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CT ZeRo's Coaching Program! (I'm back!)

Gadiel_VaStar

Smash Champion
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GadielVaStar
1.- Hey!

The only real and effective way for a mid level player to achieve a "top player" status, is to practice harder than the top players. You need to efficiently use your time to practice. My Apex schedule is something like this:

6 AM>3 PM: School/Study
3:30/4PM>7 PM: Brawl practice. CPU tech skill practice, wifi MU practice, training mode perfecting things I'm not used to, etc. 3 hours of sitting down, focusing, and really improving different things of my game. I sit down with a glass of water, and plug in my headphones, and also bring a textbook to type down all the things that I'm noticing could help me on later, or on what I should work on later on.
7:30/8:00>9:00 PM: Excercise. Take the dogs to a walk, move around, etc. Moving your body, and breathing some fresh air everyday is very important to always have energy and play well! Both mentally, and phsycally.
9:30/10:pM>11 PM: Time to watch videos, and study down what's going on in the current meta game. What are the other top players doing in tournament? What tactics are they using? Strategies? I study all of this, and type the down in a word document and textbook, so I don't get "surprised" when I finally play them. Developing strategies for everything>preparing yourself for every scenario is the way to consistently win.

And then I use the rest of the time to sleep.

This schedule is also coupled with me only eating things that give me energy, and not "over eat" some kind of food. Aka, always eating varied things.

Lots of fruits, veggies, meat, A BUNCH OF MEAT, ham, chicken, FISH, FISH, FISH.

And LOTS of water.

I also eat every 3 hours small portions.

I do all of this, coupled with a steady and consistent practice to further develop my skills.

If you want to be better than a top player, practice harder than him/her, and study other players harder than them. Eventually, you will reach them. Add this to the fact that you should also attend as many offline tournaments as you can. Those are AWESOME practice. Varied and long practice sessions are AWESOME. Especially in the MU/Tricks/strategy department!

2.- Ic's are technically, the best in the game. Why? Powershield + Grab> Instawin any match up. But that is not "as easy" as it sounds.

In reality, subbing' Ic's at a pro level, isn't that hard. You only need one thing: Not drop grabs. If you're a pro, you would already have the smarts "up there" to be able to out-read another pro, and grab him enough times to win a set. This is why IC's area common secondary at pro level. You don't require much specifical practice with them, to use them effectively (Counterpick their counterpick).

Aka, they wanna use FD with a char like Falco? Go IC's! Etc.

In my opinion, simply practice the CG against every top tier character, or any char that gives you troubles, on stages like FD/BF/SV (you don't really wanna use them somwhere else) and try to use them whenever you can in tournament. Whenever, when? When you would have a huge advantage if doing so. Like someone wants to go FD with a char who is very bad vs IC's, and so on.

Keep playing Pit, and getting better. Watch Earth a lot, and practice those IC's cg's.

You got this!

Hopefully I helped you :).

//

Guys, feel free to post replays/videos so I can give better advice!
Thank you so much Zero, I will save this and try to make my own schedule for Apex since I plan on going. I'll also make some mini-schedules for the other regionals I want to go to coming up.
 

TSM ZeRo

Banned via Administration
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Thank you so much Zero, I will save this and try to make my own schedule for Apex since I plan on going. I'll also make some mini-schedules for the other regionals I want to go to coming up.
No problem! That's awesome. I'll make sure to greet & money match you then :).
 

Gadiel_VaStar

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,066
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Atlanta, GA
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GadielVaStar
No problem! That's awesome. I'll make sure to greet & money match you then :).
Ok, so how can I get a better understanding from watching videos? I've been trying really hard to get a grasp of the flow of the match and whatnot, but I'm having trouble getting a full understanding. Tips for that?
 

BlueXenon

Smash Lord
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^ I think im having the same problem. When I watch matches, i have a hard time understanding what players are trying to do and what strategies they have.
 

TSM ZeRo

Banned via Administration
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Los Angeles, CA
Ok, so how can I get a better understanding from watching videos? I've been trying really hard to get a grasp of the flow of the match and whatnot, but I'm having trouble getting a full understanding. Tips for that?
^ I think im having the same problem. When I watch matches, i have a hard time understanding what players are trying to do and what strategies they have.
To really understand a match properly, you need to know what's going on. To know what's going on, you at the very least, need experience doing what's being done on the screen.

The only way to solve this, is to keep improving and improving as a player. For example, at first, I would watch M2K vids and be amazed and see someone play perfect all the time, but didn't quite get why he did all the things that he was doing. Now I understand the thought process behind every move, and even see mistakes, or parts where he could of done "x" for a better outcome in that situation.

What you guys can do to accelerate this process, is to ask the players themselves, why they're doing what they're doing, or their mindsets. You can also try to analize the reasoning behind every move. Why did he decide to use F-Tilt here? Because it outranges the attack he is spacing with at the moment! Why did he shield there? Because he feared to get killed by Snake's U-Tilt! And so on. By trying to understand the reason behind every move, you will definitely improve yourself as a player, how? By understanding more the most important factor in competitive Smash: Decision making. The best way to do this is to analize the enviroment of why the players do what they're doing. Stages, MU's, %'s, situations, etc. Everything affects of why X move was chosen.
 

sGale

Smash Journeyman
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May 14, 2011
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So how would I go about posting a replay? Upload it to mediafire and you look at it in Brawl?
 

