Create your DLC likeliness chart!

[ATH_]

lol, really? That's a bit of understatement of the Layton community.

Might be? I suppose I'm in no perspective to judge so, I'll retract that.
I personally do feel that the BD lovers are pretty big.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Might be? I suppose I'm in no perspective to judge so, I'll retract that.
I personally do feel that the BD lovers are pretty big.

But bigger than Layton series fans?

That's a pretty bold statement.

 

[ATH_]

But bigger than Layton series fans?

That's a pretty bold statement.

Maybe, possibly, but we can't know for sure.

As said I retract the statement, it was just a gut feeling at that time really. I haven't met too many people into Layton. It's possible too that it comes from me personally feeling that people who play BD tend to like it a lot, versus times where friends have played Layton and not liked it too much.

I myself am a Layton fan though, and a BD fan. ^^

 

[Leafeon523]

and come from GBA games at first, even though I admit that they're more of variations than actual new characters. And for the GameCube, don't forget the protagonist of everyone's favourite GC-native series (also first appeared on a GameCube game)
Just sayin'

I had been referring to newcomers in smash 4 that first appeared in the GC/gba era. While Olimar, Lucas, Ike, Zss, and Toon link all appeared in ssb4, they were brawl veterans.

Now that you mention it though, Zss is the only Gameboy advance character that we have in ssb4. I know the pool of characters introduced there isn't gigantic, but there are still quite a few that could be added. (Isaac, Marshal, Andy, and Sceptile come to mind)

 

[Diddy Kong]

Isaac is the best character for the GBA era I feel. Lucas was also a GBA character btw.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Hey @ BluePikmin11

I'm curious...


Why on earth are you putting Layton on the same level as Agnes?

Layton is from a successful franchise that has been around for years and has had almost ten titles having a crossover with another gentleman of the same caliber.

Agnes is from one title who just got confirmation of a sequel.

What gives?

Agnes is not at the same level as Layton, but she and her relevant, recent, popular franchise definitely has somewhat of a big fanbase, there are people who are already hyped for the sequel now, with Agnes returning as a guide this time for the new main characters. I say she has somewhat of a shot, but it's not at the same as Layton.
If more third-parties got confirmed as DLC, I would list the likeliness for these characters in this order:
Layton
Agnes
Bayonetta
Monster Hunter
Rayman
Snake

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, you have two points there, but being a cut AT can mean other things such as being low priority in the AT list, making Isaac still an uncertainty. Golden Sun may have had a recently released game, but it didn't reach the expectations Camelot and Nintendo had hoped for, thus would make him relatively low in priority with an improbable future.

Well, let's look at it like this... perhaps Nintendo and Camelot were indeed disappointed with the expectations, but that doesn't mean Golden Sun needs to be wiped off of the face of the earth, even though we don't exactly know what the future will hold. There also was the possibility that Isaac was considered at one point (whether or not this is true, we'll never know), but was considered a low priority in lieu of popular characters in Japan that could easily be cloned from other fighters, like Lucina and Dark Pit, due to the fact that he had a healthy amount of demand, but not large enough to justify devoting resources to him (although that fails to explain why Golden Sun didn't get any trophies in the 3DS version). And, a character like Shulk might have taken all of the resources left for the remaining fighters during their tight developmental window. Then, there's the matter of the AT... I know the two of us got in an argument when I commented on how Helirin was not worth bringing back as the probable reason why they didn't port that AT, but more people were gonna comment about Isaac being removed than Helirin anyway. I would've at least liked an explination from Sakurai, even though that will never happen.

Also, BluePikmin, I know you hated the "Brash for DLC!" jokes, and I thought they were pretty lame myself, but I think the whole point was to criticize the idea that "Franchise has a remake or a port, therefore new character must come from this franchise for Smash DLC!", and also "Sexy = Good Contender". I mean, let's have Bikini Fiora as an alternate costume for her! And, while we are at it, let's finally bring Young Link back, even though Toon Link has firmly been established as the spiritual successor to Young Link and represents a different approach to the Zelda franchise.

