Dealing with high level Rosaluma players.

[-Fatality-]

Falcon, while probably not top tier, seems to have so many positive and winnable matchups that he's quite tournament viable, especially when the Wii U version comes out and we start mastering Falcon's technical stuff. That being said, Rosaluma is so completely different from pretty much any smash character ever, and so powerful, that I think learning to specifically fight her merits it's own thread. Especially since she's arguably the best character, and one we'll likely see a lot of in tournaments.

To start, various things should be tested, such as exactly how much damage Luma can sustain before dying, how long till Luma comes back, and how much hitstun affects Luma so we can figure out some safe ways to beat up on Luma.

Playing patient is key here, I think when Luma is isolated it's probably generally the correct option to just beat up Luma and ignore Rosalina, as without Luma, the matchup definitely swings in Falcon's favor a good bit.
D-throw FF U-air is incredible at low percents against her, with her weight, if she instantly airdodges and avoids the u-air, you get a free re-grab/u-air/gentleman, and if she doesn't vector away, you get an u-air. Since she doesn't have any especially fast aerials, she can really only airdodge or jump against Falcon's juggling, and FF u-airs become more important than usual. A lot of emphasis should probably be on the punish game in this matchup, since good openings will probably be scarce against a good Rosaluma player. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this matchup.

 

[ConeZ]

I believe Luma can sustain 50% before dying, and it is roughly an 8 second timer for her respawn. I am pretty sure that this is reliable information, but you can probably verify it by checking the Rosaluma threads xD

As for the matchup, I feel like it is very much winnable, but she has some pretty stupid **** she can do. One thing to be careful for as well! Even if you break her shield, she can still control Luma (which is kinda dumb), so I actually lost a game versus Rosaluma as Peach after trying to punish her upon breaking her shield with a Mr. Saturn... So that is something to keep in mind if you ever happen to break her shield :x

I do think you are right though. Emphasis should be on the punish game in this matchup.
Honestly, what I have done against her is I will try and get Luma out of the way or bait her to throw Luma at me, then I will go in while Luma is away from her, and that is when I usually have the most success.

Also something to note if you hadn't seen the stupid seemingly infinite jab combos that Luma can do, I have gotten caught in a 0 to 56% jab combo against her that ended in a down smash.... I am not sure if we can get out of it if she snags you in it, and I am also not entirely sure what the pre-reqs for it to work for them is, but I tried vectoring up and away, and I hit jump and shield like a madman, but I pretty much just had to take it because of the weird hitstun properties and speed of her (Luma's) jab.

I won't say I can really think of MUCH else to say on the matchup, but that is what I have observed thus far.

 

[BigLord]

So far I've met one or two good Rosaluma players, and yeah, it's pretty much a "wait-and-punish" match-up. The best thing you can do, honestly, is try to rack up damage however you can, and then punish a mistake (whiffed f-smash or d-smash, for example) with something fast, like a quick bair or even a grounded raptor boost.

And as for Luma, yep, kill her/him ASAP. But if Rosalina sends Luma as a charge attack against you, that means she's a lot more vulnerable now. Take that chance to pummel her. Drive her away from Luma. Then while Luma is coming back, hit her/him with a Uair or something.

Of course, these "good" players weren't top level, so I'm probably wrong about this match-up and there's something more to it than this :\

 

[-Fatality-]

Just going after Rosalina when she does the charge shot with Luma might end up being the correct move in general, though I'm pretty concerned with some aspects of that plan. For one, I expect that a lot of smart Rosalina players will be expecting you to charge when se does that and preemptively dash attack, nair, or grab you as you come. Another thing is that you could maybe get sandwiched between their attacks and get combo'd a lot, Georgia's best smash 4 player right now does this a lot to people who try to rush him down after luma shot. One thing about approaching when luma's out like that is you lack the space to preserve a lot of Falcon's options in neutral, which can turn the neutral into a guessing game with maybe more unfavorable outcomes possible than favorable, unless of course I'm missing something else we could do there, or am just completely wrong. One nice thing about just beating up Luma is that if she just tries to beat you up with luma, luma will die and then you have all your options in neutral against her solo for 8 seconds, and if she tries to come over and save Luma, then the situation I mentioned earlier has reversed as she's now suppressing her own options in the neutral to stop your luma beating and this can turn the neutral into a guessing game with more favorable outcomes then unfavorable.