Gadiel_VaStar

Smash Champion
Joined
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Atlanta, GA
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GadielVaStar
What are your views on observation of opponents habits and reading opponents? How does one get better at that? How important is it at high-level play?
 

Aefice

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 15, 2011
Messages
85
hey zero. i've got a few questions?

1. how do you glide past the edge without grabbing it like the japanese mk's do?

2. what are good situations to use ftilt instead of dtilt? i generally use dtilt because its safer on block.

3. can i get a pro matchup summary vs snake, diddy kong, marth and pikachu matchups?

thanks a lot if u get some time to answer.!!
 

TSM ZeRo

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What are your views on observation of opponents habits and reading opponents? How does one get better at that? How important is it at high-level play?
Once you understand a character well enough, you know how many options, and what options he has in every situation. Once you know a player's playstyle, and general decision-making (aggressive/defensive/baiter/scared/pro-active, etc.) you can basically read their reactions. If you for example, see an MK getting juggled, and you know that one of MK's decent options is to land with a F-Air, and you also know that the player you're playing is one who likes to do aggressive options, he will most likely F-Air/do an attack when landing, due to his desesperation to always input an attack. This is how true readings are created: Mixing character knowledge + player style.

You get better at this by :

Studying every character + your character's options in important situations. Options when getting juggled, options when getting grabbed, options when you got grabbed, or when he's grabbing, options to juggle, off stage stuff, etc.

Recognizing your opponent's playstyle decision-making wise. Decision making is NOT the same as playstyle. Decision making: Overall attitude/ideas behind every move. Playstyle: How the player generally interacts with his opponent. Ally is a baiter/aggressive player when it comes down to decision making, but a completely baiter one when it comes to playstyle. He will always try to input attacks and pressure you whenever he can, and also try to make you feel like you can punish him in situations where you really can't.

Is your opponent an aggressive one? Baiter? Defensive?

Simply knowing what attitude your opponent has at decision making, and what options he has, will allow you to start reading what he does in a consistent basis.

hey zero. i've got a few questions?

1. how do you glide past the edge without grabbing it like the japanese mk's do?

2. what are good situations to use ftilt instead of dtilt? i generally use dtilt because its safer on block.

3. can i get a pro matchup summary vs snake, diddy kong, marth and pikachu matchups?

thanks a lot if u get some time to answer.!!
1.- It's a very tricky thing to do. You have to glide down to gain momentum, then go up towards the ledge, when you're about to touch the ledge, you press down+ towards the stage, then as you're out out of the range of the ledge (range of grabbing it) you stop pressing down and keep going forward. If you did it correctly you will glide past the ledge. It requires practice to do this consistently.

2.- F-Tilt and D-Tilt have the same range. However, D-Tilt like you put it, is safer on block, due to having a couple less frames than F-Tilt when you want to do another attack/move. F-Tilt is great to cancel out your opponents Air Attack when he's about to attack you, sort of GSL. It's also great when you want to quickly punish something and you don't want to D-Smash, or you're out of grab range (At F-Tilt range, F-Tilt is faster than a dash grab). It's also great to punish MK's who like to SH around, simply wait out for their attack, walk forward and F-Tilt! F-Tilt is best used to punish things immediatly, due to it's ridiculous speed, and decent damage output when spammed (10%-13%). It's also easy to follow up into itself. F-Tilt>wait for airdodge/reaction>F-Tilt>if they end up above you, you shield and then N-Air, etc. It's a great set up tool.

3.- Sure!

Snake:

Bans: PS1 if you don't like Snake's strings. Halberd if you don't like dying early to him. FD if you don't like getting camped.

Counterpicks: Delfino/Halberd/Brinstar/Rainbow Cruise/Smashville are all good picks. Don't pick delfino if you dont want to deal with Snake's crazy tricks. Same with RC.

This match up is very one sided if either player is better than the other. What does this mean? That if you're not on the same skill level as the other player, he can just do whatever he wants, and be succesfull with every one of them

That being said, this MU can be in both ways:

The M2K way, which means, constant agression and pressure.

This strategy relies on you reading what your opponent will do, and counter it every time:

  • Shields/grenade in hand: Dash grab.
  • Spotdodge: Short hop tornado.
  • Dash attack: Tornado in place, walk away>F-Tilt. Short hopped F-Air while moving backwards.
  • F-Tilt: F-Tilt/SH Tornado/Shield + Grab/F-Tilt as a damage racker, if not D-Smash for the kill/Upb if you got hit in your back, and you're quite far. If close, N-Air, whenever it's possible.
  • U-Tilt: Same with F-Tilt.
  • Grenade spam: If he cooks them, you will need to learn his pattern and go for the way he isn't covering, and then read the action he will do to get you. Every Snake has a pattern when grenade camping. If he likes to throw them very together, catch him when he's pulling one (GSL Works great, since you explode the grenade with him, and abuse your invencible frames). If he throws them quite apart from each one, and not cooked, then you can throw them back at him after 2 seconds so they explode when they get in contact with Snake, if they're cooked, simply get out of the way completely. Shielding/Spotdging is bad because Snake will slowly approach at you and punish these, or, lower your shield to shield poke you with F-Tilt/U-Tilt. If he likes to only throw them in one direction, go for the other, and so on. In general approaching him careless, will mean a bunch of damage to you. Most Pro's would play very campy in this phase, until they see an opening, or completely analyzed Snake's grenade pattern.

