DDD vs. Sonic

[ShadowLink84]

I feel that the matchup is not often discussed mainly because of how uncommon such matches tend to appear.

As such I would like to discuss it in detail because I am unsure of the matchup.

I am of the mind that the matchup is either a slight advantage for Sonic (very slight) to neutral.

Agree or disagree?

Hmm no one has noticed the post yet. Mmk I shall just list a few of the reasons why I think it is so.

Sonic is very capable at comboing DDD. On average a combo done on DDD usually racks up 29~32 damage.
Sonic is also superior in the air. He is faster in his speed and mobility and so is capable of beating DDD in the air. While DDD does have his Bair, it isn't capable of making up for the lack of aerial mobility than DDD has and so it would be dificult for him to land his attacks.

DDD also cannot land his combos very easily and his CG cannot be performed beyond the 2nd throw due to Sonic's ^B so he is forced to use his Ftilt. It is also difficult for him to make use of his waddledees due to sponic's spindash.

There is also the issue of Sonic's spinshot since he can very quickly get behind DDD and attack with a Bair and avoid being punished due to his spring.

DDD's quickest moves tend to be his tilts (since they do not stay out very long and hav a quick startup and low end time). However I have noticed from experience and other matches that Sonic is capable of SHing over the Ftilts and punishing with a Bair.

Of course DDD also has his U tilt which is very quick and powerful but the limited range on the move can be an issue.
Mainly because of Sonic's ability to cancel his dash movement as well as cancel his spincharges .

 

[brawlerbrad91]

meh, a good DDD would just stay on the ground most of the match, jumping for a bair or another aerial if he sees a pattern, also, DDD can CG you and you can't use UpB if the DDD CG's right, at least i don't think so. DDD's ground game is uh, idk 100 times better than Sonics, and he can pretty much stay on the ground the whole game and should, except when you get him in the air via grab or what not. Sonic dies early, so a mindgamed dashattack or fsmash gets him early. DDD completely outranges all of Sonics moves, and all Sonics aerials are Shield grabbable, he doesn't have a really good approach on DDD since shield grab covers most everything. When you dash towards him, he can use dtilt to either make you commit to aerials, or dashing shields which get predictable enough for one grab which will be followed by a CG to the edge and then a myriad of things can happen. Sonic definitely combos DDD when he's in the air, but that's the only advantage i'm seeing for sonic, and he's got more speed in general, but priority is lacking, and range is lacking, not to mention KO moves are obscenely lacking. Also, sonic will have to worry about waddles since he has no projectiles, but these shouldn't be too much of a problem since sonic is very good at evading things

 

[CO18]

Also, Inhale ***** sonic badly.

Plus Bair spam owns him as well.

 

[ShadowLink84]

meh, a good DDD would just stay on the ground most of the match, jumping for a bair or another aerial if he sees a pattern, also, DDD can CG you and you can't use UpB if the DDD CG's right, at least i don't think so.

Actually I am assuming a grounded DDD.
Hence Sonic wou;ld be using his spin shotting, spring drops as well as SH game to poke at DDD.
The CG is broken after the 2nd throw so DDD has to use an Ftilt (which can miss if the timing is off slightly).


DDD's gro

und game is uh, idk 100 times better than Sonics, and he can pretty much stay on the ground the whole game and should, except when you get him in the air via grab or what not.

Not really. Sonic's dash grab actually lets him push through an Ftilt towards DDD allowing him to grab DDD and Dthrow him.
Once that has occurred DDD is going to take roughly 20~32% depending on what Sonic does gauranteed.
His Ftilts and Dtilts are also countered by an SH Bair.
DDD cannot use his U tilt to keep Sonic away aerially due to spring drops and the fact that a homing attack will strike DDD from behind where the Utilt is not covering him.

DDD's ground game is strong, however e has trouble keeping the hedgehog away.
He just doesn't have the attack speed and the moves that do have the attack speed, linger for a moment too long allowing Sonic to punish him.
If it were that DDD's attacks were similar to Marth then the advantage would be pushed to DDD definitelky.
however because many of his attacks linger Sonic is very adept at punishing. Let alone the fact he can cancel any of his approaches instantly.

Sonic dies early, so a mindgamed dashattack or fsmash gets him early.

NO it won't.
For one no Sonic is ever going to get caught by a dash attack.
Mainly because of the ^B and its dodge frames.
Catching sonic with an Fsmash or dash attack is near impossible ebcause they are incredibly slow moves that are tooe asily telegraphed.
Furthermore we cannot factor in mindgames since thats based on the mindset of the user.

DDD completely outranges all of Sonics moves, and all Sonics aerials are Shield grabbable, he doesn't have a really good approach on DDD since shield grab covers most everything.

Woah you are greatly mistake.
A well spaced Bair cannot be punished with a grab.
An SH Fair cannot be grabbed.
Nor can a Uair either so shield grabbing is not going to occur often.
DDD does not out range all of his moves.
The only move that DDD has that does outrange Sonic completely is his Ftilt.

