Creative Ways of Charging Solar Beam

[SciFiGuy]

Ivysaur is unique in which parts of a stage or an opponent's (or teammate's) moveset can help Ivysaur charge Solar Beam. If a stage has something which you can "hit" then by using a sweetspotted uair, dair, or usmash this helps Ivysaur charge Solar Beam.

Below is a list of stages and characters and how they can help Ivysaur charge Solar Beam. I'll admit that I don't exactly have Project M so I don't know the exact stage list in the current version of it as well as how some projectiles work, so we can work together as a section on this! I kinda sorta just turned on Brawl and Melee and went through and thought about stuff, so yeah

When we have everything put together, I think the best thing to do would be to make two videos. One showing the different stages and their parts and the other focusing on characters.

Stages

Smashville (Balloon)
Yoshi's Island (Brawl) (Shy Guys)

Mario Circuit (karts)
Shadow Moses Island (Walls)
Flat Zone II (Garage characters and Chef character)
Summit (ice platform and icicle)

Yoshi's Island (Melee) (Spinning Blocks)
Brinstar (Middle left/right platform supports)
Corneria (Gun)

If the developers decide to add Shy Guys to Yoshi's Story in the future then that could help out Ivysaur as well!

In custom stage creator, are there any destructible/hittable parts which can be used?


Characters

For the characters section, most of my ideas are that you can attack some projectiles and therefore Ivysaur can benefit from this. However, this needs to be tested. The ones with question marks are the ones I'm not sure about.

Dedede (Waddle Dees)
Peach (Turnips?)
Samus (Missles/small Charge Shot?)
Mario (Fireballs?)
Pikachu (Thunderjolt?)
Link (Boomerang? Grounded Arrows?)
Toon Link (Boomerang? Grounded Arrows?)
Sheik (Grounded Needles?)
Yoshi (Eggs?)
Lucario (Small Aura Sphere?)
Snake (Cypher, Grenades) (probably not a good idea to hit the grenades though haha)
ROB (Gyro)

Other Creative Uses

Other creative uses in different modes could be in Break the Targets, Home-run Contest, SSE (does charge carry over from area to area?) and All-Star Mode (I'm interested if Ivy's charge carries over from round to round, I doubt it does though)

 

[Limeee]

i doubt most of those projectiles will charge, based on the fact that it will clank and they dont have hp

however testing may lead to something interesting

wolfs lasers should just clank with the hitbox

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I'll go over this only mentioning things I've tested or seen work.

Stages

Smashville (Balloon) - Yes
Yoshi's Island (Brawl) (Shy Guys) - Yes

Castle Siege (if it isn't frozen) (2nd part of it, destructible statues) - The second part of the stage was removed, only the first and third remain.
WarioWare (if it isn't frozen) (Chisel It, Pop It) Might be other minigames too - Minigames were removed
Skyworld (Destructible platforms) - Platforms are no longer destructible
Shadow Moses Island (Walls) Since they are to the left and right I doubt uair or dair can be used to sweetspot them, maybe when they respawn they can be though? - Uair and Usmash work, haven't tried dair but this stage isn't legal anyway
Green Hill Zone (Spinner and middle destructible part of stage) - Stage was completely redone, all the attackable parts were removed.

Brinstar (Middle left/right platform supports) - Yes, these all work. Brinstar would by our best stage but it'll probably be banned everywhere.

Characters

Dedede (Waddle Dees) - Yes
Peach (Turnips?) - Probably, haven't tested though
Samus (Missles/small Charge Shot?) - missiles maybe, otherwise no
Mario (Fireballs?) - probably not
Pikachu (Thunderjolt?) - probably not
Link (Boomerang? Grounded Arrows?) - probably not
Toon Link (Boomerang, Grounded Arrows?) - probably not
Sheik (Grounded Needles?) - probably not
Yoshi (Eggs?) - probably not
Lucario (Small Aura Sphere?) - probably not
Snake (Cypher, Granades) (probably not a good idea to hit the grenades though haha) - maybe, but prob not a good idea cuz you'll end up just taking back the damage you healed, or more damage
Pit (Arrows?) - no
Wolf (Lasers?) - no
ROB (Gyro?) - Yes

 

[standardtoaster]

Luigi's mansion is dracula's castle now, scifiguy.

