Deal With It - A Guide to Punishing [WIP]

[Hitman JT]

With the dawn of the recent patch, Bowser's most reliable punish option became a liability now that he can potentially lost a match for using it. But fear not, because that just gives us another reason to look into bigger and better punishes so we can continue taking this guy to the next level, right?

............right?

*ahem* Since we're at a risk every time we use Flying Slam now, it's time to look into more creative (and painful) ways to punish certain annoying attacks and potentially take a stock earlier. Note that these are mostly options after regular shielding; if you can powershield then more power to ya, but I won't cover that just yet.

[Opponent's move - Punish option]


Jab - Bowser Bomb in-between jab 2 and 3
Down-tilt - Bowser Bomb


Jab - After jab 2, jab him back (or you can side B, but, yeah...)
Dash attack - DROPKICK (timing is hard)
Down-air - Bowser Bomb (if you're crazy enough to shield the whole thing)


Homing attack - Spotdodge, then DROPKICK / or run away, pivot grab/tilt
Dash attack - DROPKICK


Jab - In-between jab 2 and 3 (or elwind jab rush), roll towards Robin, DROPKICK (or whatever else you want)
Arcfire - If close enough, roll towards Robin on reaction then Bowser Bomb


Dash attack - Bowser Bomb
Jab - Roll in-between jab 2 and 3, or DROPKICK the last hit of the rapid jab
F-smash - Bowser Bomb
D-smash - DROPKICK, Bomb
U-smash - Bomb
D-tilt - Bomb
F-tilt - F-tilt, d-tilt


Monkey Flip - Run away, pivot grab/tilt


Flare Blitz - Dash, up-smash
Back-air - Beat it out with a DROPKICK



Jab 3 - Bowser Bomb
Up-smash - Bomb if close, f-tilt/d-tilt if further away
F-smash - Dash grab or f-tilt/d-tilt
D-smash - F-tilt
Cyclone - DROPKICK or bomb
Dash attack - Bowser Bomb
Green Missile - DROPKICK


Jab - Roll in-between jab 2 and 3, do stuff
F-tilt - F-tilt, d-tilt, Bomb
D-tilt - Jab
F-smash - Bomb, d-tilt, f-tilt
U-smash - Dash grab
D-smash - F-tilt, d-tilt, dash grab
Straight lunge - DROPKIIIICK if fully charged, Bomb if otherwise
Jolt haymaker - DROPKICK
Dash attack - Bomb


Aether - DROPKICK
Quick draw - DROPKICK



Backslash - DROPKICK


Everyone
Ledge attack - Out-of-shield up-smash or Bowser Bomb (just don't kill yourself lol)


If you have more punishes to add then please do. I only have 3DS version so I can't test them alone. Thanks to @ J Jerodak for helping me with some stuff though.

 

[Zigsta]

You can punish Rosalina's jab with fsmash. Also you can fmash Charizard's bair--the fsmash actually gets Bowser down low enough that the bair will miss Bowser completely.

Also for Sonic's dash attack/spin dash, you can always just run away + pivot grab. Works for Diddy's side B too.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

You can punish Rosalina's jab with fsmash. Also you can fmash Charizard's bair--the fsmash actually gets Bowser down low enough that the bair will miss Bowser completely.

Also for Sonic's dash attack/spin dash, you can always just run away + pivot grab. Works for Diddy's side B too.

Pivot grab/tilt is also the quick and dirty way to stuff Capt Ganon's side b and down b.

 

[Hitman JT]

You can punish Rosalina's jab with fsmash.

On block? Her recovery after it seems kind of good-ish

 

[Jerodak]

On block? Her recovery after it seems kind of good-ish

I'm pretty sure all rapid jabs can be Fsmashed OOS, but the timing is tight and they can just hold the jab as long as they want.

Pivot grab/tilt is also the quick and dirty way to stuff Capt Ganon's side b and down b.

pivot smashing works here here too, on the side b as well for both characters.

 

[Zigsta]

On block? Her recovery after it seems kind of good-ish

Yessir, on block!

