Custom Moveset controversy with VGBC

[Kef]

We don't even know of an optimal way to unlocking these. For all I know, to unlock all characters in Melee, the fastest possible time (no AR) is around 6 hours right? That's without counting all the stages that you have to unlock (FD requires all 50 event matches, you guys know that).

Also, like someone already said, we don't even know how fast you can unlock them using the Wii U (possibility of 3DS>WiiU transfer?).

 

[GamerGuy09]

We don't even know of an optimal way to unlocking these. For all I know, to unlock all characters in Melee, the fastest possible time (no AR) is around 6 hours right? That's without counting all the stages that you have to unlock (FD requires all 50 event matches, you guys know that).

Also, like someone already said, we don't even know how fast you can unlock them using the Wii U (possibility of 3DS>WiiU transfer?).

I wish you could just buy them with Coins like the Trophy shop. Then it would be a way simpler way to unlock them.

That's my only complaint.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Alright then. If that's the case then I say no one can play Falco in melee anymore because he takes a while to unlock.

Seriously, This logic makes no sense. If everyone is bringing their own 3DS's, then it's on them to handle unlocks. And as for the wii u, we have no idea how to even get custom moves in that version.

 

[SmashBro99]

Screw them, this CT tournament is hype as hell with custom moves.
If moves are too strong, ban them. I don't see anything TOO strong right now.

This.

The game's new and people are still discovering stuff. Customs moves could be an awesome thing that can be utilized to keep the game fresh and separate it from the others

Instant ban seems really, really premature atm.

 

[Hoser]

Who's Gimr?

My tourneys I plan on hosting will have custom moves, regardless of what any elitist says.

 

[ToadsterOven]

Gimr doesn't even know what he's talking about! -.- Last I checked, you get the majority of custom moves playing through either Classic Mode or Smash Run, both of which take all of 10-12 minutes at most. Second, Clash Tournaments is having a custom moves tourney and its running smoothly. If it was for really early tournaments, then fair enough, but by the time we have our first legitimate tournament on the Wii U with cash prizes, big name smashers, etc (which will be either Apex or EVO 2015) there will be no excuses whatsoever for not having all custom moves unlocked and furthermore, I'm pretty certain you can transfer at least customization stuff over to the Wii U version, so again, NO EXCUSES!

 

[Gidy]

Who's Gimr?

My tourneys I plan on hosting will have custom moves, regardless of what any elitist says.

President of VGBC

 

[SonicZeroX]

Right now we still have no idea how easy or hard it is to unlock custom moves in the Wii U version where this issue actually matters.

The difficulty of unlocking moves in the 3DS version is irrelevant because everyone will have their own copy of the game and will be responsible for unlocking whatever moves they want to use, much like how Pokemon competitors have to raise their own Pokemon.

 

[GamerGuy09]

Who's Gimr?

My tourneys I plan on hosting will have custom moves, regardless of what any elitist says.

The bald tired guy with the beard who runs VGbootcamp.

 

[Hoser]

President of VGBC

I didn't mean it literally. I meant it as in who is he to decide how we play. Should have made that a bit more clear lol.

 

[Scicky]

Weak. Hopefully the community is smarter than this. Custom moves and equipment from the beginning made me think of the DBZ budokai games, those games were fun in there own right but the customization aspect really brought new life to otherwise lackluster fighters and made the whole experience more engaging overall. That's kinda what I'm hoping for in Smash 4.

 

[Kef]

Keep the discussion based on the validity of Custom Moves on the 3DS version in terms of the time it takes to unlock them, no need to disrespect anyone.

Just saying.

 

[GamerGuy09]

I think this is why it won't be a problem. For 3DS tournaments it is up to the players themselves to unlock the special moves, and on the WIi U, you might be able to transfer your file from 3DS to a Wii U temporarily so you have access to your custom moves.

If you don't have a 3DS version of Smash, then you could either deal with it or we could just use the SD card copy method like all tournaments do.

 

[Ffamran]

I could totally see an alternate online mode that does include custom moves if there is demand for it.

I'm talking about an exclusive version for tournament hosts that have everything unlocked so they don't have to unlock everything manual. So, maybe a debug mode that's only available to them or something.

Ultimate Super Smash Bros. for 3DS and Wii U?

Kind of, but that seems more like a later edition of SSB4 that features all the DLC like GOTY editions.

 

[SmashBro99]

I guess Mewtwo is banned from melee, what a stupid reason.

 

[Banjodorf]

Oh please. By the time we start actually running legit tournaments, and especially once the Wii U version is out, which will require only a few consoles, on which the TO could easily make sure all custom moves were unlocked, this would be a complete non-issue.

