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Diddy in 3.5 (Diddy Ain't Dead)

SpiderMad

Smash Master
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May 6, 2012
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Even chars like Marth were never easy, it's gonna be real tough
 
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Searing_Sorrow

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Joking aside, any competitive diddy mains found any use for this 3.5 character. Literally everything from air to ground has been toned down so much to where there is not an option to use worth the risk. Up throw was nerfed, and they DECREASED not increased the knockback growth to where it doesnt kill, plus the massive end lag means less combos. One banana is ok, but even shine banana isnt worth a fair that doesnt kill till 150+ percent, and massive lag on side b, up b and up smash. Diddy is now a glass cannon character without the knockback or the pressure to back it up.Currently seems like overkill, oh well still got olimar and secondaries will become mains
 

SpiderMad

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No, some asshole needs to make a guide on all our throw follows ups and stuff
 

Searing_Sorrow

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No, some ******* needs to make a guide on all our throw follows ups and stuff
What was the point of making a guide for throws, only player-1 ever attempted to use half the potential up throw had after list was made, most players just did dair or fair dropping an extra 20-50% dependent on layout.

In 3.5 some characters come out of up throw lag faster than diddy, so it is only good vs characters that really really hate being above you like dk samus and Zelda. He falls in the person designing him doesn't actually play him category, so certain things like up throw growth and fair knock back being reduced didn't even make it into patch notes due to lack of testing. Shame, cause overall work put into this patch is the best yet with more fundamental melee play and less b.s.Unfortunately this iteration of diddy is worse than 2.6 diddy (who many said was underwhelming). The amount of times asked to win neutral with the current neutered kit is just unrealistic in a competitive environment of equally skilled players. You have a better chance using brawl falcon lol.
 
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Soft Serve

softie
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I've been still enjoying him once I got over the nerf salt
The way I played him still works really well, I do just a lot of item play and grab tech chasing. You'll have to play smarter, but all of my space control and set up stuff still works. Constant movement and z-droping/wavelanding over the banana for mix-ups and being unpredictable is probably a lot more important. Idk, I'll try to get some money matches this week to upload.

The Fair nerf is killing me though. I seriously cant kill.
Like I wasn't killing wario off of a dthrow>Fair from the ledge at 140.
He doesn't have trouble getting in or wracking up %, and still has great control, but my god do you have to catch them with bad DI or not CCing our smashes. Half of my kills are from d-smash, catching them with bad DI, because they can just hold down and shield and get out of the other smashes at any time.
The amount of times asked to win neutral with the current neutered kit is just unrealistic in a competitive environment of equal skilled players.
This x 100000

Like, my games so far have been like this:
get a grab/trip/dair at low%, grab/throw for tech chase, using the banana the best I can.
Once they get past 30 or so, or I catch them in the air or not CCing, I can get nair>decent combo, then they are at like 90% and nothing links anymore but dair and weak nair and I cant kill
Reset any combo/positioning I had, camp and wrack up% until stray moves kill, or go for hard read/tech chase smashes, hope they die before 150.
If his edge guarding was better vs more of the cast it wouldn't be so much of a problem, but Fair getting nerfed hurts his edge guarding game and punishing recovery game, and reduced up-b charge time makes it harder to use up-b for that purpose.
Idk, I think he is good but once again has to win so many situations to take a stock, compared to say, Falco or another combo monster who only needs to win one or two situations to take a stock.
 

Searing_Sorrow

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I may be able to post some videos in the future to leave some ideas out there for combos, but like you, down smash is 60% of my kills as well. (it being the only reliable finisher.)

I am cringing at the idea of playing against Fatality or Reflex with this neutered excuse of a character slot. Up b and side b kick both lost priority and disjoint, and massive lag means air control got cut in half leaving only platform cancels, sh b reverse peanut cancels and agt.
 
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EddyBearr

Smash Lord
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Jun 14, 2013
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Minneapolis, Minnesota
I played a Diddy that intentionally abstained from his worst jank, and still felt Diddy was solid. Now, however, Diddy both lost his jank and is a pretty bad character to begin with. Alongside this, he dies easily and is super easy to combo.