On a different note, I've yet to decide whether it's generally better to approach with short hop single hit Nairs, or short hop Bairs, Bair seems better against Rosalina in general, but maybe it's better to be facing forwards against her in general, thoughts?

 

[Kinslayer]

Just going after Rosalina when she does the charge shot with Luma might end up being the correct move in general, though I'm pretty concerned with some aspects of that plan. For one, I expect that a lot of smart Rosalina players will be expecting you to charge when se does that and preemptively dash attack, nair, or grab you as you come. Another thing is that you could maybe get sandwiched between their attacks and get combo'd a lot, Georgia's best smash 4 player right now does this a lot to people who try to rush him down after luma shot. One thing about approaching when luma's out like that is you lack the space to preserve a lot of Falcon's options in neutral, which can turn the neutral into a guessing game with maybe more unfavorable outcomes possible than favorable, unless of course I'm missing something else we could do there, or am just completely wrong. One nice thing about just beating up Luma is that if she just tries to beat you up with luma, luma will die and then you have all your options in neutral against her solo for 8 seconds, and if she tries to come over and save Luma, then the situation I mentioned earlier has reversed as she's now suppressing her own options in the neutral to stop your luma beating and this can turn the neutral into a guessing game with more favorable outcomes then unfavorable.

On a different note, I've yet to decide whether it's generally better to approach with short hop single hit Nairs, or short hop Bairs, Bair seems better against Rosalina in general, but maybe it's better to be facing forwards against her in general, thoughts?

They won't grab or dash attack you all the time, and honestly that isn't even the issue. The problem is when she calls him back and you're already committed to advancing toward her. So no luma is on his way back to rosalina (luma will be facing her/your direction) and now you're sandwiched between both and being punished for the punish attempt you are making.

Rosa luma are broken by design, especially luma. Since he is a projectile and a character he helps rosa win trades up close and at a distance. But up close you can clash with his normal then rosalina comes behind and hits you with hers. Also, the fact that she can still hit while being hit gives issues.

 

[BigLord]

Yeah, the fact that you can't grab her, for example, is really bad for Falcon. One of the reasons why you should get rid of Luma ASAP.

 

[-Fatality-]

Yeah, I'm definitely leaning towards just killing Luma when it's seperate from Rosalina, and attacking with well spaced U-airs and Bairs in the neutral, and punishing bad spacing and over commitment with raptor boost and grabs. I think U-throw might actually be the better throw when they're together since following up on a D-throw requires you to move past Luma and likely get hit by something, whereas with U-throw you just get her out of the way and in a bad position while you freely beat up Luma.

 

[Ramz289]

Rosalina's ***** for Doc to deal with, holy crap man..
I've only played two Rosaluma players as Falcon; one wasn't really that great and switched characters the next game, the other one just scrudstomped me. Total destruction. I was thinking about this earlier today and found this thread in the Rosalina boards:

 

[Ramz289]

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-do-i-fight-a-rosalina-player.372643/
Sorry for double posting but smash boards is being ******** -_-
So yeah likeI was saying, I've only read the first couple of post but this thread seems to have a lot of good insight

 

[Overmaster]

I feel like you guys are really missing the goal here. I would say you should probably avoid Luma rather than focusing it. Luma is surprisingly hardy but has only an 8 second respawn. That is an incredibly small window to do anything. With a window of opportunity like that, you'll spend three times as much time killing Lumas as you will damaging Rosa. So what to do? Seperate Luma and Rosalina. Luma is as good as dead if he can't hit you, and he's not particularly fast when not connected at Rosa's hip.

When the two are seperated, that's your time to strike while she has to do neutral-B's to call the kid back. Killing Luma should be something done inadvertently-- for example, most Luma's end up dying from stage falls than they really do by damage. It's ismply not practical to try and beat them down and rely on an 8(!) second window to hit Rosalina-- who you must remember isn't in a stunned state just because Luma died.

 

[Ramz289]

Yeah killing luma is more trouble than it's worth. Even without luma Rosalina isn't exactly helpless.
(Read the thread I posted)

 

[Thinkaman]

There is no infinite jab combo; you can SDI inward to escape.

