different brawl+ projects

[PanzerOceania]

Now I know this has been talked about to a degree already and I already think we have something great going here. We have an official unified code base for brawl+ competitive, we have a thread with all the new bleeding edge codes, and we have a thread for casual / free for all codes.

still I think even within those groups there are different agenda's going on etc. And instead of having a win / lose mentality and only one set of ideas is accepted, I think we should have several projects. Now I agree that the brawlplusery is our number one priority right now, and we do need a unified focus on that to get it to fruition etc.

I also understand that we need some unity, everyone using their own custom code is fine, but for big projects to go places it's good to have one goal etc.

This is why I suggest several more project categories, several of which have already been talked about, and I don't think any of them are wrong or more important than the others besides maybe the main competitive codebase which is the most important. So even though this isn't the first time these topics have been brought up, I think this is the first time it's been come at with this kind of an approach.

so with out further ado...

First off we have the two organized groups that are already in existence, I have everything in a uniform naming format but of course the first two have already been named as brawlplusery and free for all.

Smash Tournament (aka brawlplusery)

Smash Casual (aka free for all)

Smash Gold -- codes to make brawl as close to smash 64 as possible

Smash Melee -- codes to make brawl as close to melee as possible

Smash Integrity -- codes to enhance brawl without altering the core game that much, just little fixes

Smash Balance -- codes to balance character abilities as much as possible through individual character tweaking.

Smash IV --

codes and alterations to add new textures, music, and other things we might be able to do in the future, also provide a new unique playstyle. New characters, moves, or stages in the future if possible. If we can't add characters and levels this would be the project to replace characters as we would already have several other projects that keep the original brawl cast. I think this would be a great place for all these creative people to come together on one big project to make some really killer content.



The reason I put this stuff here is because I see people working towards the same overall goal but disagreeing on a lot of the sames things on a daily basis. Even within the people working on the competitive codebase I see.

Some people just want melee controls with brawl roster and graphics.

Some people want Smash gold like controls

some people want don't want to change that much about it, but just enough to make it competitive.

and then there are those who want to balance characters as much as possible.

I think providing outlets to these different ideas and goals will allow us to have our cake and eat it too. You can have the one idea you want in one of the main codebases, and reserve ideas that are only for the tournament edition for the tournament edition, and keep everything else out.

rather than trying to fit everything into one code, or everyone just having their own private codes, I think it would be beneficial to to as a community decide on roughly 5 main projects similar to the ones I listed and sticky them so that everyone is relatively happy and we have great big projects that accomplish a spectrum of goals.

Let me know what you guys think. Constructive criticism is great.

 

[Shell]

The goal of Brawl+ is, was, and always will be to deepen competitive play as much as possible while maintaining the easy-to-pick-up quality of vBrawl. Anything else is not Brawl+. I will not belabor this point further, but many do not understand it.

5 Main projects is 4 projects too many. You cannot simultaneously admit that we as a community are vulnerable to fragmentation and then suggest that we proceed with it anyway. People can mod their games however they want at home, but it would be a crime to divide our official fan base, even if only in half, let alone into fifths.

Sorry, but I don't have much constructive to say.

 

[PanzerOceania]

that's ok, it was just an idea and while thought was put into it, ideas can be bad, this is why I put it out there.

as you said segmentation is bad, and I also firmly believe that the best on greatest goal is competitive play.

I just see so much bickering daily and I thought that if there was some major support for the main different ideas, then everyone could get that stuff out of their system and still have their work be played by other people but at the end of the day

The work that is just for competitive play stays just that, and all else is purged. That was the concept behind this. I don't expect any great support, like I said, it's not exactly a new idea, just several old ideas formatted in a new way.

the idea is to get all the miscellaneous crap out of the main codebase, but people do want recognition, and also other people to play their ideas with them, so this would be a middle ground of sorts.

like it or not even within the people working on the main codebase, there is a lot of controversy, and I don't think we are ever going to get everyone to agree to let go of their idea. This way more people get their ideas accomplished but the main goal is not compromised.

This is also kinda about creating some order and structure to the Smash Workshop subforum and getting people that are scattered to work together to accomplish bigger things.

I really appreciate your input though SHeLL instead of just writing me off.

 

[GHNeko]

You also have to take into fact that one of the main issues with Brawl+ is unification. What most people are afraid of is a slew of different codesets and there not being a single standard for people to follow which fragments the community. Having all these codesets floating around just isnt positive for the image. If you actually want to pursue these projects, they WILL have to be under a different name/handle because it would not represent anything that B+ stands for.

 

[PanzerOceania]

right, that's plenty fair enough, and to be honest I'm not trying to push any agenda onto people and honestly it wouldn't work without a lot of support.

I guess nix the brawl plus names then, I'll get to editing that out now.

The way I see it is there already is a lot of segmentation, the idea would always be, Brawl+ competitive is always priority 1, but taking a lot of this already segmented group, and condensing it into a few groups.

This really is about the greater good of the community.