I don't want to be that guy, but I would also have to argue that sometimes, when it comes to female characters, demand can be skewered primarily due to appearance. This is especially true for Tharja and Krystal, one who was cut from the trophy list because of her outfit, and the other who is a popular depiction in certain circles that love anthromorphic characters. This is not me saying that all of their supports like those two for those reasons, but it's merely a reflection that ALL potential DLC characters are controversial. We have to weigh all of the pros and cons, in addition to viewing the criteria from a business perspective because if Nintendo is gonna do DLC, they want to maximize the profit margin. In this model, you may not need to have a recent game, or a blockbuster legacy, to be promoted. In fact, I might as well look back at all my choices and point out my list of pros and cons for each of them.

Now, I do agree with Fiora having a shot at being a DLC character due to the fact that Xenoblade is getting a port, and I would prefer her way more than Melia (if Melia is put in over Fiora, fanservice triumphs over significance yet again). But, even though I'll never play Xenoblade (console RPGs bore the heck out of me... my poor copy of Skies of Arcadia hasn't been played in years after I got tired of it, and I'm a Ham & Egger Gamer, and I'm not gonna shell out $50 for a copy because that is most of the time out of my price range), I think Fiora has a better opportunity because Fiora has more potential than Melia. Would people gripe about Xenoblade getting a second rep? Of course, but I think that you won't get a Dark Pit situation because Fiora (assuming it's Mecha-Fiora, obviously) will be unlike anybody in Smash Bros. history.

As for the Young Link discussion, I think DLC should incorporate Majora's Mask for the 3DS version. The Great Bay stage from Melee should return, and new trophies of Young Link, the Happy Mask Salesman, Link's alternate forms, and maybe one of the game's bosses should be brought to that version. However, I don't think it's feasible to promote Young Link returning because we already have a version of that character in Toon Link.

Now, two more topics:

• On the subject of Pokemon: You can't go wrong with more Pokemon entries, but you can see why people get burned out from multiple Pokemon characters when other franchises struggle to get newcomers, though it must be noted that Pokemon has had the most turnover in Smash history (dropped Pichu and Mewtwo from Brawl, and the Pokemon Trainer was simplified to just Charizard in 3DS/Wii U... this isn't mentioning all of the additions and subtractions from the Poke Ball summons). My issue is that people from Pokemon should be focused more in Smash, because the human trainers pull the story just as much as the Pokemon do. That's why I was hoping for an Essentia reference in this version as being the replacement for Gray Fox as a human Pokemon AT.
• On the subject of third party contenders: I still stand by Rayman being the best choice, with Bayonetta being a probably #2. But, third-party contenders also have to go by a very strict guideline as far as choices go. I mentioned this in detail on the Rayman support thread, but my main criteria is that the character is the most recognizable (or very recognizable) from their company, they are easy to recognize, they mattered in video game sales, and they can be unique to warrant time and resources in development due to the fact that you're not gonna clone a third-party fighter from an existing one. While Professor Layton and Bravely Default are going to get their supporters, I view Rayman as the most likely simply because the group that works on Rayman as part of Ubisoft would provide the most resources in developing Rayman, and this can also go with Platinum Games and Bayonetta, but in her case, she must prove that her games provided an X factor in terms of motivating Wii U sales.

So, there we go.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Well, let's look at it like this... perhaps Nintendo and Camelot were indeed disappointed with the expectations, but that doesn't mean Golden Sun needs to be wiped off of the face of the earth, even though we don't exactly know what the future will hold.

Yes, it doesn't mean it will shoved off completely, but it makes for an uncertain future for the franchise until a new game is announced. Which would likely lead Sakurai to making him very low priority.

There also was the possibility that Isaac was considered at one point (whether or not this is true, we'll never know), but was considered a low priority in lieu of popular characters in Japan that could easily be cloned from other fighters, like Lucina and Dark Pit, due to the fact that he had a healthy amount of demand, but not large enough to justify devoting resources to him (although that fails to explain why Golden Sun didn't get any trophies in the 3DS version). And, a character like Shulk might have taken all of the resources left for the remaining fighters during their tight developmental window.

I'm sure every character was considered at one point, and based on his criteria, he probably wasn't planned to be in the game at all.