Sonic's Ftilt has greater range than nearly all of DDD moves except for DDD's own Ftilt.
Not only that the attack speed of Sonic is greater than that of DDD hence DDD won't be capable of using those moves to a great extent.

When you dash towards him, he can use dtilt to either make you commit to aerials, or dashing shields which get predictable enough for one grab which will be followed by a CG to the edge and then a myriad of things can happen.

Actually no that is rather untrue.
Sonic can cancel his Dash movement instantly. No sliding movement at all. At which point he can use a delayed spindash/spinshot or homing attack or a stutterstepped Fsmash which has greater range than DDD's Dtilt.

Sonic definitely combos DDD when he's in the air, but that's the only advantage i'm seeing for sonic, and he's got more speed in general, but priority is lacking, and range is lacking, not to mention KO moves are obscenely lacking. Also, sonic will have to worry about waddles since he has no projectiles, but these shouldn't be too much of a problem since sonic is very good at evading things

Sonic also combos DDD on the ground as well.
Uthrow~Usmash is a gauranteed combo up to 46%.
DDD has no combos and really cannot maintain any pressure on Sonic. hence he will take alot more damagethan Sonic will.
The priority is lacking but not the range nor are the kill moves.

Sonic can stutterstep his Fsmash
Use his Dair to semispike (which DDD cannot counter unless he Fairs which is too easily telegraphed)
His Dsmash has a nasty angle which even if it does not kill DDD, means that Sonic will be capable of edge guarding DDD.
Even if that edge guard does not work out DDD is going to take a good amount of damage and his recovery will be hampered.
KOing isn't an issue, Sonic is capable of getting DDD to a percentage where he can be easily killed very quickly.
As I mentioned earlier an average combo from sonic does 20~43% let alone the possible strings that can occur.

DDD has a large amount of KO moves but he has little method of racking up damage and and even more difficult time actually setting up Sonic for a KO.
He would ahve to rely mostly on his Bair and D tilts for KO's something which is difficult considering Sonic's ability to space DDD.

Waddle dees are no issue at all for Sonic.
he doesn't have to evade them either, his spindash goes through even Gordo so DDD has lost a tool which helps him to wall Sonic.

stuff

.
I am just going to ignore you.

 

[Napilopez]

It would be smart for you DeDeDe mains to listen to Shadowlink if you ever play a competent Sonic.

 

[CO18]

What are you talking about ignoring me.

Use inhale, it ***** his spindash and anticipating his approach 75% of the time if he approaches on the ground he'll caught in it because of his speed.

Also sonic should NOT be able to break out of ur cg period.
Again, you have little room for error but if you cg properly he won't be able to escape with up+b.

 

[da K.I.D.]

actually the match id say is about 55-45 in favor of D3
if the D3 is frame perfect with the CG sonic cant get out of it.
i played this match a couple days ago, and no lie, he CGd me from one side of BF to the other, and by the time he was done, there was 2 springs next to each other from the 2 times i springed to get out of it adn he grabbed me anyway. so if you perfect the CG sonic cant get out, but if your timing is even the slightest bit off, hell get out.
also the only reason this is in d3s favor, is because D# is highly resistant to sonics2 main methods of killing. verticle kills and gimp kills. he has four jumps and a monster up b. so its hard to gimp him. and he is the the most resistant character in the game to veritcle kills. other than that its an even match up. because with all the tilting and down throwing D3 does, sonic can pile on the damage just as fast, but his only reliable KO move against D3 is forward smash, and that. 1. isnt all that strong to begin with. 2. its range isnt all THAT great even with a stutter step and 3. it can be punished with a CG. so when 2 very skilled players play. the result will most likely be that every stock sonic will die at120 give or take and D3 wont die till 200 + even though he was most likely at 160-170 when he killed sonic

EDIT: and yes inhale does **** sonic

 

[J-Money]

sonic pretty much needs to get ddd to 200% before using one of his 2 kill moves.

 

[Browny]

sigh... if you dont have anything intelligent to say dont say anything at all

Sonics bair, fsmash and dsmash can all KO fine. they are above average, below average and above average in knockback respectively. (honestly it amazes me people think hes bad because of 3 KO moves. Wolf only has one decent KO move which KO's < 150% regularly, the dsmash. no one thinks he cant kill...)
and daKID, test sonics range when he stutter-steps an fsmash. you'll find it beats Ikes range.

that said id like to see some actual DDD vs good sonic videos, since they are extremely rare.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What are you talking about ignoring me.

Re-read your post.

Use inhale, it ***** his spindash and anticipating his approach 75% of the time if he approaches on the ground he'll caught in it because of his speed.

No he won't.
Soni can cancel his dash movement instantly so as soon as you start inhaling, he can instantly stop his movement and homing attack you or Bair you or spinshot you etc etc.

Or he can use a Usmash which breaks inhale.
Seriously inhale is a crappy move it does not affect Sonic.

Also sonic should NOT be able to break out of ur cg period.
Again, you have little room for error but if you cg properly he won't be able to escape with up+b.

