Guide CunningKitsune's Guide to Ace Arwing Pilot Fox McCloud

[NJzFinest]

only two moves combo from the drill, shine and jab. Therefore drill->waveshine->usmash is a valid combo but also at high percents or on floaty characters you can drill->jab->usmash. Or if you're a real *** you can drill jab jab usmash.

???????????
im just sayin that one of his combos are wrong....that's it. im not sayin i dont know any drill comboes or w/e.

 

[FalseFalco]

Okay. I'm not saying you dont know any drill comboes either, you merely seemed unsure about that specific combo and I clarified.

 

[CunningKitsune]

Yeah, I'm going to have to change that one. lol I had you going for a while there, didn't I, faf? Quite a ways back, I realized that it does not combo but neglected to change it in here; that'll get done along with the next update. Of course, assuming that your foe does not react quickly enough after the drill, you can still pull the up-smash out, but for safety's sake and to compensate for non-slow players, shine is your best friend (and is a lot of fun, of course). As False said, you can also give jabbing from the drill a shot; particularly from the ledge, a drill to jab to JC'd up-smash (JC if necessary) for the kill is absolutely one of the funniest things that you can do. You can also go drill to jab to up-smash on a platform if the shine would send your victim off too quickly for you to kill with the up-smash right then and there.

Still working on the update...

 

[Rye]

Here's a question: Why does Drill-> Usmash or Drill -> JC grab not work as well? I don't see people doing it a lot. I do it a lot, but only against the noobs on campus. Is there some simple solution that they don't see?

I'm not claiming that these work on high levels of play, but I want to know why they don't occur at high levels of play.

 

[Rye]

edit: double posted -_-

 

[CunningKitsune]

Rye, it is simply due to the fact that drill to up-smash and drill to JC grab are not legitimate combos, that is, they give your opponent a slight amount of time to respond in between the drill and either the up-smash or the JC grab. Because of this, there are indeed rather simple solutions that the aware player will be able to implement. For example, one could simply hold down on his chosen shield button as the drill was hitting him and the shield would pop out to stop the up-smash. In the case that you were to go for the JC grab, many characters have jabs quick enough to get through after the drill; a shine could also very easily beat out the JC grab.

The drill to grab is not necessarily a bad option; in fact, it can come in handy should you notice that your foe is prone to holding out his shield while getting hit, allowing you to get in a free grab easier than doing drill to shine JC'd into a grab. I go drill to grab oftentimes in this very circumstance, especially since many of the people that I play with automatically hold up their shield for long periods of time.

This is the very reason that you do not see drill to grab or drill to up-smash done in high-level play. Who wants to take the risk when there's a higher placing or a share of the pot on the line? Who wants to risk getting your up-smash shielded and subsequently getting shield-grabbed as Fox, of all characters? Who wants to risk giving a Falco an easy shine and thus a gateway to a potentially-devastating shine combo? Granted, there may be some rather... adventurous people who would scoff at such risks, but the vast majority of (smart) others prefer not to give their opponents the slightest chance, myself included.

 

[Rye]

Perhaps there's something I'm not seeing, but it would seem that the upsmash would NOT be a bad idea because when they block it, they are pushed too far back for a shield grab. Is this not the case when YOU have your upsmash guarded?

No one is dumb enough to sheild grab fox because of shines. After you have your opponen conditioned that way, not NOT go for a drill-> grab?

Again, I'm simply curious.


Edit: How does the "infinite" shine combo finish then if drill-> Upsmash isn't a combo? I can get it on training mode to tell me it IS a combo, as I'm sure any fox player can.

 

[CunningKitsune]

Perhaps there's something I'm not seeing, but it would seem that the upsmash would NOT be a bad idea because when they block it, they are pushed too far back for a shield grab. Is this not the case when YOU have your upsmash guarded?

In many cases, yes, the fact that the up-smash pushes characters too far back for a shield grab would apply. However, this obviously does not apply to those with extended grabs, i.e. the Links and Samus, in which case you will get grabbed. In addition, even though the shielder may be too far away for them to shield-grab you, keep in mind that this is not their only option by a long shot. For example, they can always simply wavedash out of shield to a grab, or short-hop out of the shield to their respective fair, or up+B out of shield, or what have you. In all of these cases, you would be giving your opponent an easy shield-counter on your Fox. Granted, it is not a shield-grab, but the fact remains that you are leaving yourself open and thus are giving your opponent the chance to get their hits in.

No one is dumb enough to sheild grab fox because of shines. After you have your opponen conditioned that way, not NOT go for a drill-> grab?

