Deal With It - A Guide to Punishing [WIP]

[Cerealisyummy5]

Lol yes please do. Spent quite a bit of time testing everything....

Also I forgot Sonic. Haha just updated his punishes (a lot of his stuff is surprisingly unsafe on shield).

I don't have Lucas so somebody else is gonna have to test him out for me.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'd love to add to the thread, but I'm torn on what we consider a true punish for the sake of testing. There's some vital information about shields in Smash 4 in this thread and this one. So If you want to Bomb your opponent, you have to wait for those 11 and then 7 frames to expire. If I'm testing to see if Bowser can Bomb Mario's Ftilt, and I hold shield before walking Mario over, I don't have to wait for those 11 frames - making the punish seem much easier. However, in a real match, Mario will not walk up to a shielding Bowser and Ftilt. So naturally the point at which you want Mario to hit Bowser is within those 11 frames but not within the first three or it will be a perfect shield.

Compiling a list of things that Bowser can punish with only the 7 frames of dropping shield is interesting, but you couldn't place much faith in that information. It's unlikely you'll be blocking anything if your shield has been up for at least 11 frames in an actual match.

There's also actual OoS options like jump, dodge roll, spot dodge, Jump-cancelled Usmash/Up B, and shield grab which all ignore the 11 frame rule, but we still suffer blockstun and shield pushback. None of these options are noteworthy punishes for Bowser's case. We don't have a speedy aerial to punish with out of shield jump, and most heavy attacks have enough shield pushback to put us out of grabbing range by the time that comes out.

Powershielding on the other hand is an excellent focus point since the only lag to consider is the 7 frames of putting down shield. Especially with that trick where you crouch to flatten Bowser's hurtbox and deliberately perfect shield aerials and projectiles. Tech of the Week called it Fuzzy Guard, and it's definitely more vital to characters like Kirby and Jigglypuff, but I think we can make use of it too as we crouch walk toward our opponent.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Zapp Branniglenn I believe that a true punish, in the context of this thread at least. Is any attack which will connect before the opponent can shield. Shields are universally the fastest option in the game, so if you're faster than that it's guaranteed.

As for options out of regular shielding vs power shielding. I can't speak for everyone, but my shielded attack to powershield ratio is not 1:1. So I feel that knowing options out of regular shielding is important information. Especially since not every attack can be feasibly powershield punished. (Namely multi-hit attacks.) Also, since punish attempts from regular shields are slower, it means they would work out of powershields anyway. However, because powershielding is faster, there are punishes you can perform in that situation which are impossible otherwise. In short, it's equally important to know your options in either situation.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

@ Zapp Branniglenn I believe that a true punish, in the context of this thread at least. Is any attack which will connect before the opponent can shield. Shields are universally the fastest option in the game, so if you're faster than that it's guaranteed.

As for options out of regular shielding vs power shielding. I can't speak for everyone, but my shielded attack to powershield ratio is not 1:1. So I feel that knowing options out of regular shielding is important information. Especially since not every attack can be feasibly powershield punished. (Namely multi-hit attacks.) Also, since punish attempts from regular shields are slower, it means they would work out of powershields anyway. However, because powershielding is faster, there are punishes you can perform in that situation which are impossible otherwise. In short, it's equally important to know your options in either situation.

I'm most concerned with how inconsistent your punish possibilities are when considering that 11 frame window. Getting hit on frame 4 of your shield gives you less options than getting hit on Frame 9 or as far as 11+, which I'm assuming many of these results are taken from. You can't plan how pre-emptive your shields are, it's just your reactions as a player. If we did say "these results are from the least optimal shielding of the move" you'd still have to take care to test everything frame perfect, which is no fun.

And now that I think on it, Bowser can Bomb just about any non-jab move from the ground if he perfect shields it, so a list for that wouldn't be very intuitive, even if results are consistent.

 

[Jerodak]

I think a list of things uptilt can punish on shield/powershield is a good idea. Since it's possible to use it in that perfect parry O.S and it's huge, relatively fast, and doesn't have that massive blind spot anymore. Could be a solid oos option cover. It'd probably make Bowser's shield even more scary. Since I've noticed a lot of players seem to like using cross ups and fade outs to bait up smash or up b. Then we got this decent ranged move with a big arc, good luck crossing that up!

 

[Corgian]

[Opponent's move - Punish option]


Backslash - DROPKICK

80% sure this one no longer works due to the removal of frames from Backslash.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

80% sure this one no longer works due to the removal of frames from Backslash.

