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Critique my Sonic....

Coffee™

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I've been playing Sonic for about 3 weeks to a month now, he's not my main but just someone who I play for fun / low tier tournaments. These are a couple vids of my Sonic in a few friendlies that I had at a recent tournament. Take a look at them and tell me what you think I need to work on?

R@vYn (Sonic) vs Calibur Champ (Pokemon Trainer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS7boO5L050

R@vYn (Sonic) vs Snipa (Samus)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXTRAi4y_fk

R@vYn (Sonic) vs Snipa (Samus) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BUhytwzpLA
 

Kinzer

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Needs moar side-taunt.

Sillyness aside, here's what I think could use some improvement.

Needs moar Blue Blur.

Okay but seriously this time, from your first video I saw a lot of your "recoup" approaches against Charizard were direct SDRs. By recoup I mean like trying to get into a more favorable position after being hit. That's bad, especially when you're going up against ROCK SMASH! as a side-character... yes, it is that good. If you're going to go into ball form at the very least use Spinshots so that you hover over the boulder. If they start picking up on that then feel free to mix it up but I suppose what I just now works for those who love to spam that Side-B.

3:57 You're punishing Charizard's Fly with a forward smash. This would work maybe if you were a little bit closer and if Charizard was at killing %ages. Try FTilting at low %ages, it's a good habit.

4:39 made me sadface. I suppose under pressure most people would probably react like that too, however from what I could see you still had your second jump, and if you were aiming more for the stage than the ledge, you probably still could've made it with the Spring. If that had not worked you probably could've had a shot a walljumping the lip and at the very worst you could've hit Charizard. So many recovery options, too many for me to think of and still mention, don't panic, and just keep your cool next time around.

5:05 Don't worry about fakeouts when your opponent is nowhere near, their first priority is not gonna be worrying about what you're doing on ground unless it's a side-taunt to punish you, just go straight for that Spring into Uair if you must, read where necessary (some like to airdodge, some like to hit you back/to the ceiling, I'm sure you're aware of this.)

The end of that first video needed a taunt to end it in style but I'll let that slide.

Second video you start off with an hyphen USmash... with your opponent on the other side... any reason? I even see you doing this later in the video.

Now this is my personal opinion, but I find rolling/spotdodge near useless with Sonic, I find it much easier to punish my opponents if I just hold my shield throughout the whole ordeal and go from there. You aren't in any immediate danger when you're in that bubble, and Samus's grabgame is not that good... except maybe her pummel which is pretty fast for decaying her moveset but that's besides the point.

3:47 Alright hold it! Do you know how to counteract momentum? Do you know how to momentum cancel with Sonic? If either of the answer is no let me put it this way: Fair -> FF (you might not need this, I don't know) -> ASC = extra time alive on the stage with the stock you're currently on.

Throughout the whole video you get hit by lots of Zairs, I think SHADing works wonders on this, and with Sonic's speed you can usually get away with just shield-dashing. For me I probably get Hella lucky with those Zair PSs and proceed to punish from there.

That last number was a whole mess... I just noticed that and now I think the above applies even more now then I did when I first typed that up.

Third vidja okay here we go.

:27 needed moar DTilts. It may give Sonic 100% damage since DTilts break Sonic but it would've been worth the risk to hit Samus with something right there instead of rolling onto/behind her.

Also don't try to cancel Sonic's jab into anything, it is bad with low/no hitstun, no range, and only 2% per punch with 3% at the kick. Go ahead and add that up on your free time... however I don't want to shun you away from jab,s it does have it's moments... but not at that moment.

At 1:21 you didn't necessarily have to jump cancel the what was then an ASC. It's wierd how the transition works but luckily Infzy here found out that from an aerial Spindash turns to a SpinDash Roll when landing on the ground, and should you take the air again, it turns into an Aerial Spin Charge, and this move is the sex.

4:17 :mad:

At the end of the video you have learned a very important lesson... HA is bad. If you intentionally used it, you're doing it wrong. I'm almost sure you didn't mean to do it since your flow got interrupted but let's see. You could've shortened it's start-up lag 1/2 if you just pressed the B-button again (don't get any ideas, it's still slow), and you could've moved a bit more to the left to perhaps avoided that UTilt... maybe... I dunno I can't tell HA is crap.

