Data on Miis and Mii Tournament Rules

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, one of the top issues I wanted to resolve with this release was how Miis actually work and what we're going to do with them I created four Miis: a min size, a max size, an average size, and one that was vaguely in-between average and max size. I then made them all into non-custom brawlers and did damage tests with their dtilts and dairs.

Average Mii does precisely 8% base damage with dtilt and 13% base damage with dair. Displayed damage always rounds down in this game just like in previous smash games. Here's the data for the other three Miis I made:

Big Mii: Dair: 13, 27, 40, 54, 67, 81, 94, 108, 121, 135, 148
Dtilt: 8, 16, 24, 33, 41, 49, 58, 66, 74, 83, 91, 99, 108, 116, 124
Small Mii: Dair: 12, 24, 37, 49, 62, 74, 87,
Dtilt: 7, 15, 23, 30, 38, 46, 53, 61, 69, 76, 84, 92, 99, 107, 115, 122
MB Mii: Dair: 13, 26, 39, 52, 66, 79, 92, 105, 119, 132, 145
Dtilt: 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, 48, 57

Big Mii Damage Multiplier: 1.04x
Small Mii Damage Multiplier: 0.96x
MB Mii Damage Multiplier: Somewhere inbetween 1.015x and 1.02x (very close but slightly above 1.0175x).

This tells us that Miis do, in fact, operate on a continuous scale. I also observed a very clear running speed difference between the sizes while testing so we have three parameters at least that vary: movement speed, move damage, and weight. There may be more parameters, but before I do more testing on that, let me get to the second important point.

There are six defaultly available Miis you can pick in the Mii Fighter creation by just hitting left from your list of Miis. These default Miis are by my testing all exactly identical to the average Mii (yes, I tested all six), and I recognize how they look as them all being precisely the same Miis that are the system Miis on the Wii U (you can see them in Nintendo Land). That leaves us with the following situation:

-Miis can have arbitrary parameters over some range.
-You can always guarantee a perfectly average Mii, but no other Mii size can be guaranteed without Mii Maker.
-You can't check a Mii's size in-game; you have to go into Mii Maker to check it out.
-3DS users can bring their own, but Wii U tournaments accomodating non-3DS owners won't be able to access Mii Maker without spending tons of time.

If I were entering a tournament with a Mii Fighter (which I might do, gunner is awesome!), I'd always want to be sure my Mii was parameterized precisely how it's supposed to be. With money on the line, I'm not terribly inclined to trust the set-up provider to do it right. If I'm using non-default Mii, I'll need to go into Mii Maker to check it out (if I wanted to use big and the Mii was only 95% of max size, I'd be upset!). That being said, I think the most rational course of action here is to standarize on average Mii. You can use any of the six system Miis which include a fairly diverse array of generic apperances. These Miis have predictable parameters and are very quick to make, and it allows us to very easily allow these three characters.

IMO we need to make this decision very quickly whether we go with my proposal or something else. Serious tournament players are going to start learning the game for serious very quickly, and we owe it to every player who might want to main a Mii Fighter to know precisely what will be allowed. I plan to start working on Mii Gunner as one of my main characters actually, and while for now I'm going to use a system Mii for the gunner, if I'm allowed to use other sizes I'd need to figure out exactly what size is optimal ASAP. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

EDIT: Many good arguments have been raised in favor of allowing free selection of any Mii size, particularly the "staff 3DS" option that could be used to allow non-3DS owners to make a custom Mii to use as needed. I will leave the original post in its current form, but I have been persuaded that I was wrong and that allowing free selection is best.

 

[<π]

Great post. I agree. The one thing that would take TONS of time to do per set up is creating a customized Mii. But the MiiFighters are definitely intersting characters in their own right and people who enjoy them and want to invest time into the move sets should be pushed out the the tournament experience.

 

[shogungari]

This is mostly my inexperience with the competitive level, but is it really necessary to standardize Miis? It seems the difference in damage/speed/weight is so minimal it wouldn't make much difference.

 

[<π]

That isn'the issue as much as the time it would take to set up a custom mii. If you could create a custom mii within the game it wouldn't be as big of an issue for the Wii version but you can't even create a mii within the game you have to go to the mii maker. we are talking an extra 5-10 minutes per set, per mii.