Actually that is untrue.
Once the CG has been used more than once or twice Sonic is capable of escaping the CG due to move degradation.

actually the match id say is about 55-45 in favor of D3
if the D3 is frame perfect with the CG sonic cant get out of it.
i played this match a couple days ago, and no lie, he CGd me from one side of BF to the other, and by the time he was done, there was 2 springs next to each other from the 2 times i springed to get out of it adn he grabbed me anyway. so if you perfect the CG sonic cant get out, but if your timing is even the slightest bit off, hell get out.

The timed that I escape with the spring Sonic never left a spring on the ground.
If you time it right when you ^B the spring is not left on the ground.

also the only reason this is in d3s favor, is because D# is highly resistant to sonics2 main methods of killing. verticle kills and gimp kills. he has four jumps and a monster up b. so its hard to gimp him.

True he can have issues gimping him but at that moment you can use it to continue racking up damage on DDD.

and he is the the most resistant character in the game to veritcle kills. other than that its an even match up. because with all the tilting and down throwing D3 does, sonic can pile on the damage just as fast, but his only reliable KO move against D3 is forward smash, and that. 1. isnt all that strong to begin with. 2. its range isnt all THAT great even with a stutter step and 3. it can be punished with a CG. so when 2 very skilled players play. the result will most likely be that every stock sonic will die at120 give or take and D3 wont die till 200 + even though he was most likely at 160-170 when he killed sonic

Woah that is not correct.
The Dsmash is faster, has good priority and is quite quick with IASA frames at the end.
A stutterstepped Fsmashed if you are doing it right, has range greater than that of Ike's Fsmash.
Do not use a regular stutterstep where you just click backwards.
Its forward then backwards canceling the dash movement.

Bair is actually effective against DDD.
It has good range and power and is a good off stage due to its mostly horizontal knockback.

yeah DDD will survive up to higher percents but once he is at 150% you can kill him very easily with your moves.
Considering you can rack up damage very qiuickly on DDD this should not be a problem.
The main issue would be approaching Something that Sonic does not have issues with since DDD is not like Olimar and is unable to really punish mistakes with a large amount of damage or a kill move.

EDIT: and yes inhale does **** sonic

You should never get inhaled by a DDD.

 

[CO18]

Unless you have the most amazing reflexes in the world. Your not gonna be able to cancel your dash unless u see the inhale from a mile away which a smart DDD is not gonna just sit there and hold B.
Inhale actually has range ya know. you cant just cancel ur dash in front of him and think u wont get sucked in.

And no, move degradation does not allow sonic to get out of a cg. Whatever DDD youre playing against is just not cging properly.

Edit: If you think inhale is a crappy move then you're definitley not playing good DDD's.

 

[SoldierofGOD357]

Very well said ShadowLink. One question though. How do you cancel Sonic's dash movement instantly?

 

[Tyser]

DDD's SCG > Sonic

 

[ShadowLink84]

Unless you have the most amazing reflexes in the world. Your not gonna be able to cancel your dash unless u see the inhale from a mile away which a smart DDD is not gonna just sit there and hold B.
Inhale actually has range ya know. you cant just cancel ur dash in front of him and think u wont get sucked in.

Riiight cause DDD' inhale is instant suction and Sonic cannot instantly cancel his movement with his side B~shield.
You do know that its instant right? And that Sonic can immediately perform whatever move he likes.

Let alone the fact that Sonic's Usmash breaks inhale.

you do not ned amazing reflexes to avoid getting sucked in by something whose range is only slightly greater than a jab and half as fast.
Seriously inhale sucks *** as a method of stopping sonic.


You do not need godly reflexes, you need to be halfway competent.

And no, move degradation does not allow sonic to get out of a cg. Whatever DDD you're playing against is just not cging properly.

I am quite sure he was CGing properly considering I couldn't escape with any other character via ^B.

Edit: If you think inhale is a crappy move then you're definitley not playing good DDD's.

If you think inhale is a good move then you are obviously playing against bad Sonic's.
Not one good Sonic is going to be threatened by inhale.
Its slow, stays out too long and can be broken by an Fsmash, a Usmash.

If inhale was such a good move for stopping approaches, then he wouldn't have issues with fast characters.

It is a bad move, DDD has much better methods for slowing down Sonic, most of which wouldn't place Sonic in a position to drop a spring on DDD's head or would actually work.

 

[Tyser]

^ LOL at this guy and his big long essays full of fail.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If you are going to make a comment make sure you can back up what you say please.
Otherwise you're making your fellow DDD mainers look bad.

If you believe that anything I have said is untrue, you can watch the videos of IOZ, Lucky,Mr. 3000 and they will confirm what I have said. Or you can test it yourself.

Edit: In fact I am just going to start a tally in my sig ^_^

 

[Umby]

^ LOL at this guy and his big long essays full of fail.

Because short, uninformative statements like this always prove a point for the opposition.