There's mah 2cents, hope it helped.

P.S. for further videos of Sonic please refer to the Winning Steak Cinemas.
 

aeghrur

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Sorry for not bumping this thread, but next time if you have other vids, please post them here http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7154318#post7154318

As for critique:

1. Based on the first match, I feel that your sonic's spacing is... very loose.
Like, at 4:15, you VSDJ a lot... but what's the point? You're not in a position to punish the reaction, if there is one at all. In the end, it looked more like he baited you than you baited him, then you finished with a laggy-fair. This puts you in risk, not him. With this loose spacing, your not pressuring them at all. Make sure your close enough to punish his lag, but far enough to not get hit. That's when you should try the spin fake-outs, the dash fake-outs and stuff. =/
Also, I noticed you charging F-smash near the edge... but that's not really good because he wasn't really in range to get hit. If he just stood up, even with the disjoint, I doubt he would've gotten hit.
And finally, don't roll too much. After that F-smash thing whiff against squirtle, you could've ran IMO. If you ran and he still U-B'd due to reaction, you could've punished.
Although, I do like your spring mindgames. xD

2: Momentum canceling. Yours is incorrect. You bair+fastfall and that's it. No, no, Sonic has a GOOD momentum cancel. Fair+Fastfall+Down-b afterwards with correct DI and you can survive to at least 130% :p. Look at Espy, the dude lives to like 200 pretty often, lol.
Also, I noticed you approached samus on the edge with spindash. No offense, but not a good idea. =/

Don't really have anything else to add for the third. =/ It's pretty good. :p Overall, your sonic is pretty nice, very good for someone who's only been playing for 3 weeks. :p

:093:

:093:
 

Coffee™

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4:39 made me sadface. I suppose under pressure most people would probably react like that too, however from what I could see you still had your second jump, and if you were aiming more for the stage than the ledge, you probably still could've made it with the Spring. If that had not worked you probably could've had a shot a walljumping the lip and at the very worst you could've hit Charizard. So many recovery options, too many for me to think of and still mention, don't panic, and just keep your cool next time around.
Well it was kind of wierd for me. I main Pit the only character whose jump doesn't meteor cancel iirc so normally I'm just used to using Up B immediately after a jump haha. I have to remember thats only Pit specific xD next time.

Second video you start off with an hyphen USmash... with your opponent on the other side... any reason? I even see you doing this later in the video.
Just fooling around with any Usmash you see there. I generally never use the move. I've never really found it that helpful :ohwell:

At 1:21 you didn't necessarily have to jump cancel the what was then an ASC. It's wierd how the transition works but luckily Infzy here found out that from an aerial Spindash turns to a SpinDash Roll when landing on the ground, and should you take the air again, it turns into an Aerial Spin Charge, and this move is the sex.
Never knew that. I'll hopefully remember it next time. Sonic has way too much little things to keep up with:laugh:

What did I do bad at 4:17?

At the end of the video you have learned a very important lesson... HA is bad. If you intentionally used it, you're doing it wrong. I'm almost sure you didn't mean to do it since your flow got interrupted but let's see. You could've shortened it's start-up lag 1/2 if you just pressed the B-button again (don't get any ideas, it's still slow), and you could've moved a bit more to the left to perhaps avoided that UTilt... maybe... I dunno I can't tell HA is crap.
I didn't actually mean to use HA. Thats kinda why it ended up like that :(

There's mah 2cents, hope it helped.
Pretty informative :)


1. Based on the first match, I feel that your sonic's spacing is... very loose.
Like, at 4:15, you VSDJ a lot... but what's the point?
Every time I talk to a Sonic main I swear I have to go looking at some sticky to figure out what you're saying with all your acronyms :laugh:

Momentum canceling. Yours is incorrect. You bair+fastfall and that's it. No, no, Sonic has a GOOD momentum cancel. Fair+Fastfall+Down-b afterwards with correct DI and you can survive to at least 130% :p.
Never knew it. I'll keep that in mind next time

Don't really have anything else to add for the third. =/ It's pretty good. :p Overall, your sonic is pretty nice, very good for someone who's only been playing for 3 weeks. :p
Thanks :)
 

Kinzer

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Ya used FSmash again, decaying it and not using FTilt. :mad:

P.S. VSDJ is short for Vertical Spindash Jump, you've been doing it yourself as seen in the first match so no worry on it's input.
 