 

[S2]

Whether Mii's need to be standard or not, I think there's debate to be had there. I don't know how strong the differences between Miis are because I haven't tested much. Standardized Miis as one of the six defaults is probably a necessity only if there is a balance issue with players being able to make a best Mii that's overpowered.

As for Mii maker, my vote is most definitely to ban it. The sole reason for this is time. This is going to be a TO's worst nightmare if players are closing Smash down to edit Miis while trying to run a tournament in a timely fashion.

If customized Mii's are allowed then it should be the entrants responsibility to have a 3DS/Amiibo (unsure on Amiibos) for quick import of the character or to use one of the standard Miis.

 

[shogungari]

Wait, you can't just transfer your mii over? I'll shut up then. :x

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Great post @ Amazing Ampharos

An idea I proposed recently was to ban every variation of Mii's except default, min and max size.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Great post @ Amazing Ampharos

An idea I proposed recently was to ban every variation of Mii's except default, min and max size.

My biggest concern with allowing maximum and minimum size Miis is that you can't know if a Mii is *really* max size (or min size) unless you made it yourself. If I go to a tournament with Wii Us set up with "max size" Mii available to pick, how do I know they're really max size? I have to go into Mii Maker to edit the Mii to check, and that's just not practical.

I strongly feel that whatever rules we use have to be fair to all players in the sense that what set-up you get assigned to play on shouldn't have any impact on your ability to win. If even one set-up doesn't have Miis available that I want to use (and I don't think Wii U tournament players being absolutely required to own a 3DS is a good idea), then no one should be able to use that type of Mii. Being able to pick non-default Miis raises further questions about whether the Miis were properly built, and your opponent would have the right to demand evidence your Mii is tournament legal (those mid sizes might be an advantage, and your opponent deserves to know that you're definitely not getting it if everyone can't always have it). As I see it, there's really no way to police non-default Miis, even non-default Miis that are supposed to be average sized Miis. It just seems like a mess to me that is best solved by saying the size defaults are the only Miis that are legal (all of them are gameplay identical since they all map to average); it kinda bucks the idea of the character as an avatar for the player, but it keeps things clean and fast while keeping three characters generally legal.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I got a million miis on my 3DS I'll test this on possible distance and changes of % dealt.

 

[Malex]

I think that if you want to play a non-standard Mii, you will be required to have it on a 3DS. I know it isn't really "fair" to force players to obtain outside merchandise to play the character they want, but any other scenarios are impractical. Having a mii built on your DS eliminates all the troubles associated outside of wanting to design a Mii in between matches.

There are only two reasonable situations in my opinion.

1. Players are allowed to use Miis built before the match starts.
2. Players may only use default.

The main issue here is the time it takes to generate a Mii. As long as people aren't designing them mid match, I don't see a problem.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Question: Is it possible for the system owner to somehow delete the 6 standard Miis and force a set of self-made Miis to be the only ones available? If so then that could present a problem, but otherwise it seems reasonable to simply force everyone to use one of those 6 for the sake of standardization.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Question: Is it possible for the system owner to somehow delete the 6 standard Miis and force a set of self-made Miis to be the only ones available? If so then that could present a problem, but otherwise it seems reasonable to simply force everyone to use one of those 6 for the sake of standardization.

No, this is impossible. You can't access the six system Miis in any way other than picking them in games to do stuff. The game refers to them as Guest A-F, and games that use them and save data per Mii profile on Wii U don't save any data at all if they're picked (like Nintendo Land won't give them stamps). Since they exist in theory to be picked by people who don't have Miis, allowing them to be deleted would defeat their purpose.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

No, this is impossible. You can't access the six system Miis in any way other than picking them in games to do stuff. The game refers to them as Guest A-F, and games that use them and save data per Mii profile on Wii U don't save any data at all if they're picked (like Nintendo Land won't give them stamps). Since they exist in theory to be picked by people who don't have Miis, allowing them to be deleted would defeat their purpose.

That makes sense. I rarely bother with Miis in any context, so I wasn't sure exactly what their purpose was or how they worked.