P:M really overdid it here. :(
 

DeFish

Smash Apprentice
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Dec 10, 2013
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Oof, those Diddy nerfs hurt. My overall thoughts so far:

  • I'm surprised by how little I'm bothered by the loss of the second banana, I feel like Diddy's movement and the peanuts still make his neutral game really solid.
  • I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my throws, through. Up-throw seems like it can combo or chain into itself at lower percents on most people, but I'm still having issues with people DIing towards the ground and punishing me while I'm still in the animation. Down throw seems...disappointing, I'm not really sure what to do with it anymore. Overall, I'm still struggling with making optimal use of my throws, it seems like the best I can do is throw them towards the edge and try to make something out of the positional advantage.
  • Up-smash is probably my most hated nerf, as I relied very heavily on this to combo previously. I've started to work in more u-tilts, since it's so easy for people to DI out of up-smash, but I'm still not terribly happy about that. I've had some success with using up-smash as an anti-air, but that's mostly just me trying to find a use for it right now. I feel like, in most cases, I'd still be better off with an up-tilt.
  • Side-b chop seems like they ported it straight out of Smash 4, I can't seem to get any follow ups past 80% or so. Given the changes to down throw, it feels like our two really good methods of setting up fairs are much less friendly, and I've found myself killing with it less overall. I'm still getting used to the extra lag at the end of it, which can make using it with up-b a little awkward sometimes. This is mostly just a timing issue on my part, but still annoying.
  • Up-b nerfs were expected and justified, although I'm sad about how much harder it is to land the meteor.
  • Dash attack change was something else that I have mixed opinions on. While the pop-up isn't terrible for comboing, the fact that you can pop someone up and then roll right off of the platform you're on, allowing them to safely get back down, is maddening. If the pop-up stays, I'd like to see the roll-off go, because as it is it's more of a liability than a useful tool.
Overall, I'm disappointed that the made such sweeping changes to Diddy. He saw his recovery, neutral game, combo game, kill setups, and kill moves nerfed, and nerfing that many aspects of a character at once can be very dangerous. Matchups that were difficult before (Marth and Sheik come to mind) are a ton more difficult now that Diddy's offensive options aren't as strong, and fast-fallers in general are very difficult to combo before 50%.

I think that if up-smash and d-throw were changed back to 3.02, Diddy would be great. As it is though, I'm not really sure where I'd rank Diddy among the cast. Bananas are a very unique mechanic, and my gut says that they should ensure Diddy stays, at worst, in upper-mid tier, but I'm concerned that a lack of consistency in gameplay will keep Diddy from being the king he was born to be.
 

Soft Serve

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I think he is still high tier
he has too many tools to win neutral to be bad imo.
he needs to set up kills differently.
 

SpiderMad

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Roll off DA is my bro, we just gotta figure out how to make it amazing again. Same with throws like you said. All the near guaranteed percent stuff for each general weight/falling speed class; that's what Debug Menu is for. Have you seen the crazy stuff Kadanos made? http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/page-17#post-16635855
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OapcVo0-Oys#t=88
He/We would never get that specific, given PM changes like a mofo, but general estimations.

And probably make a list of our worst MUs lol

I also plan to make a moderate length video of me just going over random Diddy stuff, not so much related to the 3.5 changes.

That global WD change sure made this Monkey extra greased

I've been trying to catch up on all the matches Joe did in this tourney https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY2czHnAWOA#t=653

Up-smash plz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY2czHnAWOA#t=370

That's a powerful banana/up-throw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY2czHnAWOA#t=753
 
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Searing_Sorrow

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Spending time in the lab, I think there might be a trap percent on certain characters between up throw and down throw, that will lead to devastating combos, (by my definition 50% or higher) but would require telling opponent what d.I to do and play testing percents, which I can't do till after break.

I like the dash attack better for combos, but diddy's kills still feel too reliant on down smash. Will work on perfecting combos before posting vids, but recalculating percents for new nerfed up throw is not my idea of fun, and the last one was hard enough with correct kb kbg data given. With the patch note being wrong on correct knock back growth, no using math for other characters, so starting on DDD and through the cast.
 
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Sk1lledFu

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
12
Location
Iowa City
After switching mains twice, rage quitting multiple times, and giving up on PM for a day, I have come to the conclusion that Diddy is still pretty great. After playing DLA recently in tourney and going to another 2 myself only playing Diddy I feel like he can still rock with the rest of the top tiers. Playing him super campy and trippy just doesn't work as well. Trading in the neutral game and playing smarter is still incredibly rewarding. I draw a lot of inspiration from fox play. Ride the Diddy Nair-plane and hit those banana spikes.

  • Banana shine spikes are HILARIOUS when they happen. I have 10-20+ kills now where people let the banana hit them off stage wthin recovery range thinking it will reset their jumps and they get smacked away and die. (Looking at you Marth/Roy mains)
  • If you can SHFFL fast enough NAIR/Up-Tilt has stupid combos on most mid/heavy weight characters, and will even kill floaties.
  • Banana forward/down GT --> downsmash is new bread and butter
  • Downsmash is the best option in every situation
  • Seriously use downsmash
  • Peanut + AGT banana --> waveland --> downsmash
  • B-turn pull your bananas to edge guard off stage vertical recoveries
  • Nair --> jump --> Dair --> fastfall --> Nair or if they hit the ground Upsmash = pillars for days
  • Peanuts are good at stopping Fox/Falco/Falcon recoveries because they go out horizontally further and faster. Shoot one out to read that horizontal recovery and force a foxfire where you can edgeguard smarter/safer
  • z-drop bananas are awesome. If you catch someone jumping out of shield they get spiked still and it takes their jump.
  • new wave-dash means wavedash to pickup bananas on platforms above you is even faster. Battlefield is one of my favorite stages
  • GT/AGT banana at shield and run up for a grab. Most players have PTSD from 3.02 so there are free grabs all around. If the banana hits and they tech the fall you can almost always get a free grab since most players immediately shield in fear of our 3.02 f-smash that we no longer have. abuse it
Hope this is useful. Some of it is carry over from 3.02 but some of it I have only noticed recently after having so many weapons taken away. Will post more after a couple more tournies
 
