Differences Between Dr. Mario and Mario. (Which Italian is better than the other!)

[Spinosaurus]

All tornado does in this game is make Doc's recovery as good as Mario's.

lol

 

[Bedoop]

You can angle it now. I'm sorry but that changes like, everything. No, really, it does.

I assume you're talking about F.L.U.D.D. here.
If you are, Mario could always do that.
Even in Brawl.
Infact, it used to be much more free in Brawl in terms of angling it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Really? Well, curses, there's that dreaded misinformation and poor memory. My apologies.

 

[Fairycancel]

nuff said...

The only thing that video shows is a good player and a bad player :/

 

[Fairycancel]

All tornado does in this game is make Doc's recovery as good as Mario's.

lol

Well, sure. Vanilla Dr. Mario is probably worse than vanilla Mario, with custom moves I think they are a bit closer.

 

[warionumbah2]

The only thing that video shows is a good player and a bad player :/

it shows more but i wouldn't expect you to grasp it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

All it showed me was a Doc that does not know how to reverse rather common methods of Mario pressure with very very easy options. Dair has disjointed hitboxes if it's anything like Melee.

 

[BSP]

I appreciate you trying to defend your point with this big wall of text, and it really looks like you are trying hard. However, i'm not bought on CPU Villager gameplay footage. CPUs are still really dumb in Smash 4 even on Level 9. (it seems yours was on Lv. 1) Also, I think any human player using Villager against Mario would be smart enough not to use the Lloid rocket because when it collides with Mario's cape it can spell disaster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=VrGBtcNRVdk&app=desktop

DK retreats to the ledge, I kill him for it. It he would've gone for the ledge directly, I would've caped him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=zNm3Vdzmi3U&app=desktop

I was SO CLOSE to the perfect whiff punish example, but maybe next time. You see when Toon Link Up B'd and I shot him off the ledge? Had I been any closer, that would've been a KO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LInt9YZRpFQ

Marth missed the edge by an inch. He died for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7Di2gMHZN4

Doesn't go all the way down before recovering, and the tries to retreat to the ledge. Death. Overshoots the ledge and still tries to retreat. Dies again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO6StIx3ZPw

I set up a KO with it, mess up his tornado landings, and he starts airdodging repeatedly because I kept screwing him up.

 

[Folt]

Tested Mario's and Dr. Mario's movement speeds and jump height after some information in the Doc Gameplay thread came to light, and it appears Dr. Mario is now slower than Mario and doesn't have as high a jump (whether from the ground or from the air) as Mario this time around. His air speed is also worse than Mario this time around, but his fall speed is higher.

Notably, worse air speed and worse jump height are both things that lead to worse recovery.

Of course, Doc still comes out on top in regards to kill potential.

 

[Dobbston]

Dr. Mario's foxtrot is way faster than his standard run. Also, it'd be great to get frame data on Dr. Mario's moves.

 

[BSP]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=BeTEleMAOuA

This is the whiff punish potential.

 

[StarLight42]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=BeTEleMAOuA

This is the whiff punish potential.

Just stop trying dude. I've already been relatively pleased with how Dr. Mario plays in SSB4 and have been playing Mario less and less. He'll be higher tier than Mario for sure from what i've seen.

 

[BSP]

That's great. I just hope you don't still think FLUDD is useless.

I was never concerned about mario v doc overall. I'm just proving the people that claim FLUDD is useless wrong.

 

[Folt]

Dr. Mario's foxtrot is way faster than his standard run. Also, it'd be great to get frame data on Dr. Mario's moves.

Mario has him beat there too, actually.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The real gist is, Doc is better at netting KOs onstage but he has lower mobility and poop recovery(but a better shorthop for offense due to lower jump and faster fall speed), but Mario has more mobility and general use. People on websites like Eventhubs(lmao) have ranked Doc at a total of 20 tiers lower which is blatantly incorrect, I think he's more 4-5 slots down from Mario in this.