But then, I'm not exactly a fan of Gimr's judgment in general. But seriously, "time it takes to unlock something" will be completely not relevant as little as 3 months from now. For now? Sure, that's logical, because it's one person per system mostly and one person may not have all of them. But after? Are you ****ing kidding me?

This is a good chance to shake up the metagame. Don't start watering it down day one with uncompromising **** like this.

 

[TheSMASHtyke]

I've been watching VGBC for a huge majority of the whole weekend. I never heard GimR say that while I was watching. What I have heard all weeked are all the other people on the VGBC stream saying "We don't know" when people asked if custom moves would be banned. Less than an hour ago on the stream, a question came in through the chat or twitter about custom moves and the response was still "we don't know". They're hopeful for them, they think collecting them is a little bit of a pain, and they know custom moves have their ups and downs. It'll take some time and experimentation to see if we should be using them or not and they know that. That's why they've made no hard statements outside of the one you claim to have heard.

Unless you can specifically find audio of the stream where they said that, I'm inclined to think you're misquoting them and spreading misinformation.

 

[Gidy]

I've been watching VGBC for a huge majority of the whole weekend. I never heard GimR say that while I was watching. What I have heard all weeked are all the other people on the VGBC stream saying "We don't know" when people asked if custom moves would be banned. Less than an hour ago on the stream, a question came in through the chat or twitter about custom moves and the response was still "we don't know". They're hopeful for them, they think collecting them is a little bit of a pain, and they know custom moves have their ups and downs. It'll take some time and experimentation to see if we should be using them or not and they know that. That's why they've made no hard statements outside of the one you claim to have heard.

Unless you can specifically find audio of the stream where they said that, I'm inclined to think you're misquoting them and spreading misinformation.

I'm pretty sure TKBreezy said "Yo, we gonna do custom movesets for tourneys or nah"
And GimR replied " No, they take too long to unlock"
And nothing further was said past that.

D1 was in the chat preaching about why they should be legal after that.
I'll watch their past broadcasts tomorrow and try to find the audio clip, but bare in mind this is 17 hours of gameplay to go through.

 

[Shaya]

Enough of the "well if that's his logic then LOGIC EVERYTHING ELSE EVER TOO"

Slippery slope arguments are the bane of the universe's existence and you should kill that fallacy from your brains as fast as possible. Also stop the ad hominem towards VGBC/GimR/etc as well.

If you cannot be constructive, then don't post.

Custom moves MAY or MAY NOT become banned. Early tournaments not having custom moves seem like a fair idea considering the extra time it takes and currently unknown definitive knowledge of how to get them all. In the future their balance prospects and the lack of them being available in other formats (online) may result in us structurally deciding that they're more detrimental to tournament/competitive play than having them on.

 

[TheSMASHtyke]

I'm pretty sure TKBreezy said "Yo, we gonna do custom movesets or nah"
And GimR replied " No, they take too long to unlock"
And nothing further was said past that.

D1 was in the chat preaching about why they should be legal after that.

If nothing was said past that, then there's far more evidence of VGBC being optimistic and willing to give custom moves a chance. That's one casual remark on stream vs several times where they've been asked about custom moves on stream and the answer was "we're not sure". It's early, they realize that, and they're trying to make as few declarative statements as possible. I'd say their official stance is like everyone elses: Let's give them a try.

 

[Gidy]

If nothing was said past that, then there's far more evidence of VGBC being optimistic and willing to give custom moves a chance. That's one casual remark on stream vs several times where they've been asked about custom moves on stream and the answer was "we're not sure". It's early, they realize that, and they're trying to make as few declarative statements as possible. I'd say their official stance is like everyone elses: Let's give them a try.

Just for good measure, have they said "we're not sure" tonight?

 

[Jaedrik]

I would support custom movesets. They would be adding alot to competitive in terms of keeping it fresh and making different playstyles variable for different characters.

''takes too long to unlock'' is a very weak response.

It is not a weak response. No one has yet to address the practical issue of the fact that not every set up will have all custom moves. They are randomly unlocked, and a thousand issues will come up with organizing the setups and people's 3DS to make sure all the requirements will be met. Tournaments already take enough time as it is, with limited setups. Until there is found some quick way to unlock all custom moves such as with a hack or exploit.

Thank god GIMR isn't the be all and end all of this. I don't see why cutting one of the games most fantastic features is a good idea. lmao

This is somewhat rude.
Regardless, he and the VGBC crew are hopeful, they are not petulant in their judgement, rather, their demeanor is reserved, and they as in they perceive a real problem.

This is coming from people who primarily host Melee tournaments and the game, Melee, has a character that takes 24 hours to unlock.

Action Replays and save data are easily used and manipulated to unlock all tournament relevant things in an instant. Further, due the random nature of custom moves, they could take just as long if not longer, perhaps. But it seems easy to just go DK and slap the ground a bunch on that one mode where you bet coins.

