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Discussing 3.5 changes!

Yomi-no-Kuni

Smash Lord
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Sep 2, 2007
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Freiburg germany
I'm going to be taking a closer look at the changenotes and changes ingame on my Stream right now!
http://www.twitch.tv/yomedrath/c/5502761

Sadly much of it is me trying to control the debug features, but there's alot of information in there!

Join in and discuss with me, (in the thread or in my stream) i'll be saving the video and I'll be posting it in the thread after I'm done.

Charizard Changelist


Tilts
-Forward Tilt
--Intangibility on head has been removed.
--Hitlag homogenized from 0.95x -> 1x.
-Down Tilt
--Sourspot hitbox damage increased from 8 -> 10, BKB decreased from 65 -> 35, and knockback angle changed from 80 -> 75.
--Sweetspot hitbox damage increased from 10 -> 12 and KBG decreased from 100 -> 90.

Smashes
-Forward Smash sourspot hitbox has a normalized SDI multiplier from 0x -> 1x.
-Up Smash
--First pop-up hitbox at his feet are not at his chest.
--Hitboxes are no longer unclankable.
--Hitbox attached to bone0 was moved to Charizard’s chest and made smaller from 6 -> 4.5.

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--Landlag increased from frame 19 -> 25 (+3 frames to L-canceled lag)
--Added TailUb as a collision bone (1st 1/4th of the tail) and shifted Charizard up during the swinging part.
--Initial reverse flame hit damage decreased from 13 -> 11, KBG decreased from 100 -> 90, and x offset decreased from 2.5 -> 0.
--Upper flame hit damage increased from 12 -> 13, size reduced, and disjoint decreased.
--Back flame hit window shifted earlier from frame 22 -> 18, knockback angle changed from 28 -> 50, KBG increased from 90 -> 100, and hitbox moved in.
-Forward Aerial
--Animation changed, with different hitbox coverage but identical horizontal reach.
--Strong lingering hitbox from frames 13-15 has been removed.
-Down Aerial animation doesn’t move upwards as much at the beginning.

Throws
-Up Throw bug that allowed for ceiling KOs with descending hits has been removed.

Specials
-Neutral Special (Flamethrower)
--Hitboxes decay to 1% starting on frame 11 from frame 13.
--Decayed hitboxes no longer cause flinching or knockback but are larger than before. Normal 2% hitboxes are unchanged.
--Slightly increased size of flame GFX.
-Up Special
--Grounded intangibility moved from 1-5 to 3-6
--Grounded Up Special initial hitbox knockback angle changed from 361 -> 50 and BKB increased from 67 -> 70.
--Grounded Up Special flub hitbox damage increased from 9 -> 10.
--Aerial peak has HipN ~2 units lower for vertical sweetspotting purposes.
--Both air and ground FSM speedups removed, shortened hang time by enabling gravity earlier instead.
--Reduced amount of horizontal TransN movement at the end.
--Landing on platforms has been made more natural.
-Down Special (Fly)
--Removed frame 1 momentum halt.
--Intangibility removed.
-Aerial Down Special (Glide)
--Removed frame 1 momentum halt.
--GlideStart now plays full animation with initial wing flap.
--GlideStart has momentum loop to accelerate/decelerate Charizard from his previous horizontal velocity to his glide velocity more smoothly.
--GlideStart’s initial minimum horizontal velocity increased.
--GlideEnd and reverse GlideEnd go into aerial fall (action F) instead of fall (action E).
--GlideEnd turn happens on frame 5 + momentum reversal.
--Glide Attack intangibility has been removed; hitboxes have been shrunken, hitboxes have less disjoint. and hitlag multiplier decreased from 1.15x -> 1x on strong hit.
--Glide Attack and GlideEnd interrupts made earlier to compensate for added startup animation.

Others
-Dash Attack IASA frames delayed from frame 34 -> 38.
-Spotdodge intangibility +1 frame, IASA +2 frames
-Ledge Attack bug on Dracula’s Castle where he falls off was fixed.
-Ledge grab box y-offset 11 -> 13 and width 15 -> 13 to increase vertical reach during jumps/falling to adjust for global edge changes.
-Up Taunt has a new animation.
-Final Smash has been created.
 
