Difficult Matchups? - Ask Matchup Questions Here

[Forever 9]

Megaman, Greninja and Rosalina. I always have troubles with those. Oh yea, and playing against another Ness too... lol :D

 

[Uffe]

I've got a problem with Bowser, Rosaluma, Sonic (as usual), and I want to say that's about it. Bowser's up B is ridiculous on the shield that it sometimes even knocks Ness out of it. This Rosaluma kept rolling around, and it confuses me because she disappears when she does so. I really wish I could upload some videos, but I have no idea how to go about doing so.

 

[Code Bread]

I've got a problem with Bowser, Rosaluma, Sonic (as usual), and I want to say that's about it. Bowser's up B is ridiculous on the shield that it sometimes even knocks Ness out of it. This Rosaluma kept rolling around, and it confuses me because she disappears when she does so. I really wish I could upload some videos, but I have no idea how to go about doing so.

Tap Rosalina on your touch screen so it tracks her. It works for Zelda and Palutena's warp moves, I'm pretty sure it'll work for Rosalina's dodges, too. If it does, it'll really help you track and punish.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Megaman, Greninja and Rosalina. I always have troubles with those. Oh yea, and playing against another Ness too... lol :D

Ness' bat can reflect basically everything from Mega Man. And I mean basically everything. Magnet can absorb most of it too.

 

[Code Bread]

Ness' bat can reflect basically everything from Mega Man. And I mean basically everything. Magnet can absorb most of it too.

Can it reflect his dtilt

 

[Uffe]

Tap Rosalina on your touch screen so it tracks her. It works for Zelda and Palutena's warp moves, I'm pretty sure it'll work for Rosalina's dodges, too. If it does, it'll really help you track and punish.

I'll have to give that a shot. I completely forgot about that! Thanks!

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Can it reflect his dtilt

Fine, not everything. But the game treats his jab and fSmash as projectiles.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Fine, not everything. But the game treats his jab and fSmash as projectiles.

ENERGY PROJECTILES
(I stressed it because 30% heal on Mega Man's Fsmash is like REALLY important)

 

[Jonkku]

The only moves of Mega Man that aren't projectiles are up and down tilts, forward and back aerials, up special, and grab. I assume leaf shield also works as a projectile once thrown.
I'd say that counts as "basically everything".

 

[Code Bread]

ENERGY PROJECTILES
(I stressed it because 30% heal on Mega Man's Fsmash is like REALLY important)

It's pretty relevant too, since Megaman's fsmashes are really easy to read.

The only moves of Mega Man that aren't projectiles are up and down tilts, forward and back aerials, up special, and grab. I assume leaf shield also works as a projectile once thrown.
I'd say that counts as "basically everything".

You're right, I shouldn't have joked about it?

 

[Meccs]

I've gotten a lot better vs Rosalina the last couple matches I've played against her, but I've never been gimped so I doubt I've been playing oens that are all that great.
I'm basically helpless against a good ZSS. I feel just completely outranged the whole fight.
Given we have PSI Magnet, Robin shouldn't be able to camp that easily so idk why I have so much trouble preventing good Robins from camping but it's tough for me.

 

[Redcard]

What are my options vs. Sheik?
I feel as if she's too fast for me to do much, and her needles are a menace trying to deal with. She runs circles around me when I try to get back onstage, and punishes whiffed/blocked PK Fires like it's nothing.
I also have trouble reacting to her fish flop kick thing, as it seems pretty safe on block, and the input lag in FG makes it hard to spot dodge or roll on reaction.
This is a question brought about by copious amounts of salt.

 

[Freikugel]

What are my options vs. Sheik?
I feel as if she's too fast for me to do much, and her needles are a menace trying to deal with. She runs circles around me when I try to get back onstage, and punishes whiffed/blocked PK Fires like it's nothing.
I also have trouble reacting to her fish flop kick thing, as it seems pretty safe on block, and the input lag in FG makes it hard to spot dodge or roll on reaction.
This is a question brought about by copious amounts of salt.

Here are a few things I noticed...

There's nothing to be done but approach first; Sheik players are smart enough to keep on Needling, due to that insane range.

If she's intercepting your jumps during recovery, try simultaneously air dodging. Aside from providing safety, I also think it has more vertical distance and comes off faster. If she's disrupting your PK Thunders with projectiles, then practice shooting from slightly below or above the stage (I personally have a lot of trouble PKT2ing while hugging the side). It's a risky move to physically edgeguard Ness, so if they come out swinging, defend yourself with PK Thunder's tail, then blast them. Just make certain you can still reach the ledge -- though if Sheik's at one stock, it'll barely matter.