ROOOOY!

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I watched the first match against Calibur Champ.

My biggest peeves are the texture hax.

Shadow sucks.
And Squirtle needed a red bandana and shades.

========

Look up spinshotting. I don't know if you already know about it but didn't use it, but ehh. It's good against big characters that use projectiles like Dedede, Charizard etc. Good for closing the gap, can be attacked out of.

Only two things really hit me when I was watching that. The first was pretty minor. Especially towards the start of the match, I didn't really see any effort to get the opponent offstage, and once they were offstage I didn't see much variety in edgeguarding techniques outside advancing fairs and dairs. Spring is pretty deadly offstage against many characters, retreating fairs work very well at higher %'s as well (as you're retreating, you're more likely to hit with the final hitbox on his head, the one with the most knockback)

The second was your actions around mid-long range. Fake the opponent out a little by running back and forth, try to draw punishable mistakes out from the player. Your VSDJ's just after the 4 minute mark, whilst fun to watch, didn't really help much. A simple spindash shield canel may have baited something out for you to go and capitalize on with a grab.

As for non-Sonic specific things, I noticed your spacing was pretty off at several points. That's probably just down to lack of experience with the character though, it'll get better over time. In fact, all my points can be allieviated by just practicing. For example, my second gripe is just naturally learnt as you pick up opponent habits, and learn what they can be punished with.

So really the only advice I can give is to keep on practicing, but practice with many different people.

Our points above are just things to keep in your mind whilst playing, really.
 

thecatinthehat

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I'm sorry, but I didnt watch them (yet).

I'll edit this post when I get a chance to watch.

For now, spinshot moar is my only advice.

:093:
 

Tenki

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At 1:21 you didn't necessarily have to jump cancel the what was then an ASC. It's wierd how the transition works but luckily Infzy here found out that from an aerial Spindash turns to a SpinDash Roll when landing on the ground, and should you take the air again, it turns into an Aerial Spin Charge, and this move is the sex.
Infzy didn't find that.

<- ;p

He did put it into video though lol.

R@vYn (Sonic) vs Calibur Champ (Pokemon Trainer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS7boO5L050
I haven't watched the videos yet but...

hey, CC was the one who found side-B shield cancelling/also worked with SDR>footstool chains (SLOW)

lol cool.
 

Coffee™

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Ya used FSmash again, decaying it and not using FTilt. :mad:
Lol sorry. At low percents that doesn't seem like such a bad thing though. Sonic normally gets a number of opportunities to refresh his kill moves through his ...... everything else. I find I normally use Dsmash to kill more than Fsmash as well. :ohwell:

My biggest peeves are the texture hax.

Shadow sucks.
Sorry but you just lost all credibility in my book :mad:

Look up spinshotting. I don't know if you already know about it but didn't use it, but ehh. It's good against big characters that use projectiles like Dedede, Charizard etc. Good for closing the gap, can be attacked out of.

I know what it is but I'm still kinda getting used to it. I'll keep this stuff in mind.


Rest of your post
All good stuff and pretty good critique in general.
 

Kinzer

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Well DSmash does hit both sides, and as far as killing Marth from the center of the stage with no DI goes, it's only about 10% weaker. It punishes spotdges easier and isn't that much slower than FSmash in terms of non-ending lag speed. I could see why you would get the feeling though, and I see the logic with the refresh, but I guess that's just me being a opportunist for lack of a better term.
 

Jim Morrison

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I don't really care about using F-smash at 50%, cause it'll be long refreshed when my opponent is at 110%. Spinshot is indeed a good option. Your F-tilts are good, well spaced, but you should try D-tilts. They put your opponent in position to get D-tilt chained at low % and juggled (U-air perhaps) at higher %. You need to cover you upper half more with U-smash/tilts. F-air ***** big chars.
I only saw the first vid.