 

[matt4300]

hah, well I would just take the balanced brawl, Brawl + combine them, and get THE BEST GAME EVER/THAT WILL EVER be made.

but, yeh what Shell said... splitting the comunity further is a bad thing. Though it is inevitable that integrity/melee will be made because the codes are so easily accesible.

 

[Greenpoe]

Smash Gold, Smash Melee, Smash Integrity and Smash Balance--I don't think we should even think about that right now. At the moment, we don't want to divide the community... First let's try our best to establish a unified codeset. Besides, if people really want those changes, they can figure out which codes to turn on and off, but first, let's focus all our efforts on the best B+ we can make...oh, but a topic to maintain every code that's been created would be nice.

 

[cobaltblue]

Considering this is more or less the hacking forum and not just the B+ forum I'm having a hard time seeing where you are coming from tc. If the demand for say smash gold is great enough than it makes sense for someone else to create such a project and screw around with the current codes and values available to mimic 64 and debate with others interested in forming a standard for it.

To me that seems the problem with why we had those mad/had debates early on. People wanted to latch on to the current project started by others rather than take charge, start up a new thread discussing X project's physics and share any codes found with the main B+ workers.

 

[PanzerOceania]

Smash Gold, Smash Melee, Smash Integrity and Smash Balance--I don't think we should even think about that right now. At the moment, we don't want to divide the community... First let's try our best to establish a unified codeset. Besides, if people really want those changes, they can figure out which codes to turn on and off, but first, let's focus all our efforts on the best B+ we can make...oh, but a topic to maintain every code that's been created would be nice.

fair enough, that seems to be the general consensus here right now. I guess this will make more sense when brawl+ is more complete and stable. The idea is to give people who want one of these objectives as well as our current objectives to have an outlet but I guess it's just to early now. Perhaps later.

 

[CT Chia]

sounds like the many versions of windows. is there gonna be an ultimate version that contains everything?

 

[Dan_X]

The goal of Brawl+ is, was, and always will be to deepen competitive play as much as possible while maintaining the easy-to-pick-up quality of vBrawl. Anything else is not Brawl+. I will not belabor this point further, but many do not understand it.

5 Main projects is 4 projects too many. You cannot simultaneously admit that we as a community are vulnerable to fragmentation and then suggest that we proceed with it anyway. People can mod their games however they want at home, but it would be a crime to divide our official fan base, even if only in half, let alone into fifths.

Sorry, but I don't have much constructive to say.

I agree entirely, well said. Props man.

@PanzerOceania
I'm going to be honest when I say I didn't read the entire OP out of a fear that the community was going to be split more, I mean, I immediately went to respond because I knew the gist of what you were getting at. I do appreciate your ideas, just as I would anyone's, however it will kill our effort. It really would. Brawl+ needs the full of the community to gain ground, to be taking seriously, to make it to the tourney scene on a large scale. If all of a sudden all sorts of side projects pop up, then what? New combers to the modding world won't even know what to do, where to start, and what project standard to back. The idea behind Brawl+ is to make the best community backed mod for Brawl as possible. The idea is to make it easily accessible, taking out stupid complication like manual L-canceling, and focusing on fluid gameplay. All of our codes strive to improve the game, and we as a community deem said codes worthy or not for out effort.

The best thing to do is to continue to back Brawl+ as the standard. Though certain people may have rediculous ideas for Brawl+ the community as a whole is very careful with the changes. Every change is carefully thought out, and will work to stunning effect in the finished Brawl+. I trust the community, I trust the many people working so hard on this project. It feels good to know that I don't have to worry about any one change, and how to implement it on my own, I have a community to help me.

:D

 

[GHNeko]

If it continues on like this, maybe B+ should get a subforum here.

 

[leafgreen386]

If it continues on like this, maybe B+ should get a subforum here.

I think we should be grateful we even have the smash workshop. Sharing this forum with a few small flash games is a whole lot better than sharing it with the masses of useless general brawl discussion threads. This is effectively our forum. Don't look the gift horse in the mouth.

As for the topic... I'm sorry, but this is not the time for this. We need to be unifying toward one final brawl+, not dividing even further. Even if brawl+ is gaining in popularity, it's still relatively small. We can't afford to split like this. It's just a bad idea in general.

 

[trojanpooh]

Sorry, but I just don't really like that idea. The only one that really works, is the idea of a casual brawl+, because it is the same thing as competitive but also accounts for illegal gameplay styles (ffa, items, banned stages, etc.). I don't mean to endorse my thread, thats just my opinion. Maybe after we finish the official Brawl+, someone can change the values for just for fun versions, but the first priority is the plusery.

 

[Slashy]

Many of your projects are simply ideas that Brawl+ will handle

-Casual
-Balance

Have already begun work in development or will begin in development.

The better idea is to split the community based on a certain task, but work towards one single product.

 

[PanzerOceania]

yeah, I meant no offense guys, honestly, but I think the general consensus is pretty clear. This isn't the time, I still think it will help because I see people trying to shoe horn in ideas that while good, are counter productive to the main brawl+ codebase.