 

[Ranias]

Most attacks from above - Up Smash (if timed well for invincibility in the first part of it)
Broken shield - fully charged forward smash

 

[MrEh]

Autoguard abuse isn't a punish though. It's just beating stuff outright, which isn't the definition of a punish in a fighting game.

 

[Ranias]

Autoguard abuse isn't a punish though. It's just beating stuff outright, which isn't the definition of a punish in a fighting game.

My bad.

I think that Down Tilt might be one of the best punishes at low percentage, since it can hit twice, and it has minimal lag.
Down Tilt does 25% if it hits twice.
Bowser Bomb does 24% if it hits on the way up and the way down.
Uncharged F-Smash does 23%.

 

[Hitman JT]

Minor update. Mainly looking for stuff we can bomb/dropkick punish to snatch them stocks earlier but anything works. Gonna be labbing it up hard until we get that frame data.

 

[Wrexsoul]

Quick question: With Dropkick, do you mean fsmash or bair?

 

[Anragon]

He means F-smash.

Back Air is aerial Dropkick

 

[Big Sean]

@ J Jerodak and I discovered that sheik's ftilt can be punished by klaw. Not a huge find but I'll take what I can get against sheik

 

[MrEh]

That doesn't sound right.

I'm pretty sure Ftilt isn't -15 on block.

 

[Jerodak]

That doesn't sound right.

I'm pretty sure Ftilt isn't -15 on block.

I just double checked using training mode 1/4th (hold) speed, it's possible to get it guaranteed but you have to be quick, in our tests we also confirmed that if you do a bomb OOS as soon as possible then she will powershield it, meaning that her shield it's only coming out 1-3 frames before she gets hit, so just barely. What this means is that it might be possible to get Bowser bomb out between two ftilts on your shield. I don't know how often shiek tries to pressure shields with her Ftilt, but if you encounter that then you know that the Bowser bomb punish works with the correct timing, and even if they don't like to use Ftilt for shield pressure there's still the question of how quickly shiek could react to the first ftilt having been blocked, I'm pretty sure most shieks will at least do one or two more ftilts before deciding to do something else. So if you learn to anticipate this and time the bomb properly then you could net some pretty surprising K.Os. I'm going to test this out to at least see if it works or not and get back to you on that.

Edit: Yup, Bowser bomb will come out before the second Ftilt can hit you if timed properly.

 

[EarthenPillar]

Flare Blitz - Run cancel, Bowser Bomb

 

[MrEh]

Edit: Yup, Bowser bomb will come out before the second Ftilt can hit you if timed properly.

Man that's pretty insane. Makes me want to test stuff like Yoshi's jab in greater detail.

 

[Jerodak]

Man that's pretty insane. Makes me want to test stuff like Yoshi's jab in greater detail.

If we're talking about absolutely guaranteed options, then I believe it's limited to shield grab, fortress, and side b in those cases, but if we're assuming that Yoshi is just mashing jab, which Yoshi does appear to enjoy doing, then you can get a 10 frame punish out in time, so you could try Dsmash or possibly Ftilt if he's behind you or dtilt if he's in front and at Kill percents. As long as they are trying to go for pressure then it's guaranteed. Bomb's first hit will trade with the jab 1, but it does leave you in an ok position afterwards where you could potentially get a mix-up on Yoshi. When I checked for the bowser bomb vs jab 2 to shield, it powershielded, so it was just barely blocked in time; If there's anything else you'd be interested in knowing then I can look at that too.

 

[Zigsta]

So essentially if we shield a Sheik ftilt, we can get Bowser Bomb out before she can get a second ftilt?

 

[Jerodak]

So essentially if we shield a Sheik ftilt, we can get Bowser Bomb out before she can get a second ftilt?

Yes.

 

[Big Sean]

Should this be pinned or at least Incorporated into the moveset discussion? This is like one of the more important threads on the bowser boards I think.

 

[trombonophone99]

I feel like this project should definitely be kept alive. If we can punish Sheik ftilt spam with BOWSER BOMB, just imagine what else we can accomplish.