 

[Life]

Mushroomy, Eldin, New Pork, Hanenbow, Mario Bros, Distant Planet, Green Greens, and the Skyworld platforms are also all gone. And you didn't mention it, but so is the Norfair capsule.

(PMBR loves its static stages...)

 

[Kink-Link5]

Sheik's needles have HP.

A creative way to charge the move though, hitting stage parts is not.

Getting in increments of 1% here and there between hits is probably the closest you'll get to creative use of the move to charge the attack, heal bits of HP, and frustrate an opponent into approaching more recklessly than they need to.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Her new Nuetral b has a small hitbox to the front of her sorta like bullet seed's.

Only it feels smaller and knocks them away rather then towards you.
The knockback is pretty pitiful and you'd probably only get time for 1 point of charge at best.

I'm not sure about the frame data on it.
Hey it could make a good reversal if it's quick enough!

but, sadly that's all I got. =/

 

[SciFiGuy]

Thanks for everyone's inputs so far! OP has been updated with it all so far.

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah u can actually get a good 3 or 4 health if u can wavebounce neutral B after hitting them with it. it quickly bolts you away from them and they get hit, so it buys you some time.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I can confirm that Link's bombs, if sweetspotted with a bulb attack, WILL charge Ivy's Solarbeam.

 

[Generically Epic]

All about that Solar Beam

Alright sense Solar Beam is Ivysaurs ultimate killing machine of dooooooom. Let's talk about Combo-ing into it.


The combo I use is a tad predictable, but down throw into solar beam works at low percentages. (Same works for B-Up combo)
Dash attack into Solar Beam can work if timed.

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah those two are practically made for it. theyre good cuz they can easily be connected with via tech chase. but sometimes u can up throw them and time the jump into solar beam, or u can upsmash witch actully sends them at a slight angle. the sweet spot on dtilt might actually work at higher percents as well, as i usually use that to combo into grab or upsmash. additionly, at certain percents u can use dair to take advantage of the lateral control u have after connecting with an opponent on the ground, and line the opponent up with ur solar beam.

 

[mustardpi314]

SHFFL'd Uair could be used, if you read the DI properly.
maybe even a "tipper" fair.

 

[Sudai]

Basically everything that puts them above you leads in to solar beam. You just have to read their DI. If they DI away you get a solar beam, if they don't, you get to continue the combo.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Basically everything that puts them above you leads in to solar beam. You just have to read their DI. If they DI away you get a solar beam, if they don't, you get to continue the combo.

This is exactly it.

I've Combo'd every throw and every Aerial except Bair into Solarbeam at some point.

 

[JOE!]

@Bair: have you tried B-reversing it after the vines hit?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

@Bair: have you tried B-reversing it after the vines hit?

The main reason I can't connect with it is because A. it never sends them at the right trajectory and B. at high percents I prefer grabs/other aerials.

 

[Sudai]

BAir is great at high percents. Sends them flying off the stage for edge guards. That said connecting a solar beam off of it is pretty rare from my experience.

 

[G13_Flux]

i think the good thing about ivysaur is that she isnt reliant on solar beam to kill. much of her game centralizes on charging it, but its not limiting. she still has usmash, fsmash, dair, the occasional vine whip, and edge guarding tactics. solar beam is great for platform play as well, and can cover almost all of their options if u set up a tech chase on one.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Here's something worth keeping in mind--

When you hold Neutral-B, any healing past the first one (second 1%, third 1%, etc.) has very little endlag. As a result, it is noticeably faster to hold B for 2%, let go, and almost immediately charge again, repeatedly.

Instead of going, "1....2....3....4....5....", it will go, "1....2-3....4-5...." Takes a little getting used to, but it's definitely more efficient that way.

 

[G13_Flux]

wow thats interesting. good manipulation of frame data right there. might be a stupid question but does that work aerially too? like is the end lag for synthesis in the air the same as on ground? i say that because some aerial attacks (fox and falcos aerials are great examples of this) have much less endlag landing on the ground than they do if u were to wait out the full attack in the air. maybe that has more to do with IASA frames, but does a similar situation apply to ivysaurs neutral B?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I believe it's the same in the air as on the ground.