When Juggling:

  • Air dodge (when high in the air): U-Air, fast fall U-Air/N-Air.
  • Air dodge (when lowin the air): U-Air, Fast fall N-Air, if there's no time (cause he will land after you U-Air), then D-Air.

  • B-Air (you're on the ground): U-Air if you're below him. If not, GSL/Shield+ punish.
  • B-Air (you're high on the air): Fast fall U-Air. Don't try to challenge the B-Air hitbox, it's pretty outrageous to do so. And hard to do consistently. You can also Fast Fall while up-airing, and then jump and N-Air. Works awesome too.
  • B-Air (when he's landing behind you): Hardest angle to get him. I would simply walk towards it then shield and react. If you run at him, it's an easy to predict GSL).
  • B-Air (when the B-Air is in the other direction): Easy tornado in general, especially in landings. Otherwise easy F-Air/U-Air.

N-Air (high in the air): Go below him and fast fall while U-Airing, if you don't get him, then jump and N-Air. You can also challenge it with a shuttle loop, but the timing needs to be this way: Hit Snake with your strongest hitbox (early), if not, don't try to challenge it.

N-Air (Mid air, he's gonna "almost" land with it): Tornado below him. You can see this tornado in my set vs Ally, just at the start: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQi4_JSHsPc

Last thing:

Don't spam Upbs against he cypher. Mix it between D-Air's/Shuttle Loops/N-Airs so none of them get stale, and you can still kill Snake.

Or the conventional way, which is extremely campy.

Involves around D-Air camping, and waiting for Snake's pattern to show up and punish him with what I typed above.

Diddy Kong:

Ban: PS1 if you fear getting infinited in a wall/combo'ed. FD if you don't like getting camped. YI if you don't like him recovering easier to the stage.

Counterpicks: Halberd/Delfino (watch out for infinites/spikes in the water!) Brinstar/Delfino are all very good counterpicks.

This match up is all about getting around the bananas and not getting combo'ed across the stage.

You can play effectively in both ways: Campy, or aggressive.

Here's a summary on how to deal with Diddy's common strats:

ADHD strategy (Banana in hand, in ground and peanut spam): You have to move around his banana throw range, and grab it. Then with it hand, you can approach his wall because he's not covering the ground. Glide toss to grab. F-Air, tornado are all good options. So is dash attack/F-Air (to counter the throw)

In general:

Space everything correctly. He will punish you hard for any technical mistake you make. Make sure to only tornado when his shield is low. D-Air camp is good to lower shields, and F-Air/Dash attack catch bananas is great too.

Don't play too agressive, or too campy, he counters both styles. Play aggro, then go all in when he's in the air.

Juggling him is pretty easy. Tornado on landings owns him very hard. U-Air beats all of his options, and you can shuttle loop his monkey flip. You can also tornado it when he comes back with it from off the stage.

Edgeguard:

You want to D-Air him over and over, shuttle loop/Tornado his monkey flips, and Shuttle Loop/N-Air/D-Air his upb and then he is dead.

He is tricky, but very easy to gimp. If you constantly get him in the air, you will win easily. But if you can't, then he will own you hard. His ground game is excellent.


Marth:

My posts above me are very good, but here's some more information:

Bans: FD if you don't like getting grabbed easier. If not, BF/SV depending of what platforms you like more. YI is also a good ban if you don't like him recovering easier.

Delfino (watch out for spikes), Halberd/Brinstar/RC are all great CP's.

The Marth MU is pretty simple. Whoever spaces the best, and counters the other player's approaches, wins.

In general:

  • SH F-Airs: Shield>Dash grab/F-Air/GSL/N-Air if not spaced properly.
  • Double Jump: Upb, or catch the landing with tornado.
  • Side B's: Shield/tornado.

Summary:

You basically need to counter one of Marth's option, then juggle him until he is dead. U-Air/Shuttle loop/Tornado on landings beats EVERY single one of his options, besides Down B. When he starts Down B'ing, you simply wait, and it's a free grab/N-Air.

Edgeguard:

Go all the way down to him, and Down Air at 45 degreeangle. He can't survive it. If he's pretty close to the stage, he will UPb you, and land on the stage. To counter this, simply bait it, and punish afterwards.

Tornado the ledge when he is grabbing it. It's SO good vs him.

SH's: Tornado in general destroys Marth's SH. So does running + shielding, because of Marth's poor dash grab.