Then, there's the matter of the AT... I know the two of us got in an argument when I commented on how Helirin was not worth bringing back as the probable reason why they didn't port that AT, but more people were gonna comment about Isaac being removed than Helirin anyway. I would've at least liked an explanation from Sakurai, even though that will never happen.

There had to at least one of the three reasons, time constraints, 3DS technical limitations, and/or being low priority in the due to their irrelevance.

Also, BluePikmin, I know you hated the "Brash for DLC!" jokes, and I thought they were pretty lame myself, but I think the whole point was to criticize the idea that "Franchise has a remake or a port, therefore new character must come from this franchise for Smash DLC!", and also "Sexy = Good Contender". I mean, let's have Bikini Fiora as an alternate costume for her! And, while we are at it, let's finally bring Young Link back, even though Toon Link has firmly been established as the spiritual successor to Young Link and represents a different approach to the Zelda franchise.

I don't want to be that guy, but I would also have to argue that sometimes, when it comes to female characters, demand can be skewered primarily due to appearance. This is especially true for Tharja and Krystal, one who was cut from the trophy list because of her outfit, and the other who is a popular depiction in certain circles that love anthromorphic characters. This is not me saying that all of their supports like those two for those reasons, but it's merely a reflection that ALL potential DLC characters are controversial. We have to weigh all of the pros and cons, in addition to viewing the criteria from a business perspective because if Nintendo is gonna do DLC, they want to maximize the profit margin.

I'm well aware of the demand because of their appearances, but I personally think it wouldn't affect anything unless it went very controversial with something like making Nintendog playable. I'm not being delusional saying that a new games starring the character means it will likely happen, but it does give them a slight boost in being considered and overcoming the relevance criteria that many popular newcomers fail to pass.

In this model, you may not need to have a recent game, or a blockbuster legacy, to be promoted.

So were just going to ignore the "having no future" "relevance" criteria Sakurai flat-out said was a vitally important factor, which is likely to carry on with DLC?

Now, I do agree with Fiora having a shot at being a DLC character due to the fact that Xenoblade is getting a port, and I would prefer her way more than Melia (if Melia is put in over Fiora, fanservice triumphs over significance yet again). I think Fiora has a better opportunity because Fiora has more potential than Melia.

Both characters already have uniqueness, it really comes down what Sakurai think would be most important, the character with a large fanbase (Melia) or the character who si important to the plot of Xenoblade (Fiora). In this case, I personally think demand is the triumphing factor with side-character inclusions like Dark Pit and Lucina. (Lucina arguably being added mostly because of the huge fanbase.)

As for the Young Link discussion, I think DLC should incorporate Majora's Mask for the 3DS version. The Great Bay stage from Melee should return, and new trophies of Young Link, the Happy Mask Salesman, Link's alternate forms, and maybe one of the game's bosses should be brought to that version. However, I don't think it's feasible to promote Young Link returning because we already have a version of that character in Toon Link.

It is feasible to a small degree, especially if Sakurai wants to bring back every veteran who was playable previously in past Smash games or if he wants to any last minute clones to fully utilize development time.

My issue is that people from Pokemon should be focused more in Smash, because the human trainers pull the story just as much as the Pokemon do. That's why I was hoping for an Essentia reference in this version as being the replacement for Gray Fox as a human Pokemon AT.

The humans aren't the real appeal for the franchise, it's the Pokemon that are the main attraction. I don't think we'll be seeing those kinds of Pokemon characters anytime soon for that reason.

While Professor Layton and Bravely Default are going to get their supporters, I view Rayman as the most likely simply because the group that works on Rayman as part of Ubisoft would provide the most resources in developing Rayman, and this can also go with Platinum Games and Bayonetta, but in her case, she must prove that her games provided an X factor in terms of motivating Wii U sales. So, there we go.

That's true, but Rayman trophies are only a small amount of resources, that's not really saying much.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Last minute chart before the Direct starts!
Very few changes have been made.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

Last minute chart before the Direct starts!
Very few changes have been made.

Why do you hate the mole? (insert generic meme quote about Muddy Mole here) I know his chances are low,but still, don't mess with this mole.
Who's the purple guy next to Inkling?