 

[Folt]

To give my take on this, Mario and Dr. Mario will probably be pretty close to each other tier-wise in this game. That said, I think the way this game works may ultimately favor Mario.

 

[StarLight42]

nuff said...

Nope, not enough said.

That guy plays a piss poor Dr. Mario.

A true player would kick Mario's italian *** back to Sunshine Land with his stupid FLUDD machine

 

[Dobbston]

Not that I have any hate for Mario but Dr. Mario seems way better than standard Mario. Dr. Mario's dair alone is a massive improvement over Mario's. Mario is still fun though and FLUDD isn't all that bad. btw, the tornado is buffed from melee and it seems like it's pretty good in this game.

 

[StarLight42]

Not that I have any hate for Mario but Dr. Mario seems way better than standard Mario. Dr. Mario's dair alone is a massive improvement over Mario's. Mario is still fun though and FLUDD isn't all that bad. btw, the tornado is buffed from melee and it seems like it's pretty good in this game.

IKR

Dr. Mario's dair has gotten me out of a lot of tough situations where Mario's dair would fail. This is one of the big reasons I prefer the Doc over Mario in the actual game.

 

[BSP]

There are situations it is useful. Like, it kills Lucas and Ness dead in Brawl. There's nothing they can do about it either. And this will probably be the same in this game. But those characters are so vulnerable in so many ways anyway that having a move that is totally devoted to killing those two is not really practical.



Every match I have been against someone who was a devoted FLUDD user, it's just such a telegraphed move. You can see it coming from last week - it's a waste of time to charge it up, you could do several combos in the time it takes to set up, and then once it's charged, you know they are going to use it and it has a long end lag. Also every video I have seen with "oh my god awesome FLUDD user owns guy"... it's usually the other person's obvious lack of skill that allows that to happen. There's one going around that shows FLUDD pushing Pikachu's torpedo recovery back and everyone is saying in hushed tones, damn FLUDD is useful... but that person could have easily used the more practical quick attack recovery and avoided that situation altogether.

I love Mario and I wish FLUDD would be useful, but I just don't see how a move with so many downsides could ever be a great move. You're fighting the good fight in trying to see successful Mario but FLUDD is just not a very practical move.

See my recent posts with the videos.

@ StarLight42 - you've obviously got some vendetta against FLUDD or something. I've backed up everything I said with videos but you keep calling the move stupid. Hate it all you want, but do us Mario users a favor and stop calling it useless/stupid, because that's exactly how this mass misinformation starts.

 

[kunimitsu877]

actually while dr.marios weight is the same as marios now he is still alightly stronger which is noticeable in his up b and some of his custom moves i noticed his attacks just cause slightly more damage aside from dr.tornado his down aerial and his pills hes practically no different from mario

 

[warionumbah2]

Nope, not enough said.

That guy plays a piss poor Dr. Mario.

A true player would kick Mario's italian *** back to Sunshine Land with his stupid FLUDD machine

nice opinion you got there.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

I'd say a combination of the new physics, nerfed key moves in Dr. Mario's moveset (F-air can't KO nearly as well as it could in Melee and now requires a sweetspot), and reduced speed make Dr. Mario worse than his parent character. Fast Vitamins help a little with approach and Soaring Tornado/Super Jump help with recovery, but they're not enough to improve him drastically (to be fair, no custom special drastically improves a character). Breeze Sheet is also much better than the Super Sheet, always pick that lol.

The new Up Special is a nice combo finisher but Doc doesn't combo as well as Mario does and the move is very easily punished if it fails to connect.

