DI with the dair?

[omegablackmage]

Out of habit after being struck upward or diagonally from a launching attack, i dair because i think that it reduces the knockback of the attack. I did a little bit of testing and im pretty sure that if you wiggle out of the attacks stun and dair then you can actually survive longer because the dair drops your upward momentum. Maybe someone else can test this too to see if there is any validity to this?

 

[DavieBoy]

Yes I can confirm this works from my testing too, I was actually going to make a video showing how D-air + DI can make you live about 1 or 2 more attacks longer than with just smash DI - ill post one up soon if I can.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I do it out of habit, and it certainly feels like it does a good deal to help, but I never invested time into testing it.

 

[Doval]

Aerials don't reduce the knockback of attacks.

 

[GBcrazy]

Aerials don't reduce the knockback of attacks.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fCX3nIR5uDk

 

[Doval]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fCX3nIR5uDk

Hi. That has nothing to do with knockback.

Rest assured - neither air dodging, nor any aerial, will slow you down while you're still caught in the attack's knockback. I guarantee it. The only move that'll yield instant results in slowing you down is jumping. The only maneuver that would be of any benefit to surviving longer is air dodging at high %'s so you can jump sooner.

 

[DavieBoy]

Prof DI + D-air can make you live attacks that would normally kill you with DI alone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6_UVkTun3o

 

[omegablackmage]

how do you explain that last video eh doval? im pretty sure the dair saves lives lol

 

[rabbt]

Nah, the bucket saved in that, since it stops almost ALL momentum, and he does it before the dair both times.

 

[omegablackmage]

wth are you talking about, the bucket wasn't used in that video at all

 

[DavieBoy]

No bucket lol, I didn't Air dodge either just D-air and it saved me!

 

[rabbt]

Wow...I coulda sworn there was a bucket before the dair...**** you eyeballs!!!!

 

[T-REX!]

Oh beast. Does it work for side knockback?

 

[A2ZOMG]

You actually have to Jump + D-air to get the best results IIRC.

 

[Doval]

how do you explain that last video eh doval? im pretty sure the dair saves lives lol

The nitwit conveniently leaves out that it can be done with the b-air and probably all other aerials as well, and that he'd die 1 friggin' % higher. It only happens because he's bending over.

Jesus friggin' Christ, it's the same god****ed thing in every thread. YOUR AERIALS HAVE NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER ON KNOCKBACK.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You didn't read my post.

You can Jump to D-air to cancel vertical knockback. I believe this was originally known as the Toon Link D-air glitch. But I think it actually works for other D-airs like that.

 

[surrepGuy]

Even if Doval is right, isn't the fact that the bucket works good enough? Or does that leave you to open for punishment?

 

[doodmahn]

The nitwit conveniently leaves out that it can be done with the b-air and probably all other aerials as well, and that he'd die 1 friggin' % higher. It only happens because he's bending over.

Jesus friggin' Christ, it's the same god****ed thing in every thread. YOUR AERIALS HAVE NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER ON KNOCKBACK.

Woah... Calm down...

 

[Doval]

You can Jump to D-air to cancel vertical knockback. I believe this was originally known as the Toon Link D-air glitch. But I think it actually works for other D-airs like that.

If you jumped, you were already out of the attack's knockback.

Sorry, but every single time it turns into a 3-page thread where I repeat myself over and over and over but someone must continue to insist that I'm wrong.

 

[gab3]

just a few more until page 3...

 

[omegablackmage]

no your wrong
he is clearly dies 10% later using the key, why can't you see this?

 

[DavieBoy]

The nitwit conveniently leaves out that it can be done with the b-air and probably all other aerials as well, and that he'd die 1 friggin' % higher

you could not be more wrong, I tried this once again using all other aerials and died. D-air has a property of spiking G&W to the ground so when using it while being hit up it pushes against the direction I am going - and thats what makes it useful. The point is not that I would have died 1 friggin % higher - it is the fact I was able to live that 1 attack by using D-air, and possibly letting me get more % points in before getting KOed.

