems a little odd... The thing is, the first hit box appears on frame 4, so you get one frame of intangibility, but the thing is, that if your opponent hits your up B, then they will clank, and if they don't they will get hit regardless. So frame 4-6 intangibility seems rather redundant since you are either going to clank or hit, never counter. Thing is, that even though this was a DP, it was horribly unsafe, heck even sometimes on hit. CC teching could destroy this move, and especially by spacies. So why nerf it? And while the hitbox changes were an attempt to reduce CC teching, it didn't work that well. Peach was still able to CC tech it at over 100%. Also another thing, the reduction in the height made it even more unsafe OOS. In 3.02, you could use it on the ground and still get to a top platform to keep yourself moderately more safe, but now that was changed. You used to be able to abuse the full extent of your horizontal reach and you could still make it up there, but now you have to go straight up if you want to land on a platform. I hope that is something that gets changed.

Despite my ranting though, I still have been able to use it to great success, but the changes didn't seem to add up with what we were thinking they were going to do...


-Down Special (Fly)
--Removed frame 1 momentum halt.
--Intangibility removed.

Ok yeah idk why fly had start up intangibility.



-Aerial Down Special (Glide)
--Removed frame 1 momentum halt.
--GlideStart now plays full animation with initial wing flap.
--GlideStart has momentum loop to accelerate/decelerate Charizard from his previous horizontal velocity to his glide velocity more smoothly.
--GlideStart’s initial minimum horizontal velocity increased.
--GlideEnd and reverse GlideEnd go into aerial fall (action F) instead of fall (action E).
--GlideEnd turn happens on frame 5 + momentum reversal.
--Glide Attack intangibility has been removed; hitboxes have been shrunken, hitboxes have less disjoint. and hitlag multiplier decreased from 1.15x -> 1x on strong hit.
--Glide Attack and GlideEnd interrupts made earlier to compensate for added startup animation.


OOOOOOohhhhhhhhhh baby this one has been the hot topic, but we've talked so much about this I won't bother. Also apparently the PMDT is working on a new one, so never fear.



Others
-Dash Attack IASA frames delayed from frame 34 -> 38.
-Spotdodge intangibility +1 frame, IASA +2 frames
-Ledge Attack bug on Dracula’s Castle where he falls off was fixed.
-Ledge grab box y-offset 11 -> 13 and width 15 -> 13 to increase vertical reach during jumps/falling to adjust for global edge changes.
-Up Taunt has a new animation.
-Final Smash has been created.


K the dash attack IASA frames kind of suck, but I can't think of a reason I would want to use them aside from if they block it, but then I'm going to get grabbed/hit anyway so it's w/e. Zard's spot dodge still needs work tho, you can spot dodge a grab and then still be in lag before you can act, so they'll just grab you anyway. Ledge stuff is kind of w/e. Utaunt is boss cause finally he has a taunt that is cool. Final smash is cool too but I was still hoping for a Mega X transform

Anyways, there's my view on the changes. Yeah some of them suck but he's still solid, you just have to think of different follow ups and such for things.

Thank you for your analysis, it was pretty informative.
I am not sure how long you have been using charizard but it seems like you were using him for a while. I and a few other people have noticed that they slowed down his neutral-ground. It feels like it takes a few more frames to start and has a few more frames of end lag (though it is not on the change list, but it still affects my game) . How do you feel about the neutral-ground, do you think something about the game was changed that could have affected the move?

Thanks.

 

[Heroofhatz]

Thank you for your analysis, it was pretty informative.
I am not sure how long you have been using charizard but it seems like you were using him for a while. I and a few other people have noticed that they slowed down his neutral-ground. It feels like it takes a few more frames to start and has a few more frames of end lag (though it is not on the change list, but it still affects my game) . How do you feel about the neutral-ground, do you think something about the game was changed that could have affected the move?

Thanks.

If by neutral ground you mean jab, then no I don't feel any difference. And I don't think anyone else has either.

 

[G13_Flux]

Aside from the up B nerfs and the glide nerfs, I'm fine with most everything they did to him, a little salty, but I understand.

Like let's go through this:

Tilts

-Forward Tilt
--Intangibility on head has been removed.
--Hitlag homogenized from 0.95x -> 1x.

Mk yeah the intangibility was kind of weird, if your opponent was anything other than blocking they would lose to this. A pain that it's gone, cause this move is so unsafe on anything other than a direct hit, but you still have jab to work with if you want a nice disjoint in neutral.


-Down Tilt
--Sourspot hitbox damage increased from 8 -> 10, BKB decreased from 65 -> 35, and knockback angle changed from 80 -> 75.
--Sweetspot hitbox damage increased from 10 -> 12 and KBG decreased from 100 -> 90.