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Blank Mauser

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It's not explicitly mentioned in the changelist but the momentum change happening on frame 5 means you can no longer wavebounce glide end. Wonder if this is intentional.

Sad to say it but I would say glide in general is no longer a crucial part in Zard's play anymore. Because of the start-up now making it significantly harder to do glide tricks. You can still do them, but you can't angle the glide during start-up as much because of the animation.
 
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Remzi

formerly VaBengal
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I'm really not happy with the new glide. They basically stripped it all of its nuanced control. It's pretty much impossible to edge cancel it now without an extremely telegraphed setup. Also, the fact that we have to wait so long to before we can aim the glide up or down means that its pretty much useless as a post-edgeguard turnaround recovery aid. Plus it takes a while before you can glide cancel AND you HAVE to glide cancel downwards....

I'm just disappointed because Charizard really didn't need any nerfs, but he got quite a few.
He's still a great character, though and I'm still gonna rep him.
 

jaytorgator

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I'm really not happy with the new glide. They basically stripped it all of its nuanced control. It's pretty much impossible to edge cancel it now without an extremely telegraphed setup. Also, the fact that we have to wait so long to before we can aim the glide up or down means that its pretty much useless as a post-edgeguard turnaround recovery aid. Plus it takes a while before you can glide cancel AND you HAVE to glide cancel downwards....

I'm just disappointed because Charizard really didn't need any nerfs, but he got quite a few.
He's still a great character, though and I'm still gonna rep him.
I agree with this whole feeling about the glide; even though I've only been playing Project M for around a month now, I mained Charizard because of how mobile his glide felt and all of his aerial options. The startup animation makes Glairs a bit more awkward to aim, at least, in my opinion. He almost feels like Brawl Minus Charizard with his glide, and I feel like I'm less in control when it comes to approaching in the air now.

Another few things I've noticed after toying with Charizard a bit is his Bair; for some reason, it seems like it comes out faster now? I can't really tell, but his Fair change has definitely screwed around with me. As a huge fan of the Charizard "Ken Combo", I'm kind of disappointed with this change, but I've noticed that if you hit the sweetspot on his Fair, it's a much more viable kill off the side so I'll try to adjust to it.

I had a lot of fun playing Charizard in 3.02, but 3.5 is feeling a bit strange right now. I still plan on maining Charizard, but I feel like readjusting to Charizard's aerial game with his new glide is going to be a strange period of time for me. I really enjoy his Armored Charizard costume, though.
 

ꓰspeon

Sun Pokemon
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Personally, I can see the reasons for the changes, but honestly, piling them all at once on a character? Glide having no more IF AND smaller hitboxes AND less damage AND more awkward to control? Geeze Luise people, was all of that really necessary?

But then again, I'm quite fine with them, if it wasn't for the starting glair angle. Now that the glair can't be aimed up more than a measly dozen of degrees, for one it can't really be used anymore for below-the-ledge recovery, but for another it opens a terrible hole in his aerial combo flowchart, where enemies can just DI towards and be saved. To me, that's the change that hurts the most, and the most important I'd advocate towards adjusting.
 

Yomi-no-Kuni

Smash Lord
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Video is up!
A couple of things:
Glide canceling form beneath platforms is alot harder since the Glideattack angel changes without you being able to influence it. However, you can run of a platform, glide, glideattack and automatically cancel the Glide on the next platform. really easy and really useful!

I had a couple of more points I didn't adress in the video, gotta go right now.
I will upload another video of me comparing different styles of getting to the Ledge. Spoiler: reverse Wavedash out of run is the winner. (by about 10 frames which is pretty important! Much harder to do Frameperfekt though compared to Glidecancel edgehog. So they might be similar with stylepoints for the glidehog!)

check out the second past Broadcast of today to take a look at me trying to cope with the Ledge stuff, I'll upload a cut version of it tomorrow and I think it'll be rather cool! Also in there: Glidestall is invulnerable! Framperfect though, so it'll be hard to implement.


i know its all a bit unorganized, bear with me, i'll get better in the future and I'll do more guides (gonna upload a the glidestall guide aswell!) Please follow if you like.