You'd be surprised; many players persist in attempting to shield-grab a Fox despite the shine. -.- I do agree with you on this point here, as I somewhat inferred in my previous post.

I go drill to grab oftentimes in this very circumstance, especially since many of the people that I play with automatically hold up their shield for long periods of time.

I tend to lean toward the drill into shine JC'd to a grab, however, simply because it provides the greatest safeguard against retaliation.

Edit: How does the "infinite" shine combo finish then if drill-> Upsmash isn't a combo? I can get it on training mode to tell me it IS a combo, as I'm sure any fox player can.

Any infinite shine finisher will place a shine before the lethal up-smash; it will never conclude with a simple drill to up-smash for the very reason that it is not a stable combo. The shine ensures that nothing will interfere with the finishing up-smash.

You can get drill to up-smash to register as a combo in Training Mode? Strange that I and faf cannot... Perhaps there is a few frames difference between registering the combo and not registering it. Regardless, drill to up-smash remains in my mind to be an unstable "combo"; I'd rather not take my chances with it when drill to waveshine to up-smash works every time. Perhaps someone could make a vid or something of the drill to up-smash comboing. I would like to see that myself.

 

[FalseFalco]

I think he means he can get the infinate to combo in training ("like any fox player can").

A finisher for the infinate....i usually full jump and Uair and get a sweetspot. Or course, i never do infinates so it doesnt really matter XD.

 

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

props for the guide, read it a long while ago but wasn't a member here, so eh. I recently got back into fox after finally mastering waveshining...maybe i'll even use him as a main...

also, a random useless tidbit: regarding the infinite firefox stall on the ledge, I'm pretty sure you can also do it with the fox illusion. however, you have to be a lot quicker, and still it's pretty useless...
...certainly looks cool, tho. ^_^;

 

[stargirl]

wow cunningk, ur really smart (im not trying to sound saracistic, i just like how u have all this info)

 

[darknut2627]

You should try and get this guide stickied.

 

[AC]

CKit

1. Maybe you could add a character-specific strategies section? Hmm just a thought.

2. HoEW dO I bEat teh kunNinG CitSUnE?

 

[CunningKitsune]

Ac!

Heh, I never thought that I'd see you in this thread, AC.

1. You read my mind. Character-specific is the major add-on for this round of updates, including quite a significant section on the IC's vs. Fox match-up courtesy of Trail.

2. I'm sorry, sir, but you cannot.

 

[magnumXIII]

i read it all and I have to say you realy cleared a lot of info up for me thanks. Very nice, very nice indeed!

 

[Foxpower+]

Yeah thanks CK for the guide I really owe it to you. Good luck on the new update! Don't forget my site!

 

[arthurhl4]

sorry to ask a considered "noob" question.. but i still don't get the explanation for wavedashing, like what do you mean by air-dodging diagnally to the ground?
Can someone explain wavedashing again to me please? Thanks a lot.

 

[Shadow-Kitsune]

Airdodging: Airdodging is basically, dodging in the air. Y'know how you can press L (or R) + Down on the Control Stick (The Control Stick is the big, gray, joystick like thing. If you are holding the controller properly, it should be roughly underneath your left thumb) to spot-dodge (Dodging attacks/projectiles while staying in the same place)? Well, just do this while you're in the air, and the same thing happens. Except while int he air, you can dodge in ANY direction, not just down. An interesting thing to note, is that the dodge also carries you some distance away from the orgination point (that is, where you were before you air-dodged)

Now that we have air-dodging explained, I can explain to you WaveDashing. Since the Air-dodge can take you a fair amount of distance(at least, while you're Fox. And some other characters as well), you can use this to 'glide' on top of the ground, or any platform. Basically, just jump (either by tapping X,Y,or Up on the Control Stick. Yes, that large, gray thing.). NOW. Before you actually leave the ground, your character goes through something called a 'jump animation' You most likely will not see the jump animation, if you are playing with Fox. But it is there. It takes up roughly 4 frames, or 1/15th of a second. DURING that jump animation, your character is considered 'jumping', but has not yet left the ground. THIS IS YOUR WINDOW. During this time, you must quickly air-dodge (since you are technically in the air at this moment) To either side (right or left), and slightly downwards. If we are to show this in degrees, look at a picture of a unit circle . You should dodge in somewhere around the 200-degrees or 340-degrees range. When you do this, you should slide across the ground.