I actually think you SHOULD go for Luma when it's a free kill, which it usually is if you are considering it. Falcon's mobility and juggle threat make him a real nightmare to solo Rosalina. She strongly prefers having Luma against him. Rosalina alone can't challenge you as much, so go grab-heavy.

Raptor Boost is more valuable against Rosalina than in most matchups. It's always going to hit Luma (short of her jumping out of the way) as a consolation prize, and Rosalina hates being above you. She is also easy to kill vertically.

 

[BigLord]

Both of you are correct, I think. You should go for Luma whenever you have the chance, but you can't focus exclusively on her, otherwise you won't do any damage to Rosalina and things will get ugly from there...

 

[Ramz289]

Yeah that's what I should have said. Kill luma when the opportunity arises. Good Rosalinas well punish you if you try going ham on luma.
I haven't played many Rosalina as Falcon (or gotten the chance to read the thread I posted :/) so I shouldn't comment to much to avoid spreading misinformation (plus really godlike bad).

 

[Kinslayer]

There is no infinite jab combo; you can SDI inward to escape.

I actually think you SHOULD go for Luma when it's a free kill, which it usually is if you are considering it. Falcon's mobility and juggle threat make him a real nightmare to solo Rosalina. She strongly prefers having Luma against him. Rosalina alone can't challenge you as much, so go grab-heavy.

Raptor Boost is more valuable against Rosalina than in most matchups. It's always going to hit Luma (short of her jumping out of the way) as a consolation prize, and Rosalina hates being above you. She is also easy to kill vertically.

Rosalina alone can challenge us because she has a lot of solid priority and more range than us on her moves. Her dodge disappears and then reappears so we don't really know how she is rolling unless the player is being really predictable with their rolling. So, going crazy isn't exactly our smartest of moves.

Raptor boosting luma puts us in a position where rosalina 9/10 times will be able to punish us for it and then will proceed to dance away for 8 seconds because she knows we want to be in her face at this time and can punish our mistakes when we go full aggro (which is the prime time to punish mistakes).

Maybe if you can posts a few vids to show exactly what you mean it might help.

 

[Overmaster]

Rosalina alone can challenge us because she has a lot of solid priority and more range than us on her moves. Her dodge disappears and then reappears so we don't really know how she is rolling unless the player is being really predictable with their rolling. So, going crazy isn't exactly our smartest of moves.

Raptor boosting luma puts us in a position where rosalina 9/10 times will be able to punish us for it and then will proceed to dance away for 8 seconds because she knows we want to be in her face at this time and can punish our mistakes when we go full aggro (which is the prime time to punish mistakes).

Maybe if you can posts a few vids to show exactly what you mean it might help.

People are still assuming that if you deal with Luma, Rosalina's shield will break and her brain will turn to liquid goop. She can easily durdle until it comes back. And putting her into durdle mode is the least of what you want.

 

[Zenpie]

I main RosaLuma and I haven't had any problems facing Capt Falcon but one in particular would elbow Luma off the stage when given the chance or bait me into blocking when I'm on the edge( with Luma linked) and do a dash attack that Rosa blocks but hits Luma off. He was pretty good too but I don't personally have much trouble running for 8 secs haha. It's not like Ice Climbers where if you lose your partner it's pretty much game over.

 

[ConeZ]

I still think it is probably our best option is to punish Rosalina when Luma is not near her because killing Luma really doesn't get you much time to punish when she is still able to kite away and act.

 

[Nixon Corral]

People are still assuming that if you deal with Luma, Rosalina's shield will break and her brain will turn to liquid goop. She can easily durdle until it comes back. And putting her into durdle mode is the least of what you want.

Yeah, but taking out Luma when you've got an easy opportunity is still kind of a no brainer, I would think. If Rosa goes completely on the defensive at that point, you should still be able to manage some % on her if you play smart and use the Luma absence to your advantage. In that vein, getting rid of Luma inherently reduces Rosa's options, which is pretty much always what you want to be doing (against any opponent).

 

[Overmaster]

Yeah, but taking out Luma when you've got an easy opportunity is still kind of a no brainer, I would think. If Rosa goes completely on the defensive at that point, you should still be able to manage some % on her if you play smart and use the Luma absence to your advantage. In that vein, getting rid of Luma inherently reduces Rosa's options, which is pretty much always what you want to be doing (against any opponent).