OVERALL i am extremely happy with these changes! Glide feels more natural to me, eventhough it might be a bit more unflexible.
 
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DoctorFS

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
13
I have to agree with what others said in that I'm really not happy with the change to glide. It now just feels so incredibly awkward and punishable to do pretty much anything with it that I would have wanted to do in 3.02. I imagine the laggy startup animation was added in the vein of the general recovery nerfs, but it honestly was not hard to punish a glide recovery with almost any character if you knew the matchup, and now it's much less useful for offense as well, since it's pretty impossible to angle glair away from the default trajectory in a combo now. It's also going to be much less possible to land the glair on platforms to avoid laggy landing/specialfall. I'm fine with the removal of invincibility and change to the hitboxes, just as I'm fine with the vast majority of the nerfs to Charizard and the cast as a whole; this just seems like an unwarranted removal of mobility.
 

Nomzr

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Yeah I can live with most of these changes, he feels a bit slower overall and more punishable, but that probably takes some getting used to. The glide however... No. My friend sometimes plays Ike and he hits me off stage and I go to glide and I literally don't move at all. My fire-spin just keeps me in the same place, then kills me after being sent into free-fall.
 

Nomzr

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Wait, it doesn't say in the changelog, but it feels like his neutral-ground got slowed a bit. Any truth to this?
 

QuincyJones

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Mar 22, 2014
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Columbus Ohio
Like many have said before, new glide and glair are awful, killing much of our finishing power from vertical combos against opponents who DI correctly. This also removes many of our ledge options, no longer allowing us to do instant glair from the ledge or lagless glide cancel to stage. Overall I am very very unhappy with the new glide and think it was much more of a nerf than was necessary.

That being said, new fair is AMAZING. It's so fast and the sour spot sets up as well as old sour fair if not better for a myriad of followups.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
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Like many have said before, new glide and glair are awful, killing much of our finishing power from vertical combos against opponents who DI correctly. This also removes many of our ledge options, no longer allowing us to do instant glair from the ledge or lagless glide cancel to stage. Overall I am very very unhappy with the new glide and think it was much more of a nerf than was necessary.

That being said, new fair is AMAZING. It's so fast and the sour spot sets up as well as old sour fair if not better for a myriad of followups.
From a design perspective I think vertical kill potential being lowered is a compromise due to Zard's newfound edge-guarding potency thanks to both ledge mechanics and recovery nerfs across the cast.

We a pillaring Jiggs now
 

Blank Mauser

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After playing in a tourney with 3.5 I just feel like Zard's bad match-ups really just got even harder. Sure you can edgegaurd people but the lack of any invul on glair AND the reduced hitboxes at the same time make yourself much easier to edgegaurd. I am actually all for this, but at the same time removing the ability to angle it? I feel like all the practice with glide tricks went down the drain. Zard also still loses to other characters with high disjoint while at the same time gets edgegaurded easier. So the match-ups where it matters most (Chars like Ivy, Pit, MK) he still has a losing match-up in imo.

Actually I'm okay with not being able to wavebounce glide end either. But just the fact you can't angle glide at the start-up really kills its use on-stage. I'm okay with pretty much every nerf besides that since it makes the character significantly less fun. The lack of disjoint on f-tilt hurts too, specially when edgegaurding. But I understand that landing a random f-tilt anti-air and leading into an edgegaurd would be extremely good and still kind of is extremely good.

The only other buff besides fair I can see is the buff to sourspot d-tilt? Not sure if its really a buff, seems like the move is ridic vulnerable to CC now. Though why use d-tilt at that range when you can just use jab. Oh well... I'm okay with working harder for my wins to be honest. I just have a lot less fun with the new glide in terms of flashy ledge cancel **** that was already risky to do since you lost all your jumps.
 

ꓰspeon

Sun Pokemon
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The only other buff besides fair I can see is the buff to sourspot d-tilt? Not sure if its really a buff, seems like the move is ridic vulnerable to CC now. Though why use d-tilt at that range when you can just use jab. Oh well... I'm okay with working harder for my wins to be honest.
Dtilt changes are just a nerf all over. On a non-kill, setup move, increased KBG and decreased BKB mean way more reliance on % to setup, also the changed angle means that DI now kills any setups this move might award.
 