When I get home I'm gonna see what we can do about some matchups that I personally feel uncomfortable with--Sheik and Falcon mainly.

Maybe this could be incorporated into the matchup thread?

 

[Cerealisyummy5]

Gonna contribute a bit. Kirby's >smash on block can be punished with raw >smash from Bowser. Blocking Kirby's down smash can also be punished with Bowser Bomb. It'd be nice if more known punishes would pop up, as punishing is a crucial part of Bowser's gameplay.

 

[Big Sean]

Falcon Fsmash and Knee are guaranteed fsmashes on shield.

 

[Jerodak]

I know we haven't found all the oos punish options yet, but I'm wondering If it might be a good idea to start looking at other situations. Such as characters rolling against quick moves like jab 1

 

[Mr. Bones]

Don't forget you can Run up and DROPKICK Flare Blitz on block. Surprised that wasn't listed. Unless you're avoiding punishes out of block.

But if that's fair game, you can DROPKICK Ness's PK Thunder 2(The bit when he launches himself) on block.

You can also DROPKICK the end of Meta Knight's neutral-b.

More to come.

 

[Jerodak]

You can also dropkick default skull bash on block and Link's jab three.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Would you count punishing the start-up of some attacks? Because there's a good few projectile start-ups that you can punish with DA on reaction mid-range.

 

[Jerodak]

Sounds good, post them. Even if he doesn't update, it's still good reference material.

 

[Cerealisyummy5]

You can also dropkick default skull bash on block and Link's jab three.

Link's jab three? Haha goooood **** bro. Gonna try to figure out more punishes now.

 

[Big Sean]

All 3 rosalina smashes can be bowser bombed.

 

[Cerealisyummy5]

Huge ass ****ing list incoming. After some personal lab testing and combining stuff here it is. Some notes are messy as most (not all) were made by me so yeah hopefully you'll understand it. I'll edit the list as I add more to it.

Bowser
-Dash attack can be bowser Bombed.
-F tilt and up tilt can be Bowser Bombed.
-Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed.

Bowser jr
-F and up smash with drop kick.
-Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed (BE QUICK). You CANT Drop kick.
-F tilt and up tilt and be Bowser Bombed.

Charizard
Flare Blitz - Dash, up-smash
Back-air - Beat it out with a DROPKICK
All smashes can be punished by drop kick on block.
All tilts and 3rd jab hit can be bowser bombed.
Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed and drop kicked


Captain Falcon
Falcon Fsmash and Knee are guaranteed fsmashes on shield.
F smash can be drop kicked on block. Down smash cannot it pushes back.
D tilt and up tilt can be Bowser Bombed.
Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed but not dropkicked
Falcon Kick can be Drop Kicked.


Dedede
Down smash, up smash drop kick.
Jab - Bowser Bomb in-between jab 2 and 3
All tilts -Bowser Bomb
Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed

Diddy
F tilt and up tilt can be bowser bombed.
Monkey Flip - Run away, pivot grab/tilt
>smash can be punished with bowser bomb
down smash, both bowser bomb and drop kick.
Dash attack BOWSER BOMB WILL WHIFF. DROPKICK WONT WORK EITHER.

DK
-All tilts EXCEPT down tilt can be bowser bombed. Jab 1 can be bowser bombed if he doesn't go for jab 2. Jab 2 can be bowser bombed.
-Down smash can be punished with drop kick.
-Dash attack can be bowser bombed and dropkicked (might have to turn around)

Doc
-Dash attack cannot be dropkicked.

Dark
-Dash attack cannot be dropkicked


Duck Hunt
-All tilts can be bowser bombed with tight timing.
-F smash with drop kick.
-Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed and drop kicked
-His disco at up close can be Bowser Bombed.

Fox
-Up tilt Bowser Bomb.
-Drop kick for up and down smash
-Bowser bomb for his f smash.
->b for neutral air on block.
-Dash attack be dropkicked but it's tight timing.