You go FSmash her baby, and Rosalina will pop behind you in a flash and Fsmash you back. I just have difficulty imagining these "easy opportunities"-- when Rosalina is recovering? You sure you don't want to be ledgeguarding that? Now I don't main Captain Falcon, but I'm pretty sure you guys guy a killer heel kick that will put more pressure on Rosa than losing her Luma for 8 seconds.

 

[BigLord]

Now I don't main Captain Falcon, but...

Hmm.

 

[M@v]

Raptor boost is really nice because even if you get punished for it, you are going to hit luma 95% of the time with it. Can kill Luma very quickly too. You don't want to use it all the time obviously, because its not always worth trading luma damage for getting punished. Its just a nice thing to have in your pocket when you know luma is close to dying.

 

[Overmaster]

Hmm.

Oh good, I was expecting this. It's not like I said "Now I don't play Smash 4..."
I didn't even say "I don't play Captain Falcon..."

You could clearly tell this by my flair, (That isn't a perfect row of Captain Falcon's heads) but I wasn't aware being a die-hard all-day Captain Falcon main was a requirement to talk about Rosalina and Luma.

 

[BigLord]

I'm just saying that proooobably you don't know Captain Falcon like we do.

 

[ConeZ]

Alright, SO I think d-throw to knee is a fairly reliable combo on her somewhere in the 45% to 65% range (I have not figured out the exact spot or the timing perfectly yet, but it seemed reliable against computers today even when they were definitely vectoring.
I also want to clarify that I know CPUs are not the most reliable test dummy, but they were all I had at the time I practiced today. In any case, I mostly wanted to share that I am going to test it more later this week with a couple friends.

I think the punish game is going to be really really important in this matchup, since Rosaluma's neutral seems so solid.

 

[Odon]

I would say try ignoring the fact that luma is even there for the most part. If you focus too much on luma rosa will punish you for it. With that said you do want to try to separate the two so you can rush in for a grab. Rosalina doesn't seem to do well against falcons d-throw to u-air/fair(sometimes nair depending on percent) but if luma is there to save her your grabs are worthless. you can try spacing with shorthop nair and try to get a jab combo out of it. Falcon kick and raptor boost both don't seem to be a good approach option unless you get a read. This is just what I've gathered so far from personal experience, I don't think its a good matchup for falcon but its not overwhelmingly in rosaluma's favor either.

 

[Gardex]

Consider using fthrow in this matchup as well.

While its follow-up potential doesn't quite match that of the dthrow, it's still faster and gets an active hitbox during the throw-animation that will interrupt Luma's attempt to interrupt you. I abuse this a lot vs her.
This also applies to bthrow to a lesser extent
Although sometimes you'll slide far enough away from Luma if you do a dash grab that she wont be able to hit you before the dthrow comes out anyways ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[mlorenzo]

Also keep in mind that falcon jab and dash attack will put the Luma on a dizzy state, and you can get fast luma kills. This matchup is a wait and punish matchup, but we have the speed to go in and out. Don't relying on killing the luma, but Falcon shouldn't have much trouble with the luma, since he has a lot of move that will stunt the luma and kill it at low percent.

 

[BigLord]

Completely agree, Gardex, f-throw's hitbox is not to be disregarded since it can also hit Luma. U-throw too, to some extent...

 

[AetherStorm]

As a RosaLuma/Falcon player, I think I can provide a few tips. While playing RosaLuma, there is a very thin line between the skill level of the Falcons that can beat me, and those that can’t. I’ve noticed that it comes down to aggressiveness. When a Falcon player gets up close and in my face, like they should(?), I usually get 2 stocked, mainly because RosaLuma is a very light floaty, and gets bodied by these types of characters. However, if the Falcon player tends to whiff moves, they’re very easily punishable. Raptor boosting into Luma always results in a free half-charged f-smash, and a dodged Fair/Uair is very easily punishable with a sweetspot Dair. Playing an aggressive but careful falcon is key Against RosaLuma.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

A buddy of mine is a decent rose player. The trick is that your best approach is to come at them diagonally, either from above, usually below. That puts you between rose and luma, and from there you're either going to want to be as aggressive on rose as possible, or kill luma, then be as aggressive on rose as possible. Don't let her charge luma up, or if you do, rush in the instant you realize what's happening. The main attack you're trying to avoid in a Rose matchup is Dair.

