Critiques Needed for a Marth Main

[Hinryu]

Yo everyone!!

I just started playing this game competitively over the summer, and was hoping you guys could give me some advice or whatnot with my Marth. I have found that I am really bad at versus Falcos, because the lasers destroy me.

We have local tournies where I live and have been getting second place most of the time. I really want to get better with Marth, so if you have any advice I could use it! Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BWWT7hIPDA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2AJxWOnzec

Those are from last Saturday. So if you can help me out I'd appreciate it!

I'm also really thinking about having Fox as my second, is that a good idea?

 

[ChivalRuse]

I don't think I saw you ledgehop once. Ledgehopping/ledgedashing is a million times better than the standard ledge options.

Also, you need to grab more. Fsmash less. Dtilt more. Side b less.

Doc's pills are annoying. Learn the timing for when you can counter them into him. Also, swatting them with jabs/fairs is pretty good.

Also, it's very important that you don't full jump often. Marth is fairly vulnerable when the opponent is below him (at least, considerably more than when he's on the ground). Try not to jump as much, but dash dance if the lack of pill spam permits it.

Overall not bad. Grats on getting to GFs.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

play smarter. you have your techs down but you have no idea what they are used for. there really isn't a top level marth main to learn from anymore, but dark sonic is probably the closest thing to that.

marth is probably the hardest top tier character to learn to play, sheik and fox being the easiest. you might do better to learn how those characters work before you try doing it with marth

all in all, just travel to larger tournaments and you will get better, guaranteed.

specifics:
dash dance long and smooth, and mix in fox trots and pivots. you are safe as long as you can dash out of the way and pivot grab their approach.

if they are pill spamming, or trying to space you in general, just switch to controlling the stage with fairs and use retreating nair if they try rolling into you.

if you want to edgeguard doc really well, grab the edge and bair him out of his jump. it will probably be more consistant than trying to fsmash or dtilt, because of how good doc's upb is.

 

[Hinryu]

Ah thanks for the help.

I will use this to help get my Marth up to par. Right now I want to concentrate on him, but I do play Fox/Falco occasionally when I get bored.

I know I really need to work on my edgeguarding and whatnot. That's what I'm working on now.

@Sveet - How could I play smarter?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah you do need to get a better movement game. Dashdance more. Sure, it's tempting to just sit there and slash away all approaches, but it's not really practical.

There's also the idea of doing things that are worth it.

For example, if you throw out an fsmash in the middle of Yoshi's Story against Doc at twenty percent, what do you gain? If you connect - even with a tipper - he's probably not going to die, and you're not going to start a combo with it. If you miss, you get punished. Instead, use less punishable, higher reward moves like grabs and airs and such.

EDIT: You NEED to save your doublejump. Especially against bair gimping Docs, if you get hit out of your doublejump, you're gone. Again, yeah, you can do your little Counter trick and get seven percent or maybe even connect with a fair for thirteen or so, but it's not nearly worth it.

Also, stop dash attacking so much. Seriously. There's almost always a better option

 

[Hinryu]

Thanks eleven I'll keep that in mind. I don't really know why i was jumping around when the Doc was coming back from his stock. Just from habit, same with the dash attacks.

I've been working on the whole dash dancing thing I guess I shouldn't dash dance so fast like that, and close to the edge eh?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Also, stop dash attacking so much. Seriously. There's almost always a better option

Like running dtilt. Like, dude, this move is godly. Learn to abuse it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, Marth isn't as fast as you'd think he is. His shffl isn't very fast and his jabs and tilts and such tend to be a little slower than that of most chars, so you really want to be efficient. Dashdancing isn't just there to look cool (although, if done properly, it does look pretty sweet) it's there for spacing and mindgames and baiting and positioning. Learn it, love it, use it, abuse it.

Also, dear God, the dtilt rocks as an approach. It's so nice against hmmm... Falcon, Falco... anyone, really. Dtilt goes into grab pretty well, and it also sends in a way such that you can pressure them back towards the edge, which is always a good thing for Marth.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

when i say play smarter i mean don't do things with no purpose. when you dash dance, what are you doing? are you using it to be mobile or because you see other people dash dance there?

i liked the begining of the first stock, you were using WD OoS to jab. its a really nice, safe option.

if he leaves the ground, space fairs on him all day long. on the ground use dash dance grab and dtilt. the match-up should be really simple for marth.

 

[ChivalRuse]

if he leaves the ground, space fairs on him all day long. on the ground use dash dance grab and dtilt. the match-up should be really simple for marth.