 

[Doval]

I apologize for the outburst yesterday. I was in a particularly foul mood when I posted (however, I don't take back what I said - I'm getting sick of these threads.)

you could not be more wrong, I tried this once again using all other aerials and died. D-air has a property of spiking G&W to the ground so when using it while being hit up it pushes against the direction I am going - and thats what makes it useful. The point is not that I would have died 1 friggin % higher - it is the fact I was able to live that 1 attack by using D-air, and possibly letting me get more % points in before getting KOed.

It's you who's wrong. It works with ANY aerial. Do it in 1/4 speed and be sure to hold down on the analog stick after you throw out the attack. It's pretty clear that it's not a property of the d-air. As if that wasn't enough, it should be painfully obvious that if it only works on the exact % the attack will kill you if you don't take action, then the d-air isn't doing anything.

I'll say it again. Aerials WILL NEVER change an attack's knockback. Ever.

 

[omegablackmage]

lol holding down on the analog stick will make him slowfall the attack thus getting no thrust out of it. no down di, cstick down once to get the key out and di to the side, the way you should be doing it. This is unique to game and watch because all the other characters with thrusting dairs i believe stay in place or slowfall out of tumbling animation.

 

[Doval]

Are you not reading? It works with every aerial, so it's obviously not a matter of "thrust."

 

[omegablackmage]

im pretty sure it doesn't work with every aerial

i just did testing on it at at 165% i di'd rob's upthrow at 2/3 speed by holding away from rob, waggling out of the hitstun and then back airing. i died

i then did the same thing at 165% 2/3 speed, di'ing then waggling, and guess what? i lived.

 

[Doval]

i just did testing on it at at 165% i di'd rob's upthrow at 2/3 speed by holding away from rob, waggling out of the hitstun and then back airing. i died

i then did the same thing at 165% 2/3 speed, di'ing then waggling, and guess what? i lived.

And the difference between the first attempt and the second one was...? You're DI'ing and "waggling" (whatever the heck that is, I can only assume it's wiggling...which is completely innecessary) in both of them.

 

[omegablackmage]

no it isn't unneccessary, it allows you to perform attack out of getting hit sooner. Since you can't smash di out of a throw holding left or right out of an upward sending throw sends you at the best possible di. By simply di'ing to the left or right out of rob's up throw, you live to about 155. If you di, then hit left/right quickly on the control stick you get out of your tumble animation faster, allowing you to perform an attack. By wiggling/waggling (whatever) with a bair you live to 164 with bair and to 166 with the dair.

I know your going to probably argue that hitting towards after the throw would mess the di up so i just wiggled/waggled away from rob after di'ing the throw and was able to survive for longer. Your also probably going to say "what a small difference, 2 percent" but the point is you were wrong when you were such an *** being so sure you were right.

 

[Doval]

Wiggling has no effect on your ability to attack. Wiggling on takes you out of tumbling, and you can attack while tumbling anyways. More importantly, tumbling happens AFTER the attack's knockback. In this case, you're attacking before the knockback and stun are over, so tumbling never happens.

After a lot of headaches and failed attempts, I got the d-air to shorten the distance G&W travels vertically. I'll concede that I was wrong on that account - however, it still doesn't have anything to do with wiggling, or "thrust." Like I said, wiggling won't let you d-air any sooner, and it doesn't really matter when you use the d-air as long as you're not using it almost exactly when you're going to die.

After checking other characters, the only aerials I've found so far which gimp your vertical distance are Ivysaur's down air, which doesn't involve downward movement at all - normally, it stops Ivysaur's movement altogether - and Lucario's d-air, which also stops him. The one aerial Ivysaur has that does give it downward thrust, the up-air, doesn't work. Fox's f-air normally makes him go higher when used during a jump, yet he doesn't go any further when used during an attack's knockback. Other diving attacks like Zero Suit Samus's d-air also don't change the distance you go. Not even Toon Link's works, and his is exactly like G&W's, except more extreme, because he goes higher at first and falls even faster. So it's clearly not an issue of "thrust." At this point, which aerials work seems to be completely arbitrary.