 

[BluePikmin11]

I don't, but he is by far the most the obscure (who is popular here in Smashboards) retro candidate that I don't think will be chosen.
The guy next to Inkling is Monster Hunter.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

I don't, but he is by far the most the obscure (who is popular here in Smashboards) retro candidate that I don't think will be chosen.
The guy next to Inkling is Monster Hunter.

How popular is he here?

 

[BluePikmin11]

He's brought up often in pre-Smash speculation. (More than Prince Sable)
People considered him the top of retro candidates with his unique potential as a digging type fighter.

 

[JamesDNaux]

If more third-parties got confirmed as DLC, I would list the likeliness for these characters in this order:
Layton
Agnes
Bayonetta
Monster Hunter
Rayman
Snake

I'm genuinely curious here.

Based on Sakurai's criteria alone, Agnes and Bayo should logically not even be on the radar for possible third party candidates.

How does Snake, a character who has already been in Smash once before fall at the bottom of the list? In fact, as the first third party character ever introduced, and for no reason other than Kojima asking for his inclusion (who has also asked Sakurai again to "please use Snake" for this game, even if not directly), Snake has absolutely no business being anywhere near the bottom.

As I've stated oh so many times before, Snake and Konami being "not close to Nintendo" is nothing more than a fanboy-fantasy that has no base in any actuality. If anything, the fact that we even have an MGS3D theme so recently released so long after the game came out should point to the opposite, Nintendo and Konami are very much still in good relations. But again, the "relationship" between the two companies has been the exact same for many years, and Snake (via amount of games released on Nintendo consoles and ratio of "main series titles" to remakes) is in the same position he was during Brawl's development. Not to mention, again, Sakurai's criteria mentions that a third party only needs one game on Nintendo consoles. I don't know how that can be spelled out any clearer, the man does not care about third parties being "close" to Nintendo, he cares about them being iconic characters across the history of video games. Bayonetta and Agnes only have two games, that is nowhere near being iconic and barely makes a dent in gaming as a whole when compared to multi-million selling franchises which span many titles across many generations of gaming consoles, Nintendo or otherwise. This cannot be stressed enough.

Layton is a character with many games, but his exclusivity to Nintendo's handhelds do not net him any brownie points in the slightest. If you really think that being more associated with Nintendo will help him at all, I again refer to Snake, who got in Brawl over say, Simon Belmont, a fan favorite character who has had far more games on Nintendo consoles, but sadly is nowhere near as big as Snake. Layton is not near iconic to anything, and I'd wager that most people that know him can't even name the company that makes his games. Konami, Sega, Capcom, Namco, Ubisoft, all major players in the game industry that even the most casual of players will have heard of. Bayonetta belongs to Sega, yes, but she is nowhere near Sonic's level, and to even think that for a moment would be laughable. Though it's never been said by Sakurai, I highly doubt a single company will ever get more than their most iconic character in Smash, so Bayonetta and "Monster Hunter" lose out by default.

I have to wonder if everyone is ignoring the fact that Rayman has not one, but three trophies that have no business being there in the game. They already have the rights to use Rayman's likeness, they are selling the game with him in it. If they decide to add more third party characters, they already have one candidate that they will have no issues procuring, as Sakurai has said that dealing with even second parties can be difficult, having a third party character with no difficulties is a godsend. Rayman being the mascot of Ubisoft, a company that's one of the largest in the industry, and Rayman himself being an iconic character, his franchise has sales that rival Mega Man's, with less games. It's even his 20th anniversary this year, which makes him barely younger than Sonic, so he's definitely a veteran icon of the gaming industry. He's certainly "deserving."

Sorry for the mini rant, but some people have very skewed ideals. But support whoever you want, but all means.
I'm certainly not trying to attack any of the mentioned characters or their supporters, I'm sure they would all make wonderful candidates for Smash.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I am assuming that more third-party will be given consideration, and considering that Sakurai would most likely consider characters from popular 3rd party franchises who had a recently released game, it's one of the main reasons why Snake is the lowest in likeliness. Being a veteran wouldn't really change anything unless Sakurai wants every Smash veteran back as DLC, which is somewhat unlikely.

 

[JamesDNaux]

I am assuming that more third-party will be given consideration, and considering that Sakurai would most likely consider characters from popular 3rd party franchises who had a recently released game, it's one of the main reasons why Snake is the lowest in likeliness. Being a veteran wouldn't really change anything unless Sakurai wants every Smash veteran back as DLC, which is somewhat unlikely.