Everyone, do not be so rash or hasty to judge the folks at VGBC. We all want to see custom moves. Until we reach the necessary mass of reliable setups coming to each tournament with all custom moves unlocked, we may not have them for a while.

 

[TheSMASHtyke]

Just for good measure, have they said "we're not sure" tonight?

They've said it within the last 90 minutes having been asked about custom moves on stream.

 

[Jaedrik]

Alright then. If that's the case then I say no one can play Falco in melee anymore because he takes a while to unlock.

Seriously, This logic makes no sense. If everyone is bringing their own 3DS's, then it's on them to handle unlocks. And as for the wii u, we have no idea how to even get custom moves in that version.

Action Replays and a mass of pre-loaded memory cards are what drives the Melee scene. People don't actually sit down to unlock this stuff the majority of the time.

 

[SmashWolf]

Logic flawed or not, I've got mixed feelings about custom movesets.

There's always clearly better custom moves to be had. It's idealistic and naive to say that's purely subjective. It also unnecesarily messes with the metagame, having to learn 12 instead of 4 special moves on every single character. It's also true that custom moves aren't allowed in online random matches, making them near-pointless to learn.

On the other hand, the variation is a way to keep things fresh, and it can make previously pointless moves viable. I'm looking at FLUDD, Samus' bombs, lots of Megaman's specials, etc. The mixups would be awesome.

In the end, I'm reluctantly joining with the "Allow Custom Movesets" side purely for the sake of it being fun, and giving it the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Jaedrik]

Oh please. By the time we start actually running legit tournaments, and especially once the Wii U version is out, which will require only a few consoles, on which the TO could easily make sure all custom moves were unlocked, this would be a complete non-issue.

But then, I'm not exactly a fan of Gimr's judgment in general. But seriously, "time it takes to unlock something" will be completely not relevant as little as 3 months from now. For now? Sure, that's logical, because it's one person per system mostly and one person may not have all of them. But after? Are you ****ing kidding me?

This is a good chance to shake up the metagame. Don't start watering it down day one with uncompromising **** like this.

You pass judgement on GimR without even knowing his disposition about this. As a moderator and stream watcher of VGBC, they are not being petulant, they are hopeful, and they realize these possibilities. To use wrathful language against ones character is to direct your own mind to hatred, and only serves to blind yourself. It is never just to hate a person or persons.

 

[[TSON]]

What id you could be allowed to watch your opponent pick their moves? For example, there is a rock paper scissors match, and the winner gets to choose the custom moves second. This would happen after they both choose their character. That way, tghere would be no baiting.

This is the 3DS version though, would the winner just choose while the other person hawks over their 3DS to see what they're doing? What about WiFi tourneys?

 

[GamerGuy09]

Logic flawed or not, I've got mixed feelings about custom movesets.

There's always clearly better custom moves to be had. It's idealistic and naive to say that's purely subjective. It also unnecesarily messes with the metagame, having to learn 12 instead of 4 special moves on every single character. It's also true that custom moves aren't allowed in online random matches, making them near-pointless to learn.

On the other hand, the variation is a way to keep things fresh, and it can make previously pointless moves viable. I'm looking at FLUDD, Samus' bombs, lots of Megaman's specials, etc. The mixups would be awesome.

In the end, I'm reluctantly joining with the "Allow Custom Movesets" side purely for the sake of it being fun, and giving it the benefit of the doubt.

I agree with all points really. I don't think it unnecessarily messes with the metagame. I agree that some custom moves are better than the default. But not by much mind you.

However I think a good solution would be a counter pick system is when you lose, you can ban a special move customization. So you can't rely on it.

 

[Gidy]

They've said it within the last 90 minutes having been asked about custom moves on stream.

Interesting. Again, I'll go through last nights broadcast to find the audioclip tomorrow. I'm sure that they've said it, but with all these other remarks you claim to say they have been making it confuses me.

Also, to everyone else. I apologize if it sounds like I'm ripping on VGBC/GImR. I just thought that the decision to do such a thing is ignorant. In no way to I want to start a flamewar against them.

 

[Banjodorf]

You pass judgement on GimR without even knowing his disposition about this. As a moderator and stream watcher of VGBC, they are not being petulant, they are hopeful, and they realize these possibilities. To use wrathful language against ones character is to direct your own mind to hatred, and only serves to blind yourself. It is never just to hate a person or persons.

"Pass judgement" is a little bit melodramatic, don't you think? Well, that and alot of things in those couple of sentences. I don't mean to speak ill of your writing style, but I don't know if such eloquence is really called for on internet forums like this.

However, that's not really the point. Look, I'm well-acquainted with the Smash tourney scene. The problem is that people will take what said "heads of the competitive scene", i.e. top tourney organizers, people like VGBC with tons of followers, will say at face value. I think that in itself is a problem, and they really don't need to say anything on custom moves until we have more experience with the game.