 

[Warlock*G]

Here is my contribution:

Spoiler

Falcon vs Rosalina MU: tips for Falcon players

When:

Falcon is on the ground + Rosie and Luma are on the ground and close together:
Here, any attacks that can hit them both at the same time or quickly go through Luma will work wonders. Gentleman, Falcon kick and running A come to mind among other attacks, but beware the timing! If you miss, you'll be (of course) wide open. And keep it varied! Show Rosalina more than 2 of your moves.

Falcon is on the ground + Rosie and Luma are on the ground and far apart:
At this point, it's all a matter of either:
- killing Luma with an attack that won't leave you open (depends on your distance vis-à-vis Rosie; judge and act accordingly)
or
- getting past that little star and in Rosie's face quickly before she can call it back (maybe for a running grab and d-throw...).
Also note that, whenever Rosalina is on the ground, occasional, well-timed and well-spaced f-smashes are your best friends. Land them and watch Rosie fly.

Falcon is on the ground + Rosie and Luma are in the air:
Time to try and juggle Rosie with uairs! However, note that it is preferable to approach Rosie, not from the straight bottom, but diagonnally -- either down to her left or down to her right. That way, her aerials won't hit you as easily.

Falcon is in the air:
This is not a good position to be in. From above, none of your aerials beat Rosalina's attacks. The best thing to do here is to dodge and/or be unpredictable with your landing.
(If you're really close to Rosalina, an aerial Falcon kick can work and will get both Rosie and Luma if they're not separated; however, a Falcon kick from afar is so predictable it's not even funny; don't do it).

-------
I would like to thank Parcheesy for having Falcon vs Rosalina bouts with me.

 

[BigLord]

Great post, Warlock! That will be very useful.

I would like to add that Rosa&Luma has been nerfed as of the most recent update. Luma can no longer do anything while Rosalina is being grabbed.

That's a fair nerf, IMO (Rosa&Luma is still very good, regardless), and now we get our varied grab game back!

 

[Warlock*G]

[...]I would like to add that Rosa&Luma has been nerfed as of the most recent update. Luma can no longer do anything while Rosalina is being grabbed.[...]

This has been disconfirmed. However, confirmed changes are:

Spoiler

EARLY NAIR DAMAGE : 6% ⇒ 5%
LATE NAIR DAMAGE : 10% ⇒ 7.5%
FAIR (1% HITS) KNOCKBACK GROWTH : 20/35 ⇒ 55
FAIR (4% HIT) KNOCKBACK GROWTH : 60 ⇒ 50
FSMASH BASE KNOCKBACK : 115 ⇒ 111
USMASH BASE KNOCKBACK : 100 ⇒ 90
FTHROW BASE KNOCKBACK : 85 ⇒ 76
LUMA RESPAWN : 8.9 seconds ⇒ 12.5 seconds
LUMA RECALL : Returns to Rosalina faster
LUMA SHOT : Uncharged and lightly charged Luma Shot has slightly less distance
NAIR : Hitboxes cleaned up
DTILT : Hits 1 frame later and hitboxes reduced slightly
DSMASH : Ending lag increased
GRAB : Whiff animation ending lag increased​

- Upsmash Knockback decreased (147->135)
- Fsmash Knockback slightly decreased (154->149)
- Rosalina's up smash has different knockback, either less in general or simply at a different angle
- Luma can attack while Rosalina is being pummeled, but it cannot attack while a throw animation is in progress.

from 'Community Patch Notes v1.0.4'

 

[BigLord]

Sorry, I stated that based on unconfirmed data. But our grab game is still better now, since we can just dash-grab -> throw immediately. If you're fast, Luma can't do a thing.

 

[abit_rusty]

It's a nice indirect buff, since before that change fthrow was better than dthrow to stuff out luma mashing... but, as we all know, dthrow is our BnB.

 

[Gameboi834]

...I've had like, no problem whatsoever with Rosalumas. Maybe they weren't very skilled or I was lucky or something, but it's been no problem for me.

I tend to just go an all-out assault. I imagine controlling two entities hurts the mind, so I just attack before they even have a chance to react.

 

[AetherStorm]

I imagine controlling two entities hurts the mind

Oh you have no idea. There are times where I try to predict a roll from Luma's POV, and end up missing the really easy punish by Rosalina.