 

[cptnOlimar]

I'd say the way to go is to only allow people to use the 6 default Miis in tournaments and ban custom Miis. This means small and big Miis would also be banned but the difference between the three types is not significant enough to justify the amount of time it would take to create custom Miis. The 6 default Miis are different enough to work as "skins" as well.
IMO this is the optimal compromise between allowing Miis at tournaments and limiting the amount of time lost through customization.

 

[Malex]

I'd say the way to go is to only allow people to use the 6 default Miis in tournaments and ban custom Miis. This means small and big Miis would also be banned but the difference between the three types is not significant enough to justify the amount of time it would take to create custom Miis. The 6 default Miis are different enough to work as "skins" as well.
IMO this is the optimal compromise between allowing Miis at tournaments and limiting the amount of time lost through customization.

Except that if a custom Mii is being transferred in from a 3DS or from selecting it on the menu, there is no guaranteed way to know that it is the default Mii, or a look alike with different weight. Once again, as long as matches aren't being held up by mii creation (no mii creation mid-match) then players should be able to select what they want.

 

[Overswarm]

You may be able to transfer your mii over via your 3DS, in which case it'd be a moot point.

I think that the 3DS is a good opportunity to see exactly how big an impact these custom miis have; I wouldn't limit the 3DS version for the Wii U any more than I'd say "we can't play on these Wii U stages, they aren't on the 3DS".

 

[Malex]

You may be able to transfer your mii over via your 3DS, in which case it'd be a moot point.

I think that the 3DS is a good opportunity to see exactly how big an impact these custom miis have; I wouldn't limit the 3DS version for the Wii U any more than I'd say "we can't play on these Wii U stages, they aren't on the 3DS".

You definitely can. The Wii U transfer button says you can transfer your characters or use your 3DS as a controller.

The biggest problem is people wanting to "create" a mii. There are two variations to this problem.

1. A mii player without a 3DS who need to create their mii on every system.
2. A mii player who wants to change his stats between games in a match / set.

Unfortunately, while I am normally against forcing players to acquire outside materials to play a game, if you want to play a custom Mii, I see no alternative other than having a 3DS available with your customs on it. In fact, if I were a mii player, I'd be sure to have one. Because there is no way to tell when you open up the custom menu that the XXXX Mii in the custom short cut is the default Mii or a look alike.

So it isn't really the problem of custom miis, but the time to create them.

 

[cptnOlimar]

Except that if a custom Mii is being transferred in from a 3DS or from selecting it on the menu, there is no guaranteed way to know that it is the default Mii, or a look alike with different weight.

That's why I am completely against importing Miis from the 3DS. That way, the Mii selection process is visible on the screen and it can be easily contolled which Miis are selected.

 

[Malex]

That's why I am completely against importing Miis from the 3DS. That way, the Mii selection process is visible on the screen and it can be easily contolled which Miis are selected.

Is there a reason why players can't use nonstandard miis?

 

[cptnOlimar]

Is there a reason why players can't use nonstandard miis?

Well, there are two ways to acquire non-standard Miis, by creating them, which we all agree is too time-consuming, and by importing them from a 3DS.
I personally don't like the 3DS method as well. If creating Miis on the Wii U gets banned the only possibility is importing, it is a disadvantage to players that don't have a 3DS and thus can't play as small/big Miis. I know this is an arguable point, but I still think that if access to specific modifications is granted only through external hardware not everyone has, it shouldn't be allowed.
Another point would be that the weight/height of Miis can't be measured ingame. So people could claim they have a small Mii while in reality it's a big Mii. I don't have the experience to know how much this is recognizable in a battle by others, but if unrecognized it also is a disadvantage to the opponent.
Overall, I wouldn't have a problem with it if 3DS importing would be allowed, because my points arn't the much of a big deal, but they still bug me.

 

[PlayerXIII]

Allow me to suggest this as far as Miis go:

1. Every Wii U setup at a tournament will require small Miis, average Miis and large Miis for all 3 classes;
2. When a player chooses to play a Mii Fighter, they pick the corresponding size category and play the match as normal;
3. If either players feels there is an irregularity with the Mii in-game, either can report this after (and only after) the match and choose to check the Mii Creator for the legality of the Mii.
3.1. Should the Mii be proven illegal, the match is retaken with the same stage, same characters, except for the Mii which will be replaced with a new, legal Mii for the size category the player had originally chosen.
4. You can only call for checking the Mii Creator after the match you have played. If you play another match afterwards, you are NOT allowed to check the Mii from the previous match, forced to consider it legal even if, in the end, it's proven it wasn't. So, let's say you play Match 1 with a Small Mii. You then go onwards to Match 2 with a different Mii, say a Large one. You now can't check the legality of the Small Mii and only the Large one. If you then go to Match 3 with no Mii, you aren't allowed to check any Mii.