 

[brawlerbrad91]

Alright kid, look, I believe the matchup is in favor of DDD for these reasons, DDD can cg, i don't care what you say about upB crap, he can CG you if he SCG's right. Dtilt and inhale, yes inhale, stop any approaches on the ground, and any of his moves where he goes into a ball is easily predictable and shieldable, Bair actually does have good range, my mistake and is probably one of his only approaches that will work. Just the main fact that DDD dies really late, and Sonic dies early is enough to make this match even, although Sonic can rack up damage quickly on DDD WHEN HE'S IN THE AIR, DDD's ground game > sonic's ground game. And DDD's bair is very good, probably outprioritizes most of Sonics aerials. Sonic's dair seems quite punishable to me, and a semi spike isn't going to get the job done, cuz people that have regular spikes usually can't kill DDD until like 100, lower than that, he can just use jump to get out of them, after 100, you have to UpB cancel the meteor tho. DDD's dtilt has very good range, utilt is a good KO move, kills sonic early 100s i'm pretty sure. Sonic will probably get back onto the stage no matter what, but his upB is still punishable.

Matchup 6:4

DDD's favor

kthx

 

[ShadowLink84]

Alright kid,

Okay rule of thumb.

Do not call people over the internet kid.
Especially when
Me=05'er
you=08;er

Most likely I am older than you as well.

now that the annoying part is out of the way lets getinto this part.

look, I believe the matchup is in favor of DDD for these reasons, DDD can cg, i don't care what you say about upB crap, he can CG you if he SCG's right.

So basically it doesn't matter if I tested and managed to ^B out of it it doesn't matter?
I've managed to repeat it time and time again.
The best that DDD can do after the 2nd throw is an Ftilt which WILL hit, but for some reason Sonic can escape the next grab.

Try it yourself. Its a similar issue to Falco's CG.

Dtilt and inhale, yes inhale, stop any approaches on the ground, and any of his moves where he goes into a ball is easily predictable and shieldable,

please learn something about Sonic before you say such thing.
You do know he can easily jump over the opponent while spincharging and that he can spinshot to get behind DDD.
At which oint during a spinshot DDD has to jump and Uair or jump and Bair. Considering Sonic's aerial movement is faster than that fo Yoshi's at that moment that will be rather difficult.
let alone the fact that Sonic can instantly cancel his ball moves or simply change direction.
So no, Dtilt and inhale are not going to stop Sonic on the ground.

Bair actually does have good range, my mistake and is probably one of his only approaches that will work.

DAC?
ASC?
Spinshot?
Dash shield grabbing?
Dash side B cancel?
Fair?

Let alone the fact that a Usmash WILL break inhale 100% of the time.

DDD will have to use his Bair, Ftilt and waddledees to create a wall against Sonic.
The D tilt gets out ranged by Sonic's Ftilt and also clanks with sonic's spincharge/spindash, at which point sonic can easily ^B away and avoid being grabbed or attack by DDD.

Just the main fact that DDD dies really late, and Sonic dies early is enough to make this match even,

Um no. Weight is far from dictating anything like that in such a major fashion.
You also have Pikachu vs Snake .
So no weight alone isn't going to push it toards even so easily.

It is easily DDD can land those kills.
DDD has trouble doing it because the majority of his kill moves are too slow to nail Sonic with Other than the Bair the majority of hi kill moves either lack range or speed.

Sonic of course has issues killing but with the amount of damage he can rack up on DDD, this is not a major issue.

although Sonic can rack up damage quickly on DDD WHEN HE'S IN THE AIR, DDD's ground game > sonic's ground game.

Sonic can also rack up damage on DDD while DDD is on the ground.
Dash shield grab makes it so that if DDD hits him with an F tilt while he dash shield grabs, he ill not be pushed back and be capable of grabbing DDD.
At which point DDD can suffer a good amount of damage from a pummel~Uthrow~Usmash at early percents.

DDD does have a better ground game, but by no means is Sonic going to have great difficulty in approaching him.
DDD just doesn't have the means to punish Sonic and maintain the punishment, nor does he have the means to punish Sonic with a kill move.

And DDD's bair is very good, probably outprioritizes most of Sonics aerials.

Actually it doesn't.
It clashes with the Nair, Fair, Bair.
The Uair breaks the Bair.
Dair is really the only one that DDD can overprioritize.

Sonic's dair seems quite punishable to me,

The lag can be canceled completely at a certain height.
The only way you'll punish Sonic during a Dair is if he lands right in front of you.

and a semi spike isn't going to get the job done,

Actually it is rather effective. The point of the semispike is not necessarily going to be to kill.
The killing part is only the 2nd goal.
1st is to gimp his recovery.

Now even if DDD survives it (which more often than not he wll) his recovery has been hampered and will be forced into using his ^B as a means of recovery. At which point DDD has a high chance of being further punished.

cuz people that have regular spikes usually can't kill DDD until like 100, lower than that, he can just use jump to get out of them after 100, you have to UpB cancel the meteor tho.

Actually you can still jump out of it as a method of canceling it. The window is early.

DDD's dtilt has very good range, utilt is a good KO move, kills sonic early 100s i'm pretty sure. Sonic will probably get back onto the stage no matter what, but his upB is still punishable.

