Dealing With Discouraged "Casual" Friends

[Jockmaster]

No she's not. The opponent can pick Sheik too. Equal access to the same brokenness

I don't think anyone is broken, but if they were this would still be an asinine defense of a broken mechanic

 

[mas_torque]

Please no one make a joke about Sheik's fair.

I've seen more than enough of that for a lifetime.

all fairs in love and war

 

[Tee ay eye]

they're not worth playing with, tbh

 

[MountainGoat]

Play doubles with them.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Play P:M with them.

 

[bearsfan092]

Play P:M with them.

Knew this reply would eventually come. Considering we're (or at least I am) trying to train for Melee, this isn't the best option. The shield mechanics do a lot to differentiate the two in my opinion.

 

[Oasys17]

Knew this reply would eventually come. Considering we're (or at least I am) trying to train for Melee, this isn't the best option. The shield mechanics do a lot to differentiate the two in my opinion.

To clarify, specifically shield mechanics, how is it different? :O

 

[phish-it]

No lightshielding.

 

[JKJ]

The shields in P:M also last a bit shorter than Melee shields iirc
I also hate how they gave like everyone a reverse edgegrab on everything. Side-bing off the stage as falco should be death, not a positioning tool.
Silly P:M

 

[Oasys17]

The shields in P:M also last a bit shorter than Melee shields iirc
I also hate how they gave like everyone a reverse edgegrab on everything. Side-bing off the stage as falco should be death, not a positioning tool.
Silly P:M

I feel like I've consistently died with facing the wrong way off the edge, particularly with Marth. That may just be because I'm ass though

 

[JKJ]

If you just run off, you dont grab ledge backwards. But if you up-b as marth facing the wrong way, you can grab ledge.

 

[Oasys17]

I meant on up-b. Do you have to input anything special, or is the magnet range just tiny?

 

[JKJ]

perhaps the magnet range is tiny, but it works quite easily for me. Try to reverse sweetspot like you would with falcon

 

[Oasys17]

Falcon's always felt REALLY easy/intuitive. Almost no one else I've played feels that way I'd have to test it next time I'm able.

 

[JKJ]

Well then, Falcon is your main.
If any character feels really easy/intuitive, I'd say play as them forever.

 

[Oasys17]

Oh, nonono xD, I just meant reverse grabbing the ledge It feels no different from grabbing it forwards. I do LOVE playing falcon for fun though, he's just so manly ~_~ But I don't have enough control with him to actually consider maining him.

 

[Sox]

Not gonna read most of the thread, but I'd ask your friends how they intended to take your stock. if they say "i dunno" or something then you know where to start talking with them about the game. if they say something like "do a ken combo" then you can talk to them at this level. if they say like "put you in position X to make you do move Y and punish with Z" you can talk to them at that level. finding out their mindset now is the way to shape their mindsets going forward. you'll find out what they know, and what they need to learn. Most of the time people get flustered because they don't know how to get better, or how to beat somebody who they aren't inherently better than.

 

[Isprayaxe]

The point about PM is that it will get a lot of casuals to play with you. It don't think it can reallyhurt with the minimal differences, but definitely help more than hurt. It's still more game play

 

[Crusayer]

The reverse grab thing (like from spacies illusion or marth's upB) in PM is something from brawl and they dunno how to fix it iirc. It's not a feature.

 

[RockinRudy]

So a quick bit about myself. I'm a budding Melee player. Still learning a lot. Switched over from Falco to Fox because it was more fun and certain rhythms (primarily the WD) just made more sense to me.

So there's a group of people I started with when I first began Melee. We all agreed that we were gonna train ourselves and each other. We started horribly by doing roll spam, missing L cancels, etc. Then I started doing my homework by learning tech skill and watching videos. I also started playing with others that were a lot better. I've improved a lot, but I still consider myself below average.