Your Sonic would beat mine, except for the little fact that you played Shadow.
 

Tenki

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I don't really care about using F-smash at 50%, cause it'll be long refreshed when my opponent is at 140%.


fix

because if you want to assume your opponent has morebetters DI then you wanna make sure they die when they get hit lol


also, if you do other moves than kill moves at 100%, then you can set up more chances for hits and other things that might get them off guard.
 

aeghrur

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Iirc, Dsmash has IASA frames. :p
I love that about it, quick ending. xD
Though, Kinzer's right, beginning lag is a bit more that f-smash isn't it?
Also, less range. =/
And can't be tilted up to hit air like F-smash can. =O

:093:
 

GwJ

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I agree with what the others posted. You need some more Bair as it autocancels when you hit the stage. Make sure you diversify your kill moves. You seemed a little predictable. You also need some more mindgames. As I'm sure any Sonic main will agree, Sonic is chock full of mindgame potential. As I have experience (lolololol) Sonic is a very good gamer of the mind. He can spinshot but then decide not to then hit you. He can also use his side B, but not, then hit you. He can use his down b, decide not to, then hit you. He can also use his up b, hit you in the process of Up b'ing, then hit you again with a dair.
 

Boxob.

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If those are online matches, you forgot to make your taunt says Boxobeast or Boxobair.

If they're offline, you forgot to make your taunt say the same.

If you want to learn sonic and truly be good with him, you'll find a way to make it happen.

Failure to do so will only indicate a lack of dedication.

:093:
 

Coffee™

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Your F-tilts are good, well spaced, but you should try D-tilts. They put your opponent in position to get D-tilt chained at low % and juggled (U-air perhaps) at higher %. You need to cover you upper half more with U-smash/tilts
Is Sonic's Dtilt even remotely good? I've seen it link into itself at lower percentages, but the damage output from it in the end isn't more than hitting with a normal spindash "combo" and it seems slow in general, maybe I'm just bias towards it. As far as Usmash goes I'm kinda iffy about it but I can see you're logic about it covering aerial approaches. Utilt is kinda bad though. It has good damage output but it's slow and has so little range. Does it combo from Dtilt? I think so, but aside from that I hardly ever see a time it's worth using over something else.

I agree with what the others posted. You need some more Bair as it autocancels when you hit the stage. Make sure you diversify your kill moves.
Sonic's Dsmash Fsmash and Bair are all fairly predictable and Bair tends to get staled a lot. I agree I do need to use Bair more so thx for pointing that out but as far as diversfication goes, you might need to elaborate on how thats really possible :laugh:
 

Umby

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Using dtilt is almost as much about spacing as ftilt is, save that it can link into any of his other tilts or a grab. I usually go for dtilt-> dtilt-> grab.

If you want to abuse bair, I just think of it as using it in a fashion similar to Marth's fair. Use it for spacing and influencing a defensive move from the opponent.
 

CaliburChamp

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Infzy didn't find that.

<- ;p

He did put it into video though lol.



I haven't watched the videos yet but...

hey, CC was the one who found side-B shield cancelling/also worked with SDR>footstool chains (SLOW)

lol cool.
That's me. I think R@vyn should side b cancel more, with a certain amount of timing, it will actually boost Sonic forward a bit for an easier shield grab. I actually wanted to get my Sonic recorded, but the Pokemon Trainer hacked costumes looked too awesome.

I played bad, I should of used more Flamethrower, F-air and D-tilt with Charizard.
 

Kinzer

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Bair will be decayed, other than Uair which is only good for those really vertical approachers, nothing comes close. At least Fair is pretty good for wake-ups on platforms/offstage play/using after a bait.

Move-refreshing is why pummels are the sex.

I don't know where you get the idea of DTilt being slow though, perhaps it's the illusion from the ending lag when you whiff it, but this can be taken care of with proper spacing + everything Umby said concerning it.
 
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