Hello Sakurai...

It's one thing for people to shove recency down our throats for every other Smash character, but are you seriously trying to include third party characters under the same criteria as regular Nintendo characters? These characters are not owned by Nintendo, the entire point of third party characters is that they are not Nintendo. Sakurai does not care if they have had new games.

Besides that point, Snake has a major game releasing this year.

"Oh, but it isn't coming out on Nintendo consoles."

Hello, Metal Gear Solid 4, for PS3 but not the Wii. Oh wait, what's that? Snake was in Brawl anyway? You don't say!

Besides the absolute fallacy of rating third parties by normal character criteria, even if recency had anything to do with it...

Completely based on his arcade self. Got a stage from an incredibly old and obscure game. Newest game has absolutely no acknowledgement in Smash whatsoever. Not to mention all of the arcade Namco things that came along with him.

Ooh, he got a stage from his newest Nintendo exclusive title! But do you seriously think that's why he's here?

Do I even need to?

Snake's veteran status does nothing but help him. You think he's not going to get in because he's not "fresh and new?" No character in the game plays anything like him. Besides, he got in on a request in the first place. Sakurai doesn't care what detractors think, if he wants to bring Snake back, he's going to bring Snake back. There's no likeliness about it.

 

[False Sense]

I am assuming that more third-party will be given consideration, and considering that Sakurai would most likely consider characters from popular 3rd party franchises who had a recently released game, it's one of the main reasons why Snake is the lowest in likeliness. Being a veteran wouldn't really change anything unless Sakurai wants every Smash veteran back as DLC, which is somewhat unlikely.

There's two things I find off about this idea:

1.) This is assuming that Sakurai is almost completely discarding his previous criteria for adding in third party characters (he's explicitly stated he won't just add any character from other companies, unless they're "in a class of their own"), and is now willing to add third party characters who have only appeared in very few games and only in recent years.

2.) So Snake returning is less likely than Bayonetta being added because of recency? Wasn't the last Metal Gear game on the 3DS released in 2012? That's still plenty relevant.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Not seriously, just assuming, because it's something I could see happening.
All three examples are the biggest icons in video gaming, it's easy to see as to why they are on the base game.
I didn't say he wasn't flat-out going to be in, but he'd probably be one of the least prioritized characters looking at it from a new marketing perspective.

 

[JamesDNaux]

All three examples are the biggest icons in video gaming, it's easy to see as to why they are on the base game

Pac-Man and Sonic are some of the biggest icons of gaming.

If you're going to include Mega Man in that and not include Snake, then you are either showing clear ignorance or bias.

The Metal Gear franchise is larger and has more sales than the Mega Man franchise.
The Metal Gear franchise is also older than Mega Man, and is still ongoing in comparison.
Snake as a character is logically more well known than Mega Man, as his games have spawned various consoles in comparison to the majority of Mega Man's games being Nintendo exclusive in the beginning.

Hell, if you're going to call Mega Man an icon of gaming, then Rayman may as well be included because they aren't far apart.

I didn't say he wasn't flat-out going to be in, but he'd probably be one of the least prioritized characters looking at it from a new marketing perspective.

Logically, Snake would have more marketing potential because veterans have more exposure among the Smash fanbase.

 

[Leafeon523]

Do I even need to?

There was that appearance in Street Fighter x Tekken, but I'm going to pretend that never happened. *shudders*

 

[BKupa666]

My chart:

All the characters shown in games in tomorrow's Direct: 100%
Everyone else: 0%

Call it a hunch.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

3rd party characters should be extremely popular and iconic, and by extremely iconic I mean to the point where a significant number of none gamers know who they are. Being around for decades certainly doesn't hurt. I think it should be noted that the reason why "Monster Hunter" wasn't added to Marvel vs. Capcom 3 was because the producer of the Monster Hunter series was against the idea, he said he didn't find him to be a good fit, supposedly due to the fact that he's a malleable character.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

My chart:

All the characters shown in games in tomorrow's Direct: 100%
Everyone else: 0%

Call it a hunch.

Well what games are there and who will be shown?