They didn't remove frames, they sped up the startup it takes for Shulk to swing his sword. He lands on the ground and recovers at the same point. It should be more punishable than ever on block.

 

[Corgian]

They didn't remove frames, they sped up the startup it takes for Shulk to swing his sword. He lands on the ground and recovers at the same point. It should be more punishable than ever on block.

Landing is completely unchanged, you're right. I just talked with Tremendo Dude, and he gave me the rundown on the change. Animation was sped up by about 10 frames, but is overall completely the same on landing. I had heard elsewhere that 6 frames of end lag were removed, which is why I thought it wouldn't work anymore.

 

[Big Sean]

I imagine this whole thread needs to be redone in light of 1.11

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

From a reliable source:

Another change I noticed with the new shield mechanics is that the minimum 11 frame shield duration now overlaps with shieldstun instead of being separate. Basically if you messed up your powershield timing you used to get up to 7 extra frames of lag before you can shield drop pre-patch. Now, the difference is pretty much 0 unless you like block a jab right after the powershield window ends. Anything stronger than a jab seems to have the minimum shield duration finish before shieldstun ends.

The removal of this issue is big news for this thread, since blocking a move at frame 4 of Bowser's shield was different than blocking a move after 11 frames of shielding. 7 frames, which made all the difference in what you could conceivably punish with. Now that the 11 frames overlap with shieldstun, anything we DO come up with this in this thread will be more accurate.

But I do have a question. You only mention shieldstun overlapping, but what about Shieldlag? From what I've seen so far of the new shieldstun numbers, a move would have to be a hefty smash attack in order to make as much as 11 frames of shieldstun. But if Shieldlag were part of the overlap, it makes more sense that only jabs would still have an advantage now. Since the average 2% damage jabs tend to deal just 5 frames of shieldlag, and about 4 shieldstun after this update in order to get an advantage of 2 that other moves wouldn't have. Would I be correct in this line of thinking?

 

[Big O]

From a reliable source:



The removal of this issue is big news for this thread, since blocking a move at frame 4 of Bowser's shield was different than blocking a move after 11 frames of shielding. 7 frames, which made all the difference in what you could conceivably punish with. Now that the 11 frames overlap with shieldstun, anything we DO come up with this in this thread will be more accurate.

But I do have a question. You only mention shieldstun overlapping, but what about Shieldlag? From what I've seen so far of the new shieldstun numbers, a move would have to be a hefty smash attack in order to make as much as 11 frames of shieldstun. But if Shieldlag were part of the overlap, it makes more sense that only jabs would still have an advantage now. Since the average 2% damage jabs tend to deal just 5 frames of shieldlag, and about 4 shieldstun after this update in order to get an advantage of 2 that other moves wouldn't have. Would I be correct in this line of thinking?

Ya that's why I figured it was only the shieldstun overlapping with it instead of both. Also, it would only be up to 7 frames of overlap since the first few frames (1-4) lead to powershield, which has it's own properties.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Ya that's why I figured it was only the shieldstun overlapping with it instead of both. Also, it would only be up to 7 frames of overlap since the first few frames (1-4) lead to powershield, which has it's own properties.

I've always been hearing that Power shield is frame 1-3 in this game. But yeah, I goofed and came up with 11 because I dumbly counted the Power Shield frames. So only Shieldstun then? That sounds fair. Since it's a countermeasure for people's new shieldstun numbers which are now overpowering. If a move deals less than 8 frames of shieldstun, and the attacker attacks on frame 4 of the defender's shield, then they gain some extra block advantage.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Played some Bowser today, pretty sure we can remove a lot of DROPKICK's from this list.

Eff this patch lol

 

[MrEh]

We just have to go for super grimy not-a-punish dropkicks instead.

Dropkick after people shield Dtilt 1 and 2? That would be sick if it works out ok.

 

[arcticfox_14]

Sorry to zombie this thread, but I feel like the idea still has merit. I'd love a quick reference of shield/powershield followups for a matchup if I'm waiting around between rounds of a bracket and know what character my next opponent will play.

Is this idea entirely untenable with the shield stun changes, or is it a better time than ever to compile this info if we're presumably done with patches?

 

[Big Sean]

Although the shield stun changes are why this thread stopped, I think the up throw changes essentially killed the thread. The thread was essentially about trying to find bowser bomb punishes since it was our best option to get real damage in if our opponents make a mistake. With the up throw changes no it's not really the case. The real bowser punish guide now goes as follows:

• shield grab
• drop shield turn around standing grab
• boost grab
• pivot grab

Of course it would be nice to finish the guide, but unless you're opponent is between 110% and 130% where both up air and klaw don't work, bowser bomb is kind of a niche tool nowadays as much as it pains me to say.