The reasoning behind the players only checking if they are suspicious? Simple: speed up things. If every player checks every Mii upon sitting down in front of the setting, we won't be moving along. If only the ones that suspect the Miis in play are illegal do so, it will be a reasonably lower number of players checking the Mii Creator.

The reason you are only allowed to check Miis after a match is also simple: to combat people stopping matches that they are losing, claiming the suspect the Mii in play in order to get a second chance. Player A is losing against Player B, who is using a perfectly legal Mii. Player A though, despite feeling the Mii is legal, calls the match off in order to check the legality of the Mii, stopping the match in the middle of it. By doing so, he will get himself a chance to replay the match that he was losing and possibly snatch away the win.

This same reasoning applies to only being able to check Miis from a match you just played. Player A loses against Player B which used Mii, then wins the second match of the set but ends up losing the third match, giving the victory of the set to Player B. If Player A were to check the Mii now, he could possibly prove it was illegal. However, by checking the very first match of the set after the second or third match and proving the Mii illegal, he could want to redo the set in justice of his unfair defeat in the first match. We don't have the time for this in a tournament. Period. Plus, it could very well be a strategy on Player B's part - a faulty one. Play game 1 against the illegal Mii, knowing it's illegal and losing it, then continuing the whole set before proving the Mii was illegal and redoing the set. Player B will now know everything about Player A - characters, playstyle, etc. and will be able to use that information in his favor while giving Player A false information during the first set by picking characters he is unfamiliar with, only to then come rocking with his mains and using his newly found knowledge to wreck Player A unfairly.

This is my suggestion and, as someone who doesn't even own the game yet (will only get the money next week) and has never been a competitive player before, it is probably a bad one. Feel free to point out flaws or things I didn't explain well seeing as I am not a native speaker and that might have made this a little hard to read. If something proves confusing, I'll explain it better.

 

[SonicZeroX]

One problem I can see from forcing standard Miis is there are more differences than just damage and weight. Actually those are the smallest differences. A heavy Mii only survives a few percent longer than a light one, and the damages differ by a few percent.

What is very different though is speed and range. Short Miis are very quick while Tall Miis have much longer reach. Being short not only increases your movement speed, but also your attack speed which is HUGE. Short Mii Brawlers can actually combo 3 uptilts into each other as a true combo while Tall ones can't combo at all because their attacks are much laggier. It's possible that in the future people will find specific combos or tech that only work with a certain size of Mii.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I have a question.

So, the problem, as I understand it, is that there is potential to have a lot of entrants want to use their own custom Mii character specifically because they may be used to the statistical parameters inherent to the Mii they made on their home Wii U console. Normally, for 3DS tournaments, this isn't an issue, and if the entrant has his or her own 3DS, this issue is also mitigated because there is an in-game option to migrate Mii characters quickly from the 3DS Sm4sh to the Wii U Sm4sh.

However, this problem still occurs when a Mii Fighter entrant does not have a 3DS and must recreate their Mii from scratch at the event. For a 3DS event, that's not a huge deal; they use a loaner system from the TO or event coordinator. For a Wii U event, that's a big problem, because as far as we know, there's no way to transfer Miis from one Wii U to another.

That's the gist of the problem, correct? I haven't missed anything?

So, here are my thoughts on the matter.

On the Vanilla Wii, you could transfer Miis from system to system by saving Mii data to a Wii Remote and importing it directly. I'm not sure if Sakurai will implement that kind of functionality, since honestly, it juts may not be that popular an option, but if he does, then Mii Fighter players without a 3DS could use a dedicated registration setup to create their Miis, then use a marked, dedicated Wii Remote to transfer that Mii to each console, as necessary.

Another option would be to have dedicated Mii Fighter setups. 3 or 4 setups that, if an entrant is up for a match and plays Mii Fighter, they must be assigned to one of thoe 3 or 4 setups. That way, you're drastically reducing the number of setups you need to transfer Miis to / create Miis on. All of the Wii U Mii Fighter entrants would, again, be required to create their Miis before the event begins as part of special registration.