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Yomi-no-Kuni

Smash Lord
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@Glide and Glair: Yes, onstage use to cancel on the ground is dead.
However: Glidestall still works, and Glideattack onto the stage should also still work, as the Glide attack angle starts out high, and then automatically goes lower until you can start controling the glide. Have not tested, but i am 90% certain it'll work.
Also: Platform canceling from below still works, but is even harder because of the flexible Glideattack angle. So now its not only figuring out the right hight, but also figuring out the right moment in the glide startup in connection to the distance you are under the platform. It was hella hard before, now it seems so hard i won't bother practicing it.
I already found something cool though. On dreamland you can run of the lower platform, start the glide, and glidecancel (even edgecancel to nair) on the other lower platform. I'm pretty sure this will work on all stages with a 3 plate setup and does not require you to adjust the glide angle. Really cool stuff!

Short Videos of everything Glide related coming up

Short1: Glide Stall analysed and explained: 4:04

Short2: Edgehog Options analysed and explained[Glidecancel, Flamehog and Reverse Wavedash]: 6:45
Next up:Done: Edgehog options: Glidecancel, Flamedrop and reverse Wavedash compared and explained. There is one more option which i forgot and cannot think of right now. Will add if someone reminds me what it is.

Possibly in that video or one of its own: Next Up: Glidecancel from under Platforms, Glidecancel as Platform movement (see above for closer explanation)

I will probably do another thread for all my videos, if you guys don't mind me spamming it up in here


Please, if you know a cool charizard Tech that you'd like to have analysed and explained, feel free to ask!
 
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BluntedMask

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Mar 19, 2014
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Western New York
How has no one mentioned the dair change? You can actually sh dair on wario ware and yoshis now! Plus fair is so much better as of now.

I'm loving these changes.
 

Blank Mauser

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Yes, no more accidentally landing on low platforms from dair which is nice.

Today I'm going to try and test which of Zard's aerials are the most + on shield hopefully.

Edit: Done, posting on the Frame Data Thread.
 
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Merfect

Learn your true self
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Lots of people complaining about Zard's nerfs. I don't know if you guys realize this, but almost every character got nerfed in this demo. At least we didn't completely lose a move like Meta Knight did.
As for the Glide nerf, it's part of the overall recovery nerf on the the entire cast. Zard is still one of the better off characters when it comes to recovery. We're just going to have to get used to the new glide.
Keep on Zarding people, he's still a good character.
 

QuincyJones

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As for the Glide nerf, it's part of the overall recovery nerf on the the entire cast. Zard is still one of the better off characters when it comes to recovery. We're just going to have to get used to the new glide.
Except that the glide nerf didn't really hurt his recovery at all. what it hurt was his neutral game with the loss of glide tomahawk/glair mixups as well as the loss of many of his ATS, and his combo finishing potential with glair as a finisher on opponents who DI away from aerial combos.
 

Blank Mauser

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I'm not complaining about Zard nerfs. I would rather Zard be nerfed this patch than buffed. I just think the glide change was bad from a design perspective.

Personally I think the move shouldn't have that much horizontal or vertical knockback. It should have less hits, and the shrunken hitboxes and invul nerf were fine. But its use as a mobility option on-stage should stay. It wasn't broken in the slightest since if you got hit out of it, you lost all your jumps. The only problem was trying to edgegaurd it and being blasted all the way to the opposite side of the stage. Since it was such a good tool hitbox and knockback-wise.

There's no doubt he takes more skill and precision to use now. But I'm still allowed to complain that its less fun without glide and overall just feels clunky and awkward. Example he can still glide attack and glide end during the animation, so literally all he lost was the control over it. He can still instant glide attack and get away from aerial combos quite freely. Which are easily seen as negative aspects to the move in my opinion. While I'm pretty sure no one would complain about being able to angle the glide earlier.
 