 

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

don't you have to jump =after= the jumping animation? Otherwise you could wd in the first frame of any character's jumping animation and bowser would wd just as quickly as fox

but anyways, you have to air-dodge -right- after you leave the ground.

try to do it too early and you're still in the jumping animation so nothing happens and you just jump.

try to do it too late and you're too far off the ground so you end up triangle jumping.

also, if you're just starting, just stick with a 45-degree angle into the ground for a "regular" wavedash. for "perfect" wavedashing you have to tilt the control stick more horizontal so you get more distance. a little more tricky.

 

[FalseFalco]

don't you have to jump =after= the jumping animation? Otherwise you could wd in the first frame of any character's jumping animation and bowser would wd just as quickly as fox

Wrong. I understand what you're getting at and I'm not sure how to explain it but obviously it cant be right (bowser doesnt wd as quick as fox). I've always stuck with the thought proccess of "___ is a ___ frame jumper therefore his wd is either fast(4frames) or slow(6 frames)" but im sure theres a better way to explain it.

If you were able to airdodge in the first frames of the jump then yes that would mean all characters would wd the same but since that isn't so then you must have a certain wait time between the jump animation and the liftoff where you can airdoge, and this wait time would determine the speed. Anyone know the term for this wait time?

And I apologize for being off topic; this isnt melee discussion.

 

[Rye]

Once you press the jump button, your character is commited to jumping. However, each character has a different number of frames before actually leaving the ground (which changes their move-set over to their ariels). During these wait frames, you can only do a few things: You can reflector, grab, or upsmash to cancel the jump. You cannot dodge or use any other attack during these wait frames. Therefore, if you press the block button too early, it will be completely ignored.

Again different characters have different lag time between the initial phase and the ariel moveset switch. That's the best way I can explain it

 

[Doraki]

When you jump your character goes in the "kneebend" animation before actually jumping, where he stays for between 3 frames (with Fox) and 8 frames (Bowser)
At the end of the last frame, your character is considered going into the air, and you can then do anything as if you were already in the air : air dodging, double jumping, starting an aerial, using B moves ...

You don't need to go to the jump animation.

To wavedash you have to wait for the kneebend animation to finish, but you can airdodge before leaving the ground if you do it on the right frame.

Btw, about short hopping, you need to let go of the stick/buttons before the kneebend animation finishes, meaning that if you hold up/Y/X for more than 2 frames with Fox you'll do a full jump.

Edit : During the kneebend animation, you can do an Up-B, an Up-Smash or a Grab, but you can't shine.
Once again you need to wait the 3rd frame if you want to shine like in the infinite jump-cancelled shine (and you shouldn't do it on the 4th frame you'd be too high to land fast enough)

 

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

Wrong. I understand what you're getting at and I'm not sure how to explain it but obviously it cant be right (bowser doesnt wd as quick as fox). I've always stuck with the thought proccess of "___ is a ___ frame jumper therefore his wd is either fast(4frames) or slow(6 frames)" but im sure theres a better way to explain it.

If you were able to airdodge in the first frames of the jump then yes that would mean all characters would wd the same but since that isn't so then you must have a certain wait time between the jump animation and the liftoff where you can airdoge, and this wait time would determine the speed. Anyone know the term for this wait time?

And I apologize for being off topic; this isnt melee discussion.

yeah, i know. i'm right, you just misunderstood me, i think.
i know bowser obviously cant wd as fast as fox, i'm just saying if what shadow-kitsune said is true, then that would be the case.

but what shadow-kitsune said ISN'T true, so this is -not- the case.
so both you and me are right, basically.

however, Doraki brought up a good point. I didn't know you don't actually have to go into the jumping animation...so i was wrong on that point.

hope this didn't just cause mass confusion.


back on topic, i'm looking forward to learning how to deal with those ICs...using the shine to split them up and all...=p

 

[FalseFalco]

Im glad that was clarified for future confusion. (I had a feeling you could airdodge during the jump animation too but that screws everything up)

I also didnt know bowser was an 8 and fox was a 3. are luigi shiek and samus all 3s aswell?

 

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

in the official statistics list in MD there's a list of character's jumping speeds:
i copied it here because i'm too lazy to figure out how to link to the particular post.

=====
Jumping Speed - Jumping speed is how long it takes to do a jump from the ground. Every aerial jump (a.k.a. 2nd jump) takes 1 frame (starts instantaneously), as it's proven by the Screw Attack weapon, which hits anything nearby the EXACT INSTANT the character with the Screw Attack item jumps. Also, characters jump slower when they're big (Giant Melee and/or with a Super Mushroom) and they jump faster from the ground when they're small (Tiny Melee and/or with a Poison Mushroom)

Also please note that [for example] Fox (4 frames jumping speed) is in the AIR on frame 4+, so that means that the jumping ANIMATION (frames on the ground) is 3 frames for Fox.

