Defensive Vs. Aggro playstyles

[klimno klock]

deleted, smashboards has no delete account feature

 

[<π]

All fighters are about punishment. They are all about taking measured risks to get rewards. Different characters (and people) try to win different ways.

Lil mac for example has a great safe low risk presure game. he can throw out smashes and tilts when ever he wants. That kind of safety lends well to an aggressive playstyle. (that saftey against defensive options is why you can be so aggressive in melee)

On the flip a characters like village has no safe on sheild approaches but great zoning tools. but great kills and damage if he gets a good read or puinish. He lends better to more defensive styles.

 

[Gawain]

Nah. This game is more balanced in this respect than either brawl or melee. Campy ranged characters can be effective but there's always a way around them. Typically the people who do it are just not very good and crumple under any pressure. There are obviously some bad matchups but for the most part aggressive vs defensive is fine in this game.

 

[Delzethin]

I don't have a ton of experience with the game yet, and it's hard to say so far with how young the metagame is, but it doesn't really seem to be the case. Campier characters always do better at first, especially new ones that people aren't used to yet (points at Duck Hunt). Once methods develop to get around the camping, they metaphorically fall back to earth and it becomes a duel between the approacher trying to exploit those methods and close the distance and the camper trying to prevent that from happening and maintain their distance.

Overall, it seems like whether offense or defense works better is on a character-by-character basis. It's a really nice balance, since it means both ends of the spectrum are viable in the right context, unlike the previous games where one or the other was significantly stronger.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Both because it depends on the character.

Some characters are not aggro at all but others are pretty much rush down or some form of aggro style.

 

[BeastKiller6ixx]

Game definitely favors a defensive playstyle. Rolling is abusable, they just run around the map the entire game avoiding the fight and just spam moves. It's completely lame. It's not that I can't deal with it, it's just that playstyle is so rewarding because this game is still very slow. Levels are very large and the deathline is super far. Either smash attacks need to come out quicker and hit you much farther. You shouldn't be at over 150% and surviving from my up smash or any smash attack that I use.

I don't like where this game is headed. My only solace is that when the wii u version comes out, that the team behind project m start another project and properly rewarding players for playing offensive and actually taking risk, not constantly sitting on the edge and running around throwing items and projectiles all day.

I'm really hoping someone good discovers some very offensive character that's just always being aggressive and just indefinitely beating players who are clearly playing the game wrong. Game is so unbalanced from offensive vs defensive.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not to sound like I am being condesending on this, but you need to get better at reading and knowing how to punish certain moves.

The playstyle is rewarding because it's on the 3DS system, not because of the game. It's a lot harder to react and punish along with input correctly since no one is used to control set-up.

Rolls are still very punishable, people need to pivot grab or know how to react to it.

If they are spaming moves, why aren't you trying to find a counter measure? This is why Lil' Mac is doing so well on For Glory, no one knows how to react to his fast offensive rush down even more so when he has a KO punch. He still can be broken into and punished, but it's not gonna be learned easily.

 

[Raijinken]

It's noticeably balanced around character matchups rather than overall playstyle. If you're a Ness or Palutena for instance, and the enemy is a Bowser or Little Mac, then yeah, you're going to have to play defensive and hope they screw up so you can get an opening. But if you're the Mac, it's on you to rush 'em down before they can pitch their tent, and it's not really hard to do so.

Play smart, both styles are viable here, unlike past games.

You shouldn't be at over 150% and surviving from my up smash or any smash attack that I use.

Play Little Mac like everyone else does. No one should survive at that percent if you do.

 

[Roko Jono]

Shield is so incredibly strong in this game. What I mean is, there is hardly much shield stun and acting out of shield is faster than its ever been. I have been blocking unsafe moves, dropping my shield, and doing a slow forward smash such as Ganon's and KO'ing people early with it. I suppose though it is the aggro player's fault for using such an unsafe move.

Edit: Also, shield drop jab combo can also punish a large number of moves on block. Even the seemingly safe looking ones.

 

[DefenseTech]

Not to sound like I am being condesending on this, but you need to get better at reading and knowing how to punish certain moves.