How is his ^B punishable?
Considering that Sonic will be at an early percent he most likely wouldn't even need to use his ^B.
He does have his spinshot, homing attack which will cover enough ground that when he ^B's he can easily just grab the ledge.

Let aone the fact that DDD has little method of keeping Sonic in the air due to the lack of anti air ability.

Matchup 6:4

DDD's favor

kthx

I have to disagree. DDD will have issues landing his killing moves leaving him with the Bair.

Sonic doesn't have great difficulty in approaching DD and once he has, he can rack up damage very quickly as well as maintain he pressure on DDD.

That i why I am doubtful as to DDD having an advantage on Sonic.
DDD has little method of landing the killing blow other than his Bair and U tilt, the U tilt being lesser because of its lack of range.
Nor can DDD keep Sonic away very easily or react once Sonic has gotten in close.

 

[Melfice z]

I thought this was a discussion.. not a debate. people are giving thier opinions and your just denying them left and right lol :D as a general viewpoint yes, 3d would probably beat sonic

 

[Umby]

I'm a Sonic main and I'd have to give it to D3 as well. People seem to be overlooking his utilt.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That depends. I disagree with some of the things people hence I argue against them. (I gotta stop saying hence).
I am not denying what they are saying, rather I am denying the effectiveness of the tactics they mentioned.

DDD can pull off what many people here are saying.
Inhale can stop an approach but how often do you see MK, Snake, ROB or other characters such as Fox being inhaled?
Considering Sonic can stop immediately as soon as he sees inhale being used the threat is minimal. Even more so considering Sonic can break it with his Usmash.

DDD can create a wall, but using the Dtilt is rather ineffective since the range isn't greater than the Ftilt and the hitbox is not as good.

Yes DDD can kill Sonic early, but while he can do it actually accomplishing it can be rather difficult.
Mainly because of Sonic's ability to avoid being pressured too greatly and his ability toe scape a situation that is difficult.

DDD doesn't have the same tools as Peach who can maintain pressure and combat both his ground and aerial game as well as dealing with Sonic's pressure game when he has the advantage.

DDD can deal with Sonic;s ground game but he has issues dealing with Sonic's aerial game.
Considering Sonic can mix up his ground work with his aerial game very quickly it can be difficult.
Similar to how when DDD faces MK he has issues with MK's aerial game even though he beats out MK ground wise.

While DDD can doone thing or another, the ability to put it to use differs.

It is why I haven't mentioned a few other things concerning Sonic since they tend to be rather larg ein risk with minimal reward, or DDD has a method of getting around them.

its why Sonic cannot approach DDD with his spindash or charges and has to stick with dash shield grabs.
Or why Sonic cannot use his SH Nairs or risk using a spinshot~Dair to poke at DDD.
Or try to pursue DDD with his Uairs after putting DDD in the air.

yeah he can do it but DDD can and more often than not will break those attempts and punish Sonic.

Teh Umby I touched on it earlier. The U tilt is a very powerful move, quick but it lacks range and its difficult to catch Sonic with it due to Sonic's aerial mobility. Whenever I faced a DDD I get KO'ed mostly from Bairs or a Fair since the speed difference is not as great and it has superior range.

*shrug*

I do agree that if it comes down to it DDD most likely doe shave an advantage, but I don't think it is a great one.

 

[da K.I.D.]

shadowlink is correct in most of the things that he is saying but i do disagree with some things.

the info that you are giving me indicates to me that you truly have not played any D3 mainers that are equal to or better than you in skill. the CG point i will give you because it sounds like you really tested it and that i was doing it wrong. also you brought up a good point about down smash and back air as killing tools. even thought that dosnt really apply to me because my game is very heavy on the back airs

but i must say i really believe that you are wrong in the inhale case. that move has a very big unseen effect box. even if you were to see coming at the last second and side b cancel it, theres a good chance that the move will already have started moving you toward him at that point and trying to side b shield and than jump/attack will not happen fast enough to avoid it. also, i dont know if its super armor or the trading hits property of grabs but inhale has it. and because of that up smash will not break it. ive done it and all that happens is that he takes like 3 damage and i take like 10 from the starshot.

also, i am quite sure that D3s back air will beat out alot of sonics air game. as weird as it is, its actually faster than n-air and back air and has more range than f-air, it lingers for way longer than it should and even hitting at the end of the move has nasty knock back.
also, even though sonic doesnt have many issues approaching, he still always has to be on his spacing game tight because D3 has a more range on his grab than (I believe) anyone in the cast and he will be able to grab, sheild grab, pivot grab, and pivot grab OOS so CG's are always an issue. the good thing is that if he down throws off the ledge there really isnt any thing he can do after that except spam side b.
i cant believe im saying this but i think you are slightly underestimating D3 in this match. its still close. but its definitely in D3s favor IM honest and HO

 

[cutter]

Shadowlink, it is quite silly to bring up join dates. Does it matter if someone just joined yesterday but they can bring up solid arguments? Yes, I did join in '08, but I've lurked for about a year and half now. Join dates and post count are 100% irrelevant. The only thing that matters are the arguments at hand. They do not care about aesthetic values like join dates/postcount.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its not impossible to beat D3 with sonic, its not even uncommon, but the match is in D3s corner, i think

and btw...