(NOTE: I have used this tactic myself in various events to handle match assignments for disabled or otherwise incapacitated players, and it works for those situations just fine. At our PAX Prime USF4 event, there was a player who required a dedicated setup due to heath reasons, and we didn't run into any problems, either with pacing or with match assignments, and that was a full 64 person bracket with a lot of inexperienced entrants. Same basic concept, just applied to character selection and not physical disability)

A 3rd option would be to have the TO provide a loaner 3DS to the event for the sole purpose of Mii registration. Every Mii Fighter player without a 3DS would be required to make their Mii to specification on the event 3DS during the registration period as part of special registration. Then, any time a Wii U Mii Fighter entrant needs to play, event staff escorts them to the setup and performs the Mii Transfer using the in-game option, circumventing needing to go to Mii Maker on every Wii U. This would also make every setup viable for Mii Fighter players, instead of a dedicated 3 or 4 setups.

No matter which option is viable (depending on how Sm4sh Wii U is designed to handle Mii transfers), all a TO has to do is mark all Mii Fighter players on the bracket (probably with an 'M' next to their name) and keep track of those players during the event. Assuming each transfer only takes a few seconds to a minute, the time consuming part is creating each Mii, which, again, a smart TO will force to player to do during registration, before the event starts, possibly even with dedicated setups at the registration desk.

I honestly don't foresee that big of a problem. For a good TO, this doesn't add any time to the event, or at least adds trivial amounts of time, and for a bad TO, this adds a few minutes per Mii Fighter match (or per round involving Mii Fighters).

 

[Aninymouse]

Posting to say that I agree with @ Amazing Ampharos 's stance. Default-only seems to be the only fair way to do it on WiiU.

Using custom Miis on 3DS doesn't seem like a problem to me, though.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Posting to say that I agree with @ Amazing Ampharos 's stance. Default-only seems to be the only fair way to do it on WiiU.

Using custom Miis on 3DS doesn't seem like a problem to me, though.

Without knowing how the Wii U version's transfer system is designed, we literally cannot say something like that yet. >_> There are plenty of fair ways to handle it that don't even affect event time significantly, depending on how the transfer function works. I just posted about that.

 

[Aninymouse]

Without knowing how the Wii U version's transfer system is designed, we literally cannot say something like that yet. >_> There are plenty of fair ways to handle it that don't even affect event time significantly, depending on how the transfer function works. I just posted about that.

Well, that is a solid point. We haven't seen WiiU in action yet, so we can't know for sure how things will pan out.

I still think custom Miis in the 3DS version shouldn't be a big deal: everyone is brining their own hardware, presumably. If you're playing on "house" 3DS systems due to streaming capabilities, well... that already is breaking the "bring your own controller" rule that Smash and other fighting games have had since forever. And breaking it for the purpose of entertaining people not participating in the theoretical 3DS tournament, I might add.

So yeah. If everyone brings their own hardware, I don't see any problems at all with 3DS custom Miis. The differences between the speed/weight/power are not colossal. Though they do make a difference, a cursory glance at your opponent's Mii should tell you if it's tall or short, which IIRC is the biggest determining factor.

 

[Raijinken]

As much as I think the appeal lies in the customization of appearance more than moveset, I would be fine with using a standard Mii for competition purposes.

 

[Overswarm]

Anyone saying "we should use standard Miis" when there has yet to be any issues of actually using Miis in tournament should be totally fine with someone else telling them "hey, we're banning your character because we don't feel like dealing with it".

 

[TL?]

My recommendation is defaults or no miis at all. Letting the entire spectrum through potentially causes a lot of issues:

1) You need to take a significant amount of time to set up your character. You shouldn't need to bring a 3ds to use your character on the wii-u. Players should be equal at the character select screen regardless of the extra peripherals they bring. This should be obvious. Wasting time is bad.

2) You give people a chance to do some sneaky stuff. What if I have two miis that look the same and are named the same but are slightly different size? What if between matches where I am character locked I switch over to throw my opponent off or to adjust for their change in character? Would you be able to tell? What if there are distracting ways to set your mii's appearance? It's also arguably difficult to play precisely against a character that will pretty much always have a different appearance depending on who is using them.