Pikachu:

Ban: FD if you don't to get camped/grabbed hardcore. If not, PS1 for Pikachu's tricks there.

Delfino/Halberd/Brinstar/RC are all great. Just be careful of getting killed very early on Halberd/RC, or CG'ed to death on Delfino/RC's third transformation.

This match up is all about properly spacing your attacks and not getting grabbed early. Pikachu will own you "Falco Style" if he gets a grab on you early on. Proper spacing of Full Hop D-Air camping, F-Tilt and D-Tilt are key. So are backward SH F-Air's to prevent his dashes/ground movement.

Juggling him is pretty easy. Standard things. U-Air/tornado's like I said earlier are all great options.

D-Air camping is very good vs Pikachu, because it's hard for him to hit you. And it also keeps you safe from his proyectile camping.

D-Air camping to landing to dash grab is a very good mix up vs him.

In general, play careful, don't over extend, after 50%, you can be more aggressive because you won't get 50% if you get grabbed. And also, be extremely careful of going too high into the air, that is a free thunder kill for him, also: DI HIS D-SMASH. MASH UP, AND THAT'S IT.

Edgeguard:

He's really hard to gimp, because if the Pikachu recovers smartly, you won't really catch him. But you can punish poor recoveries: If he Upb's to the edge/stage, you can tornado over to the edge, and then go back. If he misspaces his Upb, you'll hit him. You can also Down Air, N-Air him in the same fashion as Falco's Side b. If you see he will make it to the edge using his second movement of his Upb, grab the ledge, and he's dead. Besides of this, you can't really do much.
 

ninjapenguin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 25, 2011
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Shreveport
Personal question Zero, what's your favorite ruleset/stagelist? I love the Apex 10 stages, but I feel like a more Japanese styled ruleset is more competitive. The 10 minute timer is also a good idea in my opinion. What do you think?
 

BlueXenon

Smash Lord
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Which character do you think has the best match up vs mk if both players are on the same skill level?
I think its Falco.
 

TSM ZeRo

Banned via Administration
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thanks champ
No problem bro!

Personal question Zero, what's your favorite ruleset/stagelist? I love the Apex 10 stages, but I feel like a more Japanese styled ruleset is more competitive. The 10 minute timer is also a good idea in my opinion. What do you think?
Sure thing. Any personal question is welcomed, really. Unless it's something that the answer would be something weird to read, haha. Anyway!

My favorite ruleset is MLG's. I find the huge stage variety, and counterpicking/banning importance to be some REALLY good practice and skill measure. You have to prepare yourself for so many situations and scenarios, that you really get better in the process, and you can also define who are the players that adapt and practice the better, and so on. I love this.

10 minutes is a good idea too. I feel like timing out with 8 minutes is pretty easy sometimes, and 10 minutes makes it harder, and therefore more skilled.

But Apex's current stage list is just fine for competition. I don't like the Japanese ruleset, there's no variety, and that's not fun to me. I love developing tricks on every stage, especialy the crazy ones!

Which character do you think has the best match up vs mk if both players are on the same skill level?
I think its Falco.
I'd say Snake a bit more than Falco. The match up is absolutely one sided if one player is better than the other. But when both of them are evenly skilled, the MU is very even.

Falco is also a quite even MU, until they have to kill each other, which is Falco's main weakness at a pro level. But Snake and MK have similar tools: Both can rack up a bunch of damage at any phase of the match, both can camp each other, both can kill each other really easily, and so on.

The only thing that give MK's an "edge" is the off-stage game, where is MK shines and gets the advantage.
 

Myollnir

Smash Ace
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
943
Location
Paris, France
Hi!

Would you mind doing some video criticism for me please? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxF54xPIyvg&feature=player_detailpage#t=181s

On a different note, I have a huge problem against metaknight when playing as pokemon trainer.

I know this isn't really the good character board for this, but you seem to be knowledgeable so I was wondering if you could help me with the MU. What are PT's good options against MK? What should I try to do, etc...

Thanks in advance! :)
 

GOofyGV

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2011
Messages
1,108
Location
Netherlands
Zero what makes you wanting to help anyone actualy :O
I'mma vote this threat as threat of the year.

and I also have some questions regarding mk.
I am an Europian player living in the region where Mr.R and Orion also live.
and both know mk really well obviously because Orion mains him and Mr.R plays a lot against him.
I was thinking about picking up a sub for this problem But should I really do that or should I just stick to solo mk? Because I do know the mu's against them as well but they are way better then I am.

Edit: what tech skills and at's does mk has that I have to practice in trainings mode?
I do know about platform canceling,UpB cancel then fall though a platform,upBing into the edge and spacing sideB that way that you do not have lag by going of the stage or platform.
 

BlueXenon

Smash Lord
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Can I post a video here for criticism even if im a bad player and there will probably be a big mistake every 10 seconds?
 

Orion*

Smash Researcher
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Messages
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Zero what makes you wanting to help anyone actualy :O
I'mma vote this threat as threat of the year.

and I also have some questions regarding mk.
I am an Europian player living in the region where Mr.R and Orion also live.
and both know mk really well obviously because Orion mains him and Mr.R plays a lot against him.
I was thinking about picking up a sub for this problem But should I really do that or should I just stick to solo mk? Because I do know the mu's against them as well but they are way better then I am.