/agree with cutter.
that was slightly immature

 

[ShadowLink84]

but i must say i really believe that you are wrong in the inhale case. that move has a very big unseen effect box. even if you were to see coming at the last second and side b cancel it, theres a good chance that the move will already have started moving you toward him at that point and trying to side b shield and than jump/attack will not happen fast enough to avoid it. also, i dont know if its super armor or the trading hits property of grabs but inhale has it. and because of that up smash will not break it. ive done it and all that happens is that he takes like 3 damage and i take like 10 from the starshot.

Most likely its probably because I play a bit more defensive against DDD's since I don't get caught up by inhale very often.
I am unsure though but can't you dodge away from DD when it begins to pull you in.

I am quite sure the Usmash breaks it. That or its hen you DAC because I've managed to break DDD's inhale the majority of the time that I used it.
It appears to work towards the beginning so you can probably break it with greater success by using a DAC.
probably because fo the disjointed hitboxes.

also, i am quite sure that D3s back air will beat out alot of sonics air game. as weird as it is, its actually faster than n-air and back air and has more range than f-air, it lingers for way longer than it should and even hitting at the end of the move has nasty knock back.
also, even though sonic doesnt have many issues approaching, he still always has to be on his spacing game tight because D3 has a more range on his grab than (I believe) anyone in the cast and he will be able to grab, sheild grab, pivot grab, and pivot grab OOS so CG's are always an issue. the good thing is that if he down throws off the ledge there really isnt any thing he can do after that except spam side b.
i cant believe im saying this but i think you are slightly underestimating D3 in this match. its still close. but its definitely in D3s favor IM honest and HO

Hmm, I probably am underestimated DDD but I am quite sure on what i ahve been saying concerning his approaching ability.
As I said earlier DDD most likely does have an advantage, but I don't think its for the reasons stated.

I think its more from his tilts and Bair that allow him to bring Sonic up to the point where he can kill him. But he can have an issue killing him since DDD doesn't have as many methods as Peach in placing him in a position for a kill.

If it were that he was more like DK and had faster killing moves besides the Bair and U tilt, he would be a bigger threat IMO and truly warrant having an advantage. However from what I have seen and experienced I just don't see DDD having anything that would warrant beyond the 60:40 range

stuff

Actually that wasn't the point of it.The point of it is that I am probably not a kid.
IMmature thing to pick at but its a pet peeve of mine.

Edit: And I say stuff since I don't really have something to really respond to what you have said directly since I am not trying to refute it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its funny how we are coming to the same conclusions by such different means, i still dont think that his tilts are all that bad, and you still dont think inhale is all that bad. i think thats just the discrepacies in our 2 playstyles.. but w/e yah i would say 45-55 D3

and rofl at him actually keeping a tally.
that count might go up faster than your post count

 

[ShadowLink84]

I know I had made it for a good laugh.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sonic's problem is that D3 is going to survive forever near 200% since he's heavy, and his recovery is good. If Sonic wants to win this matchup, he has to know his kill percents or risk being screwed by diminishing returns. Where on the other hand DDD mainly just has to wait until 100% or so for a U-tilt kill.

DDD is also like....a lot better at dealing damage than Sonic. Chaingrab -> 16% B-throw. Not to mention he can spam projectiles and camp with his other two tilts.

Otherwise D3 is easy to juggle in general, meaning if Sonic can get him in the air, he has a chance to have control in the matchup.

 

[Browny]

where the hell do people get these 200% numbers from. sonics smashes and bair ARE NOT weak, they are just slow on start up, thats it.

eh ill prove it

16/39 characters have more powerful dsmashes
23/39 sharcaters have stronger fsmash (in this case, ZSS sideb)
13/39 characters have stronger fair, nair or bair finishers

 

[CO18]

It doesn't make any sense when you say Sonic's upsmash can cancel inhale.

Inhale's range is 3 lengths of sonic's body, please tell me how it's gonna break it when his upsmash has verrry little horizontal range. You couldnt even touch him.

With that being said, once again. Sonic can't escape Dedede's chaingrab. There is very little room for error when cging sonic because of his up+b. The reason why you can't escape with up+b with other characters is mainly because it's not at difficult to cg them at all and you would have to be extremely bad at cging to let other characters escape via ^B with the exception of Marth and pit.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It doesn't make any sense when you say Sonic's upsmash can cancel inhale.

Inhale's range is 3 lengths of sonic's body, please tell me how it's gonna break it when his upsmash has verrry little horizontal range. You couldnt even touch him.

Using a hypehn smash or DAC Sonic is placed within range to hit DDD.
He has disjointed hitboxes that extend from his body so he has a larger amount of range to his Usmash than it appears.

Until he gets out of ball form (from the jumping to the ball form) he cannot be inhaled.
So when DDD inhales he cannot suck up Sonic for and Sonic is within range to hit him.

Sonic does slide far during a hypen smash and even further during the DAC.

With that being said, once again. Sonic can't escape Dedede's chaingrab.