A simple "let's not talk about custom moves until we know more. No comments at this time, c'mon guys." would've made more sense to say. And it would've eliminated the need for this thread entirely.

 

[Malkior7]

that definitely seems unreasonable

 

[Headcrab Jackalope]

VGBC is reading and discussing this thread right now in their Twitch stream.

 

[TerminalMontage]

Yesterday during VGBootCamp's Gimr, the president of VGBC, was asked if custom movesets we're going to be used during tournaments. His response was a no. Why? Not because of them being too overpowered. Not because of them being rejected by the community. They were banned because they take too long to unlock.

Let that set in

Screw that scrublord.

 

[saltybeach]

Are you guys serious right now?

He was asked off-hand if custom moves would be allowed. He off-hand responded that they take so long to unlock he didn't see how they could be allowed.

He wasn't posting an article about his firm stance on no-custom moves. The OP of this thread literally took a a random comment out of a 24hour+ stream and manipulated it to make Gimr be shown in a negative light. IF ANYTHING gimr's response was more of the tone "haha man these moves are so hard to unlock how can we allow them in tournaments".

Anyone jumping on gimr's character in this thread based off of @ Gidy 's uninformed(borderline false) first post should feel disgusted with themselves.

Let me go watch you stream for 24+ hours I bet I could pick out one sentence that if I twist it enough would make you look like a bad guy.

 

[Gidy]

VGBC is reading and discussing this thread right now in their Twitch stream.

What have they said? I just tuned in

 

[Ganreizu]

Wow you guys. VGBC has been disclaimering all weekend that everything including gimr's judgement on custom moves are opinions and here you all are losing your ****.

We still have no clue if custom move unlocks transfer from 3DS to wii u natively or with amiibo or otherwise. There is no way as far as i know to transfer save data from wii u to wii u NEARLY as conveniently as it was for melee, so saying melee took a long time to unlock is a terrible point because you can easily unlock all of it with a downloaded save file you could get off gameFAQs in 10 seconds, or simply copying the save file to a second memory card through the console. On the flip side, farming stages for your unlocks taking a very significant amount of time is a legitimate tournament concern that needs to be considered. You can't expect custom moves to be legal until it becomes easier to transfer or until at least 6 months have passed when the game is widespread.

 

[TheSMASHtyke]

GimR just outright now said on stream that he was only complaining about how long they take to unlock and was concerned about that. He said that likely the first american tournaments won't allow custom movesets on the merit they take so long to unlock. He also mentioned he doesn't decide anything on the rule set at all.

So, not for the first tournaments, maybe or maybe not for the later ones. Could you please edit the thread title / content to stop more misinfo from getting out.

 

[Headcrab Jackalope]

What have they said? I just tuned in

GimR clarified that he just kinda said they take too long to unlock. Whoever made this topic took it as banned, so he just kind of backed up his opinion a little bit. They haven't completely ruled it out though.

 

[Rubica]

How about: People can use custom movesets if they have an Amiibo to transfer them with? That's like half of the reason they exist anyway, and no competitive Smash player is gonna be so poverty-tier that they can't afford a $15 figure.

 

[Jaedrik]

"Pass judgement" is a little bit melodramatic, don't you think? Well, that and alot of things in those couple of sentences. I don't mean to speak ill of your writing style, but I don't know if such eloquence is really called for on internet forums like this.

However, that's not really the point. Look, I'm well-acquainted with the Smash tourney scene. The problem is that people will take what said "heads of the competitive scene", i.e. top tourney organizers, people like VGBC with tons of followers, will say at face value. I think that in itself is a problem, and they really don't need to say anything on custom moves until we have more experience with the game.

A simple "let's not talk about custom moves until we know more. No comments at this time, c'mon guys." would've made more sense to say. And it would've eliminated the need for this thread entirely.

I mean what I say, sir. I do not believe my language was an exaggeration, nor did I believe it too fancy for you to comprehend.

What the OP has said, and what you implied in your first post, is incongruent with what you say now. The accusations made are that they are hardline anti-custom move. This is not so. Nor should any think so. To misinterpret their language lies in the fault of those with an agenda, mostly. Perhaps not you, or perhaps not OP, but somewhere down the line someone heard what they wanted to hear, and twisted the words to suit their agenda, either deliberately or unconsciously. Those are the ones primarily to blame, since they have induced scandal, the occasioning of others to wrongdoing.

So far, I have not seen evidence of any language which has any reasonable interpretation that could mean the things that they are accused of thinking. As I have been watching for hours on end the past few days, I can corroborate this lack of evidence with my own testimony that they have not said such things, and they have spoken many disclaimers.