However, within the group, I absolutely dominate. I punish their roll spam, rarely blow my L cancels, execute my basic tech stuff (small stuff like waveshine, ledgedash), and combo them to heck. It's all pretty easy since none of them really exert any pressure or DI properly. They all identify themselves as competitive players, but they have a decidedly casual style about it.

This has created a problem. A good chunk of them have become adverse to me playing the game with them. Some quotes from them that have stuck with me:
"Waveshining is the gayest thing in this game, stop it"
"If you're gonna play that way" (unplugs controller after a series of tech chases)
"The way you play isn't any fun"
"I can't beat that."

The last one really bothers me because the guy who said it is thinking about quitting, and that's kind of a common theme in the group. A lot of the guys just are tired of losing (even though they should just focus on getting better instead of the match result). My question is, how would you deal with it? I'm probably just gonna shift over to my other smash groups more, but I wanna "save" these guys from quitting. Any advice?

I stopped reading at "Waveshining is the gayest thing in this game, stop it". If anyone ******* about something in the game and you guys wanted to get better at a serious level then they shouldn't complain. Go on the regional boards and find people who play like you. You will get better and it will be fun even if one or the other is getting thrashed. I know they are your friends and you should continue to be and do other things, however they shouldn't get mad at a game by you getting good.

/thread.

 

[Kully]

I share a similar misfortune.
Of my group of training partners:
-One has quit, saying that "the way you(meaning me) play is not that way I want to play to enjoy the game"
-One has migrated to Project: M after he realized that winning against me is much more feasible in that game (due to it's more balanced/gimmicky cast and my lack of matchup experience in it)
-One has stopped playing his main because he hates losing to me with him
-One has stopped playing and moved to SSFIV:AE (and I picked up the game and now beat him in that too)
-And the last, my brother, who used to be the best (by far) when we were kids, will play with me on occasion, only to rage about how "if he practiced the game he would beat me" and about how "it's funny how you(meaning me) think you're good because you can beat me" and says stuff like "imagine if I practiced, I'd be unstoppable" and "I'd still outplace you at a tournament" and similar bulls**t. Then he usually insults me and calls me a loser for playing this game and calls competitive gaming an illegitimate hobby and says that "If you go to a professional tournament, that's a really poor life choice", and then it's off to bed for him.

And so I have nobody to practice against who is of any challenge to me. I'm pursuing playing with some friends from tournaments in the near future, though. Gotta get something going or I'm going to have Melee withdrawals.
Good luck! I like to think that this is a good representation of how some of my friends (and especially my brother) act when playing me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPPvqgnYBiY

That was exactly my brother until he got into WOW ad ditched Melee.

 

[Zhea]

Honestly, the kind of people you are looking for are rare. Very few people have the mentality of wanting to improve at something that bad, let alone a game. Most would rather quit then have to go through months of grueling losses to catch up. It really sucks when these are the only people you have access to. What I will say is if you think any of them are salvageable, help them. Go on the boards, look up the MU info they are struggling with, teach them the ins and outs, slow the pace of the games down, and give them their props when they improve. This isn't Marvel, this isn't SF, there is a large technical gap to overcome to just be able to play the "Real" game. You could also shorten play sessions, try and have more sessions over the week in smaller chunks, really helps alleviate stress.

A qualifier for the slow down the pace line, this doesn't mean sandbag. Getting beaten by someone who is sandbagging is the worse feeling ever in this game. Even the small victories, getting a WD to ledge hog, or converting a stray hit into a combo feels awful, because you have that nagging feeling if they were trying, you wouldn't have gotten it. What I mean by slowing it down is trying to play more methodical.