In my defense, I had no way of knowing that a small number of completely random aerials will slow you down ONLY vertically, and ONLY if you use C-stick while you hold left or right on the analog stick. There's no logical reason why it should work that way, and it completely contradicts what happens 99% of the time. I had tested various characters using different aerials thoroughly before posting in this thread (because similar threads have popped up before,) but I was doing the inputs with the control stick, because the C-stick is unresponsive at lower game speeds, and even during normal gameplay, you can mash A faster than you can mash the C-stick. Plus, most of the arguments presented were completely anecdotal, and exactly the same as the people who claim that they absolutely positively survive longer when they air dodge, even though they don't bother to test it.

We were both somewhat off the mark, but I was the one being a **** about it, so sorry about that.

 

[omegablackmage]

first of all im very surprised that wiggling has nothing to do how soon you can do an attack, does it only affect when you can jump/air dodge? if this is the case then at the very least it will be easier to di certain moves.

the only reason i would assume that gw's dair makes him live longer and not for any other reason is that when he uses the dair after being hit he actually travels downward unlike toon link or zamus who stall in the air or move very slowly downward. Im not trying to justify that my character is awesome or anything, just trying to solidify what i was so sure worked in terms of di.

i thank you for at least admitting that you were wrong, most stubborn smashers would prefer to not post and ignore it, so im glad that you at least came back to at least make sense of the situation. And i will entirely agree that it would make perfect sense why this WOULDNT work, but we were just trying to point out that this was an abnormal case.

the only thing i don't get is why this isn't involved with thrust. in melee this obviously wouldn't work because no moves had any of these properties, but now in brawl only moves that have awkward thrusting properties seem to have any effect?

and its fine that you were being an ***, at least you had the balls to come back and say something.

 

[Doval]

first of all im very surprised that wiggling has nothing to do how soon you can do an attack, does it only affect when you can jump/air dodge? if this is the case then at the very least it will be easier to di certain moves.

Tumbling doesn't really prevent you from taking actions...all it does is make you land on your *** if you were tumbling when you hit the ground. And no, wiggling doesn't have an effect on how soon you can air dodge or attack. The only factor as to how soon you can attack/air dodge seems to be how far the attack's going to send you in the first place (i.e. if the attack sends you really far, then you'll travel further before you can do an aerial compared to an attack that sends you a short distance.)

the only thing i don't get is why this isn't involved with thrust. in melee this obviously wouldn't work because no moves had any of these properties, but now in brawl only moves that have awkward thrusting properties seem to have any effect?

Like I pointed out, it doesn't make sense given the attacks that do and don't work. All of the ones that work do have weird aerial properties, but this behavior doesn't seem to be dependent on whether the attack sends you up, down, or stops you. There's just no pattern...I can't go and say "This d-air will probably work, because it's very similar to G&W's" because as we've seen, that doesn't hold true.

I'm going to test ROB's aerials tomorrow since his b-air sends him forward and his d-air stops him and gives him a small upwards push, but right now I need to get to bed.

 

[omegablackmage]

alrighty well thanks for the extended research into this

 

[Doval]

Ok, ROB's d-air worked, and that stops him. Its b-air didn't work. Snake's d-air worked, and that doesn't change his aerial movement at all.

There's just one big problem. I just tested this in Brawl mode and I couldn't get it to work. At all. I tried with Ivysaur, G&W, and Snake. It seems to be Training Mode-specific. Can you confirm that for me, omegablackmage?

 

[omegablackmage]

yeah i can look into it but your going to run into problems with move depreciation, making it a pain in the *** to test. i can't see why it would be training specific, at least i hope it isn't

 

[Doval]

What I did was go into a normal Brawl, by Time but infinite time, and with Handicaps so you can set the % of the other person. I tried and tried, and couldn't get it to work, even though I do it easily in Training Mode. And yeah, I was killing both characters between attempts, so move decay wasn't an issue. I'm pretty convinced it doesn't work on Brawl mode, which is the only mode that really matters, but I want confirmation from someone else.

 

[St. Viers]

Doval, knockback lasts after hitstun.... also, wiggling is better than air-dodging

re: how I remember people talking about how it works. Try jumping as soon as possible and THEN d-airing as you jump. I'm pretty sure that works. I could be wrong though...

 

[omegablackmage]

yeah i tried testing it in normal brawl and slo-mo to see if it was a speed factor and also could not get it to work, really weird.