Merfect

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Except that the glide nerf didn't really hurt his recovery at all. what it hurt was his neutral game with the loss of glide tomahawk/glair mixups as well as the loss of many of his ATS, and his combo finishing potential with glair as a finisher on opponents who DI away from aerial combos.
Yeah, it kinda sucks that glide isn't as useful anymore in neutral or for finishing combos, but I honestly think we an do without those. We still have our dash dance game and plenty of other ways of getting a kill.
 
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Doraki

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Did noone notice how they changed the ******** sounds zard was making when jumping, into something more believable ?
(I'm feeling they changed a lot of sounds in fact)

Also you no longer die when you break your shield on the left ledge of yoshi island brawl. Game changing, I know.

R.I.P glair combos
 

Yomi-no-Kuni

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Oh yeah, i remember
really haven't been playing alot of 3.02, so i didn't notice those aethetic changes
btw, since when does he have his idle animation where he breathes fire?

edit: i think you can still do quick glairs to finish of combos where the opponent DIs out to the side, its just really not flexible enough to cancel it on the ground below. everything else works (just harder to pull of and not as well)
 
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Scatz

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The Glairs are fast enough to make platform canceling a possible thing.
 

Blank Mauser

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The risk/reward is pretty disproportionate on platform canceling it since you need really specific spacing that will be different for each stage. But if people can do it with Pikachu well...

I definitely like the new fair and changes to up-B. A much needed adjustment to make it easier to sweetspot.

Though I think I'd rather lose the ability to do aerials/up-B after glide than to lose the control I had over it. Seeing as the former would make more sense in nerfing his recovery. It'd hurt his edgegaurding a little though.
 
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Scatz

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I'm sure people will learn it one way or another if Glair doesn't get touched majorly in the next series of patches. Pika mains do it often (btw, they're going insane over the nerfs to QAC), and spacies can it fairly consistently. I think that once we find out the spacing for it, it'll be potent as a form of pressure, especially to an opponent shielding on a platform (get pushed off from Glair into w/e option we have).
 

QuincyJones

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It's(glair waveland) super telegraphed now with the obvious startup animation and necessary ultra precise spacing. I also don't see how the glair waveland will be a consistent form of pressure when Glair is actually negatively disjointed minus the final hit. A mario player actually jabbed me out of my glair yesterday.
 
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Blank Mauser

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It was used for that before already, but now after losing disjoint/slight invul AND it being less applicable without specific positioning it will be a while before I use it in tourney matches again. If at all.

The risk of simply dying to Nair OOS or something is too great for something so gimmicky.
 
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Merfect

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I find myself using Fair a lot more in this demo.
It might just be the new animation, but it definitely feels better to land.
 

QuincyJones

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I used fair a lot in the 3.02 as well. The lingering hitbox was super good. That being said, new fair is definitely better. The sour spot is quite good for comboing, though less good than the old one... but the speed at which the hitbox comes out definitely feels faster. I know it wasn't stated that it is faster but it definitely feels like it.
 

Heroofhatz

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So we finally have an answer for why gliding was changed, directly from Metroid himself.

"Contrary to how it may feel, the glide angles were untouched from 3.02 to 3.5 (max upward angle of 50, max downwards of -60). This retention from 3.02 is actually inconsistent with the modifications made to Pit’s and MK’s glides, whose max upward angles were both changed from 70/80 to 45, respectively.

The inability to angle glide upward upon starting it may be due to the forced starting animation, which was necessary to eliminate glide braking. Charizard’s glide previously overrode any momentum he had before starting it, which lead to a mechanic that PMDT members have dubbed “glide braking” (similar to G&W’s bucket braking) in which Charizard can SDI attacks downward at high %s to force a missed tech animation while sliding off the stage – this puts Charizard out of hitstun from the attack and allows him to immediately glide, which negated his momentum and allowed him to survive attacks while recovering to the stage (granted, without any jumps but still the ability to up+B). Such an ability was blatantly out of line with the PMDT’s general stance on weakening recoveries, particularly on a character who is so heavy and difficult to knock offstage to begin with. After attempting to fix the issue several times, none of which were met with success, glide was eventually given the starting animation that is currently in 3.5, which factors into account Charizard’s current momentum when initiating glide rather than completely negating it like previous iterations. Although the starting animation does also add commitment on glide start-up, this added commitment is in line with the changes to MK’s and Pit’s glide, with the former having a max glide duration of 80 frames and the inability to return to a glide state after its first aerial usage while the latter now expends all but 1 jump and has IASA frames delayed by 3 frames; it is regrettable that such a drastic change had to be made to Charizard’s glide and that it alters the timing for glair follow-ups, but it was necessary to remove glide braking and this change is consistent with the overall theme of adding commitment to all glides. (For what it’s worth, it’s still possible to wavebounce glide start, but it has a less noticeable effect compared to before.)