Against Sheik and other fast characters (Falco, Capt. Falcon), you have to reliably predict and trick your opponent to land PK Fires and PK Thunder 2's. Keep in mind the range and trajectory of PK Fire, and its correlation to the enemy's position. For some reason, a lot of people tend to sidestep backward (instinctive?), so surprise them. A tactic Ness players should use is forcing them to react, so you can catch them immediately after their sidestep ends. Unfortunately, this forces you to fight in close quarters, so play extra cautious.

Honestly, though? Ness' dash attack is generally a much better approach, due to its disjointed range (which I find often catches foes off-guard). You put yourself at less danger and air combo from it, just as a PK Fire+Throw. It also gives you more move options to use; Fair+jump+Fair+Fair, Uair+jump+Uair, etc.

Ness is a very slippery and agile character in the air, and if you take advantage of air dodges, you can live to asinine percentages. In fact, I hardly use PK Thunder for recovery, and consistently live to 160~180%. I will admit many Sheik players expertly combo with their forward/up air, but a quick air dodge disrupts their pattern.

I dunno how to help you with Bouncing Fish, though. Sheiks I've encountered rarely use that move save recovery. I'll also say that all the Sheik battles I've fought have come down to the last minute, but in actuality Sheik lacks the utility necessary to effectively combat Ness.

In other words, they're stally, annoying goddamn characters to fight.

 

[Luco]

I would say i've had a similar experience, although i've never had issues with bouncing fish. I'm a rather close quarters ness main due to my playstyle revolving primarily around Nairs and grab combos, so usually when Sheik uses bouncing fish she goes right over my head and lands on the other side. I've versed a few sheiks now and i've only been hit by it I think twice. If you're trying to play more campy it's difficult. I feel sheik's definitely someone you'll have to play an aggro game against; but that's just my way of dealing with her.

I think Sheik will probably be a -1 MU. I think she has superior options on the ground especially in her punish and camp game, however much like in Brawl she will find it difficult to kill whereas we'll have less of a problem with that. But she'll be much like she was in Brawl or how Falco was (especially for Lucas) in that although the MU itself isn't all that bad, it's annoying and frustrating as hell to play against. Thankfully it tends to be that way for the other person too, so there you go.

 

[Eagleye893]

I hate playing against ZSS. That's the only matchup I can think of that is a difficult win off the bat (no pun intended). Everything else is manageable or in our favor, though Sonic, Rosalina, and some characters with more range are decently difficult. I haven't played a significant number of matches against good players on every character, but I have the most experience against sonic, whose playstyle I can't really get used to.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i've hear Rosalina can simply get rid of PK thunder via down b...

 

[thesage]

Nair is very useful against Sheik. It gets you out of combos and may outprioritize bouncing fish. You can di her combo throw up or down depending on percent to make her miss her follow up uair.

 

[Luco]

I made a trip to the Rosalina boards and I believe they'll end up considering our MU as 6:4 in their favour.

Regardless, something to note about Rosalina's GP is that PKT still maintains a hitbox AS it's being sucked up by Rosalina. In addition to this, the PKT becomes Rosalina's. What this basically means is she can damage you with your own PKT which obviously allows you to use it again. The other thing with that being that if you've been hit by your own PKT you've probably been launched far away enough from R&L to not have to worry about another.

 

[HotelWaffle]

Ness is good against bowser. Ive had a hard time beating Mega Man, Sonic (hate this one), Zss.

 

[thesage]

Hey guys, give reasons as to why you find matchups difficult so that way we can help each other out. Hard to formulate strategies if we don't know what's going on.

 

[ottobot]

zss has been causing me a lot of problems, i have issues defending against her approaches and tend to get juggled by that multi-hit usmash. the only real upside of the matchup is that you can completely eliminate the paralyzer shots from play with bat or magnet, which tends to be an advantage as zss's like to use it as an approach tool

 

[Karuzo]

I have decent problems against Little Mac as Ness. I can beat him with almost every other character, but I can't beat him with Ness somehow. :/

 

[NocturnalQuill]

ZSS seems to be a recurring issue. I've had trouble against her too.

 

[Karuzo]

Yeah building up % against ZSS is tough, but once you can grab her later she's dead.

 

[Freikugel]

Funny. I began to dabble in ZSS today. ;p

Anyway, all the ZSS's I've faced have an incredibly repetitive attack pattern, and only KO reliably with their Up-B -- and even then, the killing final hit is easy to dodge.