In terms of what you need for the match-up, yes, I'd say simple. (I assume we're still talking about Marth/Doc.) But it can be annoying, with Doc's pills and throw > kobe. You just need to pressure him so he can't spam all day; and have good spacing to avoid shield grabs/DD grabs.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If Doc gets above you, he shouldn't come down from Uairs very easily at all.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Doc's dair is pretty huge though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

naw, if you hit doc, you should combo him pretty hard. Just fair fair fair fair off the stage and then edge guard. He made it back to the stage? Fair him a few more times and see how he feels. Thats my strategy at least lol. I find doc can't really deal with marth's range once you know how to fair through pills.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

As fast as fair comes out, it still has a bit of cooldown lag, so if spaced properly, the Doc can still punish you even after you fair through their pill.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ideally you retreating fair through pills and wait for the distance between you and Doc to be correct to allow you to dash under the pills and close in enough that Doc feels threatened and has to temporarily cease the barrage. Ugh. But pills have such a tricky trajectory. It perturbs me how much I fail to find openings in FH pill spam. X_X

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if they FH pill you can walk under the bounce (this is what i usually do)

i dont even stop to hit pills unless they are SH or standing (doc WANTS you to jump over the pills)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I find it's not so bad when you're on a stage with platforms that can act as shields/conduits for platform dashing.

But that might just be me.

 

[datstupidmarth]

I find it's not so bad when you're on a stage with platforms that can act as shields/conduits for platform dashing.

But that might just be me.

i think it would help to be more technical wave dash through pills and grab

 

[R.I.Y.P.]

Except that you would still get hit by pills as they bounce around. Plus they can just wd back after the fh or sh pill, causing you to miss the grab.

 

[datstupidmarth]

if your good enough at wave dash you shouldn't have to much of a problem with it

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Untrue. You can't wavedash through standing pills, no matter how well you wavedash.

 

[Niko45]

You can just jab the pills and approach extremely slowly until you close the distance. This will force doc to approach in which case you can jab pill > DD away/wavedash back and punish. If he gets enough start up time he will end up catching up to the pill as he charges in which case you need to retreating fair to hit both doc and the pill at the same time. Dtilt in general is good until you start just getting flat out faired in your face. I don't use often. I prefer to nair in place since it covers both the short hop and ground approach. Like mentioned sneaking under the pill at its height is really good.

And anybody who thinks edgeguarding doc is easy is playing a terrible doc. Doc will get back if he pills and DIs correctly. Doc vs Marth is actually a pretty advanced matchup for Marth.

Also, perfectly spaced Dash attack > running dtilt always.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I disagree. Dash attack lets them wavedash out of shield and grab you. Dtilt they can't do that against. Plus dtilts can lead into grabs.

 

[Niko45]

"Always" may have been a little too far, but...

Generally speaking, not just doc specifically:

Dtilts do not lead into grabs unless you're talking about them being caught off guard and shielding after the dtilt which is a case of them not being good.

On the contrary, Dash attack leads to utter ****. Now vs doc specifically, I could be wrong but I have never been WD out grabbed after the perfect dash attack. The lag isn't as bad as people think. Similarly to a tip fsmash, they can't get there before I sidestep/roll/dash away (could be wrong about that too).

Anyway running dtilt is really obvious, and has almost no payoff against good players. I would never blatantly approach with either move tho.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dtilt is amazing as an approach. it is almost impossible to punish because you can dash dance out of the iasa frames. the only way to punish it is to be jumping at marth with an attack while he thinks you're on the ground and dtilts you.

 

[Niko45]

It's really easy to anticipate and just aerial in place right on top of it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Don't be predictable then. You can wavedash into it too, you don't have to do it out of a run.

 

[Niko45]

Marth should pretty much never be approaching ever.

Running dtilt was the argument. Takes too long to get there, they have too much time IE too many options to react. Once you run past your DD range you can either dtilt, shield, or wavedash. All limiting and you are likely now out of position without good options. By the time you get there you could have a shielding opponent in your face, he could be on a platform, or he could just shffl in place to punish. This only works on players who are DD camping and have no other plan but to DD grab. Plus, if you don't run them all the way to the edge before the dtilt, they can STILL DD grab you.

Yes don't be predictable. Use it literally once a match against DD campers only. Hardly an "amazing" approach.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Okay, I can agree with pretty much all of that.

How does that make dash attack better, though?

 

[Niko45]

You don't need to wait til ur past ur DD and again more lucrative follow ups. Like, really lucrative. Problem is it can be CC tech'd early on. Still a really good move tho. Like I said I've never seen anyone WD out grab dash attack I think it's not laggy enough. As far as knowing for sure that seems like something you'd be more likely to know than me.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

You can do it for sure, I looked up the frames =P

It doesn't get wavegrabbed because it usually either lands or gets straight up grabbed.

I don't disagree that dash attack is good if you can connect with it, I just think dtilt - in all situations where you could use either - is safer, with similar returns.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Niko, you can't be punished for dtilt as long as you dtilt for a tipper. They will 1) not be able to shield grab, 2) not be able to hit you with an aerial (they are too far away/you shouldn't be dtilting if they are in the air already coming at you)

dash attack is good but you should use it a LOT less.