I guess I under-anticipated the current support of brawl+. I realize now that it is still young and if we want to see it hit the tourney's then we need to focus 100% on it alone. If anything I just want to say if you have some of these great ideas that have been mentioned, don't try to push them into the competitive brawl. In other words, things that have kind of a side tracked goal, they are neat, write them out and share them, but don't push for them to be in the main codebase, save them and we can do some of these projects later.

Hopefully with that in mind it will lessen everyone from trying to push all their ideas into brawl+ even if some don't belong.


EDIT:

even now I see a lot of continued controversy over things like melee vs. unmelee stuff etc. between influencial users and I just don't see it stopping on it's own. Without an outlet it's going to continue to hinder progress on the main brawl+.

 

[trojanpooh]

Exactly. This way we don't have to deal with people saying its 'last priority' and shrug off ideas just because they add nothing to tourneys.

 

[Williaint]

The reason I put this stuff here is because I see people working towards the same overall goal but disagreeing on a lot of the sames things on a daily basis. Even within the people working on the competitive codebase I see.

Some people just want melee controls with brawl roster and graphics.

Some people want Smash gold like controls

some people want don't want to change that much about it, but just enough to make it competitive.

and then there are those who want to balance characters as much as possible.

I think providing outlets to these different ideas and goals will allow us to have our cake and eat it too. You can have the one idea you want in one of the main codebases, and reserve ideas that are only for the tournament edition for the tournament edition, and keep everything else out.

rather than trying to fit everything into one code, or everyone just having their own private codes, I think it would be beneficial to to as a community decide on roughly 5 main projects similar to the ones I listed and sticky them so that everyone is relatively happy and we have great big projects that accomplish a spectrum of goals.

I completely agree. You'll wind up with new threads that will offer nothing, anyway, so you might as well separate the discussions to a few, if not several, topics with a similar goal in mind; just taking different routes. It's really just a more method of organization than anything.

Now, I see where the argument lies of course: That it's supposed to be just the goal of creating an even, more competitive brawl. So, Why not just create sub-series, or something like that, for naming (ie, Brawl +, for the original, Brawl ++, for some other changes...)? I'm not current with all the naming conventions already developed, or being used, so correct me if I'm wrong!

I hope the 'team' working on making Brawl more like Smash Bros 64 calls their Mod "Brawl -"

 

[PanzerOceania]

The naming convention really isn't important, but yes, this is about organizing the dozens and dozens of threads and consoledating them into several larger, more organized threads with clear parameters and goals outlined so everyone is clear one the goals of each project.

 

[cobaltblue]

You know, looking back at this board isn't your ideas Panzer already being done with the free-for-all code agenda? I have not read the thread but that seems to be the idea of what you were aiming for.

 

[PanzerOceania]

yes, but that is only part of it. There are many people who have competitive ideas but they want it to be like melee, or some people want to do individual character balances to try to make all characters roughly the same tier, while still others want to make brawl competitive but don't want to change any more than they have too.

I think that these are all their own good ideas, but you can't go all out on all ideas for our central brawl plus code.

People want to see these goals met because they believe in them, great, but what we all really want is one competitive standard that we can all use. People don't want to give up the idea they believe in so they will continue to get it in because they don't want to see that idea lost.

If we had several avenues, people could be happy but we could then just keep brawl+ it's own thing and not try to make it too much like any of those other ideas but instead just take only the best things of each that work to make it it's own unique thing, and that is what we could all support as the official brawl plus.

I know that paragraph could have been worded better but hopefully you get the idea.

 

[cobaltblue]

Heh it was worded better than mine and I understand now. I just hope people don't rely too much on the B+BR for a standard because a lot of people on this site seemed to be bisased against different modes of play.

 

[Shadic]

The only one of these I like would be Brawl64. Just to see how much different the game would be without the airdodge, Up-Down throws, and such. And added hitstun, of course.

Not sure if keeping Directional B moves would be ideal... Some good moves from 64 got swapped around later on. And it's just taking away options... Meh.

 

[Williaint]

You know, looking back at this board isn't your ideas Panzer already being done with the free-for-all code agenda? I have not read the thread but that seems to be the idea of what you were aiming for.

After looking through the Index thread a bit more, I see they have a some names already, Like the FFA, which is helpful.

The naming convention really isn't important, but yes, this is about organizing the dozens and dozens of threads and consoledating them into several larger, more organized threads with clear parameters and goals outlined so everyone is clear one the goals of each project.

Right, although it should be organized in a hierarchical system, it shouldn't be treated as such.
The names matter only in a way which is easy to identify which is which. Brawl ++ was just a null-name.

If there is a problem with having too much space dedicated to organizing the threads, perhaps it is possible to compile them at the end of a given period, ie every 2 weeks All Brawl+ with threads with relevant posts are compiled into a master thread, and the cycle continues.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Thing is... It seems that they're straying from their goal, maybe I'm wrong though.
None of them would answer me, but anyways.

Like, I don't get why they've re-lowered the speed of the game, seriously. Brawl Plusery 1.15 was awesome.

Maybe we should have a Q & A thread for Brawl+, seriously.
I didn't get a single question answered regarding the new changes.

 

[Williaint]

I think that's what the FAQ and Support threads are for (Not that they work like that)