To be good with Dr. Mario, you can't play him like regular Mario. You have to be... patient. *ba dum tsss*

What I'm saying is that you can't be overly aggressive. The only technique that should be shared with Mario is back air spacing imo. You have to play him mostly in the punish style (f-smash is still really strong, and the hitbox behind him on his down smash is as strong as the one on the front so it's really good at punishing rolls). Also, despite its nerf, f-air still KOs well horizontally, especially on foes knocked off the stage.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I'd say a combination of the new physics, nerfed key moves in Dr. Mario's moveset (F-air can't KO nearly as well as it could in Melee and now requires a sweetspot), and reduced speed make Dr. Mario worse than his parent character. Fast Vitamins help a little with approach and Soaring Tornado/Super Jump help with recovery, but they're not enough to improve him drastically (to be fair, no custom special drastically improves a character). Breeze Sheet is also much better than the Super Sheet, always pick that lol.

The new Up Special is a nice combo finisher but Doc doesn't combo as well as Mario does and the move is very easily punished if it fails to connect.

To be good with Dr. Mario, you can't play him like regular Mario. You have to be... patient. *ba dum tsss*

What I'm saying is that you can't be overly aggressive. The only technique that should be shared with Mario is back air spacing imo. You have to play him mostly in the punish style (f-smash is still really strong, and the hitbox behind him on his down smash is as strong as the one on the front so it's really good at punishing rolls). Also, despite its nerf, f-air still KOs well horizontally, especially on foes knocked off the stage.

Yeah I notice that to... Fair can't even kill close to what it did in melee. It's a great kill move don't get me wrong but it's just not the same. Not to mention no chain grab's hurt him as well since doc had one of the best chain grab games in melee and could chain grab most of the cast. His chain grabbing ability was second only to sheik. Also unlike melee where doc had a great killing and combo potential. In ssb4 his combo game is not that great while his killing potential is his only saving grace. Finally a lack of a finisher for doc is just horrible for him. Down throw to fair is no longer a thing since the opponent can easily air dodge out of it the moment you get the chance to pull it off. I'm not saying doc's bad in this game but he seems to be a shadow of his former(*cough*melee) self.

 

[Kisatamura]

IKR

Dr. Mario's dair has gotten me out of a lot of tough situations where Mario's dair would fail. This is one of the big reasons I prefer the Doc over Mario in the actual game.

Doc's dair is easier for forcing an opponent off-stage, Mario's just pops them up instead. Which I guess is great for Mario, but I prefer to keep momentum with Doc since dair's great for knocking opponents away.

 

[Twewy]

I think each has their ups and downs. I'll agree to the earlier post that Doc and Mario will be 4 or 5 places from each other in the tier list.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah I don't see Doc being a TON worse than Mario, not enough to be bottom or low tier even. They have basically the same neutral, Doc's combo game is less intricate but he doesn't really need them as most of his stuff does more damage and kills earlier than Mario. I think people are SERIOUSLY underrating him, he's not THAT bad.

 

[StarLight42]

Yeah I notice that to... Fair can't even kill close to what it did in melee. It's a great kill move don't get me wrong but it's just not the same. Not to mention no chain grab's hurt him as well since doc had one of the best chain grab games in melee and could chain grab most of the cast. His chain grabbing ability was second only to sheik. Also unlike melee where doc had a great killing and combo potential. In ssb4 his combo game is not that great while his killing potential is his only saving grace. Finally a lack of a finisher for doc is just horrible for him. Down throw to fair is no longer a thing since the opponent can easily air dodge out of it the moment you get the chance to pull it off. I'm not saying doc's bad in this game but he seems to be a shadow of his former(*cough*melee) self.

Ehh.... I don't think his forward aerial has been nerfed that much. It's still a very reliable killmove from what i've played.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Are people still defending Doctor Mario? Face it, he's worse than Mario in almost every regard except for punishing, which he slightly is better at for the better projectile and slightly stronger moves.

 

[Folt]

actually while dr.marios weight is the same as marios now he is still alightly stronger which is noticeable in his up b and some of his custom moves i noticed his attacks just cause slightly more damage aside from dr.tornado his down aerial and his pills hes practically no different from mario

He also has worse jump height and slower movement all around except when it comes to falling speed.