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

*Looks at this thread for the first time*
*Reads the OP*

So I'm going to post my own expectation chart:

> S tier:
Captain Toad

> A tier:
Wolf

> B tier:
Inkling

> C tier:
Dixie Kong
Marshal/Chorus Kids/whatever from Rhythm Heaven
Rayman

> D tier:
Bandana Dee
Bayonetta
Chibi-Robo
Impa
Isaac
King K. Rool
Magician Mii Fighter
Solid Snake
Wonder Red

> E tier:
Ivysaur
Lucas
Pichu
Roy (Fire Emblem)
Squirtle
Tetris Block
Young Link

> F tier:
Banjo Kazooie
Globox
Ice Climbers
Krystal*
Sceptile
Tails, Knuckles, Amy Rose, etc.
*Due to her trophy being unlocked through a challange on the Wii U version, it looks like she's pretty much deconfirmed imo, otherwise she would have been a D

> E tier:
Ivysaur
Lucas
Pichu
Roy (Fire Emblem)
Squirtle
Tetris Block
Young Link

Tetris Block

Tetris Block

Tetris Block

...
So I found a picture relevant to this.

It would be kind of cool to see Tetris represented more in Smash, but in all honesty, I don't think the series will really ever get a character in. Probably for obvious reasons.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If more third-parties got confirmed as DLC, I would list the likeliness for these characters in this order:
Layton
Agnes
Bayonetta
Monster Hunter
Rayman
Snake

 

[BluePikmin11]

3rd party characters should be extremely popular and iconic, and by extremely iconic I mean to the point where a significant number of none gamers know who they are. Being around for decades certainly doesn't hurt. I think it should be noted that the reason why "Monster Hunter" wasn't added to Marvel vs. Capcom 3 was because the producer of the Monster Hunter series was against the idea, he said he didn't find him to be a good fit, supposedly due to the fact that he's a malleable character.

He probably didn't find it fitting in the type of fighting game MvC3 is. However Smash is different, and he can fit in relatively well there.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

He probably didn't find it fitting in the type of fighting game MvC3 is. However Smash is different, and he can fit in relatively well there.

How would a character like the "Monster Hunter" fit better in Smash than he would in MVC? What logic are you using here? Anyway, waiting for you to add the new Fire Emblem girl high on your list and for you to put Young Link up higher.

 

[BluePikmin11]

You'll see eventually, do we have a recap of everything in the direct so far to consider for the charts here?

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, it doesn't mean it will shoved off completely, but it makes for an uncertain future for the franchise until a new game is announced. Which would likely lead Sakurai to making him very low priority.


I'm sure every character was considered at one point, and based on his criteria, he probably wasn't planned to be in the game at all.


There had to at least one of the three reasons, time constraints, 3DS technical limitations, and/or being low priority in the due to their irrelevance.

Valid point, but I must warn you that what I'm about to say next is based on emotion.

A part of me (well, a large part) just gets so frustrated when I talk to you about Isaac, because not only do you not say anything good about him, but in spite of you wanting people to comment in detail as to why they feel that a character should or should not make it in, when people make suggestions about people low on your tier list, you just tell them "not gonna happen, don't waste your time". I think you have it out specifically against Isaac, and when somebody makes fun of characters higher on that list, you get upset. We all have our opinions, but I don't think you respect the ones you don't agree with at all.

Okay, now that I got the emotion out, lemme go back to reason.

If Isaac was "irrelevant", why was he removed in lieu of even more obscure characters like the Sheriff? I mean, I know Sheriff was Nintendo's first arcade game, but the last time that made an appearance was WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$... and in that playable version, it's not even as the real Sheriff. To me, he passed the first two criteria (one of the simpliest ATs), but to you, he flunked the last one. Therfore, he deserved to be cut.

I'm well aware of the demand because of their appearances, but I personally think it wouldn't affect anything unless it went very controversial with something like making Nintendog playable. I'm not being delusional saying that a new games starring the character means it will likely happen, but it does give them a slight boost in being considered and overcoming the relevance criteria that many popular newcomers fail to pass.

And yet you fail to acknowledge that Tharja was cut from the trophy list. How on Earth she could be put into Super Smash bros. unless they modified her attire significantly, at which point some of her fans would decry "censorship"?