I suppose as long as you avoid getting within her special and smash attack's range (any of them), then you're A-ok. If she's punishing your approach with Side-B, side-step out of the way before striking. It's harder than it sounds, though, I'll admit.

Also, they have an odd habit of killing themselves trying to edgeguard physically; ZSS's air game is too risky for that IMO. Which is why it's beneficial to get her in the air as much as possible. Add on top of that poor recovery save tether (down-B is obvious and up-B is just lacking in general). Grab her, D-throw and F-air away.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Funny. I began to dabble in ZSS today. ;p

Anyway, all the ZSS's I've faced have an incredibly repetitive attack pattern, and only KO reliably with their Up-B -- and even then, the killing final hit is easy to dodge.

I suppose as long as you avoid getting within her special and smash attack's range (any of them), then you're A-ok. If she's punishing your approach with Side-B, side-step out of the way before striking. It's harder than it sounds, though, I'll admit.

Also, they have an odd habit of killing themselves trying to edgeguard physically; ZSS's air game is too risky for that IMO. Which is why it's beneficial to get her in the air as much as possible. Add on top of that poor recovery save tether (down-B is obvious and up-B is just lacking in general). Grab her, D-throw and F-air away.

How would you suggest approaching?

 

[Freikugel]

How would you suggest approaching?

I'll need to conduct more research. I'll probably go experiment and purposely seek out ZSS players Online. May contact forum users if necessary. Suppose I should record and upload it too.

While it may be just a case of fighting unskilled players, here's what I've gathered so far...

Letting her approach has been most successful. ZSS's play very aggressively, and combined with that speed can prove reckless (similar to Captain Falcon and Sonic in SSBB). I'd suggest exercising patience and playing defensively, waiting for her to slip up. Mitigates damage received and allows you to plan ahead, optimizing your combos. If you mistakenly end up in a combo, most of ZSS's combos go directly upward, so an air dodge will resolve that. It hardly matters at low percentages, save for that Up-B. And if you find yourself being juggled, fast-fall air dodge onto the ground as she's about to make contact (it takes a bit of timing) -- this goes for most other juggling games. Be wary of her Up-smash, as another said; you may have to make for the ledge.

Special mention to Ness' Dash attack, too. Nice alternative to PK Fire that more reliably hits due to its disjointed range. It's a bit harder to initiate F-air combos from it, though. I suppose if you just want to get ZSS in the air and maybe juggle her a bit with U-airs. Out of reaction, ZSS will attempt to nail you with her D-air or Down-B, but again, if you're playing defensive you should easily evade it.

 

[thesage]

For the zss matchup you gotta shield her projectile/whip and continue to approach with a shield drop dash. Grab combos work good on her. Di her combo throw (I think it's down) up so that way she can't combo with it at kill percents. If you are smart she shouldn't be landing any kill moves on you. She may get you to high percents easily, but her kill moves are still garbage.

Her dash attack can be punished with a shield drop reverse grab. You can also roll away from zss as she dash attacks and you will be put in a good position to punish the endlag (also very troll to do lol).

Get her in the air and pkt juggle. Beat out her dair with a tailwhip.

 

[JML]

For the zss matchup you gotta shield her projectile/whip and continue to approach with a shield drop dash. Grab combos work good on her. Di her combo throw (I think it's down) up so that way she can't combo with it at kill percents. If you are smart she shouldn't be landing any kill moves on you. She may get you to high percents easily, but her kill moves are still garbage.

Her dash attack can be punished with a shield drop reverse grab. You can also roll away from zss as she dash attacks and you will be put in a good position to punish the endlag (also very troll to do lol).

Get her in the air and pkt juggle. Beat out her dair with a tailwhip.

Funny. I began to dabble in ZSS today. ;p

Anyway, all the ZSS's I've faced have an incredibly repetitive attack pattern, and only KO reliably with their Up-B -- and even then, the killing final hit is easy to dodge.

I suppose as long as you avoid getting within her special and smash attack's range (any of them), then you're A-ok. If she's punishing your approach with Side-B, side-step out of the way before striking. It's harder than it sounds, though, I'll admit.

Also, they have an odd habit of killing themselves trying to edgeguard physically; ZSS's air game is too risky for that IMO. Which is why it's beneficial to get her in the air as much as possible. Add on top of that poor recovery save tether (down-B is obvious and up-B is just lacking in general). Grab her, D-throw and F-air away.

I can never reliably grab combo any ZSS. Tips? Down throw to fair never works because she always hops out of range or some how just avoids it. I can usually land it on other matchups, but for some reason I always have a tough time with her. Maybe I've just been playing some good ZSS.