Edit: what tech skills and at's does mk has that I have to practice in trainings mode?
I do know about platform canceling,UpB cancel then fall though a platform,upBing into the edge and spacing sideB that way that you do not have lag by going of the stage or platform.
lmao its not my thread to post in, but tech skill is literally everything. practicing things you cant do is important (i.e. bdacus, platform cancel drops, banana infinites whatever). But having consistency in what you already know how to do is more important. In other words, practice what you already know against computers for hours to build consistency.
 

TSM ZeRo

Banned via Administration
Joined
Mar 25, 2011
Messages
1,295
Location
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Hi!

Would you mind doing some video criticism for me please? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxF54xPIyvg&feature=player_detailpage#t=181s

On a different note, I have a huge problem against metaknight when playing as pokemon trainer.

I know this isn't really the good character board for this, but you seem to be knowledgeable so I was wondering if you could help me with the MU. What are PT's good options against MK? What should I try to do, etc...

Thanks in advance! :)
1.- I played Leon in a MM at Apex (I won 3-1). He is a tough player, especially on his follow ups. If you don't react back properly, you're gonna takea bunch of damage. This was your main issue with your game as MK: You didn't react properly back at him.

Your spacing is great, though. Definitely your strong factor. However you also were too scared of him. You gave out way too much free stage space, for no reason, basically getting zoned like if you were at 100%.

Above you can find my summary of "what do" vs Marth, phase by phase.

In general, you:

1.- Gave out stage control because you we're scared. You can be defensive, but zone at the same time. You simpyl space things out of his range while slowly approaching. Leon is aggressive, so you can easily dash + shield grab him most of the time.

2.- When you were getting comboed, you simply chose bad options (laggy, not properly executed, etc.). You need to remain calm, and either: Counterattack him (U-Airs/SL's, tornado his aerials/landings) or get out completely of that situation.

Last tip: Tornado is such a good move vs Marth, use it more often! Bait counters, and beat those spaced F-Airs!

2.- First of all. Do not go Ivysaur. You're just asking to die/get gimped no problem.

Second. Use Squirtle to space/rack up damage, and Charizard to kill. Don't use Charizard on early %'s, though.

The best strat with Squirtle, is to space out your aerials on these situations:

1.- When MK is backing out while doing an attack (F-Air, F-Tilt). Wait for him to start moving back, and F-Air him!

2.-When he is above you. Mk is easy to juggle. Shield the D-Air/Tornado, and punish landings with D-Air/F-Air!

Don't get off the stage. Never. You will die easily. If you happen to be offstage, do Mario's upb to get back (Hit him with it when he doesn't expect it).

Dash>shieldgrab>kill is a great strat to kill. Mk is easy to grab, depending of how the other MK zones (stage control)/spaces his attacks.

Most of Charizard's moves kill MK. Even D-Tilt works. But grabs, F-Airs and a well placed F-Smash can kill MK very early.

Just shield and punish. Spotdodge the dash grabs, and then grab/D-Tilt.

You can literally, spam throws at high %'s, and kill MK with Charizard. This is why I suggest only going Charizard when he is at a high %, and you're at 60% +. Why not early? Because you will get combo'ed pretty hard. MK can't really combo Squirtle.

Good luck, and hopefully I helped you out :).

Also, greetings from me to Ramin and Orion if you see them!

Zero what makes you wanting to help anyone actualy :O
I'mma vote this threat as threat of the year.

and I also have some questions regarding mk.
I am an Europian player living in the region where Mr.R and Orion also live.
and both know mk really well obviously because Orion mains him and Mr.R plays a lot against him.
I was thinking about picking up a sub for this problem But should I really do that or should I just stick to solo mk? Because I do know the mu's against them as well but they are way better then I am.

Edit: what tech skills and at's does mk has that I have to practice in trainings mode?
I do know about platform canceling,UpB cancel then fall though a platform,upBing into the edge and spacing sideB that way that you do not have lag by going of the stage or platform.
I like helping people. That's all. I like making people happy, or smile, and I tought that using my talent in something to help people would be a good idea. And here we're :).

Nope. Stick to what you already use. Keep training with Ramin and Orion. They're both excellent players. If you try harder than them, and also pratice more, you will eventually beat them (same with everyone).

Tech skill with MK is all about doing everything as smooth and fast as possible. Have you seen my MK, for example? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PWiTT5isNs). Try to do the things I do. I try my hardest to do everything fast and super smooth. Correctly Air dodge into the stage, SH U-Airs, buffered aerials and rolls, etc. There's no AT's, or anything. Just doing the basics in the most fastest manner possible! That's the most important thing with MK: Doing the basics "perfectly". Mastering things like glide tossing, and SL cancels/tricks on all the stages you can is also a very good plus, and gives you an edge over the players who don't know about them.

Can I post a video here for criticism even if im a bad player and there will probably be a big mistake every 10 seconds?
Only way you can improve is by doing things like this. Go for it bro. I'm right here to help you.
 