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SpiderMad

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Hope this is useful. Some of it is carry over from 3.02 but some of it I have only noticed recently after having so many weapons taken away. Will post more after a couple more tournies
Nothing but the 2nd banana and DA catch was taken away (and Fair being able to DJ out of in a SH, but can still AC); as my gif demonstrates. You just got your weapons/tools nerfed.
If they take Peanut gun AD away though, that's a super tragedy
 
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Sk1lledFu

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Nothing but the 2nd banana and DA catch was taken away; as my gif demonstrates. You just got your weapons/tools nerfed.
If they take Peanut gun AD away though, that's a super tragedy
RIP in pepperonis 2nd banana. You were my favorite. Peanut Gun shenanigans are the new fun way to annoy people with now. WD --> bturn Peanut Guns is too fun now
 

SpiderMad

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RIP in pepperonis 2nd banana. You were my favorite. Peanut Gun shenanigans are the new fun way to annoy people with now. WD --> bturn Peanut Guns is too fun now
Yeah, I was like great I'll be able to delve deeper into Peanut gun use without the 2nd banana: "oh and we might be removing Wolf and Diddy's AD cancel, it's janky". WHAT
http://smashboards.com/threads/3-5-zss-discussion.377622/page-6#post-18061131

Also how did you play DLA recently? Are you back in MI or? @ Sk1lledFu Sk1lledFu
 
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Sk1lledFu

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I was home on Thanksgiving break in IL and he showed up to a local tourney. Apparently good friends with a bunch of the guys and shows up when he can. Was a nice surprise. He plays Ganon a bunch now but he was willing to do diddy dittos
 

SpiderMad

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I was home on Thanksgiving break in IL and he showed up to a local tourney. Apparently good friends with a bunch of the guys and shows up when he can. Was a nice surprise. He plays Ganon a bunch now but he was willing to do diddy dittos
at EXP? Where are you in IL when you visit
 
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Venom_909

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 19, 2014
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160
Diddly is finally balanced and still top tier happy I can play him again ^_^ stop being bad plz <3
 

DeFish

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So, in the lab today I discovered that you can popgun cancel into a nair or upair during a shorthop. The timing seems somewhat tight, but I was able to get to about a 70% success rate within 15 minutes of discovering it, so I think it's pretty manageable. I think that popgun cancels and fakeouts in general are criminally underused, and I think that they're going to be a big part of Diddy's 3.5 neutral game with the loss of our second banana.

Edit- Also liking short hopping towards an opponent in shield with the gun charging, then canceling into a grab as I land.
 
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Strong Badam

Super Elite
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PSA: Luck took a set from Sethlon in 3.5 with Diddy.
Diddy is still good guys lol
 
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SpiderMad

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So, in the lab today I discovered that you can popgun cancel into a nair or upair during a shorthop. The timing seems somewhat tight, but I was able to get to about a 70% success rate within 15 minutes of discovering it, so I think it's pretty manageable. I think that popgun cancels and fakeouts in general are criminally underused, and I think that they're going to be a big part of Diddy's 3.5 neutral game with the loss of our second banana.

Edit- Also liking short hopping towards an opponent in shield with the gun charging, then canceling into a grab as I land.
Yo stop stealing my stuff I haven't released yet

I might as well give you one of the other things

On Yoshis if you FH early Peanut gun to Cancel you'll insta-land on the top platform, where as otherwise you don't even land on the platform (unless you aerial, which opens up FH Fair to platform cancel); so you can super approach people on the platform going straight into a grab.
 
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DeFish

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On Yoshis if you FH early Peanut gun to Cancel you'll insta-land on the top platform, where as otherwise you don't even land on the platform (unless you aerial, which opens up FH Fair to platform cancel); so you can super approach people on the platform going straight into a grab.
So canceling gives you a little more height, or is it just where his body is from the animation? I might consider going to Yoshi's more often if I could reliably chase to that top platform.

What in gods name is a popgun cancel
Sorry, @ SpiderMad SpiderMad said I can't tell you.