So were just going to ignore the "having no future" "relevance" criteria Sakurai flat-out said was a vitally important factor, which is likely to carry on with DLC?

Yeah, because Super Smash Bros. has always been about promoting Nintendo's future, not the past. If you don't have a future, you deserve to wallow in obscurity because you are nothing but a failed franchise.

Even though Sakurai has also proved he can be a megalomaniac who thinks that casual fans can't think about games that happened before 2011, even he has to admit that, maybe, just maybe, you could grandfather clause a few characters based on demand. I mean, if one or two characters are put in because of demand in lieu or "relevance", I think that would be okay. But, to you, that's one or two characters too many.

Both characters already have uniqueness, it really comes down what Sakurai think would be most important, the character with a large fanbase (Melia) or the character who si important to the plot of Xenoblade (Fiora). In this case, I personally think demand is the triumphing factor with side-character inclusions like Dark Pit and Lucina. (Lucina arguably being added mostly because of the huge fanbase.)

That I agree with, but I still side with Fiora.

It is feasible to a small degree, especially if Sakurai wants to bring back every veteran who was playable previously in past Smash games or if he wants to any last minute clones to fully utilize development time.

And yet the idea of "irrelevant" characters is not feasible in any capacity whatsoever. Also, you can't simply port Melee Young Link into Smash 4, and he has significant differences from Toon Link.

The humans aren't the real appeal for the franchise, it's the Pokemon that are the main attraction. I don't think we'll be seeing those kinds of Pokemon characters anytime soon for that reason.

Yeah, but even though Pokemon are the real appeal, the humans aren't chopped liver. Even a few extra trophies wouldn't hurt. Hell, that one offshoot where Pokemon interact with other Pokemon (Mystery Dungeon) is very controversial.

That's true, but Rayman trophies are only a small amount of resources, that's not really saying much.

Yeah, but there's also the possibility that Rayman's developmental staff would devote all of their resources into building Rayman for Nintendo.

 

[BluePikmin11]

New chart!
100%- Mewtwo
60%- Lucas, Wolf, Dixie Kong
50%- (Can go either way)- Inklings, Chorus Men, Ice Climbers, and 3rd Party characters in general.
25%- Young Link, Deku Link, and Captain Toad
15%- Melia, Fiora, or Xenoblade X character
10% - Bandanna Dee to Hades
5%- Sceptile to Tiki
3%- Monita to K. Rool
1% to 0.01%- Geno to Muddy Mole
I rushed the chart, I'll eventually add a new FE slot for the upcoming sequel, all Awakening characters are removed now due to the announcement.

I'll get back to you eventually, JDogindy.

 

[AEMehr]

New chart!
100%- Mewtwo
60%- Lucas, Wolf, Dixie Kong
50%- (Can go either way)- Inklings, Chorus Men, Ice Climbers, and 3rd Party characters in general.
25%- Young Link, Deku Link, and Captain Toad
15%- Melia, Fiora, or Xenoblade X character
10% - Bandanna Dee to Hades
5%- Sceptile to Tiki
3%- Monita to K. Rool
1% to 0.01%- Geno to Muddy Mole
I rushed the chart, I'll eventually add a new FE slot for the upcoming sequel, all Awakening characters are removed now due to the announcement.

I'll get back to you eventually, JDogindy.

Sure, Anna and Tiki were both in Awakening. But they aren't Awakening characters. They've been in multiple FEs, Anna is probably going to be in the new one too lol.
also i dont understand why muddy is apparently less likely than bubbles who's officially been stated to not even know how to fight so

 

[BluePikmin11]

A part of me (well, a large part) just gets so frustrated when I talk to you about Isaac, because not only do you not say anything good about him, but in spite of you wanting people to comment in detail as to why they feel that a character should or should not make it in, when people make suggestions about people low on your tier list, you just tell them "not gonna happen, don't waste your time".
I think you have it out specifically against Isaac, and when somebody makes fun of characters higher on that list, you get upset. We all have our opinions, but I don't think you respect the ones you don't agree with at all.