BlueXenon

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I liked your combo's on fox at 1:57 in the video you posted above.

I saved some replays today with a marth player who is much better than me, i will try to record it and upload it to youtube tomorrow and then post it here.
I already have a video of me playing this marth, but its from a month ago and my playstyle changed a lot since then, it was my first and only time beating him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8ynx2dB1JE
Thankyou.
 

Aefice

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
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yo zero, i was watching rain vs vinnie at SRT

i notice rain uses nado frequently to chip damage. how do you safely use it vs gaw so they can't up b you into free fall?
 

Myollnir

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Thanks a lot! :)

1.- I played Leon in a MM at Apex (I won 3-1). He is a tough player, especially on his follow ups. If you don't react back properly, you're gonna takea bunch of damage. This was your main issue with your game as MK: You didn't react properly back at him.

Your spacing is great, though. Definitely your strong factor. However you also were too scared of him. You gave out way too much free stage space, for no reason, basically getting zoned like if you were at 100%.

I am really bad at approaching, that's why I usually retreat. I don't really know how to approach without getting punished.

Above you can find my summary of "what do" vs Marth, phase by phase.

In general, you:

1.- Gave out stage control because you we're scared. You can be defensive, but zone at the same time. You simpyl space things out of his range while slowly approaching. Leon is aggressive, so you can easily dash + shield grab him most of the time.

Yes, you're right, I should do this more. But I don't want to get grabbed actually, so I don't know exactly when i should do this, any idea?

2.- When you were getting comboed, you simply chose bad options (laggy, not properly executed, etc.). You need to remain calm, and either: Counterattack him (U-Airs/SL's, tornado his aerials/landings) or get out completely of that situation.

Ok, got it. I guess the bad options you're talking about are airdodge / double jump + d-air?

Last tip: Tornado is such a good move vs Marth, use it more often! Bait counters, and beat those spaced F-Airs!

I assume I should do this when he's landing?

2.- First of all. Do not go Ivysaur. You're just asking to die/get gimped no problem.

Right.

Second. Use Squirtle to space/rack up damage, and Charizard to kill. Don't use Charizard on early %'s, though.

I don't get it ; if I have to kill with :charizard: , that means I'm already down a stock.

If you're suggesting to start with :squirtle: , rack up damage, switch to :ivysaur: , immediatly switch to :charizard: for the kill, that's too difficult to work unfortunately. Besides, :squirtle: will not usually be fresh when I lose my first stock.

In my opinion, the best strategy is to use :squirtle: for the entire first stock, then play as :ivysaur: for the first ~30% then switch immediatly to :charizard: (:pt: 's DownB gives invincibility frames, which start on Frame 1 so if I'm getting comboed, I can switch when I land) . I don't want to risk getting gimped, and :charizard: can take a fully charged F-Smash/whatever with no problems.

The best strat with Squirtle, is to space out your aerials on these situations:

1.- When MK is backing out while doing an attack (F-Air, F-Tilt). Wait for him to start moving back, and F-Air him!

Right.

2.-When he is above you. Mk is easy to juggle. Shield the D-Air/Tornado, and punish landings with D-Air/F-Air!

Got it.

Don't get off the stage. Never. You will die easily. If you happen to be offstage, do Mario's upb to get back (Hit him with it when he doesn't expect it).

I assume Mario = :squirtle: ? Yeah, :squirtle: 's UpB has a huuuge hitbox so I often recover above the ledge.


Dash>shieldgrab>kill is a great strat to kill. Mk is easy to grab, depending of how the other MK zones (stage control)/spaces his attacks.

Right. I believe I should spotdodge if I get grabbed when I try do DSG?

Most of Charizard's moves kill MK. Even D-Tilt works. But grabs, F-Airs and a well placed F-Smash can kill MK very early.

Well :charizard: 's D-tilt is powerful actually. I don't see his F-air killing a :metaknight: . I have to go offstage for it to kill, so yeah, bad idea I guess.
How should I land the F-Smash? :charizard: is totally invincible right before the hitbox comes out so it can help, but I don't really know how to land it (except if I see a Nado coming).


Just shield and punish. Spotdodge the dash grabs, and then grab/D-Tilt.

Okay.

You can literally, spam throws at high %'s, and kill MK with Charizard. This is why I suggest only going Charizard when he is at a high %, and you're at 60% +. Why not early? Because you will get combo'ed pretty hard. MK can't really combo Squirtle.

Should I put the :metaknight: above me with an U-throw or should I put him offstage with a B-throw/F-throw?

Oh and you didn't mention :charizard: 's U-smash. Isn't it a good option in this matchup?


Good luck, and hopefully I helped you out :).

Of course! :p

Also, greetings from me to Ramin and Orion if you see them!

I've never seen them actually. :c
 

GOofyGV

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Think you Orion and Zero :)

you guys bring a smile on my fca now

I am practicing a lot lately mostly because I get new motivation which was kinda lost.
I do try to put up some vids soon though.
 

TSM ZeRo

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I liked your combo's on fox at 1:57 in the video you posted above.