---For more information on jumping speed go here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthre...1183#post651183

4 frames - Fox / Ice Climbers / Kirby / Pichu / Pikachu / Samus / Sheik

5 frames - Captain Falcon / Dr. Mario / Luigi / Mario / Marth / Mr. Game & Watch / Ness / Young Link

6 frames - DK / Falco / Jigglypuff / Mewtwo / Peach / Roy / Yoshi

7 frames - Ganondorf / Link / Zelda

-

9 frames - Bowser
=====

so according to this, Fox is technically in the air by frame 4. He's in the jumping =animation= for 3 frames.

also, according to the link in that post, you can't be holding the jump button on frame 3 if you want to short hop, which explains why it's so ****ing hard to learn how to sh with fox. =p

imagine if wavedashing required you to sh...oh man waveshining would be nigh impossible...

 

[Shadow-Kitsune]

...

****.

I don't like being proved wrong, but thanks for clarifying the subject. Sorry for the false information.

 

[Hoefler]

aAIGht NiCKaz lets take this ******** explainin' ****t outta this here boss fox thREEad.

YOOOOOooooo

(Cunning, manage you're **** thread.)

Ps. I don't actually sound this ********, but after reading the last about 10 posts it's just what came naturally.

 

[Ijuka]

Correction..

I think I must correct some false information a few pages back, becouse I have actually gotten Fox's utilt and ftilt to combo after his drill(tried it 2 mins ago) against Bowser, I haven't been able to get them combo on other chars tho(Might some chars have a longer/shorter stun? O_o). Erm...That's it <_<

 

[FalseFalco]

You're saying you got fulljump>fastfall>drill>lcancel>utilt to register as a 3 hit combo in training mode vs a bowser.

 

[Doraki]

comboing to uptilt is easy.

ftilt sounds strange, I think you should do your ada and fastfall so that you do a hit right before hitting the ground or something to combo easier.

Different chars having different stun may very well be true..
It is obviously true in the air, with the up throw *cough*luigi*cough*

 

[bornfidelity.com]

Can't this one be stickied? Most other char-specific guides are stickied :/

 

[FalseFalco]

Moderators have a sick sick sense of irony.

 

[bornfidelity.com]

Moderators have a sick sick sense of irony.

Heh, guess they don't like the idea of more good Foxes out there..

 

[NintendoKing]

OMG I learned everything I know from CK. No johns.

 

[bornfidelity.com]

It's always good to see people picking up Fox because of a guide such as this one.
Considering Nintendoking will..
(keeping this topic alive, since it STILL hasn't been stickied)

 

[bornfidelity.com]

How do you get something stickied? Do you have to send a request to a mod? 'Cause then, err, CunningKitsune, you should. This guild is too good to disappear on the second page..

 

[CunningKitsune]

Yeah, I'm going to hold off on getting this stickied until I'm done with the latest version, which (so far) is looking to be something like v3.33 or v3.43, depending on just how much gets added. It looks like it's going to be quite the chunk, too; the first three moves (not sections, moves) alone have had like 5 kB worth of text added to them, so who knows how much larger the other sections will get? Only time will tell.

Hang in there, guys! Depending on outside interference, the latest update will be out in around a week; I definitely want to get it done before school starts. Before I send it to the rest of the websites and edit its posts here and on other forums, this latest version will first be available in my shared on DC++ (under this same name) for those of you who simply can't wait any longer than that. As always, Smashboards will be the first site to receive the update, so if you for some reason still don't have DC++, you can find the update here in due time.

I will edit the title of this thread when the release date comes. Look for it! I promise you will not be disappointed with the end result.

 

[jetcombo15]

When you L-cancel, are you supposed to hold L long enough so that it shields?

 

[FalseFalco]

No.

If you want to shield, feel free to, but to link to other attacks together you must not shield. Just tap L.

 

[Barogrei]

backwards waveshining

I noticed in your guide in the section about waveshining it did not mention that you can't jump out of the shine while turning. I feel that it would be very useful to a beginning (or even some intermediate) fox players to know that this is the reason they find backwards waveshining to be more different than its opposite. For more information, look in my thread "Why it is harder to waveshine backwards." I hope you consider adding this information. I'm sure you'll be able to explain it much better than myself. By the way, any luck ledgekicking (that trick I showed you at fc3)?