 

[StarLight42]

Are people still defending Doctor Mario? Face it, he's worse than Mario in almost every regard except for punishing, which he slightly is better at for the better projectile and slightly stronger moves.

I don't need to face anything that isn't the truth.

We'll see when that tier list comes out in a year or so, mark my words, Doc will be higher than Mario. This is exactly what people thought when Melee was released, that Doc was worse than Mario, than after a few years Doc's superiority had finally showed. Mario has been absolute trash since Brawl, and it doesn't look like he's much better in this game besides more combo potential.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Are people still defending Doctor Mario? Face it, he's worse than Mario in almost every regard except for punishing, which he slightly is better at for the better projectile and slightly stronger moves.

Better Fastfall. Easier(slightly) to rack up damage. D-Throw is actually BETTER at low %s for positioning them above you(meaning combo breakers that involve Peach or Link bombs are fairly useless so they have to commit to something else), DSmash is infinitely better and kills at least 40% earlier than Mario's(which is an astounding number, and that's just the front since the back hitbox does MORE damage!). Bair is better with Doc not just in terms of damage, but his low jump lets him wall and space with it better since it retains the autocancel and can hit lower shields now. Cape doesn't stall which booty screws his recovery but it allows for Short Hop Cape mixups against grounded projectiles which gives him a more versatile mixup tool in his sheet onstage.

I'm not saying he's better than Mario but the only things he has that are "worse" are recovery and overall combo game. Their neutral (arguably the most important part) is essentially the same, barring minor differences. Hell, depending on how this meta goes, if punish game becomes more critical, my opinion on Mario being better could reverse, but yes, I am still defending Doc because people make him sound like 30x worse than he actually is and it's annoying.

Mario has been absolute trash since Brawl, and it doesn't look like he's much better in this game besides more combo potential.

Wall of text but I feel like I need to address this. All of Mario's options in Brawl were primarily bad because of the game's system itself. IMO Mario is very solid mid in this game because he has a lot of balanced options, good combos, good followup, a really rewarding neutral, and he can do mostly everything by design and do it fairly efficiently.

 

[BSP]

^^overall, Doc is slower too. Worse air speed and running speed, which may have an impact, but we ll see.

Doc Dthrow is better against people that know how to VI.


Better punishing is debate-able, it depends on the situation.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I agree that it's debatable but I'm gonna generalize and say that his raw punishes are objectively stronger in terms of FSmash and Dsmash at the very least.

VI makes Doc's D-Throw both good and bad. It makes it less for combos but it makes it good for position and that's important against combo breaker chars since all of these combo breaks are purely horizontal.

Still, glad you think all of my points are valid(my bad for not bringing up the movement and air speed thing, but overall I think my analysis is close). They're not far from each other, regardless, but they do have to be played vastly different and I think that's why people are ranking Doc so low.

Hell their edgeguarding and OoS are also very different, I think Doc has a better OoS with his Up+B IMO, his edgeguarding is stronger but slightly worse due to no FLUDD, but ledgesteal Bair is really powerful and works for both Marios with Doc's being more effective. Really there's so much to account for but I rank Mario a bit higher only due to general mobility and more well-rounded effectivity.

 

[HeroMystic]

From what I've been reading on this thread, it seems to me that even though the characters are semi-clones, their properties demand they work differently, meaning Doc can't be played like how you would play a Mario. Until Doc develops a solid playstyle (which currently isn't the case because people are still trying to play him like Melee Doc), I wouldn't say yay or nay to Doc being worse than Mario.

I'm surprised people are already asking which is better. Actually no I'm not surprised this is smashboards.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

From what I've been reading on this thread, it seems to me that even though the characters are semi-clones, their properties demand they work differently, meaning Doc can't be played like how you would play a Mario. Until Doc develops a solid playstyle (which currently isn't the case because people are still trying to play him like Melee Doc), I wouldn't say yay or nay to Doc being worse than Mario.