I do go in detail and I don't just put "not gonna happen"]
I have no bias with Isaac. (I commented before how I wanted to avoid it as much as possible to speculate properly).
But I admit, I've been a little mean recently with taking speculation more seriously, so I'll try to word it out nicer.

If Isaac was "irrelevant", why was he removed in lieu of even more obscure characters like the Sheriff? I mean, I know Sheriff was Nintendo's first arcade game, but the last time that made an appearance was WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$... and in that playable version, it's not even as the real Sheriff. To me, he passed the first two criteria (one of the simpliest ATs), but to you, he flunked the last one. Therfore, he deserved to be cut.

Perhaps retro characters don't follow the irrelevance criteria, just like how retro characters don't follow that principle in newcomer criteria.

And yet you fail to acknowledge that Tharja was cut from the trophy list. How on Earth she could be put into Super Smash bros. unless they modified her attire significantly, at which point some of her fans would decry "censorship"?

I don't think Tharja is that controversial. She can be put into Smash Bros. with alight redesign if she is a character, but with the sequel coming out, it's pretty clear IS is no longer advertising Awakening now, she's very very unlikely at this point.

Yeah, because Super Smash Bros. has always been about promoting Nintendo's future, not the past. If you don't have a future, you deserve to wallow in obscurity because you are nothing but a failed franchise.

Even though Sakurai has also proved he can be a megalomaniac who thinks that casual fans can't think about games that happened before 2011, even he has to admit that, maybe, just maybe, you could grandfather clause a few characters based on demand. I mean, if one or two characters are put in because of demand in lieu or "relevance", I think that would be okay. But, to you, that's one or two characters too many.

I don't think it's too many personally, but it just seems to be the case based on the newcomers added in the base game. No character from a relatively small, non-retro, unrepresented series has been given a chance, I just stick to the logic.

And yet the idea of "irrelevant" characters is not feasible in any capacity whatsoever. Also, you can't simply port Melee Young Link into Smash 4, and he has significant differences from Toon Link.

You can't port him that's true, but he still would be easy to make because he already has an established move set in Melee that would take less time to make.

Yeah, but there's also the possibility that Rayman's developmental staff would devote all of their resources into building Rayman for Nintendo.

Pretty much any third-party who had the chance to have their character in Smash Bros. would devote all of their resources really. It's all equal terms and there would be no real increase in chance.

 

[Leafeon523]

My chart:

All the characters shown in games in tomorrow's Direct: 100%
Everyone else: 0%

Call it a hunch.

That's certainly not a good hunch for K. Rool.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That's certainly not a good hunch for K. Rool.

Mewtwo deconfirmed.

The dream is dead.

 

[Chandeelure]

Toad = Captain Toad
Blooper = Inkling
Retro DK = Retros in General
Shulk = Xenoblade Newcomer

Opinions?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Toad = Captain Toad
Blooper = Inkling
Retro DK = Retros in General
Shulk = Xenoblade Newcomer



View attachment 35793


Opinions?

I actually agree with most of this...

I think I need to make a new list myself.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

Toad = Captain Toad
Blooper = Inkling
Retro DK = Retros in General
Shulk = Xenoblade Newcomer



View attachment 35793


Opinions?

this is actually pretty good.

 

[Delzethin]

I should make another list, myself. I've changed my stance on a few characters, and I never really explained my reasoning.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Where can I download the newest version of the roster maker?

 

[N3ON]

New chart!
100%- Mewtwo
60%- Lucas, Wolf, Dixie Kong
50%- (Can go either way)- Inklings, Chorus Men, Ice Climbers, and 3rd Party characters in general.
25%- Young Link, Deku Link, and Captain Toad
15%- Melia, Fiora, or Xenoblade X character
10% - Bandanna Dee to Hades
5%- Sceptile to Tiki
3%- Monita to K. Rool
1% to 0.01%- Geno to Muddy Mole
I rushed the chart, I'll eventually add a new FE slot for the upcoming sequel, all Awakening characters are removed now due to the announcement.

I'll get back to you eventually, JDogindy.

It's hard to keep a straight face while looking at that list, isn't it?

Toad = Captain Toad
Blooper = Inkling
Retro DK = Retros in General
Shulk = Xenoblade Newcomer



View attachment 35793


Opinions?

This one's alright though.