You know it gets rather annoying to repeat myself.
you can do it after the 2nd throw.
I have done it repeatedly an Dakid has also stated being able to do an ^B during the CG (though his was grounded which leads me to believe he probably did it a little later)

There is very little room for error when cging sonic because of his up+b. The reason why you can't escape with up+b with other characters is mainly because it's not at difficult to cg them at all and you would have to be extremely bad at cging to let other characters escape via ^B with the exception of Marth and pit.

You do know that Sonic's ^B is as fast as Marth's ^B with more invincibility frames right?

Sonic can escape the CG, as I said if you do not believe me go and attemptit yourself and you''ll find you will escape after the 2nd to 3rd throw.

Sonic's problem is that D3 is going to survive forever near 200% since he's heavy, and his recovery is good.

No. DDD dies earlier than 200% from Sonic's strongest moves so I do not know where people get such an idea for DDD to live up to such high percents.

If Sonic wants to win this matchup, he has to know his kill percents or risk being screwed by diminishing returns. Where on the other hand DDD mainly just has to wait until 100% or so for a U-tilt kill.

And pray tell how easy is it going to be for DDD to land the Utilt/Bair kills he needs?

DDD is also like....a lot better at dealing damage than Sonic. Chaingrab -> 16% B-throw. Not to mention he can spam projectiles and camp with his other two tilts.

you must seriously be joking.
Sonic has far more methods of dealing damage than DDD who typically relies on his throws to rack up damage.
Sonic's ASC combo done PERFECTLY can deal chunk of 43% damage. Far superior to anything DDD can do to Sonic.
On average a combo from Sonic onto DDD WILL deal from 26~32% damage.
Because of DDD's heavy weight he can continue doing such combos close to roughly 110%.
Even then he still has various strings and poking ability.

Now as for camping.
No. DDD cannot spam his projectiles. Sonic would smash through them and promptly punish DDD.
A well timed side B will go through Gordo so no, DDD cannot camp Sonic.
hell Pit cannot camp Sonic and he has a faster, and more versatile projectile.
So the idea of DDD camping Sonic is a joke.

As I mentioned earlier his U tilt lacks range so it isn't going to be a very large threat.
The F tilt is a greater weapon for trying to wall Sonic but that has some vulnerability to it as well. (DAC, Bairs, Spinshot, ASC)

Otherwise D3 is easy to juggle in general, meaning if Sonic can get him in the air, he has a chance to have control in the matchup.

Sonic WILL get DDD into the air, its very easy for him to do so considering many of his moves pop the opponent up.
DDD cannot wall off Sonic without difficulty.

 

[CO18]

Hmm how is a hyphen smash gonna hit Dedede If hes inhaled before he gets to even pull his upsmash off.

Ask any decent Dedede if sonic can escape and they'll tell you no. Once again ur friend or whoever youre playing against cant cg.

I know sonic's ^B is as fast as Marth's and guess what Marth can't escape too if the DDD cgs perfectly plus Marth is Harder to cg because he slides farther after a down throw than Sonic.

Unless all of my friends and sonic players I play at tournaments are so terrible at pressing ^B in addition to all of the sonics other DDD players play who are telling you can't escape are terrible at pressing ^B as well you're wrong.

 

[Umby]

Here to confirm that Hyphen smash works vs Inhale.

edit: Just to make sure everyone understands, the hitbox has to already be out. If you're testing this and getting swallowed, you're obviously performing the move too late.

 

[CO18]

Here to confirm that Hyphen smash works vs Inhale.

edit: Just to make sure everyone understands, the hitbox has to already be out. If you're testing this and getting swallowed, you're obviously performing the move too late.

Yeah I just noticed that after trying it again but still the problem is that no smart Dedede player is going to be sitting there holding b and you have to hyphen smash significantly before you reach Dedede in addition to Inhale having Super Armor frames as it starts up.

Edit: Also it's Dedede's inhale that sort of pulls sonic a little bit to be able to succesfully do the hyphen smash which wouldn't really work if Dedede just begins the inhale right before sonic approaches him as he should.

 

[Taiki]

So as opposed to shooting down any method we bring up of fighting sonic, what exactly do you advise us to do aganist sonic's in this matchup? If camping is out, cging sonic to edgeguard is apparently out of the question with spring after the second d-throw, what are we left with spamming smashes and bairs and prayer? I personally have only encountered 1 good sonic player and I only managed to land kills with checkmated side-smashes after he used his up-b until then it seemed 1 sided because my f-tilt and waddle dee toss turned into bait for punishing and i got comboed every approach because dedede is straight-up not fast.

 

[JiangWei23]

and he is the the most resistant character in the game to veritcle kills.

Really? I thought Dedede was of the "puffball" type, along with Kirby and Meta Knight, which means that they're considered lighter in terms of a vertical kill and thus easier to land one. Dedede doesn't seem like it, but I could have sworn I heard somewhere it's a better idea to kill him vertically than horizontally. Is this just a rumor?