The playstyle is rewarding because it's on the 3DS system, not because of the game. It's a lot harder to react and punish along with input correctly since no one is used to control set-up.

Rolls are still very punishable, people need to pivot grab or know how to react to it.

If they are spaming moves, why aren't you trying to find a counter measure? This is why Lil' Mac is doing so well on For Glory, no one knows how to react to his fast offensive rush down even more so when he has a KO punch. He still can be broken into and punished, but it's not gonna be learned easily.

100% agreed

Anyone complaining about rolling needs to learn to read and punish...I love seeing my opponent rolling around

 

[Roko Jono]

100% agreed

Anyone complaining about rolling needs to learn to read and punish...I love seeing my opponent rolling around

New advanced technique: B.S. (Back Smash)
This advance tech is really hard to do, but is very rewarding. When facing your opponent and you detect high level play of rolling behind you, you input a smash attack, but behind yourself (I know, why would you do that?) and if timed correctly, it will follow your opponent automatically! Hit people with B.S. but try not to get hit by B.S. yourself.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I find most Little Macs are not using him to his potential as a defensive counter character. His dodges and rolls are super fast and his grounded attacks are not just strong, but also quick and have great range. People SHOULD be playing Mac like Punch Out and seeing if it works, cause for me I think it's where he'll do best in the long run.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

no shield stun + no z-cancel => just shield then grab any opponent that approaches with air moves

 

[DefenseTech]

no shield stun + no z-cancel => just shield then grab any opponent that approaches with air moves

Space. Your. Aerials. Properly.

 

[SmashWolf]

Shield stun should be a million times higher, acting out of shield should be slower, rolls should have more lag, airdodges should have more cooldown before you can do another one, you shouldn't lose momentum from jumping.

Fix these, and MAYBE, just maybe we can talk about this game being viable for aggressive, instead of passive play.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Space. Your. Aerials. Properly.

you probably think ness is really good in 64 too right?

 

[DefenseTech]

you probably think ness is really good in 64 too right?

Pika or nothing, still need to space aerials...even Isai

 

[Chakra-X]

I feel like people are afraid to edge guard off stage in this game, but I have made great success with it. I even died sooner than I thought by people who actually jump off the edge to attack or meteor smash. Combining the fact that many people got meteor smashes, meteor canceling (i believe) is gone, and the way ledge hogging works, I would say that highly benefits an offensive play. Air dodging close to the ground pretty much screams "hit me please".

I have been having a blast online and I play heavily on the offensive. I see no issue with how safer rolling is. I am sure it's annoying at high lag matches, and camping will only get you so far. Shulk don'y give a damn about your projectiles

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

no shield stun + no z-cancel => just shield then grab any opponent that approaches with air moves

GL doing that against Lil'Mac on the ground or anyone who can spare properly. You will get punished hard if you rely on that, Marth can still outspace a shield grab with his nerfed moves and the same for Lucina.

 

[AzureFlame4]

From my experience it's match-up based. For instance my Shulk got wrecked by a DHD user due to projectiles, but when I switched over to Little Mac I was able to easily get in and do some damage. I do think the game as the potential to be a more defensive style game, but aggressive play isn't completely impossible.

 

[Lichi]

I am using almost exclusively Lucina in online matches, so I won't talk about options in general. But with Lucina I try to be all over my opponents, using the sword range to space out opponents just like you should have in every other Smash with Marth. I'd say I have an extremely aggressive playstyle and it works very well so far. It is just more about precision than flailing at the opponent.
The defensive players that run / roll away and spam projectiles etc tend to be annoying, but in most cases, very beatable.

 

[OFY]

I believe aggro style will be more rewarding in this game. Simple reason is that many moves lead to high knockback in this game. Standard A's and dash attacks for example have some of the most knockback I've seen in any smash game. High knockback leads to followups depending on their DI and from there another metagame is created within a match.

 

[Losnar]

Dodge his punch then counter-punch.

 

[Shiliski]

Whenever I've lost to someone, it was usually an aggro playstyle, not a defensive one. I've only played about 150 matches or so, so YMMV, but I haven't seen a lot of benefit from a defensive playstyle.