The other noticeable change made to Charizard’s glide is the new turnaround animation upon canceling it. Although there was a consensus to standardize and add commitment to the three glides, the PMDT still wanted them to be unique from each other – hence why only MK has a glide timer and Pit’s glide only reduces him to 1 jump instead of taking away all of his jumps. Along the same lines, Charizard’s glide is the only glide that can be reversed upon glide end. Rather than eliminating this unique trait, this trait was retained but an animation was added to make the turnaround more visually consistent – Charizard’s previous ability to immediately face the opposite direction in the air upon ending a move without going into the Z-axis was jarring compared to other actions that cause the user to turn around (Jigglypuff’s, Kirby’s, MKs, and D3’s double-jump turnarounds, for example). As you may have noticed though, this turnaround animation does alter some timings for glide end turnaround tricks; for what it’s worth, I didn’t feel too strongly about this change one way or the other but there were those in the PMDT who felt that the lack of a turnaround animation looked unprofessional and visually jarring."
 

Blank Mauser

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Well I knew about Glide Braking being removed, but didn't know the start-up animation was for that purpose.

The problem I have is this. Supposedly it adds commitment on glide start-up, but in reality you can cancel the starting animation just as early as before. As can be seen here:

-Glide Attack and GlideEnd interrupts made earlier to compensate for added startup animation.
All it nerfs is control. I don't think that sounds terribly in line with the design goals.

If you could somehow add the ability to angle the start-up animation, or reduce the start-up animation drastically I don't see a problem with it. Seeing as how like I said, you can cancel it very early with Glair anyways. And I don't see Glair braking being a thing as of now.

OR I would honestly rather lose the ability to up-B and aerial out of glide than lose its control. That seems like it fits more in line with the design goals. Charizard doesn't even need glide to cover large horizontal distance when he has side-B and two jumps. This would make glide braking much less degenerate than what it would be otherwise. Also the glide end as is now puts you quite low if you turnaround anyways...

Does Metroid or anyone designing Zard still read the Zard boards?
 
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SillyBear

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Nov 18, 2014
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I main charizard and zelda (din fire nerf.. :( )and the new glide just feels dreadful to me, the inability to control yourself immediately just means you're so much more predictable and very hard to get back on the stage from below it. I feel like both my mained characters got nerfed really hard, zelda was possibly deserved but no way charizard deserved all this.
 

Heroofhatz

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Well I knew about Glide Braking being removed, but didn't know the start-up animation was for that purpose.

The problem I have is this. Supposedly it adds commitment on glide start-up, but in reality you can cancel the starting animation just as early as before. As can be seen here:



All it nerfs is control. I don't think that sounds terribly in line with the design goals.

If you could somehow add the ability to angle the start-up animation, or reduce the start-up animation drastically I don't see a problem with it. Seeing as how like I said, you can cancel it very early with Glair anyways. And I don't see Glair braking being a thing as of now.

OR I would honestly rather lose the ability to up-B and aerial out of glide than lose its control. That seems like it fits more in line with the design goals. Charizard doesn't even need glide to cover large horizontal distance when he has side-B and two jumps. This would make glide braking much less degenerate than what it would be otherwise. Also the glide end as is now puts you quite low if you turnaround anyways...

Does Metroid or anyone designing Zard still read the Zard boards?

