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Diddy Kong Whining/Defense Thread
- Thread starter TheReflexWonder
- Start date
leekslap
Smash Ace
This isn't another hate thread. I've been confused about all the Diddy hate since it began. Maybe it's because trying to convince me Diddy is better than Meta Knight is impossible or maybe I learned the matchup, but I don't think Diddy is broken. But I don't trust myself, so I want to know the logical explanation of why Diddy is too good. Does he not have weaknesses? Is it just that he has options for every situation? Or is it that all the scrubs from Brawl and Smash 4 are being scrubs? To be honest, I'd rather ban Sheik. Even if I play at my max, one hit and I'm dead.
Yoshi Kirishima
Smash Lord
I don't think Diddy is OP. He may be the best character in the game right now, but it's always possible a few months later he won't be perceived as the best or top 3 anymore.
I do think there is a real design problem with Diddy though; a lack of interesting weaknesses. This problem was addressed with characters in the last patch; all of them got touched except for Diddy, for whatever reason. Rosalina is the prime example here. Long lasting hitboxes, really strong smashes, really high priority attacks with decent speed, huge hitboxes. She had a puppet/support in Luma, and even without the puppet she was still really good. Take her down air for example. Not only does it spike and have long range with her legs, it also has a LASTING disjointed hitbox that extends below her... really? That's waaay too many things in one move. Furthermore, grabs basically weren't an option vs Rosalina because of Luma, severely limiting the amount of options you have to stop her. Because her smashes had such low cooldown, and her moves were so good at zoning out, she had way too many strengths and no real weaknesses. I could really go on and on about why Rosalina had a bad design.
Right now, I think the same thing applies to Diddy. Yes, like Rosalina, his recovery isn't that good, maybe average at best since it's not that difficult to gimp him even though it goes far. But what are really his weaknesses? He's slightly light like Rosalina, OK. But that's not very interesting and isn't that significant. The only thing I really feel is an interesting weakness is that his air speed is pretty bad. He has solid, well rounded aerials giving him a very flexible kit but his air manueverability is not that high, meaning if he tries to fight in the air a lot (or chase after you like after a throw) you can weave in and out and punish Diddy (think Jigglypuff or Wario). That discourages him from fighting in the air a lot or jumping too much, and makes him approach more by ground or with his Side B.
The only way I can see that we can keep Diddy in check is if people find out good ways to stop his ground approaches. Maybe a few months later we'll all laugh at how we thought Diddy was so good. But for now, these are my current thoughts. His run speed on the ground is pretty fast, his standing grab has decent range and his dash grab doesn't have that much lag and it's pretty fast. If he gets a grab, he does so much damage since his moves just naturally do a lot. Since he's fast on the ground, he can easily rush you down if you don't keep him at bay.
This is not to even mention that his peanut gun is a pretty good projectile, and that his banana game is still really good since one banana is just so useful. I understand the idea of making traps with bananas and then rushing the opponent down and grabbing them or side B or attacking them, but I feel like his grab/punish game is too strong right now. When people get grabbed they can take like 60-80% before they hit the ground again, and I'm talking about the best players, like Zero vs Fow and such. Again of course, it's possible we'll find better ways to DI out of these or something.
Either his grabs should be harder to follow up on, or his aerials should do less damage, or be slower, or have lower range, or something. Or something else nerfed to make it harder for him to get that grab.
I do think there is a real design problem with Diddy though; a lack of interesting weaknesses. This problem was addressed with characters in the last patch; all of them got touched except for Diddy, for whatever reason. Rosalina is the prime example here. Long lasting hitboxes, really strong smashes, really high priority attacks with decent speed, huge hitboxes. She had a puppet/support in Luma, and even without the puppet she was still really good. Take her down air for example. Not only does it spike and have long range with her legs, it also has a LASTING disjointed hitbox that extends below her... really? That's waaay too many things in one move. Furthermore, grabs basically weren't an option vs Rosalina because of Luma, severely limiting the amount of options you have to stop her. Because her smashes had such low cooldown, and her moves were so good at zoning out, she had way too many strengths and no real weaknesses. I could really go on and on about why Rosalina had a bad design.