While charging the peanut popgun (neutral B) if you press shield you'll cancel it, like Sheik's needles. Combined with the various turnaround and momentum changing things you can do with specials, it opens up a few neat options for Diddy.
 

DeFish

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It's not something that's been super explored yet, at least not by any of the Diddy's you usually see on stream. But I'm pretty sure that any neutral B that can be charged (Lucario, Samus, Mewtwo, etc) can be canceled in this way.

On a side note, popgun-canceled grabs are literally my favorite thing right now.
 

Soft Serve

softie
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It's not something that's been super explored yet, at least not by any of the Diddy's you usually see on stream. But I'm pretty sure that any neutral B that can be charged (Lucario, Samus, Mewtwo, etc) can be canceled in this way.

On a side note, popgun-canceled grabs are literally my favorite thing right now.
Pop gun canceling used to be instant, they changed it to 8 frames I think in like 2.6b? It was too silly grounded to be able to glide toss out of charging whenever you wanted. I miss it though.

Disqo used it a lot before and got it nerfed
 
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DeFish

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It seems like if you cancel it in the air right as you hit the ground, the cool down animation auto-cancels.
 

Venom_909

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Pop gun canceling used to be instant, they changed it to 8 frames I think in like 2.6b? It was too silly grounded to be able to glide toss out of charging whenever you wanted. I miss it though.

Disqo used it a lot before and got it nerfed
Might be maining Diddy again. . . . How long till the wolf pack sniffs out my treachery
 

SpiderMad

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Pop gun canceling used to be instant, they changed it to 8 frames I think in like 2.6b? It was too silly grounded to be able to glide toss out of charging whenever you wanted. I miss it though.

Disqo used it a lot before and got it nerfed
I thought it was already standardized/lengthened the time Diddy came out in PM

And having the cancel take reasonable time is definitely something that should and was homogenized around the cast (though Sheik's still the fastest?) there's like Squirtle, ROB's Gyro,

http://smashboards.com/threads/kong-kollege-diddy-kong-tactical-discussion.331665/#post-15205809
He didn't answer how it compares in frames to other's cancels
 
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Soft Serve

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@ SpiderMad SpiderMad I used that full hop popgun cancel thing on yoshis to platform tech chase, I think it's more optimal frame wise to do it

What else is there
What DLA posted about upb angles really helps, oh my god is that so much better. That plus focusing on optimal tech chasing/option coverage Improved my game so much since just monday
here's my list of stuff to work on
video or picture references of upb sweetspot, talk about early pull backs and tilting up at the lend of horizontal arches so you move more like a spacie upb, and land on stage when they recognize you are going for sweetspot

Using ledge jumps to waveland onto the platform as another way to get off the ledge and grab center stage/tip platform really fast. Thought about this from playing more melee and realizing how silly it is to do platform wavelands from the ledge. No invincibility but a great excape tool, so far I know it works on yoshis and battlefield, want to test warioware, dreamland, smashville, and lylats once the smash fests dies down

Then I want to really really study what to do when you have to play neutral with no banana, and playing neutral when they have the banana. Probably going to watch vods for this. After recovering neutral when they have banana is where I can improve the most

Also also how good is our gentleman? I'll test it on shield later.

This character is so good, I can't complain about bad MUS anymore, he has the tools to make all of the 60/40, I just need to find and optimize them.
 
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SpiderMad

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Used it prior to me mentioning it or used it now to test it?

Also.. Ledge jump to WL on Yoshis, stop stealing everything from the future sometime eventually video
 
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Soft Serve

softie
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Used it prior to me mentioning it or used it now to test it?

Also.. Ledge jump to WL on Yoshis, stop stealing everything from the future sometime eventually video
After you said it
ledge jumps keep ledge invincibility if you do it well, so at least on yoshis you get a lot of invincibility

Lylats timing is weird
Doesn't work on Ps2
works on dreamland well
 

Searing_Sorrow

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Are y'all now speaking of popgun cancels mobility options, that was on the 3.0 page over 3 months ago. Yes it gives you slightly more of a boost in the air, and depending on how you do it, you can change the direction you are going completely in the middle of your jump. I am just now getting time to play 3.5 more extensively, but it seems 3.5 diddy is a lot more baiting based since your opponent's options matter a lot more now.

The changes to throws originally seemed very nasty, but there are still windows to get some of the same damage even with the nerfed up throw. The issue I am finding myself having now is that unless the character has an exploitable recovery, only down smash is reliable and fast for killing. Damage racking can be argued to be even more brain dead with a dash attack that pops up for continued juggles, and free up tilts. The loss of up throw as a reliable kill option is just now starting to impact certain matchups.
 

SpiderMad

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Damage racking can be argued to be even more brain dead with a dash attack that pops up for continued juggles, and free up tilts.
I don't see where it comes free, and its got a big loss on CC I thought
 
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