Fine with this, the gimp isn't quite as strong but it still works just as nicely. And it combos better since the BKB was reduced.



Smashes
-Forward Smash sourspot hitbox has a normalized SDI multiplier from 0x -> 1x.

Ok nothing to say here really

-Up Smash
--First pop-up hitbox at his feet are now at his chest and reduced in size.
--Hitboxes are no longer unclankable.

So the first part isn't that big of a deal, the hitbox still hit grounded people fine. The loss of unclankability tho, that's a pain. Now it is much much less effective of an anti air, in a character based on juggling. But all this means is that you have to adapt and use different moves in place of this, bait out an option and get a bigger punish.




Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--Landlag increased from frame 19 -> 25 (+3 frames to L-canceled lag)
--Added TailUb as a collision bone (1st 1/4th of the tail) and shifted Charizard up during the swinging part.
--Initial reverse flame hit damage decreased from 13 -> 11, KBG decreased from 100 -> 90, hitbox moved in.
--Upper flame hit damage increased from 12 -> 13, size reduced, and disjoint decreased.
--Back flame hit window shifted earlier from frame 22 -> 18, knockback angle changed from 28 -> 50, KBG increased from 90 -> 100, and hitbox moved in.

Land lag is a pain in the butt, makes it much more unsafe, but I don't think it wasn't deserved. The shift in the collision doesn't seem to affect me that much personally but that's just me. The reduction in the flame hitbox is kind of dumb, but also understandable. Hey at least it combos better. Upper flame disjoint isn't that important but can make anti-air combat a little harder, but if we were honest, it was really really hard to get down with that move covering Zard. The gimp hitbox getting nerfed? Also understandable, since now instead of killing outright you have to then re grab ledge and set up another ledge guarding situation in lieu of killing them outright. But this still kills fast fallers quite reliably so it's not the biggest deal. It got a bit of a damage buff tho.

-Forward Aerial
--Animation changed, with different hitbox coverage but identical horizontal reach.
--Strong lingering hitbox from frames 13-15 has been removed.

The lack of the lingering hitbox isn't the worst, overall I feel like Fair got buffed in general.


-Down Aerial animation doesn’t move upwards as much at the beginning.

Very needed fix for YS and WW, Dair is much more effective on those stages now.




Throws
-Up Throw bug that allowed for ceiling KOs with descending hits has been removed.

Well this still needs some bug fixing but it's w/e


Specials
-Neutral Special (Flamethrower)
--Hitboxes decay to 1% starting on frame 11 from frame 13.
--Decayed hitboxes no longer cause flinching or knockback but are larger than before. Normal 2% hitboxes are unchanged.
--Slightly increased size of flame GFX.

We've already kind of talked about this one



-Up Special

--Grounded intangibility moved from 1-5 to 3-6
--Grounded Up Special initial hitbox knockback angle changed from 361 -> 50 and BKB increased from 67 -> 70.
--Grounded Up Special flub hitbox damage increased from 9 -> 10.
--Aerial peak has HipN ~2 units lower for vertical sweetspotting purposes.
--Both air and ground FSM speedups removed, shortened hang time by enabling gravity earlier instead.
--Reduced amount of horizontal TransN movement at the end.
--Landing on platforms has been made more natural.

K so this one I can rant a little at.
This move was in essence, a dragon punch, which isn't a bad thing. Heck, uppercuts in most fighting games are a very useful way to get out of pressure, because they have start up invincibility. Now why did they move the invincibility? It seems a little odd... The thing is, the first hit box appears on frame 4, so you get one frame of intangibility, but the thing is, that if your opponent hits your up B, then they will clank, and if they don't they will get hit regardless. So frame 4-6 intangibility seems rather redundant since you are either going to clank or hit, never counter. Thing is, that even though this was a DP, it was horribly unsafe, heck even sometimes on hit. CC teching could destroy this move, and especially by spacies. So why nerf it? And while the hitbox changes were an attempt to reduce CC teching, it didn't work that well. Peach was still able to CC tech it at over 100%. Also another thing, the reduction in the height made it even more unsafe OOS. In 3.02, you could use it on the ground and still get to a top platform to keep yourself moderately more safe, but now that was changed. You used to be able to abuse the full extent of your horizontal reach and you could still make it up there, but now you have to go straight up if you want to land on a platform. I hope that is something that gets changed.

Despite my ranting though, I still have been able to use it to great success, but the changes didn't seem to add up with what we were thinking they were going to do...


-Down Special (Fly)
--Removed frame 1 momentum halt.
--Intangibility removed.

Ok yeah idk why fly had start up intangibility.