Little Mac is only harder than usual until you learn how to deal with him. After you get past the learning curve he's just like any other character.

Don't get me wrong. He's a solid pick for FG. I wouldn't argue with anyone who said that he was high tier. It's just that he's just not an invincible juggernaut or anything. He has a lot of unsafe moves that can be punished if you know to look out for them, and it's not hard to get him to waste his KO. I've also had more than one Little Mac lose to me because they Side B'd off the ledge and couldn't recover in time all because they weren't expecting me to simply jump at the last second.

Also I main Rosaluma and my side B is great for punishing approaches from the side. It's also worth noting that my viewpoint on this might be a bit biased because RosaLuma has Ways to deal with campers. I don't know if all characters have that benefit.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I keep getting hit from moves that look like they're safe on shield by a similarly long-ranged attack. The problem is that there's less shieldstun than there is shield-push, so even if I smack a foe's shield hard enough that they go flying away from me, they can still punish with a Smash Attack. Example: Mii Brawler's Forward Smash. It's safe from shield-grabbing due to the sheer amount of shield-push it causes, but many characters can still counter with their own Forward Smash out of shield as they can get out of shield before they stop sliding and my Forward Smash leaves my hurtbox much closer to the foe during its endlag.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Aggro works....sorta. I feel like even with properly spaced aerials it might not be enough with some characters. I use Mario and Doc, trying to approach with Bair is very uncomfortable at the moment and I really just wish the shieldstun was like, maybe slightly less than Melee but I feel like they reduced it just a bit too much, IMO. It's either increase it, or make shields heal slower so you can't rely on them as much.

Right now it looks like it favors both and it probably will, but one will definitely become optimal for a good portion of the cast and that will be the dominate one competitively. I enjoy this game a lot but the shields are just one of the few negatives in my eyes. I like that they break fast but their healing rate combined with the low shieldstun is just too much IMO. But I wouldn't say aggressive play is impossible here.

 

[Gawain]

I keep getting hit from moves that look like they're safe on shield by a similarly long-ranged attack. The problem is that there's less shieldstun than there is shield-push, so even if I smack a foe's shield hard enough that they go flying away from me, they can still punish with a Smash Attack. Example: Mii Brawler's Forward Smash. It's safe from shield-grabbing due to the sheer amount of shield-push it causes, but many characters can still counter with their own Forward Smash out of shield as they can get out of shield before they stop sliding and my Forward Smash leaves my hurtbox much closer to the foe during its endlag.

You just need to find moves that are safer then. When I'm playing aggressively with Falcon i Foxtrot and shield dash, and one of my main approach options is a falling uair. If you do the uair and fast fall you can instantly go into jabs or tilts or anything since it has such a ridiculously low landing lag.

 

[SpiritGuru]

The game's core mechanics look like they would favor a defensive playstyle which has a lot of people accusing the game of being campy. But to be honest, the game does a pretty great job of providing workarounds to people who play like that.

Almost every character has options for approaching an enemy, and those that don't will obviously be placed on the bottom of the tier list. This means that while the game will certainly accommodate defensive play the truly high level matches will feature their fair share of offensive technique as well once people start figuring out how to punish the "cheap campy" characters like Duck Hun.

 

[Bedoop]

This means that while the game will certainly accommodate defensive play the truly high level matches will feature their fair share of offensive technique as well once people start figuring out how to punish the "cheap campy" characters like Duck Hunt.

is actually a good offensive and defensive character.
You don't need to use the projectiles to win, but it's reccomended you do so due to it's wacky style and edgeguarding ability.

 

[Shiliski]

is actually a good offensive and defensive character.
You don't need to use the projectiles to win, but it's reccomended you do so due to it's wacky style and edgeguarding ability.

Yeah I find DHD pretty offensive too. That freaking chuckle.

Oh! You meant in terms of playstyles.