 

[rawrimamonster]

The thing that helped my friends get motivated the most was actually letting them win a bit. I'm gonna be extremely straightforward, casuals have a EXTREMELY fragile ego (see for reference: every "tourneyfag vs item user" debate ever) You gotta feed them and nurture them slowly if you want them to stay playing. If smash isn't their first game, or at least their secondary game though they're going to eventually quit anyway. Get them into combo videos and tournaments, show them new things to try to get them excited to play more.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

this is the most important thread ever
#brosb4pros
stay away from the classic quotes " if they dont play smash then theyre nit your friends"
rofl i wish people cared about improving as much as I do but thats just them choosing to be gay
if they want a party game suggest brawl cuz thats kid friendly
melee and smash 64 is a mans game

 

[metalmonstar]

Yeah been there done that. I have actually gotten a couple of people into competitive gaming, but for everyone one person 1 get into it 3 give up. It is just the sad fact that the vast majority of people don't want to play competitively. The worst part is that they want to live in this world where they are good but don't have to compete. You absolutely change that idea when you show them the other side of a game. They realize now that they aren't good. They also realize they don't want do what it takes to get good, but they still want to play the game they love. That is why the execuses and refusing to play with a person comes in. It is because you ruin their fun. You ruin that feeling that they are good. They can't get that back, so they make execuses and regress. It these people that are the most disheartening to run into. You can't do anything for them. They want to have fun, be competitve, and be good all at the same time without the time, effort, and work. They are fence sitters really. You just need to hope one day they realize which side they are on. Are they casual gamers who just want to goof off with friends or are they competitors who want to win and play hard? More than likely they are casual gamers and they just don't want to come to that realization.

I can respect the true casual players. They know who they are. You can four stock them all day but they are still happy because they are having fun enjoying the game. The tricky part is that their enjoyment makes you want to bring them into competitive gaming. They let you know that isnt' their thing. You will quickly find out how that isn't the way they want to play when you start giving tips and advice.

I remember one time, I had this friend who talked smack about how good he was for the longest time. We eventually played and I wrecked him with Roy. He still believe he was good. I convinced him to come to an event with me. G-reg 4 stocked him. I don't think he has played melee since. When you have that narrow view of things it is so shaking to realize the truth. I am really competitive and I hate losing. I have to try really hard to keep an open mind about people being better than me.

This is why you see competitive game companies are dumbing down their games, because gamers like thinking they are the best and don't want to know the truth. They want to play the game their way. Developers don't want to lose sales or potential micro transactions and DLC because players quit after being destroyed.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

When you have that narrow view of things it is so shaking to realize the truth.

can handle the truth

 

[EpixAura]

I understand this problem well. Out of the 3 people I usually play with, only one takes it even remotely seriously, and he usually only plays a few games before getting bored/mad. The other two refuse to play me unless they want to brush up on their skills for a gaming event the next day. However, they love to play against each other.

What I try to do is encourage a rivalry between the last 2, since they're on a similar level of play, and secretly give each of them tips while the other one isn't looking. Unfortunately, they can't meet up all that much.

As for the other one, he's about on par with me, but since I've been playing almost entirely on my main recently, and playing more often, he's kind of falling behind. I think it's mostly a matter of attitude. He's the kind of person who says "we could probably beat them," even though they show more techskill, faster play, and better decision making than us. There's also "we could be that good if we played more often," followed by not playing the game for another week. When he gets 3-4 stocked by someone repeatedly, he just gets discouraged. Getting bodied should be a treasured experience that you should try to learn from.

I don't really know what to do about that guy.

 

[-LzR-]

Getting bodied should be a treasured experience that you should try to learn from.

This, this so much.
Getting bodied is a pretty easy way to learn new stuff and adapt.
Unfortunately I am the kind of a person who gets frustrated when I get bodied so I can't think straight and use the experience to improve. Instead it makes me play much worse.

 

[channlsrfr]

tell them to go fist themselves

This leaves too much to chance. Fist them.

 

[Snu?]

If they get frustrated playing you, offer to take a little bit of time to teach them L-cancelling and wave-dashing! If they accept the offer, I find it only takes roughly 15-20 minutes for my friends to catch on (regarding the solo practicing part anyways).