 

[Luco]

I can never reliably grab combo any ZSS. Tips? Down throw to fair never works because she always hops out of range or some how just avoids it. I can usually land it on other matchups, but for some reason I always have a tough time with her. Maybe I've just been playing some good ZSS.

If anything that's a better indicator. ZSS can avoid our combos with DI and vectoring after the Dthrow. it's not guaranteed on her, though if you get the first Fair in you've probably got it.

 

[ShadowCircus]

As (and to a lesser extent and) , I am having way more trouble with than I feel I should be having. Even the few times I get lucky and ring him out, it's an ordeal and I've already sustained anywhere from 80 to 150% damage. At best it's irritating and at worst I feel I'm too mature to mention to others how mad some of his kit makes me. Rather than giving up on the game or getting mad at the person deciding to play him I've decided to seek some advice on how to consistently beat this sizable annoyance(pun only slightly intended). Please help. I don't want to be that guy who says he refuses to play with someone because of how personally frustrating it is to play against them.

If I had to list some particular grievances, it would be that all of his air normals have incredibly high priority over anything I have and that his edge-guarding potential is less than fair considering that in this iteration of the game, he's faster than he's ever been, removing his biggest hindrance from other games. His grabs are pretty much death sentences at even medium damage. Aside from those things any other advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.

 

[Code Bread]

Given his large hurtbox, Bowser has a hard time escaping grab combos and PK Fire. In my experience, Bowsers roll a LOT. I don't know if that's just me, but they seem roll almost as much as Little Macs. A lot of Bowsers moves can be punished with a nair or PK Fire. This isn't really legitimate advice, but it's gotten me by so far. Abuse grab, nair, and PK Fire more than usual.

 

[Eagleye893]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention. If you SDI ZSS's upB behind and above her at the end of it, you won't get hit by the knockback and get free followups. That's the only thing that I got going against her. Otherwise, the fact that we've got relatively short-ranged moves compared to the rest of the cast makes it easy for her to sit back and jump around to avoid hits while throwing out her longer-ranged and some disjointed moves (sideB, B, FAir/BAir, Smashes, upB). Her move-speed being so much better than ours is another problem I have.

I do agree though, she has very few reliable kill options until she gets the lock-up.

 

[Luco]

You guys won't believe this, but quite a few Rosalina mains seem to think we're a difficult match-up for her. I was suitably surprised; I'm yet to see evidence that the MU stretches more evenly than +2/-2 (which seems crazy good because we're Ness mains, isn't it great being good tier this time around? :D ).

I will say this about Rosalina. I Suspect we win pretty hard in the air and on the ground her camping is less than useful. That said, I feel our offstage and close up game vs her is hard to deal with. Does anyone have a more in depth analysis of this MU?

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

I've had problems with only bowser. Not even sonics he only has one good standard combo which can be broken easily. Bowser has super armor against po fire and his forward arial which is super anoying. Heh super armor super annoying.

 

[kirby509]

How do I deal with Mr. Game and Watch? I keep getting crushed by his bair...

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

His

How do I deal with Mr. Game and Watch? I keep getting crushed by his bair...

his back air? I think thats a mental thing.

 

[Luco]

Mr Game and Watch has become a significantly easier match-up for us than in brawl because he's now actually something like the third lightest character in the game (finally it makes sense why Dthrowing him takes like a tenth of a second and everyone else is up there at like half a second ). This means, seeing as we've retained our kill power from Brawl, don't be afraid to go for kills at around 100% now.

Also depends on your level of rage at the time of course but he's pretty easy to send flying now.

 

[thesage]

D-throw has a similar glitch to melee where on light characters it does almost 0 damage (or 0 damage I forgot). Relavunt to mr gaw

 

[Code Bread]

You guys won't believe this, but quite a few Rosalina mains seem to think we're a difficult match-up for her. I was suitably surprised; I'm yet to see evidence that the MU stretches more evenly than +2/-2 (which seems crazy good because we're Ness mains, isn't it great being good tier this time around? :D ).

I will say this about Rosalina. I Suspect we win pretty hard in the air and on the ground her camping is less than useful. That said, I feel our offstage and close up game vs her is hard to deal with. Does anyone have a more in depth analysis of this MU?

This is really interesting. What do they say about the matchup? Perhaps it's because we have an easy time cracking Luma?

I've had problems with only bowser. Not even sonics he only has one good standard combo which can be broken easily. Bowser has super armor against po fire and his forward arial which is super anoying. Heh super armor super annoying.

Bowser super armors PK Fire? I know he gets super armor at lower percents, but I've never seen one power through PK Fire because of its multiple hitboxes.