 

[Taiki]

King Dedede is one of the top 3 fattest (in terms of weight) characters in the game, attempting to kill him vertically should only be tried as a last resort

 

[Umby]

Yeah I just noticed that after trying it again but still the problem is that no smart Dedede player is going to be sitting there holding b and you have to hyphen smash significantly before you reach Dedede in addition to Inhale having Super Armor frames as it starts up.

Edit: Also it's Dedede's inhale that sort of pulls sonic a little bit to be able to succesfully do the hyphen smash which wouldn't really work if Dedede just begins the inhale right before sonic approaches him as he should.

If hyphen smash is activated appropriately, it'd still probably be in range of hitting DDD. As far as having enough distance to get the appropriate sliding distance, assuming D3 starts up inhale, Sonic wouldn't need THAT much distance. Not to mention he can still turn to DAC which pretty much gives you all the distance you need upon start up.

As far as D3 having SA frames on start up, Sonic's usmash duration surpasses the length of those frames, and though I don't have a solid method of testing it (and due to my lack of knowledge about D3's Inhale hitbox), I would believe that Sonic's position in the air when he performs usmash would avoid Inhale's hitbox during those frames, and continue to attack afterwards.

While I'm not completely sure these maneuvers counter Inhale 100% (there are situational factors, of course) it is an extremely good way to hinder effective use of it to stop Sonic. Furthermore, the original point was that Inhale does not completely **** Sonic's ground approach.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So as opposed to shooting down any method we bring up of fighting sonic, what exactly do you advise us to do against sonic's in this matchup? If camping is out, cging sonic to edgeguard is apparently out of the question with spring after the second d-throw, what are we left with spamming smashes and bairs and prayer? I personally have only encountered 1 good sonic player and I only managed to land kills with checkmated side-smashes after he used his up-b until then it seemed 1 sided because my f-tilt and waddle dee toss turned into bait for punishing and i got comboed every approach because dedede is straight-up not fast.

As I said earlier I am not saying that it cannot be done but that is isn't as EFFECTIVE.

Even if DDD was stuck with only his Bair, Ftilt and U tilt those are still quite effective moves so it isn't as if DDD cannot do anything.
He has his Fair, Uair, Dairs and Bairs.

He has the advantage because what he can do is effective.
What I have shotdon is the idea that Bair walls off Sonic completely, o that inhale is a good move for stopping his approaches. Melee was much faster than Brawl and rarely did anyone get sucked up by Kirby and many of the characters who fought Kirby were slower than Sonic in terms of movement speed.

Yeah I just noticed that after trying it again but still the problem is that no smart Dedede player is going to be sitting there holding b and you have to hyphen smash significantly before you reach Dedede in addition to Inhale having Super Armor frames as it starts up.

They don't have to sit there holding down B.
Sonic can use his DAC.
So the ball form actually goes farther than a normal hyphen smash as well as the total distance traveled by Sonic.

So even if you just start it up the inhale and give it super armor frames (which is rather small) Sonic would already be hitting you.

Edit: Also it's Dedede's inhale that sort of pulls sonic a little bit to be able to succesfully do the hyphen smash which wouldn't really work if Dedede just begins the inhale right before sonic approaches him as he should.

Read the above.

DAC fixes this issue.
Of course the DAC for Sonic is a bit more difficult to pull off than Linkand Sake but is effective against DDD and isn't as narrow in terms of timing as a hyphen smash is.

Ask any decent Dedede if sonic can escape and they'll tell you no. Once again ur friend or whoever youre playing against cant cg.

So you basically assume that the person cannot CG well, even though they have been a DDD main since the beginning.
Riiiight.
I have pulled it off against MULTIPLE DDD's, so it isn't just my friend.

I know sonic's ^B is as fast as Marth's and guess what Marth can't escape too if the DDD cgs perfectly plus Marth is Harder to cg because he slides farther after a down throw than Sonic.

Unless all of my friends and sonic players I play at tournaments are so terrible at pressing ^B in addition to all of the sonics other DDD players play who are telling you can't escape are terrible at pressing ^B as well you're wrong.

Cause I am surely wrong about it when I have done it multiple times and the many DDD's I have played all must really suck at CGing. I have done it multiple times and as notied earlier, Dakid did manage to pull a grounded ^B before being grabbed again.

So most likely its a similar issue to Marth.

The timing for the ^B is stricter than that of Marth and Sonic gets stuck in it for a bit longer than Marth but he can escape from the CG.

I tested it many times myself and tested it against several DDD so I am quite sure about it.


@Taiki: Fall speed affects vertical deaths. Weight affects horizontal death. So I am unsure why DDD dies later than other floaty characters.

Anyways as I said the advantage is still for DDD. he can still use a Dthrow~Dthrow~Ftilt as a method to rack up damage so his throws still are dangerous, they just aren't as dangerous they normally are because of the margin of error for DDD when throwing Sonic.
DDD can use inhale but the DAC'ed Usmash would iscourage that use so he would have to rely on his tilts, Bair and Fair as amethod of trying to wall Sonic. It is effective but once Sonic has gotten to DDD he is going to rack up damage very quickly.