Right now, I think the same thing applies to Diddy. Yes, like Rosalina, his recovery isn't that good, maybe average at best since it's not that difficult to gimp him even though it goes far. But what are really his weaknesses? He's slightly light like Rosalina, OK. But that's not very interesting and isn't that significant. The only thing I really feel is an interesting weakness is that his air speed is pretty bad. He has solid, well rounded aerials giving him a very flexible kit but his air manueverability is not that high, meaning if he tries to fight in the air a lot (or chase after you like after a throw) you can weave in and out and punish Diddy (think Jigglypuff or Wario). That discourages him from fighting in the air a lot or jumping too much, and makes him approach more by ground or with his Side B.
The only way I can see that we can keep Diddy in check is if people find out good ways to stop his ground approaches. Maybe a few months later we'll all laugh at how we thought Diddy was so good. But for now, these are my current thoughts. His run speed on the ground is pretty fast, his standing grab has decent range and his dash grab doesn't have that much lag and it's pretty fast. If he gets a grab, he does so much damage since his moves just naturally do a lot. Since he's fast on the ground, he can easily rush you down if you don't keep him at bay.
This is not to even mention that his peanut gun is a pretty good projectile, and that his banana game is still really good since one banana is just so useful. I understand the idea of making traps with bananas and then rushing the opponent down and grabbing them or side B or attacking them, but I feel like his grab/punish game is too strong right now. When people get grabbed they can take like 60-80% before they hit the ground again, and I'm talking about the best players, like Zero vs Fow and such. Again of course, it's possible we'll find better ways to DI out of these or something.
Either his grabs should be harder to follow up on, or his aerials should do less damage, or be slower, or have lower range, or something. Or something else nerfed to make it harder for him to get that grab.
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Jakester897
Smash Rookie
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You seem to be misunderstanding the concept of a soft ban. Some fans raging about Diddy is nothing new, and that's not what soft banning is about. A soft ban is an agreement among top players not to use a character or tactic, and it doesn't actually prevent the character from being used. If top professionals, with careful deliberation, believe that Diddy limits the game and that the game would be better without him, then he could be soft banned. Diddy is in a very similar situation to the one that Old Sagat was in, albeit in a much different game.
Of course right now, a soft ban is not warranted. However, I think that if the metagame develops in a way where Diddy Kong dictates too much, we could potentially see one. I am of the type to usually be against any and all bans, so the circumstances would have to be pretty major for me to agree with one, and I hope the same goes for the people who could carry out such a thing.
leekslap
Smash Ace
What about bad matchups? I wouldn't know because I've had this game for about two weeks so I'm still indecisive when it comes to mains.
Pogoshark
Diddy-Strong
I really wish people would stop complaining about Diddy, hes not Metaknight, hes not unbeatable, if people learn to DI they would get out of his dthrow>uair, and his recovery is easily gimpable.
The game has been out for like 2 months, stop whining and stop trying to remove something you cant understand because the 'simple' option is to cry wolf like everyone else.
Learn the match up, FFS.
The game has been out for like 2 months, stop whining and stop trying to remove something you cant understand because the 'simple' option is to cry wolf like everyone else.
Learn the match up, FFS.
Yoshi Kirishima
Smash Lord
From hanging around a lot in pro's streams, no one seems to think there is a counter to Diddy. Which is a really bad thing because if there are no counters to a character (more than 55:45) then that sort of objectively makes him the best character (or tied for best). The idea is that as long as you have a few weak matchups, there will be counterpicks. And following along that line, those counterpicks will have counters as well. But if there are no weak matchups at all, then that balancing mechanic is completely ignored, making the rest of the cast automatically bad, which is really unfortunate. The fact that you could even start to consider using the words "objectively the best" is really scary (given that we assume community-aggregated matchup charts are "facts")
Anyway my worries aside, yea I don't think there's any real counters to Diddy right now, he's just a really solid character. I think Jigglypuff has potential against a Diddy, though it will take time before we get good enough Jigglypuffs that can crouch/avoid grabs and punish with Rest. Also Jigglypuff's air maneuverability is way higher than Diddy's so fighting in the air should not be a problem at all (can also punish side B with Rest, but again would take a lot of practice).
Again this can all change especially since there are just so many different characters that are all viable this time around, so we have a lot of people split up over a much larger cast and it will take a while for each character to really up their game. It might take several months, but hopefully not.
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Chez G.
Yay...
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Well, Diddy is technically better than Meta Knight, if not the Meta Knight of Smash 4. Have you seen this video?
What gets me is that some of the top players seem to think so.