-Aerial Down Special (Glide)
--Removed frame 1 momentum halt.
--GlideStart now plays full animation with initial wing flap.
--GlideStart has momentum loop to accelerate/decelerate Charizard from his previous horizontal velocity to his glide velocity more smoothly.
--GlideStart’s initial minimum horizontal velocity increased.
--GlideEnd and reverse GlideEnd go into aerial fall (action F) instead of fall (action E).
--GlideEnd turn happens on frame 5 + momentum reversal.
--Glide Attack intangibility has been removed; hitboxes have been shrunken, hitboxes have less disjoint. and hitlag multiplier decreased from 1.15x -> 1x on strong hit.
--Glide Attack and GlideEnd interrupts made earlier to compensate for added startup animation.


OOOOOOohhhhhhhhhh baby this one has been the hot topic, but we've talked so much about this I won't bother. Also apparently the PMDT is working on a new one, so never fear.



Others
-Dash Attack IASA frames delayed from frame 34 -> 38.
-Spotdodge intangibility +1 frame, IASA +2 frames
-Ledge Attack bug on Dracula’s Castle where he falls off was fixed.
-Ledge grab box y-offset 11 -> 13 and width 15 -> 13 to increase vertical reach during jumps/falling to adjust for global edge changes.
-Up Taunt has a new animation.
-Final Smash has been created.


K the dash attack IASA frames kind of suck, but I can't think of a reason I would want to use them aside from if they block it, but then I'm going to get grabbed/hit anyway so it's w/e. Zard's spot dodge still needs work tho, you can spot dodge a grab and then still be in lag before you can act, so they'll just grab you anyway. Ledge stuff is kind of w/e. Utaunt is boss cause finally he has a taunt that is cool. Final smash is cool too but I was still hoping for a Mega X transform

Anyways, there's my view on the changes. Yeah some of them suck but he's still solid, you just have to think of different follow ups and such for things.

the unclankable hitboxes being removed on upsmash dont make it a worse anti air move. in fact it actually has no affect whatsoever on aerial moves. the only thing this does is allow it to clank with projectiles now, as well as with ground moves. being unclankable means that the hitboxes persist through attacks even if they collide. thus, you can collide a weak attack with a strong attack, and the weak one will still go though, allowing for trades, or allowing potential disjoint to totally beat the move entirely. think of MKs quick, weak, and disjointed ftilt colliding with falcons fsmash. both moves persist through each other until someone is hit, or the attacks end. MKs ftilt will not be cancelled out by the powerful smash, but instead will hit falcon, and since his ftilt is disjointed, MK will not get hit in return.

now you probably knew this for the most part, but aerial attacks work the same way mostly. two air attack will persist through each other until someone gets hit, or the moves are over. the same goes for a ground attack vs an air attack. ganon can stomp, mario while doing an upsmash, and they will both get hit, and both be sent upwards. thus, charizards anti air capabilities are completely unchanged, and in fact, theyre probably buffed since now he can cancel out things like peaches turnips with it, which he couldnt do before.

 

[Heroofhatz]

the unclankable hitboxes being removed on upsmash dont make it a worse anti air move. in fact it actually has no affect whatsoever on aerial moves. the only thing this does is allow it to clank with projectiles now, as well as with ground moves. being unclankable means that the hitboxes persist through attacks even if they collide. thus, you can collide a weak attack with a strong attack, and the weak one will still go though, allowing for trades, or allowing potential disjoint to totally beat the move entirely. think of MKs quick, weak, and disjointed ftilt colliding with falcons fsmash. both moves persist through each other until someone is hit, or the attacks end. MKs ftilt will not be cancelled out by the powerful smash, but instead will hit falcon, and since his ftilt is disjointed, MK will not get hit in return.

now you probably knew this for the most part, but aerial attacks work the same way mostly. two air attack will persist through each other until someone gets hit, or the moves are over. the same goes for a ground attack vs an air attack. ganon can stomp, mario while doing an upsmash, and they will both get hit, and both be sent upwards. thus, charizards anti air capabilities are completely unchanged, and in fact, theyre probably buffed since now he can cancel out things like peaches turnips with it, which he couldnt do before.

Ah, I was under the impression that it meant something else, thank you for clarifying :D

 

[Remzi]

PMDT is re-workng glide???? If its like before I will start playing this game again in a heartbeat. PLEASE BE TRUE

 

[metroid1117]

PMDT is re-workng glide???? If its like before I will start playing this game again in a heartbeat. PLEASE BE TRUE

I can't divulge any specifics, but you can expect some minor changes to Charizard in the next public release.

 

[BluntedMask]

Please don't change anything but glide. The character is so perfect right now.