Falco
-F and up tilt can be bowser bombed.
-Down and up smash can be drop kicked.
-Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed but not Drop KIcked.

Game and watch
-All tilts can be bowser bombed.
-Down smash is the only one punishable by something big...bowser bomb. Rest is nada.
- >smash and up smash cannot be punished by whirling fortress.
-Dash attack bowser bomb. DROPKICK WILL WHIFF.
-Judgement hammer usually can be Bowser Bombed.

Ganon
-Only down smash (front hit) can be drop kicked. Opt for something else.
-Bowser bomb will WHIFF on down tilt. Every other tilt can be bowser bombed.
-Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed. (Can't be dropkicked).
-Wizard Foot can be Bowser Bombed.

Greninja:
-F smash and down smash with dropkick. Up smash pushes back too much
-Shadow sneak with drop kick.
-F tilt can be bowser bombed
-Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed but not dropkicked.

Ike
-F tilt, down tilt and jab 3 can be bowser bombed.
Aether - DROPKICK
Quick draw - DROPKICK
Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed and Drop Kicked.


Jiggly
-Down smash drop kick. Everything else Bowser Bomb.
-All jabs and tilts are safe from bowser bomb.
-Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed and drop kicked.

Kirby:
-F tilt can be Bowser Bombed
-Dash attack can be bowser bombed but sometimes he'll end up behind you, be aware of this. He cannot be drop kicked.
->smash on block can be punished with raw >smash.
Kirby's down smash can be punished with bowser bomb. (f smash too slow)
Down air can only be punished by command grab.
Flying cutter can be Bowser Bombed close.

Link
-Up tilt can be Bowser Bombed.
-All smashes can be drop kicked.
-Dash attack can be drop kicked.
-Link's jab three can be drop kicked.


Luigi
Jab 3 - Bowser Bomb
All tilts can be Bowser Bombed
Up-smash - Bomb if close, f-tilt/d-tilt if further away
F-smash - Dash grab or f-tilt/d-tilt
D-smash - F-tilt
Cyclone - DROPKICK or bomb
Dash attack - Bowser Bomb or dorp kick (tight timing)
Green Missile - DROPKICK

Littlemac
Every tilt except down tilt can be bowser bombed.
Jab - Roll in-between jab 2 and 3, do stuff
F-tilt - F-tilt, d-tilt, Bomb
D-tilt - Jab
F-smash - Bomb, d-tilt, f-tilt
U-smash - Dash grab
D-smash - F-tilt, d-tilt, dash grab
Straight lunge - DROPKIIIICK if fully charged, Bomb if otherwise
Jolt haymaker - DROPKICK
Dash attack - Bomb (drop kick will whiff)

Lucario:
-Jab 3 and up tilt can be bowser bombed.
-All smashes are punishable by drop kick. Be QUICK with his >smash though it's tight timing. If you can't get it down, go for bowser bomb instead.
-Dash attack can be bowser bombed and drop kicked
-His force palm can be bowser bombed.


Lucina:
-All smashes can be drop kicked.
-Dash attack can be dropkicked.


Mario
-Jab 3 can be bowser bombed.
-F tilt and down tilt can be bowser bombed.
-Down smash be punished with bowser bomb.
->smash can't be punished with bowser bomb or drop kick.
-Up smash is the same thing, can't be punished with either.
-Cape can't be punished by Bowser Bomb whirling fortress will work.
-Dash attack can be bowser bombed and drop kicked (tight timing).

(Perfect Shield)
-Drop kick for >smash and Bowser Bomb.
-Up smash can be punished with Drop Kick.
-Cape can be punished by fire. So it'll work with Bowser Bomb.

Mewtwo
-F smash with Bowser Bomb.
-F tilt and up tilt can be Bowser Bombed.
-Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed but not dropkicked
-Confusion can be Bowser Bombed.