I saved some replays today with a marth player who is much better than me, i will try to record it and upload it to youtube tomorrow and then post it here.
I already have a video of me playing this marth, but its from a month ago and my playstyle changed a lot since then, it was my first and only time beating him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8ynx2dB1JE
Thankyou.
Thanks! :).

Is this a wifi match?

Mostly, your problems were very simple: You picked the wrong route to do something and got punished for it, you didn't react fast enough to punish something, and you didn't air dodge when you had to.

1.- This is the hardest thing to improve. You will have to simply keep playing. With the time, you will start developing your own style, and get to know match ups, and play them according to your playstyle. The fastest way to solve this: Is to watch a LOT of videos to see what the pros do, and play a lot too. This way you can know which routes are good and then develop your own/tweak options according to what you need.

2.- This is connected to the first problem. To punish correctly, you need to know "I can punish this, with this", and also react fast enough to get it. This is solved by playing more/watching videos, like I said, and also focusing on what's going on in the match. Did Marth just did something slow that I can punish? Is he at F-Tilt range? I could F-Tilt him here! <--- That's how you need to react. But of course, everything stringed fast and smoothly.

3.- This is probably because you don't know all of Marth's strings. Once you get to know them, you will know when to air dodge, and not. It's all about the angles.

My last tip, is to keep playing and training. Don't give up. Keep it up bro!

yo zero, i was watching rain vs vinnie at SRT

i notice rain uses nado frequently to chip damage. how do you safely use it vs gaw so they can't up b you into free fall?
That ONLY works in certain MU's where the opponent can't really stop it wihout using something slow/risky, like Ic's. They can only stop MK's tornado by doing a perfect F-Smash, SH Blizzard, or pivot grab. Rain would just poke a bit that shield, get it lower, and then spam tornado above their head, because Vinnie couldn't shield it! He just couldn't stop it.

Against GW, this doesn't happen. GW is pretty much anti-tornado. If you SH tornado, he can easily UPB out of it, even if it's a good tornado.

The only way to really get him, is to do a grounded tornado, and then rise, just like the tornado I did here vs Ally: (Pay attention to when Ally N-Airs in his first stock, and I tornado below him, those are the safest tornados vs GW from my exp with the MU): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6B3Z8-2M9w

Thanks a lot! :)
1.- Mostly Air dodging into another F-Air, or simply getting hit for more times than necessary (not reacting in time to not get hit again, like getting F-Aired/F-Aired or then Dancing Bladed.

2.- Not only there, but when he does ANY attack pretty much. You see him spacing F-Airs, jumping around, dancing blade? Simply go and tornado him! Unless he is mid air (Fuill hop distance) because he can UPB out of those. SH distance are the best ones, landing ones are awesome too.

3.- I do know that changing from Squirtle to Charizard is complicated, but from my experience, it works the best if you try to: Rack up damage with Squirtle aerials, and kill with Charizard's move set. Going Ivysaur at all, is leads/games are lost.

However, your strategy seems to be the more closest to my idea, and uses the timer just fine.

4.- Yep! Mixing DSG and spotdodges is awesome.

5.- F-Air is AWESOME to kill MK's who D-Air camp (FH and hit them with it as they're FH, and then go off stage a bit and F-Air the glide). I've done this a lot, and it happened to me a couple of times. If you don't know the MU, the MK player will just glide back, and it's an easy F-Air. You can hit MK's tornado with F-air, if you hit them from above, too. Mix it up here.

F-Smash works the best for: Poke a shield, then F-Smash the MK. You WILL shield-poke him and kill him. Charge it to punish even further that shield, or punish spotdodges. If the MK is not used to the trick, he won't roll (because he doesn't know the range) or GSL (scared of failing the timing). You can also F-Smash backwards if you read the roll too!

F-Smash is also very good to punish tornado spam MK's. Getting tornado combo'ed? Land and F-Smash!

Both depends of what you read better. MK is weaker when above someone, because of his poor aerial movility. So U-Throw would be the best for racking up damage (reading landings, shield grabbing his attack, shielding tornado, etc) and F-Throw/B-Throw to get him off the stage and hopefully, edgeguard to get the kill. But I feel that covering landings is awesome for both racking up damage and getting a kill.

U-Smash works wonders to catch air dodge landings to get the kill/rack up a bunch of damage!

6.- And awww ;(.

No problem! Hopefully I elped!

Can you please critique how i played in this video in 1 of the matches?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUjv7264ucY
If I did utilt or jab for no reason I was probably trying to do ftilt.
I watched the whole video and realized I used my ko moves too much.
You're making pretty much the same mistakes as the other match you linked me to.

And yes indeed, way too much GSL/D-Smash.

Punishing with F-Tilts, dash grabs, F-Airs and N-Airs (Short Hopped) is the way to go! (So your kill moves don't get staled, otherwise it gets very hard to kill the opponent as MK).