I am very fresh to Smash/Smash 4 (long time follower, but short time player), but have a long history in other competitive games. Its not unusual for the best to moan about the new meta kings if it counters/is not what they play. I played WoW PVP competitively for a long time, and the beginning of every expansion was some easy faceroll cleave that did well, as the seasons rolled on, things became more complex, strategies got deeper.
I was going to say that because we can draw on smash's history that players have a better base knowledge, but in reality its still a new game, and I am sure as the game develops beyond a few months old, top players work together for tournaments and we see the months roll on, the meta will develop.
I picked up Marth and Falcon for most of the time (on 3DS) and just got the Wii U and struggled a bit online with Marth, I picked up DK just to have a fiddle and found him very easy to play. Easy is an oversimplification but maybe lets say hes more intuitive in how to win with him. I've experienced that before and just really reminds me of these early game situations, often its too easy to panic about the first "OP" - give players a chance to breed some creativity into the meta before we need to cry wolf.
I must hasten to add if it becomes a "Be DK or be destined to lose to X top players playing him" at tournaments - then we would have a case for sure.
I am very fresh to Smash/Smash 4 (long time follower, but short time player), but have a long history in other competitive games. Its not unusual for the best to moan about the new meta kings if it counters/is not what they play. I played WoW PVP competitively for a long time, and the beginning of every expansion was some easy faceroll cleave that did well, as the seasons rolled on, things became more complex, strategies got deeper.
I was going to say that because we can draw on smash's history that players have a better base knowledge, but in reality its still a new game, and I am sure as the game develops beyond a few months old, top players work together for tournaments and we see the months roll on, the meta will develop.
I picked up Marth and Falcon for most of the time (on 3DS) and just got the Wii U and struggled a bit online with Marth, I picked up DK just to have a fiddle and found him very easy to play. Easy is an oversimplification but maybe lets say hes more intuitive in how to win with him. I've experienced that before and just really reminds me of these early game situations, often its too easy to panic about the first "OP" - give players a chance to breed some creativity into the meta before we need to cry wolf.
I must hasten to add if it becomes a "Be DK or be destined to lose to X top players playing him" at tournaments - then we would have a case for sure.
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First off I do think its way to early to ban anything.
Like I mention in another thread, early days of games, even when there is some level of prior knowledge from similar game/game systems (I.E Brawl, PM, Melee), new expansions/versions still need time to map out, and the early power are often just the most straight forward and "obvious" to play. As the game develops, more complex strategies and meta-gaming appear.
This is all moot if DK does seem to be say a MK brawl level of power (never played Brawl, but just what I hear).
With all that said, I am still thinking that Nintendo is going to monitor the likes of Apex and Evo, or other major events, since they've given over some sponsorship, and because the game can be updated like any other online based game, it can be tweaked.
We live in a world of competitive gaming now that things should not be needed to be banned - casual users wouldn't overly notice minor drops in power level of characters, and that minor drop is often all that is needed for the best players to not be able to exploit OP's as much.
Like I mention in another thread, early days of games, even when there is some level of prior knowledge from similar game/game systems (I.E Brawl, PM, Melee), new expansions/versions still need time to map out, and the early power are often just the most straight forward and "obvious" to play. As the game develops, more complex strategies and meta-gaming appear.
This is all moot if DK does seem to be say a MK brawl level of power (never played Brawl, but just what I hear).
With all that said, I am still thinking that Nintendo is going to monitor the likes of Apex and Evo, or other major events, since they've given over some sponsorship, and because the game can be updated like any other online based game, it can be tweaked.
We live in a world of competitive gaming now that things should not be needed to be banned - casual users wouldn't overly notice minor drops in power level of characters, and that minor drop is often all that is needed for the best players to not be able to exploit OP's as much.
Daisy101
Smash Journeyman
They disable Both Dislike/Like and Comments. Game just came out a month half on Wii-U.
Garlic Wonder
Smash Apprentice
Diddy is pretty swift and was a great character in Brawl and is ranked B on the tier list, and is used by the legendary MEW2KING, so yeah, he is good.
KirbyandSonicrock14
Smash Ace
Why does M2K going after the broken characters? I'm not saying he is. I remember why he said he went to MK in Brawl.
Garlic Wonder
Smash Apprentice
Because he likes combos and Meta Knight is swift like his fav from Melee Fox and can perform combos.
Roll-Spamming-Peasant
Smash Apprentice
Wait, Marth wasn't his main?