To show the dramatic effects for both: regarding L-cancelling, a good example to show friends is Link's down air; for wave-dashing use Luigi. Let them try it out with both characters respectively, and when they get the jist of both concepts get them to try it with whichever character they like using best. Show them that both are possible with that character they want to use. Let them practice it solo for a few minutes. I usually cook/clean/do work of some sort in the same room as them while they're doing this so I can give them advice if they ask. OR I GUESS you could tech practice yourself, but that might be really discouraging to your partner. After that's done, play some games against them with a character you're totally uncomfortable with to make the games somewhat even.

NOW after a few weeks, when they start to do both techniques consistently in matches, I'd say it's safe to start switching back to your main. If they don't want to learn the techniques, then they're a lost cause and not worth it. Regardless, you should always seek out players in your area that are better than you if you want to get better. Good luck! Hope it works out.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

Some people just have no interest in competitive Smash.
They obviously don't enjoy playing you, so you should do something else with them and play Melee with other competitive players.
You learn bad habits when you play casuals constantly anyway.

 

[WumpaWolfy]

As someone who has been both the scrubby smash friend and guy who dominates his friends maybe I can offer a bit of a different perspective. Getting competitive for me all started when I met a few guys through a friend who took it pretty seriously. At first they would wreck me pretty badly and it was demoralizing. I thought I was frustrated because I wasn't winning (and I used to be a pretty sore loser) but the truth was that I was frustrated because I felt powerless. When my friends sheik would combo and tech chase me for days I felt like putting my controller down and waiting for my next stock so I could play. It wasn't until he started teaching me about DI'ing, teching, wavedashing etc that I started to realize that at any given time I usually do have a way of influencing the outcome of a combo/chase. Its impossible to overstate the importance of even the illusion of control on ones morale. Once I realized just how much power I had I stopped getting angry even though I still lost every match. I ended up spending the whole summer playing smash until 4am and I loved it.

Teaching me the various options I had weren't the only things my friends did to keep me interested though. You need variety. We would often do sets which were a lot of fun since you would watch and get hyped about your good friends combos, but also would get to play one on one vs people that don't wreck you, which is also important once in a while. They also allow the better players a better opportunity to analyze and act as coaches for their trainees. One example is how I used to tech roll in every single time without realizing it. It never occurred to me that I did until my friend pointed it out to me though, and after I always made a point of being more conscious of and varying my patterns of behaviour. Another important way of shaking things up is 3 or 4 man matches. As casual as they are, they let the better player practice tech skill while the newer players can get some satisfaction and sense of accomplishment through kills. Hell, my friends and I still love 4 man falcon dittos when we start to feel burnt out from 1v1 sets. Teams are great though a bit problematic if it comes down to whoever is with you wins, although 3v1 could work. Random teams can be a fun alternative (mashing colour select) and so can random challenges and smash drinking games.

Ultimately the most important thing you need to teach them is to love smash, because if they love smash then they can endure the countless losses that it takes for most people to improve. Teaching them about the various options available, showing them pro vids, and linking them to many of the great character guides on this site will help motivate them to improve too. The things that I've listed are pretty much the things that my friend did for me (and I for my other friends), and while I'm still a nobody in the community, I've had the pleasure of getting my ass kicked by (and valuable advice from) some of Canada's best players. Your friends may not be the people that will push you to the next level of your game, (seeking out players at your level/at a higher level will always yield better results) but training your friends will help keep you at the top of your game and give you people to share your passion with.

 

[Nkguy01]

Perhaps offer them advice on what they're doing wrong...and practice with them?

 

[Doomolish]

Play really close matches with them. Let win the best of the group so they think they should train to keep winning. That's the best way I found to ignite the "fire" within casual players.

Also, let them know you're not unbeatable by showing them your matches you lose.

In other words, punish their non-competitive attitudes and intensify their competitive attitudes.

EDIT: This is a really valuable post and everyone should read it:

As someone who has been both the scrubby smash friend and guy who dominates his friends maybe I can offer a bit of a different perspective. Getting competitive for me all started when I met a few guys through a friend who took it pretty seriously. At first they would wreck me pretty badly and it was demoralizing. I thought I was frustrated because I wasn't winning...