Also, at the start in Smashville, the best way to pressure someone from below is: Short Hop U-Air, U-Air, Jump, N-Air/tornado. (N-Air if their shield is already low, and you can get the hit or if they aren't angling their shield down enough to cover from their feet from your N-Air. And tornado if their shield is low enough to guarantee a tornado hit, or is someone big like DeDeDe, who is easier to hit with tornado, because they can't cover all of their body all the time with their shields).

Think you Orion and Zero :)

you guys bring a smile on my fca now

I am practicing a lot lately mostly because I get new motivation which was kinda lost.
I do try to put up some vids soon though.
I'm super happy to hear this :). I'm blushing right now! :D

Keep practicing bro, I'm glad that you got back that motivation. And sure thing. I'll be right here to help you out in any way I can!
 

TSM ZeRo

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i wasnt refering to rain using nado vs ic's.

i mean he used it vs GAW check it out 2nd game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iruu1dOr7Cc&feature=relmfu
But I did said how to do it vs GW:

"The only way to really get him, is to do a grounded tornado, and then rise, just like the tornado I did here vs Ally: (Pay attention to when Ally N-Airs in his first stock, and I tornado below him, those are the safest tornados vs GW from my exp with the MU): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6B3Z8-2M9w "
 

ninjapenguin

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How do you break out of grabs? Is it just button mashing, or is there a certain technique to it, like rolling the c-stick/pushing certain buttons? This would help me very much lol
 

Myollnir

Smash Ace
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Thanks a lot ZeRo, you really helped me. :)

You know what you're talking about, that's for sure! :p

I'll definitely come again here if I have others things to ask (if you don't mind obviously).
 

TSM ZeRo

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How do you break out of grabs? Is it just button mashing, or is there a certain technique to it, like rolling the c-stick/pushing certain buttons? This would help me very much lol
There's a lot of things about this, actually:

Check out this thread for in-depth information:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=315154&

(Make sure to watch the video in Bionic's post, too)

Thanks a lot ZeRo, you really helped me. :)

You know what you're talking about, that's for sure! :p

I'll definitely come again here if I have others things to ask (if you don't mind obviously).
No problem bro! And sure, feel free to come back and ask anything whenever you want/need!
 

BlueXenon

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Thankyou for the help. I know I have a big problem with never air dodging. I think not air dodging in the air gives marth the advantage because its easier to juggle mk if you know he will always attack and never air dodge.
 

GOofyGV

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Zero I got an other question

I do space my nado pretty bad pretty often and light characters keep getting out of my tornado how can I solve that?

and I actualy get why you like helping people now :)
I like it myself as well.
 

TSM ZeRo

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Thankyou for the help. I know I have a big problem with never air dodging. I think not air dodging in the air gives marth the advantage because its easier to juggle mk if you know he will always attack and never air dodge.
Precisely. The same can be said the otherway around: If you air dodge too much, he can always delay his attacks, and still combo you. This is one of the hard things about Brawl: You have to not only read if he's gonna attack or not, but also the timing of that attack!

Zero I got an other question

I do space my nado pretty bad pretty often and light characters keep getting out of my tornado how can I solve that?

and I actualy get why you like helping people now :)
I like it myself as well.
You can do it two ways:

1.- Quoting my comment above: "The only way to really get him, is to do a grounded tornado, and then rise, just like the tornado I did here vs Ally: (Pay attention to when Ally N-Airs in his first stock, and I tornado below him, those are the safest tornados vs GW from my exp with the MU): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6B3Z8-2M9w "

2.- You have to do a short hopped tornado over their head, and catch the light character with the bottom part of the tornado. This position, means that if they DI up (usual direction to get out) they will move towards the center of the tornado, and receive max damage! Depending of the height of the character, if they DI down, you will still hit them with tornado (For example, Lucario) because they're tall enough to get caught again. This isn't the case with GW/Small characters.

Another way is to hit them with a SH tornado, and hit them with one of the sides of the tornado, and mash B according to their DI. (If they don't DI, mash B to hold a stable height, if they do DI, mash B fast enough to catch them as they try to DI up, if they DI down, mash B slowly enough so you "slowly" go down with them.

This is the hardest tornado to master, and requires a bunch of practice and also of the "feeling" of Tornado'ing different kinds of characters. It also requires a good understanding of the situation to analyze what kind of tornado will work in this situation.

And I'm glad that we're similar in that aspect bro :).
 

TSM ZeRo

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BlueXenon

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Thankyou but the allisbrawl ladder is inactive right now, idk why, it used to be extremely active. I try to use the free play chat, but everyone there is looking for a doubles. When i find people to play in the thread sometimes they give me advice that helps.
 

TSM ZeRo

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Thankyou but the allisbrawl ladder is inactive right now, idk why, it used to be extremely active. I try to use the free play chat, but everyone there is looking for a doubles. When i find people to play in the thread sometimes they give me advice that helps.
It's because the "joke" ladder is on. The joke ladder is the ladder that goes down while the playoffs are being played.

I'd reccomend you to wait for the next season and try to get top 30 in the ladder of that season. Play everyday with everyone. I'll guarantee that you will become a much better player by doing so.
 

BlueXenon

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When I start playing, i will probably have a terrible losing record, would anyone want to play me if my record is something like 2-15?
 
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