3) Letting all miis through makes miis ambiguous. I can know for sure how my moves will effect all of the other characters at a given % in a given position. I can know if a combo is reliable on a certain character in the right situation. A mii that is light enough to escape a combo might only be ever so slightly smaller than a mii that won't. Subtle differences can cause significant changes to match. It isn't clear what exactly will work and what won't on a specific mii until after you've tried. If miis of a smaller size can duck under one of my character's attacks and larger miis cannot, I am stuck with trial an error if my opponent's mii visually appears to be a size around the border between those groups.

 

[Overswarm]

I agree with TL?, we should also ban Duck Hunt Dog because his matches take longer. Also everyone should play Little Mac, because Little Mac's matches go faster. Wasting time is bad.

All these theory crafters with all these what-if scenarios, I am wondering if they've actually tried playing with the Miis yet >_>

 

[greatbernard]

IMO, for tournament player, customizing your Mii (outside of the 3 basic types) should not be allowed. It adds too many foreign factors in the game and makes practicing for matchups impossible.

 

[TL?]

I agree with TL?, we should also ban Duck Hunt Dog because his matches take longer. Also everyone should play Little Mac, because Little Mac's matches go faster. Wasting time is bad.

All these theory crafters with all these what-if scenarios, I am wondering if they've actually tried playing with the Miis yet >_>

How do you expect us to have a constructive argument if you're going to be this disingenuous? I have not put any words in your mouth or misrepresented your arguments. The stalling capabilities of characters are kept in check by the actual match timer. Comparing that to setup time is clearly missing the point.

 

[Overswarm]

How do you expect us to have a constructive argument if you're going to be this disingenuous? I have not put any words in your mouth or misrepresented your arguments. The stalling capabilities of characters are kept in check by the actual match timer. Comparing that to setup time is clearly missing the point.

There doesn't need to be a constructive argument. The proposals put forth so far are are all laughable.

Here's the checklist:

• There has yet to be a problem shown
• Any potential problems illustrated have yet to be anything other than minor inconveniences on par with "syncing a wii remote"
• Any and all solutions arbitrarily limit choices and potential for 3 characters in the game

We don't know the basics, let alone the intricacies, of how the Mii Fighters work. The only thing we need to do now is say "hey, make your fighters in advance" and observe.

 

[popo12]

If the issue is that the person playing the Mii should know exactly what their character is capable of, I think it's an issue that applies to customs as a whole, not just Miis. The ability to transfer brand new versions of characters into the game is pretty much unprecedented, and I think decisions to ban should be made very carefully.

We already know that it would be unreasonable for TOs to make sure that all of the custom moves are unlocked, so we're assuming that if they are legal, it is because players will be able to transfer thrm from 3DS rather painlessly. In this situation, I think it is the player's responsibility to ensure that they have their character available. If they don't have a 3DS of their own for the transfer, they should either borrow one or be ready to play with a different loadout. The same applies to Miis. If you're depending on a certain size Mii, it should be your responsibility to make sure you have it or have a backup plan.

That said, if the issue ends up being whether the many size variations of Miis are fair or not, having them be based on the standard Miis is a fine solution. Having standard Miis of other sizes that have to be made is completely unacceptable in this situation though. It puts too much of a burden on TOs and makes it too easy to cheat by using a non-legal size secretly.

 

[Overswarm]

You can transfer custom fighters via a Wii U -- they won't need to have them unlocked.

"If you wish to use custom moves or Miis, you must bring them saved on a 3DS for transfer"

 

[popo12]

You can transfer custom fighters via a Wii U -- they won't need to have them unlocked.

"If you wish to use custom moves or Miis, you must bring them saved on a 3DS for transfer"

That's my point. If the issue is that it's not fair for the person playing the Miis, then it would be silly yo expect Miis to be banned and customs to be legal. If the issue is that variance in Miis causes balance issues, and I think there may be an argument to be made there then forcing players to use guest Miis is really the only solution.

 

[TL?]

That's my point. If the issue is that it's not fair for the person playing the Miis, then it would be silly yo expect Miis to be banned and customs to be legal. If the issue is that variance in Miis causes balance issues, and I think there may be an argument to be made there then forcing players to use guest Miis is really the only solution.