Garlic Wonder
Smash Apprentice
Yeah, it was Fox. Fox is about 90% of the Melee Peoples's Main.
Roll-Spamming-Peasant
Smash Apprentice
Hmm, guess I don't look for his fox matches often then.
Yoshi Kirishima
Smash Lord
His answer on stream was that playing good characters is fun because he wants to win. He doesn't play Falcon in Melee because he's not good enough despite being the most fun in a non-winning sense.
KirbyandSonicrock14
Smash Ace
Kind of mess up when he use to be a guy that could win without abusing broken ****. I find it funny he complain no one cheer for him in brawl. I can't wait for him to say that again. He acts similar to this one DOA player I know.
Yoshi Kirishima
Smash Lord
I'm really disappointed that he loves Palutena, my favorite character, but refuses to play her because she's not "good enough". Especially in such an amazingly balanced game, there's no excuse for picking top tiers anymore; everyone's viable.
KirbyandSonicrock14
Smash Ace
Hmm...I won't say that..since there are so really bad characters though. I feel characters like Little Mac are being overlooked heavily. Back to M2k though. My thing is this my friends. If he wants to be cheer then play who you like, not play to win since that mindset has been hit or miss for him. M2k has won more in melee than he has in brawl. When you play to win you get burn heavily or not as bad. This a big no no in fighting games in general.
leekslap
Smash Ace
Dr. Mario from this game is my favorite character, but he sucks. You might not think it's that big of an issue, but his recovery is what makes him so awful and inferior to the other Mario Bros who are clearly top tier. I have a replay literally titled "Why Dr Mario sux" that shows me playing at my max with hard reads and awesome combos only to be gimped twice by a Sheik and losing badly. ZeRo says his favorite character is Shulk, but he doesn't play him in tourney because he's not good with him and Shulk isn't very good. Plus, this isn't the first time M2K has competitively ignored a character because of their viability. Mew - two - king as in Mewtwo?
Yoshi Kirishima
Smash Lord
I don't think Dr Mario is that good either, but there are top players like Fow who think he's mid tier. So for now I can only conclude that no character is inviable, maybe difficult or questionable but not inviable.
I remember when Brawl came out, and the bottom and some of the low tier characters were very obviously terrible and inviable from the first couple weeks. However it's been almost 4 months with Smash 4 and pros still have side wide opinions or difficulties in deciding the worst ~5 characters, and even characters who aren't thought of very highly have unique strengths that give them a fighting chance. Whereas in Brawl, ****ty characters lacked meaningful unique strengths and thus were literally terrible.
That sucks about Zero, Ally's showed off what Shulk can do. It would be great to see him play his favorite character, not someone that just lets him win...
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PSIBoy
Smash Lord
Despite that, he is still far from Brawl Meta Knight. He is still quite beatable: just treat him as soft Ice Climbers, gimp his recovery, and use his bananas against him. But he currently seems like the best character in the game: hope he doesn't dominate the meta-game too much.
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
I agree he is OP, but hopefully he will get a tweak to his uair and maybe a banana change. Thats all I need.
Raijinken
Smash Master
While I agree that some further patching would be nice, he's still manageable. Both of his projectiles are catchable and reflectable, and his recovery is pretty predictable. He's manageable, if very strong.
Try Fox or Falco for easy reflectors, or Pit for a superior offstage game. Looking at your mains (Duck Hunt and Pac Man), it's no wonder you have issues with him, as neither of them are well-equipped to handle his approach or defensive options.
Try Fox or Falco for easy reflectors, or Pit for a superior offstage game. Looking at your mains (Duck Hunt and Pac Man), it's no wonder you have issues with him, as neither of them are well-equipped to handle his approach or defensive options.
Raijinken
Smash Master
You don't necessarily have to change mains outright. But it is always good to have a secondary that can handle problematic characters. Since both of your mains are pretty defensively oriented, try learning someone with a stronger aggressive game. As mentioned before, Fox has the reflector, and also has lasers and a pretty strong aggressive game. Captain Falcon, Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus also have strong aggressive games with varying levels of defense or recovery option.
Just try being more open and adaptive in your play, regardless of who you're using. If he keeps hitting you with bananas, focus on dodging (or catching, though that can be hard online with lag) the bananas to avoid the rest of his combo. If he's running up and grabbing, jump out of his way and punish the endlag on his grab. And so on. Plus, if he DOES land his grab, try holding different directions to DI out. There is still some room for human error in his followup, so if you're unpredictable in the direction you escape to, you increase the chances that he'll miss.