@ metroid1117 metroid1117 and @Jiangjunizzy
That would probably be the best way to make sure that we grab at least someone's attention. More than likely this forum might be stalked by someone in the PMDT. That being said, having an answer does put my mind at ease. and thanks to Metroid for taking the time to actually give us a response, it is much appreciated.
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
3,786
Location
Chester, IL
Many thanks to the Charizard Skype group for inquiring about the changes in a mature manner instead of acting like others have, it was well-worth my time to address you guys' concerns.

For anyone who's curious, my response to their inquires is as follows (I omitted the name of the person who contacted me out of privacy reasons):
metroid1117 said:
Hi ___________,

You’re right, I was not the one directly responsible for the changes made to Charizard. However, as a member of the PMDT and one of the primary playtester for the character, I have more privileged insight than most people.

Contrary to how it may feel, the glide angles were untouched from 3.02 to 3.5 (max upward angle of 50, max downwards of -60). This retention from 3.02 is actually inconsistent with the modifications made to Pit’s and MK’s glides, whose max upward angles were both changed from 70/80 to 45, respectively.

The inability to angle glide upward upon starting it may be due to the forced starting animation, which was necessary to eliminate glide braking. Charizard’s glide previously overrode any momentum he had before starting it, which lead to a mechanic that PMDT members have dubbed “glide braking” (similar to G&W’s bucket braking) in which Charizard can SDI attacks downward at high %s to force a missed tech animation while sliding off the stage – this puts Charizard out of hitstun from the attack and allows him to immediately glide, which negated his momentum and allowed him to survive attacks while recovering to the stage (granted, without any jumps but still the ability to up+B). Such an ability was blatantly out of line with the PMDT’s general stance on weakening recoveries, particularly on a character who is so heavy and difficult to knock offstage to begin with. After attempting to fix the issue several times, none of which were met with success, glide was eventually given the starting animation that is currently in 3.5, which factors into account Charizard’s current momentum when initiating glide rather than completely negating it like previous iterations. Although the starting animation does also add commitment on glide start-up, this added commitment is in line with the changes to MK’s and Pit’s glide, with the former having a max glide duration of 80 frames and the inability to return to a glide state after its first aerial usage while the latter now expends all but 1 jump and has IASA frames delayed by 3 frames; it is regrettable that such a drastic change had to be made to Charizard’s glide and that it alters the timing for glair follow-ups, but it was necessary to remove glide braking and this change is consistent with the overall theme of adding commitment to all glides. (For what it’s worth, it’s still possible to wavebounce glide start, but it has a less noticeable effect compared to before.)

The other noticeable change made to Charizard’s glide is the new turnaround animation upon canceling it. Although there was a consensus to standardize and add commitment to the three glides, the PMDT still wanted them to be unique from each other – hence why only MK has a glide timer and Pit’s glide only reduces him to 1 jump instead of taking away all of his jumps. Along the same lines, Charizard’s glide is the only glide that can be reversed upon glide end. Rather than eliminating this unique trait, this trait was retained but an animation was added to make the turnaround more visually consistent – Charizard’s previous ability to immediately face the opposite direction in the air upon ending a move without going into the Z-axis was jarring compared to other actions that cause the user to turn around (Jigglypuff’s, Kirby’s, MKs, and D3’s double-jump turnarounds, for example). As you may have noticed though, this turnaround animation does alter some timings for glide end turnaround tricks; for what it’s worth, I didn’t feel too strongly about this change one way or the other but there were those in the PMDT who felt that the lack of a turnaround animation looked unprofessional and visually jarring.

I hope this answer is satisfactory for you and the other Charizard mains on the Skype group. I tried to be open and address your inquiries, but if you have other questions, please let me know what else I can do.
 
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MAZAHS

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 21, 2014
Messages
11
Location
Pacific Northwest
Can someone tell me the benefits of this patch?

Like I played him before and I liked him a lot! But after this patch i'm considering dropping him. In this thread I noticed that there are some benefits but just....

ugh this update actually might have given me a small depression.

Can someone just list some benefits I want a reason to keep him

(Other than swag. He always has swag)
 
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Blank Mauser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
2,904
Location
Iowa
Dair no longer gets stuck on low platforms like Warioware.

Fair has more reach.

I believe Up-B can no longer be crouch canceled, though its invul was shifted. Technically could be a big buff.

His spot dodge is better.
 
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