Yeah actually his projectiles can be used to cover an approach, and he does have a few pretty good approach options.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I say both because of these reasons:

- Defensive play, while still rewarding and a strong option, is not as OP as it was in Brawl.
- Unlike Brawl, there are now ways to get around camping.
- A lot of the characters I've played online IMO so far, are mostly aggressive characters. they will have trouble, but once you get close and stay close to the opponent, you will shut down their camping and force them to go on the offense. Most of these were against GOOD players, not beginners or anything like that.
- I know lots claim the off-stage play is worthless, but I disagree. It can be a good offensive option, it's just that no one is giving it a chance. been using it a lot and won most of my games with it.

 

[zozo]

It's also worth noting that my viewpoint on this might be a bit biased because RosaLuma has Ways to deal with campers. I don't know if all characters have that benefit.

I'm learning RosaLuma and I'd definitely like to know how to deal with campers if you wouldn't mind telling me.

 

[Shiliski]

I'm learning RosaLuma and I'd definitely like to know how to deal with campers if you wouldn't mind telling me.

Depends entirely on the level and type of camp, but there are a few tricks that RosaLuma can use.

Down B is very spammable. It's unsafe at close range, and leaves you open to approach if you aren't careful, but at a distance it will nullify most projectiles. Only one that seems to be immune is Din's Fire, but Din's Fire has other problems. Really, a lot of projectile spam is all about forcing you to approach, but with RosaLuma you can basically tell them, "No, YOU approach."

A lot of times, the Luma will take the hit from a projectile spammer. Especially if they are using smaller, uncharged projectiles. This will leave your Luma in hitstun and might even destroy it after a bit, but it can act as a shield which means that Rosalina wont flinch or take damage.

Mostly it depends upon the specific matchup, but I've had projectile campers just stop and stare at me once they realized that I was just going to spam Down B as long as they were spamming projectiles.

 

[zozo]

@ Shiliski I feel like such a dummy. I completely forgot about Rosa's down B. Massive facepalm.

 

[Deleted member]

So what are good moves out of shield? I can shield grab and attack near perfect and they have time to land and do a jab on me. Do I just need to get better at timing? Honestly it's hard to tell because lag is such a huge factor now.

 

[mimgrim]

It depends on the character on what the best move OoS is. But in General, every character can grab (of course), Usmash, or do any Special out of Shield.

 

[mangamusicfan]

I don't think it is.
in my opinion this is the most balanced smash of all, people are still learning the game.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

In my opinion shielding and rolling is too good in this game for it to be otherwise, and so is airdodges despite the new landing lag.

 

[WhiteCane]

Game definitely favors a defensive playstyle. Rolling is abusable, they just run around the map the entire game avoiding the fight and just spam moves. It's completely lame. It's not that I can't deal with it, it's just that playstyle is so rewarding because this game is still very slow. Levels are very large and the deathline is super far. Either smash attacks need to come out quicker and hit you much farther. You shouldn't be at over 150% and surviving from my up smash or any smash attack that I use.

I don't like where this game is headed. My only solace is that when the wii u version comes out, that the team behind project m start another project and properly rewarding players for playing offensive and actually taking risk, not constantly sitting on the edge and running around throwing items and projectiles all day.

I'm really hoping someone good discovers some very offensive character that's just always being aggressive and just indefinitely beating players who are clearly playing the game wrong. Game is so unbalanced from offensive vs defensive.

They're a handful of characters like that, people just need to try the offstage game now. Smash 4 was clearly made with that in mind that why people can recover so far and why the blast zones are wider. That's also why people aren't invincible while grabbing the ledge. (Thank God)

There's no wrong way to play this game, most character have a few ways to win. It falls on the player to be unpredictable and get their timing right, some just find it harder to keep up. You already saying this game should be modded? If you mod a game right away it destroys the main game like it did for Brawl. Mods are used for broken games (like Skyrim) Smash 4 is definitely not broken.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Game definitely favors a defensive playstyle. Rolling is abusable, they just run around the map the entire game avoiding the fight and just spam moves.

I strongly disagree that rolling is 'abusable' in any sense of the word. It's very easy to punish if you anticipate it.

And tbh, whether or not gameplay is defensive or not seems to vary pretty hugely by character. It's too early to reliably tell, but I'd say the game tends to reward defense more than offense (and, for the record, I don't think that's a bad thing).