I don't play Duck Hunt that often, but for some Pac-Man specific advice, try keeping your fire hydrant between you as a wall. It'll block the bananas, and you can also smash attack it (or otherwise break its damage threshold) to launch it at him. The apple, cherry, and pudding can also make decent tools for interrupting his rocketbarrel without harm to yourself. And of course, the Key will fly straight through pretty much any projectile, and hits rather hard. It's a tough matchup for PacMan, but if you teach yourself some tricks for handling Diddy, it'll take an opponent who is notably more adaptable (which a lot of online players aren't) to make up for your matchup knowledge.
Again, thanks for the advice. Since I'm already trying out Pit, I should be able to handle it; and I've always wanted to improve my Pac-Man game and this should quite a bit.
Darklink401
Smash Master
Villager counters Diddy pretty hard. Pocket banana, refresh every 15-20 seconds by pulling it out and pocketing it back.
Villager's keepaway game can space Diddy out of grab chances, and his nair and other lingering aerials can gimp Diddy EASY. NAKAT played Zee in a stream and suffered this.
Diddy is overrated IMO.
People are just scared right now.
Villager's keepaway game can space Diddy out of grab chances, and his nair and other lingering aerials can gimp Diddy EASY. NAKAT played Zee in a stream and suffered this.
Diddy is overrated IMO.
People are just scared right now.
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Mario & Sonic Guy
Old rivalries live on!
Rosalina was also considered to be overpowered herself, but she still had her obvious weaknesses, even before Smash 3DS's 1.0.4 update.
Against Rosalina, Diddy would have to throw his banana peels at a range that's too close for Rosalina to act, since if his banana peels are too far away, Rosalina can use Gravitational Pull to make them her own. Simply put, Rosalina can turn one of Diddy Kong's best approach options into a liability, forcing him to rethink his battle strategy.
Against Rosalina, Diddy would have to throw his banana peels at a range that's too close for Rosalina to act, since if his banana peels are too far away, Rosalina can use Gravitational Pull to make them her own. Simply put, Rosalina can turn one of Diddy Kong's best approach options into a liability, forcing him to rethink his battle strategy.
Lil Puddin
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He is a small character with unreasonably large and delay-free aerials; accompanied by a easy catching tool and flying face hump grab. His ground game is his weakest link, but it's way better than half the cast so that's not too reassuring game balance wise.
He is not Brawl MK, but... He is fair enough to remain unbanned at least. His only bad matchups by a small amount are Rosalina and Villager. AKA: already annoying and strong characters that plenty of characters have problems with.
I can beat him with any of my chatacters, but he is such a chore to fight. Especially online. I'd rather just not fight him.
He is not Brawl MK, but... He is fair enough to remain unbanned at least. His only bad matchups by a small amount are Rosalina and Villager. AKA: already annoying and strong characters that plenty of characters have problems with.
I can beat him with any of my chatacters, but he is such a chore to fight. Especially online. I'd rather just not fight him.
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Darklink401
Smash Master
I feel that people just need to figure out how to fight him.
Constant mobility is key.
AlexAnthonyD
Smash Apprentice
Hes a quick one but he my Greninja does not fear Diddy.
Lil Puddin
just a lil extra
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Yeah but you also can't make one mistake since a sideB is an easy ranged punishment option that hurts and can kill. Similar to Captain Falcon's down/sideB or Dorf's downB. Tho a stopped-short Fsmash works too.
I play WFT, Palutena, Peach, and Zelda. Diddy is so annoying to fight but not impossible or difficult to beat as them. Diddy is almost as annoying to fight as 3.2 PM Zelda... Which is saying a lot. I'd rather just SD and play someone else if it's FG and I keep getting Diddys. People don't use him that much in FG, thankfully.
Offline he is more manageable since delay seems to help everyone who DOESN'T rely on laggy sweetspots. RIP Zelda.
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Player-1
Smash Legend
I play both chars and Villager definitely doesn't beat Diddy.
Diddy is overrated, I think he's 3rd at best right now. IMO definitely loses to Sonic and Megaman. Mario, Fox, and pikachu do well too, not sure if even or their advantage. Rosalina and Sheik are both pretty even I feel like too.
Darklink401
Smash Master
How can he not beat Diddy?
He takes away the banana, and can space Diddy out O.o whats Diddy got over him?