Custom moves for most characters are simply 3 options for each of their 4 special moves. Miis have the same options, but in addition you can change their size which also changes things like their weight, damage, knockback, and movement. A mii's size cannot be changed within the game and would require a transfer from a 3ds or going to the mii maker. Custom moves can easily and quickly be set within the actual game provided they are unlocked.

 

[popo12]

Custom moves for most characters are simply 3 options for each of their 4 special moves. Miis have the same options, but in addition you can change their size which also changes things like their weight, damage, knockback, and movement. A mii's size cannot be changed within the game and would require a transfer from a 3ds or going to the mii maker. Custom moves can easily and quickly be set within the actual game provided they are unlocked.

I feel like there are basically two arguments in this thread right now, and I'm trying to respond to both and it's getting confusing, so let me clarify my points.

1. My understanding of Amazing Ampharos' argument in the OP is that there should be a standard Mii for the benefit of Mii players. Since Miis have differing stats, each Mii will play differently, and Mii players will want to use the stats they are accustomed to. If the player does not have a 3DS to transfer their Mii from, it would take far too long in a tournament setting for them to create their Mii from scratch for every system they play on.

My response to this argument is that if a player depends so heavily on a specific stat spread, they should be responsible for making sure they have access to it. If they do not have a system, owned or borrowed, to transfer their Mii from, they should be prepared to use a different Mii or another character entirely.

I mentioned customs because I don't think that the transfer will unlock the customs permanently on the Wii U when transferred. I should have explained this more instead of assuming that everybody else expected it to work that way, which is my fault. Legal custom moves seem popular, but since they are so difficult to unlock, it would be unreasonable to expect them on every console in a Wii U tourney. If custom moves are legal, then it will be because of transfers. If transfers work the way I expect them to, then it's silly to expect custom moves to be legal (which most people seem to be), but expect custom Miis to be banned because players won't have access to them. If custom Miis are legal and your Mii isn't on the console, you shouldn't be able to create it mid-tournament as much as you shouldn't be able to grind trophy rush for customs mid-tournament. Again, if you want access to custom Miis/special moves, you shouldn't expect the TO to provide them for you. Either bring your own 3DS, arrange to borrow one from a friend, or be prepared to use a different Mii/moveset/character.

2. The other argument in this thread is that Miis should be standardized because the variance in stats makes them too unpredictable. This is a reasonable argument. I haven't run any numbers myself, so I'm not sure how big of a concern the differences between Miis will be, but if it's a problem, using the guests as standard is a good solution, as well as the only viable one. Having standard small/large Miis makes it too easy for people to cheat since those Miis will have to be created, which means they can be edited. Since the guest Miis can't be edited, there's no possibility to use them for cheating. The worst you could do is edit the costume/moveset if those things wind up banned somehow, and then it would be so obvious that it wouldn't matter.

 

[WritersBlah]

The argument that Miis would take too long to create on a Wii U can be very easily remedied with a solution I kinda can't believe nobody's brought up yet. Nintendo actually made it super easy to transfer Miis between Wii Us and 3DSs with QR codes. Just scan it from your smartphone (or heck, a piece of printer paper), and voila, instant Mii transfer. From there, just set him up as a fighter in Smash, and you're good to go. Still takes a bit of extra time, but it's not like you're painstakingly adjusting the Mii's height and weight to be just right for the match. And as for the whole deal of wanting to adjust height and weight BETWEEN matches, I say just ban that notion outright.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Hmm, a lot of fair arguments here about the Miis have been made. Allowing free size selection may be tenable after all. My concern with requiring 3DS transfer was that it would be unfair to non-3DS owners for 3DS owners to have objectively more options (for instance, a Mii Fighter ditto could be played in which it turns out that some odd size has an advantage over the default size, and only one of the players owns a 3DS). However, the simple option for tournaments to just have one "staff" 3DS that can be used to set up Miis that you might want to use would seem to handle this unfairness situation well, and the parallel options of potential Wii Remote transfer and the QR system would seem to help out even more. That line of thinking would seem to remove the main issue with allowing them with free reign given to players over sizes, and we can probably move forward with that as the assumed status quo unless a compelling problem with that comes up later.