 

[Jerodak]

To be honest, I still think this guide has merit. While the throw game was substantially buffed, if you're going for upthrow at a percent where you had a free Fsmash or down b that would have K.O'd sooner then you're passing up optimal punishes. That's how I feel anyway, I'd like to know where all my guaranteed forward smashes, Bowser bombs, and back airs are.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yeah, seeing as how block punishing with dash/pivot/boost grab and bowser bomb are so close to the same speed, it really only matters what moves allow you enough time for the grab. Bomb isn't a move you'd like to stale anyway, since a non-fresh Bomb carries some risk of not breaking a full shield when you don't connect the rising hit. And if that move can't guarantee the shield break, what else is it good for?

I posted around in some of the bowser threads and the discord about this in the past, but I did contribute to these charts for block advantage. All you need to do is jot down every character's move where the Advantage (Drop) is -11 or worse, and you can dash grab it after putting down shield. Yes, dash grabs have a startup of 10, but you can't buffer them since dash and grab are two separate actions. A character needs at least their first frame of a dash to play in order to execute a dash grab, thus the startup is 11 if the player is frame perfect. I would instead jot down moves with Advantage (drop) of -14 or worse, just to account for how humans are not frame perfect all of the time, and a three frame leniency seems reasonable for a practiced player.

 

[Jerodak]

Zapp Branniglenn Even accounting for the 1 frame leeway, couldn't we actually look at -9 to -7 depending what the fastest invulnerable option or hitbox is? Since grabs ignore shields anyway, there's actually marginally more room to punish with them. There aren't any frame 1 rolls or spot dodges. There are a few frame 1 attacks though, so that counts too. Of course, this is assuming you can get the frame perfect punish consistently. So it might round out to -11 anyway if you're allowing for the most leeway.

That being said, I still believe that looking for other options is a good idea. I may have mentioned this before, but Ftilt and B-air OOS take the exact same number of frames, so anything you can punish with Ftilt can also be punished with B-air, provided the target isn't squatting or too short. I've been gradually working B-air OOS into my game as well, and it's helped me take a few stocks in crucial moments.

Also for moves that link into other moves, do you have the advantage for linking into those moves on shield? For instance, a character might have a single jab that's -5 on block but then it might be -3 when linking to jab 2 if that makes sense.

In Bowser's case, Dtilt 1 to Dtilt 2 on shield is +0, making it a true blockstring with no gaps.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Zapp Branniglenn Even accounting for the 1 frame leeway, couldn't we actually look at -9 to -7 depending what the fastest invulnerable option or hitbox is? Since grabs ignore shields anyway, there's actually marginally more room to punish with them. There aren't any frame 1 rolls or spot dodges. There are a few frame 1 attacks though, so that counts too. Of course, this is assuming you can get the frame perfect punish consistently. So it might round out to -11 anyway if you're allowing for the most leeway.

That being said, I still believe that looking for other options is a good idea. I may have mentioned this before, but Ftilt and B-air OOS take the exact same number of frames, so anything you can punish with Ftilt can also be punished with B-air, provided the target isn't squatting or too short. I've been gradually working B-air OOS into my game as well, and it's helped me take a few stocks in crucial moments.

Also for moves that link into other moves, do you have the advantage for linking into those moves on shield? For instance, a character might have a single jab that's -5 on block but then it might be -3 when linking to jab 2 if that makes sense.

In Bowser's case, Dtilt 1 to Dtilt 2 on shield is +0, making it a true blockstring with no gaps.

it's a case by case basis with each character. ZSS and Mac have frame 1 jabs that will stuff incoming dash grabs. Apparently Bayonetta's spot and air dodges have frame 1 bat within, and I don't know off the top of my head if that protects against a grab. Several characters have a spot dodges that makes them invulnerable starting on frame 2. Every character has dodge rolls that make them invulnerable on frame 4. So at most, your advantage is only improved by as much as three frames on any block punish depending on their available options.

As for alternative advantage scenarios like jab transitions, you're just going to have to count for yourself. For Bowser's jab 1 +2, it's actually -9 at the frame jab 2 becomes active. Thus any character with a standing grab of 8 or less startup can shieldgrab Bowser in between Jab 1 and 2, assuming neither attacker nor defender hesitates for a single frame. For multihit moves, you look at the gap between hits and then the shieldstun delivered by those hits. Dtilt 2 comes out 10 frames after Dtilt 1, and Dtilt 1 deals 10 frames of shieldstun. Blockstring.