Metaknight
-Last hit of f tilt and up tilt can be bowser bombed.
-Only up smash can be punished by drop kick.
-And yes, drill also cannot be punished by drop kick on block.
-Drill cannot be punished by drop kick on block. Opt for Bowser Bomb.
-You can also DROPKICK the end of Meta Knight's neutral-b.
-Dash attack cannot be Bowser Bombed. The second hit will whiff. Also cannot be dropkicked.

Megaman
-ALL smashes can be punished with drop kick. YES EVEN A FULLY CHARGED SHOT.
-Dash attack can be dropkicked

Marth
-F tilt and up tilt can be bowser bombed.
-Down Smash can be Bowser Bombed
-Dash Attack can be Bowser Bombed and dropkicked.

Ness:
-Down smash and up smash can be punished with Bowser Bomb.
-Only f tilt can be Bowser Bombed
-Dash attack cannot be Bowser Bombed (it's pretty safe)

Olimar
-Down smash bowser bomb
-Up tilt and down tilt can be bowser bombed
-Dash attack cannot be dropkicked. It can be Bowser Bombed but the timing is very strict.

Pac
->Smash cannot be punished by drop kick.
-Down smash can be punished by drop kick and bowser bomb.
-Dash attack can be bowser bombed but it is very strict timing, also he'll sometimes go behind you during the attack...so yeah maybe you just wanna opt for another punish.
-All tilts can be bowser bombed
-Jab 3 can be bowser bombed

(Perfect Shield)
-All smashes is punishable by Drop Kick.

Peach
-Spot dodge her >b and then punish with a backwards dropkick.
-2nd jab, up tilt, f tilt can be bowser bombed.
-DOWN TILT CANNOT BE BOWSER BOMBED.
->smash and down smash can be punished with Bowser Bomb if close.
-Dash attack can be bowser bombed and dropkicked (tight timing).

(Perfect Shield)
-All smashes are punishable with drop kick.

Palutena
-All Smashes can be punished with Drop Kick.
-Down tilt and third hit of f tilt can be bowser bombed.
-Her projectile can't be Bowser Bombed, try something else.
-Dash attack can be dropkicked.

Pit:
-All Smashes can be dropkicked on block.
-All tilts can be bowser bombed.
-Bowser Bomb will WHIFF on Pit's >b. Do Drop Kick.
-Dropkick will whiff on dash attack.

Pikachu
-Skullbash on block.
-F and up tilt can be bowser bombed.
-All smashes can be dropkicked.
-Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed and Drop Kicked.


Rosalina
Dash attack - Bowser Bomb
Jab - Roll in-between jab 2 and 3, or DROPKICK the last hit of the rapid jab
F-smash - Bowser Bomb
D-smash - DROPKICK, Bomb
U-smash - Bomb
D-tilt - Bomb
F-tilt - F-tilt, d-tilt

Robin
All smashes can be drop kicked.
-Dash attack can be dropkicked.
F tilt and up tilt can be bowser bombed.
Jab - In-between jab 2 and 3 (or elwind jab rush), roll towards Robin, DROPKICK (or whatever else you want)
Arcfire - If close enough, roll towards Robin on reaction then Bowser Bomb

ROB
-All smashes can be punished by drop kick.
-Up tilt and f tilt can be bowser bombed.
-Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed but not dropkicked.

Ryu
-His neutral air can be bowser bombed.
-All smash attacks can be drop kicked.
-Up tilt and f tilt can be bowser bombed.
-Dash attack can be bowserbombed and dropkicked.

Sonic
Down smash with drop kick
Homing attack - Spotdodge, then DROPKICK / or run away, pivot grab/tilt
Dash attack - DROPKICK
-Jab 3 can be Bowser Bombed
-All tilts can be Bowser Bombed

Shulk
Backslash - DROPKICK
Up and f smash can be dropkicked.
Third jab and all tilts can be Bowser Bombed.
Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed and dropkicked

Shiek
-Bowser bomb in between her f tilts
-Down and up smash with drop kick.
-Dash attack can be dropkicked.

Samus
-All smashes can be dropkicked. (tight timing on her up smash).
-All tilts can be bowser bombed (be quick on some).
-Dash attack cant be dropkicked.