 

[bubbaking]

Yes, that is VERY useful. Time to spam this.

 

[chenjesu]

How is b-reversal? I feel like it could set up useful mindgames, while still charging, but I haven't tested it in battle.

 

[bubbaking]

I don't know about for Solarbeam charging, but I know B-reverse seed bombs are really good.

 

[chenjesu]

I feel like b-reverse bair could be really good for edgeguarding.

 

[bubbaking]

That is a 100% inaccurate statement.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I feel like b-reverse bair could be really good for edgeguarding.

Thing is, it's fairly powerful, and it sends people out at a reasonably low angle. Thing is, though, unless it's all you need for the KO, you're often better off doing another move, like F-Air -> other aerial or fastfalled U-Air. Her aerials are very versatile and extremely good for edgeguarding; I would recommend experimenting with RAR'd B-Air (B-Reverse is something different; you're talking about Reverse Aerial Rush) for it.

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, I disagree with that first part (agree with everything else though). Bair is really good for gimping. It's probably her best aerial for edgeguaring. It leads into itself and you can cover soooo many recovery avenues with it. Just fall with your opponent and when they commit, bair them. Ivy's upB tether is deceivingly long. She can go really far out for it. Against spacees and major tether recoverers, including opposing Ivys, bair literally gives me some of the most free edgeguards in the world. I was just playing the Ivy vs Fox MU yesterday against a decent Fox and Ivy kinda shut down his recovery.

 

[chenjesu]

didn't even know RAR was a real tech... I come from melee, you kids and your "b-sticking," get off my lawn, etc.

 

[leelue]

Here's something worth keeping in mind--

When you hold Neutral-B, any healing past the first one (second 1%, third 1%, etc.) has very little endlag. As a result, it is noticeably faster to hold B for 2%, let go, and almost immediately charge again, repeatedly.

Instead of going, "1....2....3....4....5....", it will go, "1....2-3....4-5...." Takes a little getting used to, but it's definitely more efficient that way.

I hope this gets fixed to be something that makes proper sense by demo 3. This is pretty silly, but currently good to know.

 

[chenjesu]

It makes sense in the context of, if you're charging for more than one, it lets you get out quickly to defend. But, if you only hold it for one, it's easily punishable. It prevents people from spam tapping B for 1 each time, but it also prevents being punished for holding it down longer.

 

[bubbaking]

I agree with chenjesu on this one. The 'fastest way to charge' is a side benefit that occurred because of Synthesis' intended functional mechanics, kinda like how wavedashing was known about (and wasn't a glitch) but its widespread usage was never predicted. That's probably a bad analogy, but the bottom line is that Synthesis doesn't need to be fixed because of what chenjesu said.

 

[leelue]

If there was
A) A tiny delay on the first instance of healing
B) A faster rate of healing after the first instance (balanced)
C) A tweaking on the endlag
D) Any combination of the above
You could achieve the same intended goal without this wonky side-effect

 

[bubbaking]

Everything except C could work. How would you tweak the endlag?

 

[leelue]

By making it longer? If it took longer, then the process of coming in and out of the move would take longer in a stretch than just holding the move constantly.

 

[JOE!]

I actually discovered that tapping it is slightly faster than even the delay:

Synthesis takes 7 frames to activate, takes 2 frames to heal, and 10 frames to end.

After the 2 frames, holding down the input will continue on until 36 frames pass, healing again and continuing on and on. This will heal you 1.5% per second.

Tapping the input for 1 heal, stopping, then tapping again will net you about 1.8% per second, about 30% faster!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You should put it in a video. I can't get it to work that way.

 

[bubbaking]

By making it longer? If it took longer, then the process of coming in and out of the move would take longer in a stretch than just holding the move constantly.

That's the problem! If you do this, then you don't get the "same intended goal" which was:

It makes sense in the context of, if you're charging for more than one, it lets you get out quickly to defend. But, if you only hold it for one, it's easily punishable. It prevents people from spam tapping B for 1 each time, but it also prevents being punished for holding it down longer.

You replied to my post which was replying to this. If you lengthen the endlag, that totally ruins what's being said here. Your two other options work, however.

 

[leelue]

How many frames would it take to eliminate this oddity? Do you think it's enough to eliminate what is assumed to be the intended functionality of the endlag?