I'm surprised people are already asking which is better. Actually no I'm not surprised this is smashboards.

You're probably right. We'll just have to see how well the meta develops right now.

 

[Kisatamura]

From what I've been reading on this thread, it seems to me that even though the characters are semi-clones, their properties demand they work differently, meaning Doc can't be played like how you would play a Mario. Until Doc develops a solid playstyle (which currently isn't the case because people are still trying to play him like Melee Doc), I wouldn't say yay or nay to Doc being worse than Mario.

I'm surprised people are already asking which is better. Actually no I'm not surprised this is smashboards.

This. Besides the removal of L-canceling, Doc has some changed properties on his moves from Melee. While he feels mostly the same, there are some new tricks with him and stuff he can't do anymore.

 

[Drexel]

I honestly think both of them have their ups and downs. It is known that Mario is quicker that the Doc, but Doc has more KO and KB power, and I see as retaining those nice quick aerials. However, Mario has a large advantage over the Doc in terms of edgeguarding with the FLUDD, which I think was awesome to give Mario back in Brawl. However, as a fan of combos, and that tornado which I still love, even though it is a bit weaker, Dr. Mario I think has a better combo/pressure game than Mario. He also has some mindgames you play with the opponent by using the Dair or the tornado on a shorthop which Mario does not have that option because of FLUDD. Also, Dr. Mario's recovery is slightly better than Mario's because of the tornado as you not only gain more lateral distance but vertical distance too. Mario gets a small extra hop from his cape which compared to the tornado is small indeed. Their up specials are different as well, and I like them both. Mario's gives some rapid damage but I have gotten some hilarious KO's with the Doc's, it's all on how the fighter feels to you but to me, the fact they changed that was a plus as it gives Dr. Mario more KO possibilities.

Now with that said, we all are probably still experimenting with the characters' physics and how to combo, but Dr. Mario retains a few things from his good 'ol Melee days like them Down throw + Up Tilt 2 times + Aerial, combos, etc. But let me tell you, Mario was the character I played with most on the demo but Dr. Mario is the character I have played with most on the actual game and I like them both, but because of my love for the combo game, Dr. Mario won me over and clicked with me almost instantly. But like I said, this is just one person's opinion, and if you disagree, so be it, but man, Dr. Mario is still rocking it for me!

 

[Nat Goméz]

FLUDD is not uselles, it's one of the better edge-guarding tools and with cape, if used right, it can be deadly, also with Mario if you fail a up b and get into freefall your safest option is being punished because if you go to the edge you're in risk of being FLUUD'ed and killed just fot that... but i'm surprised how much you @ BSP manage to be so patient to illustrate its usefulness. I do get your frustration from people thinking it's useless for Brawl when Brawl was one of the most unbalanced games ever and when this games mechanics and physics suits FLUUD better.

For Doctor Mario i think his Mario with equipment, slower but stronger. Mario being faster but weaker. I do think Mario's combo game is better for the simple fact that being faster makes combo'ing easier. For Doc. having the ability to kill earlier makes him to don't have the need of combo to the percents Mario need to KO anyone.

I think they'll be really close together tier list wise.

 

[1FC0]

You guys are literally holding onto straws to defend Mario. Just admit it, FLUDD sucks, and it kills Mario's metagame. Dr. Mario will continue to reign superior over Mario until FLUDD is rid of.

Even if Mario somehow becomes better than the Doc in this game for no reason, i'll still play the Doc. I prefer Mario's Smash 64/Melee moveset, it's more fun than useless FLUDD.

So you are just going to shrug off my reasoning with a facepalm? Real mature there, how about next time, you actually counter my argument instead trying to make me look like an idiot. Knockback and damage are better than just...."pushback". Plus, one of the Doc's custom moves gives Dr. Mario a very knockback oriented Dr. Tornado, so the pushback is made up for.

Hihi you said that they literally hold on to straws to defend Mario. Silly you.