Toon Link
-Drop kick both f smash and down smash on block. Dash grab for up smash.
-F tilt (BE QUICK) can be bowser bombed.
-Safe, even from a Jab after a blocked boomerang.
-Dash attack can't be dropkicked or bowser bombed.


(Perfect shield)
-Raw drop kick and Bowser Bomb on all smashes.

Villager
-Down smash can be punished with bowser bomb. Everything else is safe even from a jab...
-F tilt and up tilt can be bowser bombed.
-You can spot dodge his grab and drop kick
-You can drop kick his axe.
-Dash attack can be bowser bombed and dropkicked.


(Perfect Shield)
-Raw drop kick everything

Wario
-Jab, all tilts EXCEPT HIS DOWN TILT can be bowser bombed.
-All smashes can be punished with drop kick. Also Bowser bomb EXCEPT his >smash.
-BOWSER BOMB WILL WHIFF ON WARIO'S DASH ATTACK DO A DROP KICK.

WFT
-F tilt and up tilt can be Bowser Bombed.
-All smashes can be dropkicked
-Dash attack can be Bowser Bombed and dropkicked.

Yoshi
Up tilt can be bowser bombed.
Jab - After jab 2, jab him back (or you can side B, but, yeah...)
Dash attack - DROPKICK (timing is hard might have to turn around)
Down-air - Bowser Bomb (if you're crazy enough to shield the whole thing)


Zelda
-None of her smashes can be drop kicked. Pushes you too far for Bowser Bomb ;[ try up b.
-F and up tilt can be bowser bombed.
-Dash attack can be Dropkicked.

ZSS
-F smash with drop kick.
-Jab 2 and all tilts can be bowser bombed.
-Bowser Bomb will whiff on her dash attack.
-Dash attack can be drop kicked

Everyone
Ledge attack - Out-of-shield up-smash or Bowser Bomb (just don't kill yourself lol)

 

[Big Sean]

Not sure where it fits on the list, but just for reference afaik every spot dodged dash grab is bowser bomb-able if you spot dodge early enough. Most dash attacks, even on shield are bowser bombable. It would be good to know exactly which ones though.

 

[Cerealisyummy5]

Not sure where it fits on the list, but just for reference afaik every spot dodged dash grab is bowser bomb-able if you spot dodge early enough. Most dash attacks, even on shield are bowser bombable. It would be good to know exactly which ones though.

Ahh alrighty i'll work on all dash attack punishes. I'll edit as time passes by and will post when it's done for all characters.

 

[Jerodak]

I'm pretty sure zss uptilt can be dropkicked on block. Its pretty laggy. Spotdodged zamus grab should still be dropkickable too, unless the current patch changed that. Her dash attack should also be either dropkickable or bombable depending on spacing. Someone may want to test all of this to be completely certain.

Yoshi dair can be bomb punished on hit if you sdi out in time. You should usually be able to escape if you sdi the opposite direction he is moving. Keep in mind; it's range is less behind him. Might want to test this too.

 

[Big Sean]

@ J Jerodak so you can SDI towards them on hit and possibly get out? I really have to give that a shot!

 

[Jerodak]

@ J Jerodak so you can SDI towards them on hit and possibly get out? I really have to give that a shot!

well not towards him necessarily, but in the opposite direction of his own D.I. this way you be moving away from each other, making it easier to escape. Then if you get out before you get launched, look for the bomb punish. If you're unsure oh the D.I then you could just pick a side. It's basically a game of matching pennies at that point, so you might as well just "flip the coin" so to speak.

 

[Cerealisyummy5]

Major update yaaaaaaay. Making progress slowly. If anyone else plays Mario i'll probably be posting a punishment list for him as well on the other board.

 

[Hitman JT]

Holy moly O_o

 

[Big Sean]

Man I'm loving this list right now. Imagine one of us getting good enough that we are getting 24% percent punishes for every "safe" tilt for even just the top 5 characters in the current meta. That has the potential of really propelling bowser into a tournament threat I think.